Any Christians here pro and against Geocentricity ( The sun moves around the earth)

[blessedmom3]

Please give me your best arguments to support your belief.

I believe in the old theory (well since Copernicus - Galileo ) that the sun is in the center .

 

 

I recently heard about geocentricity .

You can read more at this website:

 

http://www.geocentricity.com/

 

One of the Bible verses they say that supports this belief is :

 

is Joshua 10:13:

 

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."

 

Those of you who believe the earth is moving , how do you argue with this neo-geocentric belief?

Edited January 25, 2011 by blessedmom3

[newlifemom]

I am not following. Because the story in Joshua shows the earth not moving for a period of time, it is apparent that the sun revolves around the earth? Seriously, I'm :confused:.

 

Now, scientist I am not so I am never surprised by things I don't know, but wasn't the event in Joshua a supernatural one?

[Mimm]

:blink:

[Jean in Newcastle]

I've never known of a modern person, Christian or not, who believes that the sun moves around the earth. I believe in the inerrancy of the Scriptures and do not believe that the Bible teaches this.

[CarolfromIL]

:blink:

:iagree:

[blessedmom3]

I am not following. Because the story in Joshua shows the earth not moving for a period of time, it is apparent that the sun revolves around the earth? Seriously, I'm :confused:.

 

Now, scientist I am not so I am never surprised by things I don't know, but wasn't the event in Joshua a supernatural one?

 

:iagree:

But they have plenty of other verses that I don't know how to argue :)

 

and I am a scientist , but not an astronomer and certainly don't know the Bible very well yet .

[Kate CA]

 

http://creation.com/geocentrism-and-creation is an article you might want to read.

[CarolfromIL]

Hun, I want to ask this nicely but I'm just not following you. You state your a scientist but are swayed in the arguments of non-scientists that the sun revolves around the earth?

[BBG580]

Hun, I want to ask this nicely but I'm just not following you. You state your a scientist but are swayed in the arguments of non-scientists that the sun revolves around the earth?

 

I think the question is simply meant to be provocative to start a discussion. In the OP she states that she believes the earth revolves around the sun. :)

[Hannah C.]

I've been told about one woman who didn't know the earth revolved around the sun, but it wasn't for religious reasons. This was a person who was two degrees removed from me, so the story is probably true.

 

I don't know any Christian who seriously believes in a geocentric universe because of the Bible!!

 

The event in Joshua was supernatural. While it is true that people used that Scripture in the past to argue for a geocentric universe, people since then and today usually adhere to the idea that the Bible can describe things in the way people experience them. For example, the Bible talks about the sun rising and setting, just as we do today. Does the sun actually rise and set? No, the earth revolves, but here on earth we experience it as "rising and setting" and describe it that way, even today, when we know what's happening. In the same way, the Bible can say things like "the sun stood still" without it having to mean that the earth is the center of the universe.

 

ETA: The Bible describing things in an experiential way (sun rising and setting) is completely compatible with a belief in biblical inerrancy. :)

Edited January 25, 2011 by Hannah C.

[CarolfromIL]

I think the question is simply meant to be provocative to start a discussion. In the OP she states that she believes the earth revolves around the sun. :)

 

Well I'm tired and fell for it, and was in genuine shock. Lol.

[Audrey]

:blink:

 

I'll see your :blink: and raise you a :001_rolleyes:.

[Tullia]

I interpreted this as the OP expressing curiosity about the beliefs cited and asking for more information on why they believe as they do. A few years ago, I read an article that seemed to support some kind of neo-Ptolemaic (ok-- I know that's NOT a real word ;)) model and it surprised me. I think the basic premise was not scriptural; more a question of how do we know what really revolves around what when looking at a much larger frame of reference than the solar system.

[alpidarkomama]

For Jews, it just means that the sun froze where it was so we could finish the battle before shabbos/sabbath! :)

[Heather in Neverland]

I've never known of a modern person, Christian or not, who believes that the sun moves around the earth. I believe in the inerrancy of the Scriptures and do not believe that the Bible teaches this.

 

:iagree:

 

I actually thought this was a joke. There are people who really believe the sun goes around the earth?

[Miss Sherry]

Seriously, I didn't know anyone still believed that way. I knew they did centuries ago, but now ? It seems, if you look hard enough, you will find people who believe anything. Really.

[scrappyhappymama]

This is so weird. I just heard about this idea the other day (in a modern context that is). Apparently some friends of mine know people who actually believe in geocentrism and think that we have all been deluded into believing that the earth revolves around the son, or that it even moves at all. They do base it on a lot of scripture references.

 

However, the websites they pointed me to to explain these beliefs were affiliated with other very 'out there' conspiracy theories and were also very, very, very anti-Semitic. I didn't really get the connection, but besides the obvious reasons, it was difficult to lend any sort of credibility to these folks at all.

 

A few days ago, I was telling my husband about stumbling across these ideas and how shocked I was to find that people today actually believe in this stuff. He said, "Yes, but how do we know? I mean, how do we really, really know?" I told him- "I am NOT having this conversation with you!" :lol:

[Skadi]

For Jews, it just means that the sun froze where it was so we could finish the battle before shabbos/sabbath! :)

 

The sun cannot "freeze" or "stop" where it is to affect how it sets in our sky. That's why people who take the Torah or Bible literally have problems with this verse.

 

So you see, if:

 

God wrote the Bible / delivered his message directly to those who did write it unerringly

 

and

 

God does not lie

 

then

 

this verse clearly states that God stopped the sun still and that it was stopping the sun that caused the sun not to set in the sky, meaning that he created a geocentric universe.

 

The only reason Christians don't believe in a geocentric universe is because most of them aren't aware of all the absurd statements tucked away between all those pages. Why a Christian should carry on about the creation story in Genesis or Noah's Ark or Sodom but not take this verse just as seriously (or any of the others permitting or lauding wild things like murder, rape, incest, slavery and so on) will always be a contradiction in my eyes.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Skadi

[creekland]

The only reason Christians don't believe in a geocentric universe is because most of them aren't aware of all the absurd statements tucked away between all those pages. Why a Christian should carry on about the creation story in Genesis or Noah's Ark or Sodom but not take this verse just as seriously (or any of the others permitting or lauding wild things like murder, rape, incest, slavery and so on) will always be a contradiction in my eyes.

 

This isn't the only reason at all. I've read the whole Bible, several times, and am aware of pretty much all of what you call "absurd statements tucked away between those pages."

 

I believe the earth revolves around the sun (proof coming from the motion of the other planets that we see in the sky). I also believe (fully believe) that God did slow sunset that night using whatever means He wanted to. To me, the God that CREATED this whole universe from the smallest quark to the largest star is not limited to the normal rules of our universe. He created the rules, He can change them if He wishes. The fact that we can not do the same nor does it normally occur once in a while is what makes it a miracle - an act of God.

 

I do not see it as a contradiction at all. In my IRL world, all of us have read the Bible multiple times and we sometimes even study those "absurd statements." And we still fully believe in our Creator and our spiritual lives. The fallacy lies in thinking that a creator of this universe (any creator) must play by the rules and that miracles can't exist. :D

[choirfarm]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

This isn't the only reason at all. I've read the whole Bible, several times, and am aware of pretty much all of what you call "absurd statements tucked away between those pages."

 

I believe the earth revolves around the sun (proof coming from the motion of the other planets that we see in the sky). I also believe (fully believe) that God did slow sunset that night using whatever means He wanted to. To me, the God that CREATED this whole universe from the smallest quark to the largest star is not limited to the normal rules of our universe. He created the rules, He can change them if He wishes. The fact that we can not do the same nor does it normally occur once in a while is what makes it a miracle - an act of God.

 

I do not see it as a contradiction at all. In my IRL world, all of us have read the Bible multiple times and we sometimes even study those "absurd statements." And we still fully believe in our Creator and our spiritual lives. The fallacy lies in thinking that a creator of this universe (any creator) must play by the rules and that miracles can't exist. :D

[katemary63]

This isn't the only reason at all. I've read the whole Bible, several times, and am aware of pretty much all of what you call "absurd statements tucked away between those pages."

 

I believe the earth revolves around the sun (proof coming from the motion of the other planets that we see in the sky). I also believe (fully believe) that God did slow sunset that night using whatever means He wanted to. To me, the God that CREATED this whole universe from the smallest quark to the largest star is not limited to the normal rules of our universe. He created the rules, He can change them if He wishes. The fact that we can not do the same nor does it normally occur once in a while is what makes it a miracle - an act of God.

 

I do not see it as a contradiction at all. In my IRL world, all of us have read the Bible multiple times and we sometimes even study those "absurd statements." And we still fully believe in our Creator and our spiritual lives. The fallacy lies in thinking that a creator of this universe (any creator) must play by the rules and that miracles can't exist. :D

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Rhonda in TX]

I've never known of a modern person, Christian or not, who believes that the sun moves around the earth. I believe in the inerrancy of the Scriptures and do not believe that the Bible teaches this.

 

A few years ago, I received a flyer in the mail from a group that believes the sun revolves around the earth. I don't remember much about it because I threw it away as soon as I realized what it was. :tongue_smilie:

 

You can find people that believe just about anything.

[Teachin'Mine]

The sun cannot "freeze" or "stop" where it is to affect how it sets in our sky. That's why people who take the Torah or Bible literally have problems with this verse.

 

So you see, if:

 

God wrote the Bible / delivered his message directly to those who did write it unerringly

 

and

 

God does not lie

 

then

 

this verse clearly states that God stopped the sun still and that it was stopping the sun that caused the sun not to set in the sky, meaning that he created a geocentric universe.

 

The only reason Christians don't believe in a geocentric universe is because most of them aren't aware of all the absurd statements tucked away between all those pages. Why a Christian should carry on about the creation story in Genesis or Noah's Ark or Sodom but not take this verse just as seriously (or any of the others permitting or lauding wild things like murder, rape, incest, slavery and so on) will always be a contradiction in my eyes.

 

Actually God can do whatever He chooses to do regarding the sun. As was said, that was an isolated supernatural occurrence. God has used the sun in modern times as well.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

 

And continues to use the sun in Medjugorje too. :)

[Laurie4b]

nt

Edited January 25, 2011 by Laurie4b

[Laurie4b]

From their position on earth, that was an accurate description. We'd say the same today if it happened. "Look! The sun isn't moving!"

 

In fact, we do say the same kinds of things today. We still talk about sunrise and sunset as if it is the sun that is moving. We do not say, "Ah! The earth has rotated 1/2 turn. " Same with the moon: "The moon will rise in such and such part of the sky tonight."

[Lizzie in Ma]

:iagree:

 

I actually thought this was a joke. There are people who really believe the sun goes around the earth?

 

me too

[Meriwether]

This isn't the only reason at all. I've read the whole Bible, several times, and am aware of pretty much all of what you call "absurd statements tucked away between those pages."

 

I believe the earth revolves around the sun (proof coming from the motion of the other planets that we see in the sky). I also believe (fully believe) that God did slow sunset that night using whatever means He wanted to. To me, the God that CREATED this whole universe from the smallest quark to the largest star is not limited to the normal rules of our universe. He created the rules, He can change them if He wishes. The fact that we can not do the same nor does it normally occur once in a while is what makes it a miracle - an act of God.

 

I do not see it as a contradiction at all. In my IRL world, all of us have read the Bible multiple times and we sometimes even study those "absurd statements." And we still fully believe in our Creator and our spiritual lives. The fallacy lies in thinking that a creator of this universe (any creator) must play by the rules and that miracles can't exist. :D

 

 

:iagree:100% It gets my goat when people assume you must be either ignorant or stupid to believe the Bible.

[Laurie4b]

The sun cannot "freeze" or "stop" where it is to affect how it sets in our sky. That's why people who take the Torah or Bible literally have problems with this verse.

 

So you see, if:

 

God wrote the Bible / delivered his message directly to those who did write it unerringly

 

and

 

God does not lie

 

then

 

this verse clearly states that God stopped the sun still and that it was stopping the sun that caused the sun not to set in the sky, meaning that he created a geocentric universe.

 

The only reason Christians don't believe in a geocentric universe is because most of them aren't aware of all the absurd statements tucked away between all those pages. Perhaps some chocolate is in order. [/color]Why a Christian should carry on about the creation story in Genesis or Noah's Ark or Sodom but not take this verse just as seriously (or any of the others permitting or lauding wild things like murder, rape, incest, slavery and so on) will always be a contradiction in my eyes.

 

So do you say, "sunset" or "sunrise?" Both imply the movement of the sun, not the earth. Do you suppose that a person 1000's of years into the future coming across this common expression of our time would likewise think that we don't know that the earth revolves around the sun? Would she be correct if she made that assumption?

 

Talking about the movement of the sun is quite reasonable based on what we observe. I have yet to hear anyone say, "Look at the magnificent sky. Another half-rotation of the earth! <sigh>" Knowing differently, we all speak as if it is the sun which moves.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Laurie4b

[lionfamily1999]

:blink:

I wish I could use your avatar instead of the smiley, it was so much more expressive :lol:

From their position on earth, that was an accurate description. We'd say the same today if it happened. "Look! The sun isn't moving!"

 

In fact, we do say the same kinds of things today. We still talk about sunrise and sunset as if it is the sun that is moving. We do not say, "Ah! The earth has rotated 1/2 turn. " Same with the moon: "The moon will rise in such and such part of the sky tonight."

:D :iagree:

[MissKNG]

The only reason Christians don't believe in a geocentric universe is because most of them aren't aware of all the absurd statements tucked away between all those pages. Why a Christian should carry on about the creation story in Genesis or Noah's Ark or Sodom but not take this verse just as seriously (or any of the others permitting or lauding wild things like murder, rape, incest, slavery and so on) will always be a contradiction in my eyes.

 

I think it's absurd and offensive for you to state something like this.

[PiCO]

It gets my goat when people assume you must be either ignorant or stupid to believe the Bible.

 

I'm an atheist, but I don't think you have to be stupid or ignorant to believe the Bible. I think it's a matter of faith.

 

I do find it frustrating when people try to use biblical explanations as scientific arguments. As someone said earlier, the Creator of the Universe does not have to play by the rules (natural laws.) There are miracles in the bible that can not be explained.

[Tullia]

Please give me your best arguments to support your belief.

I believe in the old theory (well since Copernicus - Galileo ) that the sun is in the center .

 

 

I recently heard about geocentricity .

You can read more at this website:

 

http://www.geocentricity.com/

 

One of the Bible verses they say that supports this belief is :

 

is Joshua 10:13:

 

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."

 

Those of you who believe the earth is moving , how do you argue with this neo-geocentric belief?

 

I don't accept the neo-geocentric model you're describing, but a couple of thoughts. I once asked a friend who is an astrophysicist about general motion questions because someone had left a neo-geocentric flyer on my gate. He thinks it's possible that someone read an online what-if discussion and didn't realize that it was only a thought puzzle. He also reminded me that not only is the earth moving, but so is the sun. Galaxies move too. If I understood him correctly, the proper way to frame the question is to talk about movement of a specific object in relation to one or more other objects. Where the discussion gets interesting is when you move beyond a single solar system and consider things on a much larger scale. I stopped comprehending at the galactic level and once he started talking about clusters and clusters of clusters my eyes glazed over. The point I think he was trying to make is that given certain parameters, one could theoretically choose any point and say it's the center around which all other points draw their reference. Of course, saying so as a thought experiment and finding empirical evidence are quite different things. BTW, my friend is not religious in the traditional sense.

 

One thing I have gleaned about scientific ideas by reading books on the history of science is that ideas never entirely disappear and tend to recur. Also, the fact that one model replaces another doesn't mean that the old model disappears. The Copernican model may have succeeded the Ptolemaic model but as a pp said, we still speak as if the Ptolemaic model exists. And, it did make sense at one time given the observations which could be made with available technology.

 

The most succinct cautionary words I've found on the subject of scientific models comes from the epilogue of C.S. Lewis' The Discarded Image. His position was that the medieval cosmological model made sense at one time, but was discarded when it no longer explained the evidence made available by telescopes. That's rather obvious, of course, but he goes on to say that the current model is no different than the earlier in the sense that it is only an approximation of reality which is useful for framing scientific discourse. Models are only that--representations of reality and should not be confused with reality itself. I intend to use the current model (Copernican) for our solar system, though, until I see evidence to the contrary.

 

As to the Biblical issues... I agree with what creekland posted.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Martha in NM
clarify statement