Robin in DFW Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I just want to thank you for giving us all that wonderful information on writing instruction in your home. It makes the process seem a bit more attainable. Can you tell us what writing program you used to get you started with teaching writing to your children. I know it was mentioned in an old thread from last year, but I can't find that information now. My biggest problem is getting started. I know what needs to be done, but I just can't in gear to really do it. My ds13 can write. He often writes some wonderful narrations/summaries of history or literature. I just can't seem to move from that type of writing to something more...if that makes sense...? I guess I need a jump-start or something. I use WTM/WWE suggestions for writing with him, but wonder if there is something else that would better "guide" me? I would also love to know what you have used curricula-wise with your middle grades/high school students. You seem so sure of yourself and your choices with your dc whereas I am always second-guessing...it is a great source of worry for me, even though my 18 yo will graduate this June, has been accepted to the college of her choice and will be playing soccer with a scholarship...I still doubt my abilities to do this with my ds13...sigh... Thanks for any help you can give. P.S. I printed out your writing plan and have read it twice so far...I'm hoping it will sink in and I will miraculously begin to teach my ds writing skills... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Well, I had typed out a long answer and the baby hit the power button on the computer and poof! So here is the condensed version. I definitely have a trail of mistakes and failures along my parenting/homeschooling path. :sad: You have probably just never read any of my posts on the SN board. Trust me I lack confidence in plenty. Probably accepting my limits and failures vs. letting them completely overwhelm me is the only thing that lets me keep on going. :tongue_smilie: When I first started homeschooling, I used VIE. I knew instinctively that I didn't want to use any of the assigned writing topics, so I started off immediately assigning across curriculum. For example, if they were learning about newspaper articles, I would ask them to pretend to be a journalist at an event they were studying in history, etc. Over the yrs I have owned (listed in no particular order): IEW, PTIW, Lively Art of Writing, WS, CW, MCT, Abeka, as well as several rhetoric level books, my favorite of which is Horner's Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition. I have incorporated and rejected bits and pieces or whole swatches of them. As far as coming up with topics, have you read any articles on Socratic questions or on the various forms of essays? Once you have an understanding of how to frame open-ended questions and apply them to essay styles, it really isn't all the difficult to come up with topics. You might want to look through some of the online Cliffnotes for various lit bks and see the sample essay questions they have, etc. They might help you see how to create your own. Is that what you are looking for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Uhura Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Looking for the stamping foot icon for that baby! :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Uhura Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Robin - can you tell me what page 8FilltheHeart's post is on or can you copy it to this thread for reference? I haven't copied it to my THings to Remember document yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Looking for the stamping foot icon for that baby! :001_smile: Have mercy on her. ;) 5 (possibly 6) of the kids, including her, dh, and I all have strep. :tongue_smilie: Not so pretty in my house right now! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Uhura Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Oh no!! I hope you all get better soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Lynn Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Robin - can you tell me what page 8FilltheHeart's post is on or can you copy it to this thread for reference? I haven't copied it to my THings to Remember document yet. Do you mean the recent one? Here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239259&page=4 Scroll down to see 8FilltheHeart's posts (it took two posts). If I find the older one, I'll come back to link it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Uhura Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 yes, that's the link but if there is another one, I'd love to have that one too! Thank you! Capt_Uhura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) Capt Uhura...I couldn't find the original, so I copied the new one into word and printed it out all nice like...:D...it is sitting on my weekly schedule book to be read over and over again until it sinks in... 8FillTheHeart...here's what I have or have had...IEW, WS, Essay Apprentice, WWE, WriteShop, Wordsmith, PTIW, The Lively Art of Writing, Write with the Best, Spectrum Writing...actually, I'll stop there...the thought of all the money I've spent on writing makes me ill...:tongue_smilie: The things we've done mostly are summaries from History or Literature (or narration-type writing) and outlining and writing from outlines (from SOTW 4 workpages) and KWO and writing from that. I have used CliffNotes and SparkNotes for my dd18 to help with writing assignments and she uses prompts from textbooks she's using or Lit Guides. BUT...she is a good writer and can write for any subject, any purpose. My ds is just more resistant, I guess. Like you, none of the writing programs turn me on...I can't stand them...they seem pointless and the assignments have nothing to do with what ds is studying...I like to write across the subjects, not separate and apart from them. See...I know what I want and like...I just have trouble implementing it... I just need to settle myself down and think about how to start with him...maybe back at the beginning. I will be evaluating his skills. Thanks for the support everyone... Edited January 28, 2011 by Robin in DFW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Capt Uhura...I couldn't find the original, so I copied the new one into word and printed it out all nice like...:D...it is sitting on my weekly schedule book to be read over and over again until it sinks in... 8FillsTheHeart...here's what I have or have had...IEW, WS, Essay Apprentice, WWE, WriteShop, Wordsmith, PTIW, The Lively Art of Writing, Write with the Best, Spectrum Writing...actually, I'll stop there...the thought of all the money I've spent on writing makes me ill...:tongue_smilie: The things we've done mostly are summaries from History or Literature (or narration-type writing) and outlining and writing from outlines (from SOTW 4 workpages) and KWO and writing from that. I have used CliffNotes and SparkNotes for my dd18 to help with writing assignments and she uses prompts from textbooks she's using or Lit Guides. BUT...she is a good writer and can write for any subject, any purpose. My ds is just more resistant, I guess. Like you, none of the writing programs turn me on...I can't stand them...they seem pointless and the assignments have nothing to do with what ds is studying...I like to write across the subjects, not separate and apart from them. See...I know what I want and like...I just have trouble implementing it... I just need to settle myself down and think about how to start with him...maybe back at the beginning. I will be evaluating his skills. Thanks for the support everyone... Robin, I can relate to your post. I have certainly owned more than my share of writing programs and I will pull from some of them, but not use anything in it's entirety. I would love to see concrete examples of how to take what a student is studying and turn it into a paper topic. We are taking a break from regular chemistry and ds is reading Chemical Chaos. He is studying the Crusades for history and reading The Canterbury Tales for literature. Now I could come up with a couple of paper topics for my dd (18) on the Canterbury Tales, but Swimmer Dude is not there so what does he do? Pick a scientist and tell me briefly about him? For middle school (7th grade) is this supposed to be a report or an essay? He despises narration and is done with that according to him. Is he responding critically to the literature or is he telling me something about the work, or again is it a narration? Compare and contrast two of the Crusades? I make myself nuts. I'm not sure why, but this is a challenging bridge to get across. I need examples that look like the break-down of Foerster word problems. Please tell me I am not the only person with this issue and that there is a cure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Robin, I can relate to your post. I have certainly owned more than my share of writing programs and I will pull from some of them, but not use anything in it's entirety. I would love to see concrete examples of how to take what a student is studying and turn it into a paper topic. We are taking a break from regular chemistry and ds is reading Chemical Chaos. He is studying the Crusades for history and reading The Canterbury Tales for literature. Now I could come up with a couple of paper topics for my dd (18) on the Canterbury Tales, but Swimmer Dude is not there so what does he do? Pick a scientist and tell me briefly about him? For middle school (7th grade) is this supposed to be a report or an essay? He despises narration and is done with that according to him. Is he responding critically to the literature or is he telling me something about the work, or again is it a narration? Compare and contrast two of the Crusades? I make myself nuts. I'm not sure why, but this is a challenging bridge to get across. I need examples that look like the break-down of Foerster word problems. Please tell me I am not the only person with this issue and that there is a cure. I went and grabbed 6th grade dd's lesson planner and I'll give some examples about what she has written about this yr. These are mixture of history, science, and lit (from the Chronicles of Narnia). * Create a newspaper. Include an article about the death of Caesar, an article about a problem with an aqueduct, advertisements for popular items. *create your own parable of the Blind Men and the Elephant *Compare and contrast the attitudes of Uncle Andrew and the Queen when each claim that the rules do not apply to him/her. *re-read the scene about the secret police. Write a scene where the main character is sent to a concentration camp. *write a report on the main functions of the respiratory system. Identify the organs and their jobs. *describe the process of how beavers build their dams *choose either the 7 natural wonders or the 7 wonders of the ancient world and create a travel brochure advertising each *write a report on how sundials work *compare Lewis's personified hedgehog to Beatrix Potter's Mrs. Tiggy-Winkle. *write a report on the the process of illumination. *write a report on the 3 ways mountains are formed *What are some religious symbols in Voyage of the Dawn Treader? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) Robin, I can relate to your post. I have certainly owned more than my share of writing programs and I will pull from some of them, but not use anything in it's entirety. I would love to see concrete examples of how to take what a student is studying and turn it into a paper topic. We are taking a break from regular chemistry and ds is reading Chemical Chaos. He is studying the Crusades for history and reading The Canterbury Tales for literature. Now I could come up with a couple of paper topics for my dd (18) on the Canterbury Tales, but Swimmer Dude is not there so what does he do? Pick a scientist and tell me briefly about him? For middle school (7th grade) is this supposed to be a report or an essay? He despises narration and is done with that according to him. Is he responding critically to the literature or is he telling me something about the work, or again is it a narration? Compare and contrast two of the Crusades? I make myself nuts. I'm not sure why, but this is a challenging bridge to get across. I need examples that look like the break-down of Foerster word problems. Please tell me I am not the only person with this issue and that there is a cure. Lisa, I wanted to address the general underlying question I sense in this post. In our house the entire point of writing in middle school is essentially firming up writing skills. I try to create a variety of assignments. I give assignments that are summations of something that they have been studying (for example the respiratory system (she did a human anatomy study) and the formation of mountains (a geology book she read). I also give topics that are "fringe" assignments. They are things that came up in something that we were reading but didn't delve into very deeply. These are meant to help with research skills as well as writing. (examples.....sundial, illumination, cuneiform writing) She really prefers essay writing, so I tend to give one of those about every 3 weeks. They tend to be analyzing something in lit. And then I throw in the odd week of an assignment that is nothing but fun (the parable, the newspaper, the travel brochure etc.) ETA: these all pertain to something we have been studying but are a break from report and essay writing.) Edited January 28, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 8FilltheHeart, both posts were very helpful. My brain seems to be wired where I need to see a couple of examples and then I can generally run from there. You clarified several points of confusion. Thank you. I hope your family is on the end soon.:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) Thank you both for your replies, suggestions, lists and time... Mulling things over with others really helps... I am off now to see what I can come up with! Edited January 28, 2011 by Robin in DFW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiegirl Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Yet again thank you, 8FilltheHeart, for writing this out. Your post has helped clarify a few things for me. Goodness, during the last two weeks, this board has been chock full of threads that have given me much food for thought. I love it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Yet again thank you, 8FilltheHeart, for writing this out. Your post has helped clarify a few things for me. Goodness, during the last two weeks, this board has been chock full of threads that have given me much food for thought. I love it! I love your enthusiasm. I have to go sit in a corner with legal pad in hand and draw diagrams to absorb and sort all the info.:tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3browneyedboys4me Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Any suggestions on the grading aspect of the writing assignments? I'm really concerned with how I should correct my son's work. I love all of the writing ideas that I've read about, but I wonder what I should expect from him with these assignments? Should I be correcting grammar, or focus on content and style? I always seem to lean toward content and style and let the grammar/spelling slide as to not overwhelm him with rules/details. However, I don't know what is right. I suspect that the grammar and spellling will evolve with time and practice. I wonder if there is a good book that give suggestions on this?! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) Any suggestions on the grading aspect of the writing assignments? I'm really concerned with how I should correct my son's work. I love all of the writing ideas that I've read about, but I wonder what I should expect from him with these assignments? Should I be correcting grammar, or focus on content and style? I always seem to lean toward content and style and let the grammar/spelling slide as to not overwhelm him with rules/details. However, I don't know what is right. I suspect that the grammar and spellling will evolve with time and practice. I wonder if there is a good book that give suggestions on this?! Thanks! I'm not sure exactly how to answer this since this is a process that grows with my kids as they grow in their writing. We have sat together and edited their work from the time they started independent writing. FWIW......I would never accept a paper with grammar and spelling mistakes. I have some really terrible spellers, so there are always plenty marked! :tongue_smilie: I consider spelling and basic grammar to be addressed regardless of paper content. One option is to consider have 2 different levels of editing. One level addresses the grammar/mechanics portion which means spelling, grammar, punctuation, capitalization, etc. The 2nd level addresses content. Another FWIW.......I don't grade their writing. We meet together to revise and edit together. We discuss the strengths and weaknesses. Errors are marked. Notes are jotted in the margins. They are expected to re-write and turn in a final copy w/corrections. I pretty much know their abilities and when they have put forth effort or slapped something together. If they submit the latter, sometimes starting over from scratch is a better option for them. ;) ETA: My kids also know that rough drafts are part of the writing process. With the exception of younger kids that are really just beginning writing, rough draft=final copy doesn't exist in our home. For littler kids, high praise and encouragement are part of the process. For my older kids, unless it is a new skill (like essay writing), critiquing is a part of the process. Again, mommy instinct seems to guide when/what I expect. Edited January 28, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3browneyedboys4me Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Thank you! This is wonderful advice and I completely agree with you. I like the idea of two different editing processes. I think that is a great idea. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Uhura Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I like BW's distinction between revision and editing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristyH Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 This thread has been tremendously helpful. Thank you so must for allowing me to lurk. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristyH Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 8filltheheart, I have thought and read more of your posts and had a few more comments. I feel like the writing light bulb went off in my head for the first time ever when it comes to teaching writing. You have made it seem so simple. Where have you been hiding? :tongue_smilie: Your method makes complete sense and seems to really build a great foundation. Are there any books out there that teach writing like this? I want to read more on this. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HootyTooty Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I love this thread so much right now. I really needed it after realizing what I have been doing for writing instruction just is not working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dina in Oklahoma Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Thank you 8~ Your insight is priceless and I sincerely appreciate your willingness to share! Dina:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovinmomma Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Do you mean the recent one? Here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239259&page=4 Scroll down to see 8FilltheHeart's posts (it took two posts). If I find the older one, I'll come back to link it too. THIS IS AN OLD THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't get the link from this post to work, but I'm looking for writing posts from 8FtH and I think I **really** want to read the one referenced. ;) Anyone have an updated link that works? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 THIS IS AN OLD THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't get the link from this post to work, but I'm looking for writing posts from 8FtH and I think I **really** want to read the one referenced. ;) Anyone have an updated link that works? That link you have in the quote is this thread: "Bringing Karen's mention of essay writing to a new thread". For future reference: when I encounter a broken link like that, I have discovered this (pain in the rear, but it works) work-around: 1. click on the link 2. that brings up a page that says "The page you are looking for cannot be found"; look up at the web page address; towards the end of the address is a 5-digit or 6-digit number; in this case it was the number: 239259; copy this number. (NOTICE: you can actually see that number as part of the web address linked in the post your quoted.) 3. now open a new window for a google search; for the search subject type: "well-trained mind forum, writing 239259" ----> basically, you want the following in the search subject window: - well-trained mind forum - comma - a word or two of what the subject of the thread was about - paste the 5- or 6-digit number 4. now hit return for your search; usually that pulls up the thread you're trying to reach SO many threads keep having broken links, that I make it a habit to actually type the name of the thread I'm linking, so if the link breaks, people can still use the thread title to search on the WTM and find the thread that way, too. ;) cheers! Lori D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovinmomma Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 That link you have in the quote is this thread: "Bringing Karen's mention of essay writing to a new thread". For future reference: when I encounter a broken link like that, I have discovered this (pain in the rear, but it works) work-around: 1. click on the link 2. that brings up a page that says "The page you are looking for cannot be found"; look up at the web page address; towards the end of the address is a 5-digit or 6-digit number; in this case it was the number: 239259; copy this number. (NOTICE: you can actually see that number as part of the web address linked in the post your quoted.) 3. now open a new window for a google search; for the search subject type: "well-trained mind forum, writing 239259" ----> basically, you want the following in the search subject window: - well-trained mind forum - comma - a word or two of what the subject of the thread was about - paste the 5- or 6-digit number 4. now hit return for your search; usually that pulls up the thread you're trying to reach SO many threads keep having broken links, that I make it a habit to actually type the name of the thread I'm linking, so if the link breaks, people can still use the thread title to search on the WTM and find the thread that way, too. ;) cheers! Lori D. You're amazing!!!!! I kept looking at that number thinking there must be some way to look it up with that number, but could't figure it out. THANK YOU! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Oh, and I forgot to mention -- the specific posts by 8FilltheHeart that you were looking for are down-a-ways in the thread: #33 and #34 -- but the whole thread has loads of great input by lots of people, so worth reading all of it. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nansk Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 For future reference: when I encounter a broken link like that, I have discovered this (pain in the rear, but it works) work-around: Thank you! Thank you! I have been so frustrated with all the broken links! I also include a thread's title in the link when I link to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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