Is it Legal for Human Resources....

[dands]

My husband works at the hospital and is the only provider in our house.

This lady at his job got jumped by a stranger 2 weeks ago and slashed her face pretty badly.

 

Today Human Resources pressured everyone to donate 8 hrs or more of everybodys vacation hours which my husband did so. When i heard of it i just flipped. This is pressured charity and is not at all whole hearted charity when being forced. I know that what she is going through is awful but i would like to be able to decide for my self how much and which way i want to give. My husband did not feel good about it and felt much worse when he told me he had done it.

 

The hours my husband is saving where for the new baby that is coming this summer and i also need him to take time away from work so that i can go to my appointments.

 

So what do you think, is this right, legal?

[v-girl]

They can't force him to do it. That would be illegal.

[HRAAB]

Maybe I'm a little slow, but how does your dh giving up his vacation time help the lady who was attacked???

[dands]

what my husband makes an hour, she would get it x8 as check from the hospital as if she worked for it or earned it somehow.

[Joanne]

Requesting is legal. Requiring is not.

 

I do agree that "forced" charity is an oxymoron.

 

{{hugs}} I understand you needed the vacation time for your *own* family.

[HRAAB]

what my husband makes an hour, she would get it x8 as check from the hospital as if she worked for it or earned it somehow.

 

Ahh! Asking is one thing. Pressuring is not okay. They certainly can't require it. I wonder if everyone gave up some vacation time. It would be awfully hard to be the only one who didn't. I guess if my dh had plenty of time, I wouldn't mind. It's a nice thing to do. But with expecting a baby, I'm not sure I'd be real happy about it.

[sbgrace]

They can't force him to do it. What do you mean by pressure--social pressure/expectation. :grouphug: From your husband's perspective even though he could have legally said no it may have been really hard to do that if he would have been the only one to refuse to give up time. I don't think I could have!

 

I have seen that sort of thing before. In fact, it happened in a work place I was in prior to my kids. I think the idea is she can have the time off she needs for recovery paid because everyone donates a day of their vacation?

[Dolphin]

You should at least have your husband ask VERY PUBLICLY, for the hospital to match all the donated hours that they asked their employees to donate.

[Parrothead]

what my husband makes an hour, she would get it x8 as check from the hospital as if she worked for it or earned it somehow.

You mean they give her a check instead of the paid time off? That is just wrong.

 

Dh just gave 40 hours to a co-worker undergoing cancer treatment, but what the co-worker gets is paid leave not a check.

[dands]

Yes, the lady is out from hospital recovery, her plans are to move away.

Yes, my husband called it work/staff pressure since everyone grabed a paper to sign immediately. Not sure if everyone donate all 8 hour because no one shared what they signed up for.

[dands]

You should at least have your husband ask VERY PUBLICLY, for the hospital to match all the donated hours that they asked their employees to donate.

 

 

This is a great idea! Too bad no one thought of it at the right time. Tomorrow is pay day.

[angela in ohio]

Yes, the lady is out from hospital recovery, her plans are to move away.

Yes, my husband called it work/staff pressure since everyone grabed a paper to sign immediately. Not sure if everyone donate all 8 hour because no one shared what they signed up for.

 

That doesn't sound illegal or forced at all. Maybe everyone else just really wanted to help. It would be pressure if they implied that his future there was tied to whether he did this or not.

 

Was there more to it than that? if not, it doesn't sound wrong. They can ask; he can say yes or no. Each party has a choice.

[Chocolate Rose]

We have a no solicitation policy where I work. Donating sick or annual leave is totally voluntary.

[Sandy in Indy]

I'd understand that if she needed extra time for recovery. I once donated some days to a fellow teacher whose mother had cancer. She needed to be with her mom and had run out of time. A lot of us did that--but it was willingly and without pressure.

 

To give her hours that's just cash so she can move...I'm not so sure I would have done that especially in your situation.

[kalanamak]

Yes, my husband called it work/staff pressure since everyone grabed a paper to sign immediately. Not sure if everyone donate all 8 hour because no one shared what they signed up for.

 

Sounds more like PEER pressure, than pressure from the hospital. Personally, I'd rather work someplace like that then one where everyone went "ho hum" and back to trying to look busy.

 

:grouphug: Sorry your husband felt pressured. They do this at my work quite a bit, but you sign up via the internal "intranet", and no one else knows what you did. Usually, "time" is donated mostly to keep someone who has a sick relative and they really need to not have to take "unapproved leave" as they'll lose their health insurance.

[OnTheBrink]

The hospital I work for has this program. From what I understand, you can either give to a "bank" of hours set aside for such situations, or you can give to a specific person who has a sudden need.

 

It's handled pretty discretely where I work. The general bank of hours is announced once a year in the employee newsletter, reminding people that it's there, but if someone in our department needs some hours, every one is emailed and given the opportunity to contribute or not. Nothing is ever said aloud and there's certainly not a sign up sheet passed around.

[plansrme]

This can work out to be a very good deal if the employee receiving the donated leave is lower-paid than the employees who donate the leave.

 

I'm sure that had nothing to do with their campaign.

 

Terri

[KidsHappen]

I am not sure I really understand the situation. Is he required to work an extra eight hours, which he will be paid for, to pick up the slack or is he required to work an extra eight hours in which his pay will go to this woman? If it is the first, it is perfectly legal to ask. If it is the second, it is questionable. I suppose that it would be ok to ask for volunteers (as a community service) but not to require him to do it. If the pressure to do it is coming from his co-workers and not the employers though then that is strictly his problem to deal with. It would be the same as if the people at work took up a collection for a co-worker which happens frequently. Perhaps, is it possible that your dh wants to do this but knew that you would not be ok with it and therefore told you he had to do it?

[angela in ohio]

This can work out to be a very good deal if the employee receiving the donated leave is lower-paid than the employees who donate the leave.

 

I'm sure that had nothing to do with their campaign.

 

Terri

 

Actually, OP said that the pay would be at her dh's rate.

[unsinkable]

Yes, the lady is out from hospital recovery, her plans are to move away.

Yes, my husband called it work/staff pressure since everyone grabed a paper to sign immediately. Not sure if everyone donate all 8 hour because no one shared what they signed up for.

 

So, technically, everyone could have put down 1 hour and no one but HR would have known about it?

 

They were asked for 8 hours but not forced to give 8 hours.

[unsinkable]

I'd understand that if she needed extra time for recovery. I once donated some days to a fellow teacher whose mother had cancer. She needed to be with her mom and had run out of time. A lot of us did that--but it was willingly and without pressure.

 

To give her hours that's just cash so she can move...I'm not so sure I would have done that especially in your situation.

 

I don't see the practical working difference between cash and time.

 

Time is money in a job.

 

If she took the time as vacation, she'd get a paycheck. SInce she is leaving the area, she's just taking (essentially) a buy-out of vacation time.

[plansrme]

Actually, OP said that the pay would be at her dh's rate.

 

Yes, but the vast, vast majority do not work like that. While her husband's employer's may be the exception, there are significant adverse tax and payroll implications for structuring it the way she says they do. In fact, if it is structured the way the OP says, her husband probably is, or should be, taxed on the amount he donated. IRS guidelines on leave-sharing programs require that they be leave-sharing, not compensation-sharing. My guess, without doing a lot of research on the subject, is that converting foregone leave to cash and paying the cash to the donee takes the program outside of the leave-sharing rules. If it is not within the leave-sharing guidelines, the donor is taxed on the foregone leave.

 

I don't doubt that this is the way it was explained, but I do doubt that this is the way it is.

 

Terri

[Sherry in OH]

It is legal and there can be a lot of pressure to participate. Just as there is pressure to make payroll deduction donations to the United Way and if you work for a non-profit or educational institution, to the organization itself. My last employer would actually post lists of the names of contributors to try to shame others into compliance. The implication is that if you do not contribute, you are not a good team player which can have repercussions during annual reviews.

[Parrothead]

Yes, the lady is out from hospital recovery, her plans are to move away.

Yes, my husband called it work/staff pressure since everyone grabed a paper to sign immediately. Not sure if everyone donate all 8 hour because no one shared what they signed up for.

Well in that case all your dh had to do was write out "No, I won't be able to participate at present due to the upcoming birth of my newest child. Please consider me for the next emergency leave request."

 

No time loss, no pressure. Your dh put the pressure on himself. Help him think of professional responses to requests like this, extra hours or other things that he needs to say "no" to.

[Mejane]

Sounds more like PEER pressure, than pressure from the hospital.

 

:iagree:It's a nice thing to do if one can afford it. Many can't.

[skyday]

Sorry, I didn't read every reply. I, too, work at a hospital and occasionally we'll get requests like this through our employee newsline. For example, if someone has cancer or for a very sick child. Mainly the only people who give up their PTO (paid time off) are those that have 200+ hours available. It is not mandatory and no one feels pressured about it. It's just put out there in case anyone would like to volunteer to help.

[unsinkable]

My husband works at the hospital and is the only provider in our house.

This lady at his job got jumped by a stranger 2 weeks ago and slashed her face pretty badly.

 

Today Human Resources pressured everyone to donate 8 hrs or more of everybodys vacation hours which my husband did so. When i heard of it i just flipped. This is pressured charity and is not at all whole hearted charity when being forced. I know that what she is going through is awful but i would like to be able to decide for my self how much and which way i want to give. My husband did not feel good about it and felt much worse when he told me he had done it.

 

The hours my husband is saving where for the new baby that is coming this summer and i also need him to take time away from work so that i can go to my appointments.

 

So what do you think, is this right, legal?

 

I know you're feeling badly about this. And you have every right to feel this way. I have no idea how much vacation your DH gets or what your postpartum is going to be like.

 

But I mean this very sincerely: aren't you glad you are not the poor woman who was so violently attacked?

 

Losing those 8 hours is difficult, I am not saying it isn't. But this woman sounds like she lost so much more.

 

Best wishes! :grouphug:

[OH_Homeschooler]

I had a job where you could donate sick leave to a pool to be offered when someone needed it, like a long-term illness so they would not have to take leave without pay. You could only donate if you had a minimum amount of sick leave, and I think it was handled differently if you were clerical versus higher up in the pay scale (so a secretary's pay would not magically cover an executive's pay).

 

If you left the job, you would be paid for any remaining vacation leave, but never sick leave (basically, the employer owned the sick leave, which an employee could accrue to infinity, and the employee owned the vacation leave, which had a limit). That's a great way to handle it, but it was a very large organization. I never had enough sick leave to donate because I wasn't there long enough, but if I had the amount that some people had I would have.

[Cherryanne]

 

But I mean this very sincerely: aren't you glad you are not the poor woman who was so violently attacked?

 

Losing those 8 hours is difficult, I am not saying it isn't. But this woman sounds like she lost so much more.

 

:iagree: It could always be worse.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Yes, the lady is out from hospital recovery, her plans are to move away.

Yes, my husband called it work/staff pressure since everyone grabed a paper to sign immediately. Not sure if everyone donate all 8 hour because no one shared what they signed up for.

 

 

He seriously needs to learn how to say NO. He was not forced, from what your wrote here and unless he only had 16 hours saved up, I don't think that the 'loss' of one day will be as big of a deal as you think.

 

What he did was kind, though and I imagine that most of us, if we had our faces cut up by a stranger, would appreciate the kindness of leave-sharing.

[Pink Fairy]

Based on your description, your problem is with your dh, not his employer. Just because everyone else grabbed a paper, doesn't mean he had to grab one, or fill it out right then. Considering your plans, I think he should have spoken to you about it first. :grouphug:

 

On the flip side, however, maybe the generosity of the people your dh works with will benefit you someday. I spent 3 months in the hospital the last time I was pg, completely unexpected, and thankfully my dh was able to use his accumulated sick leave to take off work and care for our children. If he hadn't had the necessary leave, it would have been a wonderful gift if his colleagues had been able and willing to donate some of their time to him. Hopefully such a situation will never come up for you, but if it ever did it's nice to know that your dh works with people who are willing to help.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Mamabegood

[happypamama]

What a tough situation! I would feel so torn if something like this happened at my DH's work. He gets very few vacation days, and this year, most of them are earmarked for after our baby arrives. Being pressured (either by coworkers or by HR) would be so difficult! IMO, the person in charge (whether it was HR or an individual employee who wanted to suggest it) should have sent around a memo or some such with a polite request, allowing everyone to speak to HR at his/her convenience and donate (or not) in complete privacy. I think a reasonable compromise should have been met first as well -- did the employee use all of her accrued leave, as well as whatever disability she might be able to get?

 

My dad was a teacher for a long time, and I can remember two instances where this sort of thing was suggested. For those who were able to afford it (like my dad, I think -- he was rarely sick, had summers and holidays off anyway, and had a SAH wife to be home when us kids were sick), it seemed like a really nice gesture, but from my current perspective, it would be really hard. I do think, though, that it was a really generous thing your family did, and I think you will be rewarded one way or the other in the end.

[dands]

Considering your plans, I think he should have spoken to you about it first. .

 

I agree

 

 

maybe the generosity of the people your dh works with will benefit you someday.

 

 

One can hope this will be our 6 child and the past five kids i been on my own for post op because he does not have the hours.

 

I really wish the best for her, the employees came together and helped the best way they could. I see that my husband and i need some growing to do together. Thanks for your advice and input ladies. Your support helps me very much in times i feel alone.

[angela in ohio]

Yes, but the vast, vast majority do not work like that. While her husband's employer's may be the exception, there are significant adverse tax and payroll implications for structuring it the way she says they do. In fact, if it is structured the way the OP says, her husband probably is, or should be, taxed on the amount he donated. IRS guidelines on leave-sharing programs require that they be leave-sharing, not compensation-sharing. My guess, without doing a lot of research on the subject, is that converting foregone leave to cash and paying the cash to the donee takes the program outside of the leave-sharing rules. If it is not within the leave-sharing guidelines, the donor is taxed on the foregone leave.

 

I don't doubt that this is the way it was explained, but I do doubt that this is the way it is.

 

Terri

 

I don't think we can assume that (1.) the employer is lying about the way it will be handled, and (2.) that the other employee makes less.

[angela in ohio]

Your support helps me very much in times i feel alone.

 

:grouphug: You are not alone. :001_smile:

[Pink Fairy]

 

One can hope this will be our 6 child and the past five kids i been on my own for post op because he does not have the hours.

 

 

 

My dh would be so dead if he left me alone with 6 kids after a c-section because he donated his leave. :smash: It sounds like he feels bad about it, so I'm sure he'll be more thoughtful in the future.

 

Sorry, mama. ((hugs))

[Greta]

It is legal and there can be a lot of pressure to participate. Just as there is pressure to make payroll deduction donations to the United Way and if you work for a non-profit or educational institution, to the organization itself. My last employer would actually post lists of the names of contributors to try to shame others into compliance. The implication is that if you do not contribute, you are not a good team player which can have repercussions during annual reviews.

 

They put a lot of pressure on everyone at my dh's job to donate to United Way. We donate money to charities, but that is not one that we particularly want to support. Yet, if you don't sign up during the annual "rally" to get everyone to sign up, then your manager pays you a personal visit to your office, to pressure you into signing up. :thumbdown: It's really ridiculous, and unethical, if you ask me, how far they take it.

 

This year, they put tons of pressure on their employees to donate, and then two weeks later, right before Christmas, they announced that there would be no raises for the next two years. :toetap05:

[angela in ohio]

They put a lot of pressure on everyone at my dh's job to donate to United Way. We donate money to charities, but that is not one that we particularly want to support. Yet, if you don't sign up during the annual "rally" to get everyone to sign up, then your manager pays you a personal visit to your office, to pressure you into signing up. :thumbdown: It's really ridiculous, and unethical, if you ask me, how far they take it.

 

This year, they put tons of pressure on their employees to donate, and then two weeks later, right before Christmas, they announced that there would be no raises for the next two years. :toetap05:

 

Dh was under intense pressure. It was a point of pride for his boss that 100% of administration signed up. We object to funding the United Way on moral grounds. He made it for a few years, but then the boss argued that he could mark his donation to go only to a program dh supports and told him to do it. It still goes through United Way, we still object, but he had no choice really. :glare:

[Greta]

Dh was under intense pressure. It was a point of pride for his boss that 100% of administration signed up. We object to funding the United Way on moral grounds. He made it for a few years, but then the boss argued that he could mark his donation to go only to a program dh supports and told him to do it. It still goes through United Way, we still object, but he had no choice really. :glare:

 

Uggh, it's infuriating, isn't it? My dh had resisted last year, but this year it was so bad he was afraid he wouldn't get a raise if he didn't sign up. So that was the ONLY reason he did so. And then almost immediately he found out he wouldn't be getting a raise anyway.

 

I guess United Way has to depend on pressure tactics because they can't get money freely given -- only when it's coerced? My respect for the organization, which was little to begin with, is plummeting.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Uggh, it's infuriating, isn't it? My dh had resisted last year, but this year it was so bad he was afraid he wouldn't get a raise if he didn't sign up. So that was the ONLY reason he did so. And then almost immediately he found out he wouldn't be getting a raise anyway.

 

I guess United Way has to depend on pressure tactics because they can't get money freely given -- only when it's coerced? My respect for the organization, which was little to begin with, is plummeting.

 

 

I'm surprised to hear about this. I thought it was just in MY organization (another United Way agency) that this forced donation takes place. Every year at the same time we hear, "we have to have 100% participation, even if it's just a dollar!" If you are going to take a dollar from me no matter what then why ask?! Just grab a gun, put a mask on and hold me up the old fashioned way!

 

(And, no, it's not that I resent giving one dollar, it's that it is FORCED.)

 

Wow. Since there were two other posters who said that their dh's were forced to contribute to United Way I googled and found all of these links. Apparently, it's the norm:

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=forced+united+way+contributions&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7TSHB_en

Edited January 28, 2011 by ThatCyndiGirl

[plansrme]

I don't think we can assume that (1.) the employer is lying about the way it will be handled, and (2.) that the other employee makes less.

 

As for #1, one of the following is true: they are lying; the OP misunderstood; or they are all engaging in tax fraud, unless the employer reports the foregone leave as income, withholds FICA on it, and the employee pays income and his share of employment taxes.

 

As for #2, on average, recipients of donated leave do make less than donors. This is a generalization, of course, and a selling point to employers of leave donation policies. The lowest-paid employees do not donate leave at the same rate as higher-paid employees, but they use donated leave at the same or a higher rate. If you do the math, the employer comes out ahead, on average. It's the dirty little secret of leave donation policies--the employer gets to look all warm and caring, but it saves them money. It's win-win.

 

Terri

[dands]

 

As for #2, on average, recipients of donated leave do make less than donors. This is a generalization, of course, and a selling point to employers of leave donation policies. The lowest-paid employees do not donate leave at the same rate as higher-paid employees, but they use donated leave at the same or a higher rate. If you do the math, the employer comes out ahead, on average. It's the dirty little secret of leave donation policies--the employer gets to look all warm and caring, but it saves them money. It's win-win.

 

Terri

 

I was wondering about this because the lady makes way less than the nurses, techs and doctors. So 8 hours of my husband is probably 12 - 16 for the lady. And if the hospital just gives her, her straight 8 hours than that means that the hospital saves money. That is not win- win. I would call that theft. That is why i would have just given her cash up front as charity rather that going with hospital. They already make my husband put hours without pay.

[RanchGirl]

This doesn't make any sense to me. If they are donating the money to this woman, is your husband taking it as salary, paying taxes on it, then they give it to her as tax-free cash? Is it paid to her as salary and removed from his salary pre-tax? Is the company giving it to her as a gift or as taxable wages?

 

Also typically companies don't want to pay everyone out for their vacation, that costs them extra money rather than you just taking a day off.

 

Seems to me if they want to give her money, they should set up a fund at a bank and tell people they can donate there, similar to a memorial fund.

 

Now if they are doing the hours thing so she gets time off, then the company will save money due to the salary differences but I have at least heard of that happening.

 

It all sounds very confusing and questionable, above and beyond the "pressure", which is not right either, it should have been a quiet donation opportunity IMO.

 

Speaking of United Way, when I was in the corporate world my company also had the UW pressure. Donation from your check plus constant carnivals, fund drives, etc. I found it quite offensive. My husband and I give generously financially and of our time but would not choose to donate either to UW. My mom's company is the same way but she is in charge of several of the campaigns and totally on board. She and others who do this just cannot even fathom that someone else would find it offensive. It's the United Way, they are simply above questioning. It would be like questioning something about NPR, another sacred cow in my Mom's book! :)

[mcconnellboys]

Completely wrong! Telling employees they are doing it and welcoming them to join in is one thing, pressuring them to do something without thinking about it or discussing it with significant others, etc. is something else entirely....

[plansrme]

I was wondering about this because the lady makes way less than the nurses, techs and doctors. So 8 hours of my husband is probably 12 - 16 for the lady. And if the hospital just gives her, her straight 8 hours than that means that the hospital saves money. That is not win- win. I would call that theft. That is why i would have just given her cash up front as charity rather that going with hospital. They already make my husband put hours without pay.

 

I hope it came through that I was saying "win-win" sarcastically--the employer gets to look all warm and fuzzy but (surprise!) saves money. That was the whole point of my cynical original post way up there, i.e., that leave sharing programs generally save the employer money.

 

 

Terri

[dands]

I hope it came through that I was saying "win-win" sarcastically--the employer gets to look all warm and fuzzy but (surprise!) saves money. That was the whole point of my cynical original post way up there, i.e., that leave sharing programs generally save the employer money.

 

 

Terri

 

got it!

[Mama Geek]

Companies and the United Way have been that way for years. We dh and I worked for 8 years, pressure was high and names were kept for raise and promotion time. It's nothing new.