You love Classical but Your Children don't respond well

[OregonNative]

I love the Classical learning method. With the exception of a few things we tried. I do not like the copy work aspect so we skipped this. My kids just don't respond well to it. We've have switched around this year to find a good fit with curriculum-and so far so good. My passion for teaching def. lies with Classical and I am finding it difficult to be excited about using a more laid back method:/

Has anyone run into this? Where did you compromise? Did you find a solution.

Edited February 1, 2011 by OregonNative

[boscopup]

Can you give examples of how they "don't respond well"? Copywork may not be the most fun thing in the world, but it has a purpose. My son has no choice in the matter. Not everything about school is going to be fun and exciting. If he responded to it with a bad attitude, I'd want to work on the attitude rather than remove something that is so beneficial to his education.

[kristinannie]

My DS doesn't like working on handwriting, but it is so important that he has to do it. I know in PS, he would have to do things he doesn't like also. It is sometimes harder to force a child to do something that he or she doesn't like when the mommy is the teacher, but (if you really believe in what it is and that it will help your child in the long run) it is sometimes necessary to make them do some stuff they don't like.

 

I would also like some more info about what isn't working for you. I don't think everyone does WTM exactly like the book says. We all tweak a little to make it right for our families. Are your kids resistant because they are challenged and aren't used to it? Do they find some of the material boring?

[forty-two]

I love the Classical learning method. With the exception of a few things we tried. I do not like the copy work aspect so we skipped this. My kids just don't respond well to it. We've have switched around this year to find a good fit with curriculum-and so far so good. My passion for teaching def. lies with Classical and I am finding it difficult to be excited about using a more laid back method:/

Has anyone run into this? Where did you compromise? Did you find a solution.

Even just starting to teach my oldest, I've already run into theory vs practice issues ;). Generally I try to figure out what my main goal is, and what dd's main problem is - so far I've been fortunate in that they aren't diametrically opposed, and I can find a way to make it work for both of us.

 

In your case, if it is the method that you really like, maybe you could switch up the content some, find something that really interests your dc. Also, I've had some success when I talk things up for a while before doing them - especially when I can find a book that shows what I want to do in a positive light. That tends to get dd4 excited about it.

[momto2blessings]

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/charlotte-mason-education/

 

It's an article by Susan W. Bauer comparing Charlotte Mason to Classical. I combine both. There are many similarities. My preference is to focus more on CM by combining www.amblesideonline.com with www.simplycharlottemason.com and I add in progymnastmata for writing (Writing Tales and then Classical Writing). Ambleside is rigorous, yet flexible. They have Kidnapped as 4th grade reading and their high school years are considered college level material. But I tweak and take what I like best from both sites. Just what works for us:) Gina

[OregonNative]

Can you give examples of how they "don't respond well"?

 

like.

I would also like some more info about what isn't working for you. Do they find some of the material boring?

 

Honestly, I think they were completely bored! As I mentioned, the copy work isn't something we were fond of. However, I also didn't care for the narration or dictation in WWE. We switched to WriteShop and my DD likes it SO much better because it's more Creative Writing. FLL was just too redundant with WWE for DS (we switched to WS for him too, but then decided it really wasn't neccessary for 1st grade). I LOVED SOTW. But my kids were bored with Ancient History-espiecally all of the reading-we did split this up into 2-3 days depending on the length of the chapter. We also did activites on the non-reading days.

 

I like the CM idea and have read the books by Catherine Levison. I liked the idea, but couldn't seem to embrace it. It was hard for me to figure out how to "use" it.

 

We have now switched to FIAR for Social Studies, some LA, Art (which we didn't do before) and Science. Unit studies just seemed like a better way to go.

 

This is my 1st year H'schooling and I've tweaked and changed our curriculum 3x. Part of me regrets dropping dropping WWE and SOTW. Part of me regrets dropping HOD. I just felt like there was so much more meat in the method. Classical seems like a very firm foundation for educating my kids. Not that other methods like eclectic, relaxed, etc are not good-I just don't feel comfortable teaching that way. I think this may have a bit to do with not really being able to gauge my children's learning at this point.

 

Switching to FIAR has been a great simiplifier for us, but I don't feel like I'm doing enough-whatever that is:001_huh:

 

Well, that's probably more than you wanted to know. thanks for listening. :001_smile:

Edited January 31, 2011 by OregonNative

[OregonNative]

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/charlotte-mason-education/

 

 

I did stumble upon this article in my early search on teaching methods. And it is wonderful! Reading it makes me regret even more the changes I made:glare:

[TheAutumnOak]

Can you give examples of how they "don't respond well"? Copywork may not be the most fun thing in the world, but it has a purpose. My son has no choice in the matter. Not everything about school is going to be fun and exciting. If he responded to it with a bad attitude, I'd want to work on the attitude rather than remove something that is so beneficial to his education.

 

:iagree:

This makes sense as long as you consider copywork beneficial...

[AngelBee]

I love the Classical learning method. With the exception of a few things we tried. I do not like the copy work aspect so we skipped this. My kids just don't respond well to it. We've have switched around this year to find a good fit with curriculum-and so far so good. My passion for teaching def. lies with Classical and I am finding it difficult to be excited about using a more laid back method:/

Has anyone run into this? Where did you compromise? Did you find a solution.

This has been an issue for us and we present stuff from more of a CM and Waldorf mix. That seems to help.

 

To be honest, it is me. I tend to act "schooly" when doing Classical vs acting like we are on a fun adventure filled journey. :001_huh:

[HollyDay]

My oldest did not respond well to classical either. It is just not for everyone.

[OregonNative]

I tend to act "schooly" when doing Classical vs acting like we are on a fun adventure filled journey. :001_huh:

 

Me too:001_smile:

[AngelBee]

Me too:001_smile:

:grouphug: That is an easy fix though as long s we know that is the problem. :)

[AngelBee]

Like for copywork, start with doing each word in a cookie sheet filled with fine sand.

 

Then have them do their best work on a piece of paper.

 

Get pretty paper or copy off cute copywork sheets. Let them color them or decorate the edges. :)

[prairie rose]

Who says it has to be all or nothing? Use the bits of Charlotte Mason that speak to you, use the bits of any other educational philosophy that speak to you and only use the bits of Classical education that work for you. It even has a name, it's called an "eclectic approach". ;)

 

I also LOVE the idea of Classical education and I would have loved to have been taught this way. I wanted to read classics when I was in middle school but I handed twaddle and told I was too young for the classics. I wanted to study languages and logic and rhetoric but none were offered in my schools (with the exception of the choice of one foreign language in high school). When I read TWTM for the first time, it was like a dream come true for me. As I found out though, my kids are not me.

 

They have different strengths and weaknesses and interests than me. I have one who is "just the facts", he doesn't want to waste time with details when he could be doing something with his hands (woodworking, building, art, creating) I have another who is very unschooly, he's happiest when set free with a set of encyclopedias, some science equipment, some pencils and a notebook. And he probably knows more about science and history than the rest of us put together. My oldest daughter love literature based unit studies. She likes seeing what connections she can find and topics she can explore for reading different books. My younger daughter seems to have a bit of a classical bent to her but she's a bit to young to tell at this point. Does that mean I have each of them studying exactly the way they like all the time? No way, I'm only one person. ;) But when I make assignments I try to be mindful of their learning style. I might let my oldest build a model of something we learned about in history. I might my 2nd oldest loose with an encyclopedia and narrate back to me what he discovered and I might give my daughter a living history book. But that doesn't mean that I don't make them do things sometimes. Just because they don't see the value in it doesn't make it unimportant. Now if I see no value in it, that's a different story :lol: I do still make my oldest write reports sometimes, I do make by encyclopedia devouring son read a novel sometimes and I do make my daughter do math even when she'd rather be reading a book. It's all about finding a balance between, their learning style and your teaching style. Some things in life are hard and boring and just have to be done but I do try to make sure there are at least occasional fun project for each of them sometimes. Just not every project, every time or I would burn out. ;)

 

Oh, BTW, my kids were bored with Ancients as well so for this year I asked them what they wanted to study. They came up with Medieval Times and American history. We are doing American history for school and tossing in bits of Medieval history as we go. Don't be afraid to compromise on say, absolutely chronological history and stand your ground on others ("Yes I know math drills are boring but if you get it done quickly and correctly you can have (small surprise)" I'm not above a little bribery now and then either :lol: )

[Hedgehogs4]

I too would want to know what "respond well" means? Are they resistant to rigor?

 

My kids don't necessarily love copywork, but they do it every day. I try to have them copy something that is interesting to them, something that reinforces what they are already learning. They don't get too much say in what the goals are, but with careful observation, I am able to teach to their learning styles so that they get the "classical education" that they need. It is not delivered to both in the same way. My son hates workbooks. my dd loves them. my ds did much of his grammar and poetry memorization while jumping on a trampoline in our basement and rolling around on the floor. DD listens quietly, then tells me what she has learned when I least expect it, or when her brother makes a mistake.

 

My expectation of them sets the pace. If I expect them to copy a couple of sentences a day to help them improve their spelling, writing, handwriting, and memory (yes, all four goals are accomplished through copywork), then they simply do not get to complain about it, or they can have some more. my objective is to not BURDEN them with too much--it must be on their level. There is a level of rigor and discipline that comes with teaching classically. All (including mom) are better for it, imo.

[OregonNative]

I too would want to know what "respond well" means? Are they resistant to rigor?

 

 

Describe what you mean by rigor. I'm not sure if they are resistant to it:blushing:. By "respond well", I meant tuned out, bored etc.

[boscopup]

Are they really tuned out though, or do they just appear that way? Certainly doing a different history cycle is fine. You can still incorporate classical methods into learning American History or some other history that your children are interested in. You can come back to ancients later. I don't see a problem with doing that. :)

 

My son doesn't always appear to be listening when I read SOTW1, but he actually is listening. He just *looks* like he's tuning out as he plays with colored pencils, having them explode. :glare: Sometimes I need to put a little excitement in my voice when reading, and that helps too. ;) Once we start doing maps and questions, he clearly shows me that he was listening.

 

Being bored with things like copywork and narration... Again, some parts of school are going to be boring. That's ok! I think it's good for kids to learn to do tasks that aren't the most exciting in the world. You don't want them going into the work world thinking that every task they're given will be exciting. My husband is a software developer, and sometimes he has to do documentation, which is VERY boring to most software developers. He still does it with a good attitude though. That's what I want to teach my children. So yes, they have to do copywork and narration. They don't have to be jump up and down happy, but they do have to have a good attitude. If they're huffing and puffing or pouting, they will be corrected for that and possibly get MORE of the boring work. If they do the work with a good attitude, it gets done quickly and we can move on to something more interesting. :) I asked for narrations a few different times today, and now that he's gotten used to doing them every day across different subjects, he does them willingly and with a good attitude. He doesn't have to write the narrations yet, so that does make it easier. He's still learning to come up with narrations, so all he has to do is answer my leading questions, then I say "What's one thing you remember from this passage/chapter?" and I write it down. Easy peasy and only takes a few minutes. We do several per week, and it's just becoming second nature to him. He only got pulled out of school (with a bubbly teacher that made things fun) last month, and I'm NOT bubbly like his teacher was. ;) But he still enjoys homeschool more, probably because he actually IS being challenged.

 

First thing I'd probably look at with your copywork/narration/etc. issue is how much you're giving. Did you ease into it? We started out just doing what was in WWE and that's about it. So it was copywork twice a week and narration twice a week. Then we gradually added in a narration for the SOTW chapter(s) we'd read. Now for handwriting, instead of doing the HWT book, I have him doing copywork I printed out from Startwrite, but I only give him at most a couple lines per day. I've even snuck in some dictation via AAS, but shhhh... don't tell him that! :lol: If you don't like the WWE passages, you could always pick your own from stuff you're reading - literature, history, science, etc. I noticed my son was more interested the first week when doing the same book that we were reading aloud at the time. I got the instructor text recently and might try doing my own passages next year (for level 2).

 

Also, I break things up and try to do something interesting, something boring, something interesting, something boring, etc. So we start with math (interesting), then do grammar (boring, but oral, so it's quick), then do reading (interesting) with a narration (boring). Later in the day, we do WWE (boring), Bible lesson (interesting), handwriting (boring), SOTW reading (somewhat interesting and somewhat boring, depending on the topic), maybe some map work (interesting), a narration (boring), and then we hit spelling (interesting when working with tiles, boring when working on paper). See how I alternated everything? And yes, it's "schooly", but I'm fine with that. Afterall, it IS school. :D

 

Occasionally, we've had pouting about not wanting to do something, and that has been nipped in the bud very quickly. That's happening less and less, as I just don't allow it to continue. The way I break things up, as outlined above, has helped immensely though. I usually don't get complaints, since he knows that some interesting thing will get done next.

[momto2blessings]

I did stumble upon this article in my early search on teaching methods. And it is wonderful! Reading it makes me regret even more the changes I made:glare:

 

It's so challenging being a homeschool mom. The internet is a gift/curse with all the ideas we can so easily access. I read CM ideas early on and loved them, but felt the need to use a boxed curriculum to stay on track---regret not being more relaxed in the early years. It's hard to wrap your mind around CM ideas and have a plan when new, and I wasn't aware at the time of CM curriculums. And even now I have friends who do more strictly classical and I doubt myself sometimes----are my kids o.k. not memorizing as many facts as they are, etc.? We can't do everything and I think just need to cut ourselves a break sometimes and move forward with what we think is best! Blessings, Gina

[Mommamia]

I can relate to your homeschool journey....we started with HOD, then went full classical, back to HOD. I finally realized that I could pick and choose. We are eclectic classical relaxed workbook learners.

 

Could you continue with FIAR and add in your favorite pieces of the classical approach?

 

We don't do copywork, but we do dictation(my own). I tweak WWE to work for us. I actually tweak everything to work for us. It took me until our 3rd year of homeschooling to realize that you have to do what is best for your family. That is one of the greates things about homeschooling. I hope this helps!

[birchbark]

I consider Charlotte Mason as "child-friendly" classical ed.

[IsabelC]

I also LOVE the idea of Classical education and I would have loved to have been taught this way. I wanted to read classics when I was in middle school but I handed twaddle and told I was too young for the classics. I wanted to study languages and logic and rhetoric but none were offered in my schools (with the exception of the choice of one foreign language in high school). When I read TWTM for the first time, it was like a dream come true for me. As I found out though, my kids are not me.

That's me too. I would have given almost anything to be allowed to stay home and do TWTM with my mother. But my kids don't learn like I did at all (well the elder two don't, not sure about the 2yo as yet), so we've ended up more eclectic/tidal than classical, but with a big TWTM influence.

[....]

I have the flu, so I hope I make sense...

 

I feel like I've posted this too many times now (people are probably tired of hearing it) - lol. We follow the sequence described in TWTM, the Trivium and we follow the reading/writing/LA suggestions also.

 

However, two of my kids need massive hands-on schoolwork. They need unit studies and projects. We also do a lot of Charlotte Mason stuff, too. My son has completely melted down with lined paper in front of him, but he can design his own circuit projects with snap circuits.

 

Some kids are just wired differently. Have you looked at Oak Meadow? I love their middle school. Maybe your family needs a different approach. I also like Core Knowledge Sequence - you could twist those into unit studies.

[Hedgehogs4]

Describe what you mean by rigor. I'm not sure if they are resistant to it:blushing:. By "respond well", I meant tuned out, bored etc.

 

:001_smile: by rigor I mean demanding, challenging...as in rigorous exercise.

 

i think that as classical educators, we see the lists of things that need to be covered, and get the feeling that we have to do it all. However, I am learning how to make this classical thing very fun. We incorporate disciplines by doing lapbooks, for instance. When we are working on a lapbook, I am always amazed at how much reading, narration, copywork and original writing takes place without them even noticing. They are so focused on the cool little books that they forget they are doing hard work. I think it helps if they own it. I have to be careful not to get too "teach-y" or my kids also immediately tune out. I have to have them constantly involved in the process, have short lessons, supply multiple types of input.

[Lovedtodeath]

I love the Classical learning method. With the exception of a few things we tried. I do not like the copy work aspect so we skipped this. My kids just don't respond well to it. We've have switched around this year to find a good fit with curriculum-and so far so good. My passion for teaching def. lies with Classical and I am finding it difficult to be excited about using a more laid back method:/

Has anyone run into this? Where did you compromise? Did you find a solution.

I am not sure what you mean about a more laid back method... but I am finding that Heart of Dakota and Phonics Road teach the same things in much the same way... but are easier for us to complete, time-wise.

 

We still usually don't follow schedules. We generally have one big dictation assignment per week. Science and history are once or twice per week. We are doing read alouds, etc. We only read 2-5 pages in history or science, or we will have an experiment or project. Read alouds are 5-10 pages per day. It may not be much, but we are at least doing the subjects. We are using meaningful literature and projects and remembering more because there is less to cram in.

 

Yes, she was very resistant to dictation. Cried. Tough cookies. It is the best way I know how to teach. It improves writing, memory, spelling, grammar... but we can take it slow and not do it everyday. And we can tell our kids that we know it is hard and we are so proud of them for getting it down. And you know what? She was so proud too.

 

Another thing is that if you re-read TWTM and see what Jessie and Susan say... If you look at what Susan says about writing (3-5 sentences per day total for a 9 year old) and you look at the time schedules set out in TWTM it isn't meant to be as rigorous as people think or let on. Yes it teaches a lot and it teaches it well, but there are ways of doing TWTM Classical method that aren't as rigorous and time consuming.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/schedules/

 

 

(start watching at 6:10 for this particular topic)

 

 

 

HTH!

Edited February 1, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[dhudson]

 

This is my 1st year H'schooling and I've tweaked and changed our curriculum 3x. Part of me regrets dropping dropping WWE and SOTW. Part of me regrets dropping HOD. I just felt like there was so much more meat in the method. Classical seems like a very firm foundation for educating my kids. Not that other methods like eclectic, relaxed, etc are not good-I just don't feel comfortable teaching that way. I think this may have a bit to do with not really being able to gauge my children's learning at this point.

 

Switching to FIAR has been a great simiplifier for us, but I don't feel like I'm doing enough-whatever that is:001_huh:

 

:001_smile:

 

This is your first year home schooling? I think that's more of the issue than the curriculum. Don't switch again this year. You've barely had time to get used to homeschooling let alone to know what works.

 

I assume your children have been in a traditional school? The switch to homeschooling alone will take a year. Your kids don't know what to do in a homeschooling atmosphere, so any curriculum may appear to not be working. Home schooling seems like more freedom and yet the kids aren't used to Mom being Mom and their teacher. Mom isn't used to being Mom and their teacher. It requires some time to get used to that and the new schedule and kids are going to see how far they can test Mom. Are your children whining and complaining about what you are having them do? Would they do that in a traditional school? Probably not, don't allow it at home. I would work on schedule and structure this year and then pick a curriculum and stick with it next year. Don't change anything else this year. Focus on making sure their math and LA are where they need to be and setting the boundaries and limits you wants for your homeschool.

 

It will be okay, just give yourselves a year to adjust to the new regime.:001_smile:

[Lovedtodeath]

This is your first year home schooling? I think that's more of the issue than the curriculum. Don't switch again this year. You've barely had time to get used to homeschooling let alone to know what works.

 

I assume your children have been in a traditional school? The switch to homeschooling alone will take a year. Your kids don't know what to do in a homeschooling atmosphere, so any curriculum may appear to not be working.

:iagree:Good call, Dawn. I missed that. It has taken us 4 years to really get comfortable. :)

[5LittleMonkeys]

I completely agree with Dawn. My first year we switched programs too often because nothing seemed to be working the way I had imagined it would. They were all excellent programs too...all recommendations from WTM. The problem I was having was that my dc were ps lazy. They just wanted to be handed worksheets and texts that required no real thinking on their part. The programs I was trying to use required them to actually think and they just weren't used to doing that. I wish I had stuck with one thing and persevered because then I wouldn't have had to spend the first part of this year re-training their lazy brains.

 

That said, I also agree with others (starrbuck12 comes to mind) about taking those aspects of a classical education and molding them into something you and your dc find engaging. I just got finished writing the first several weeks of a unit based study for the rest of the year for dd8. The theme is botany but it includes copywork, narration, dictation, literature, reading, spelling, vocabulary, science (obviously), history, geography...all the skills talked about in WTM but in a nice little package that we are calling her Nature Journal. Yesterday for example we read from Apologia Botany and answered questions about what she had learned (picking out the main topic of a passage), then she decorated the front of her journal. Then we read a book from the library about a naturalist and she narrated the story back to me (I gave her WWE style prompts), I then dictated two of her sentences which she wrote down in her journal along with a sketch of a flower. We also discussed geography at this time because the book discussed the man travelling to different parts of the US in search of new plants. We got out the atlas and I showed her how during this time the only states were those on the east coast and we talked about how a lot of these people hadn't even been past the Mississippi. After that we read a poem about a specific flower and I gave her copywork (which she wrote in her journal along with a picture of the flower she had cut from a magazine) from that poem. We then used that copywork to discuss the use of adjectives. We then used vocabulary words from Apologia to play a spelling game. Then she dictated her own sentence to me about what a nature journal is for and we played around with different ways to arrange the sentence to make it sound better; we also changed it into a question and an exclamatory sentence just for fun. Even after all the writing she had done, she insisted on writing her sentence in her journal too.

 

So, I was really pleased with how many skills and content we were able to cover in a relatively short amount of time AND she loved it. The time flew by for both of us because we were completely engaged in the topic. She didn't know she was doing copywork, narration and dictation and she actually did double the work she would have done had we done it the old way (switching from book to book, treating each skill as its own subject).

 

Gosh that got long and I don't even know if that is something that would even appeal to you but there are resources out there that are set up similar to what I have done. Trail Guide to Learning has something like this for Am. History that you might want to look into.