Some examples of middle school "outside the box"

[JennW in SoCal]

I thought someone might benefit from seeing some examples of what outside the box middle school looked like for my neurotypical ds. In other words this is some of what I did when I wasn't worried about accommodating learning disabilities. I can't tell you what kind of writing he did as I didn't use a program nor did I assign writing from all the reading he did. If anyone is really interested I'll go dig through the box of all his school stuff to see what I can find!

 

I hope some others will post what they are currently doing or have done in the past.

 

First up, book lists. We read and discussed. And that's it. No analysis, no written assignments, just literature for the love of literature.

 

Classics

20.000 Leagues Under the Sea

Journey to the Center of the Earth

Around the World in 80 Days

Hound of the Baskervilles

Sherlock Holmes stories

Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court

Hobbit

Lord of the Rings

near classics -- darn good books!

Watership Down

all the James Herriot books

Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy

My Family and Other Animals by Gerrald Durrell

Murder on the Orient Express

 

Everything else he devoured:

Brian Jacques Redwall series

Garth Nix Keys to the Kingdom

Rick Riordan -- the Percy Jackson books

Charlie Bone books

Robert Heinlein books for boys (Have Spacesuit will Travel, Rolling Stones, etc)

Ursula Le Guin Earth Sea Trilogy

Jonothan Stroud Bartimaeus series

Philip Pullman’s His Dark Materials trilogy

Christopher Paolini Eragon series

 

There are more, I'm sure. We attended several author signings and readings, attended plays, too.

 

Some examples of units (for lack of a better word) I created:

 

A very short unit on early man

The Kin by Peter Dickinson: novel about a group of children 200,000 years ago

Young Oxford Guide to the Prehistoric World

books on cave paintings in France, did our own cave paintings

visited Museum of Man exhibit on evolution and did early man timeline

 

Longer unit on Asia:

Monkey: A Journey to the West

Long is Dragon about Chinese calligraphy: taught ds to use my calligraphy brush

Japanese mythology (don’t have the source jotted down)

Ramayana (read aloud and edited as needed -- never found a good for kids version)

books on Hokusai (Japanese artist)

Blue Fingers: A Ninja tale

Commodore Perry in the Land of the Shoguns

had ds fill in blank maps of different Asian countries, noting mountain chains, major rivers and cities

Visited Asian art collections in area museums

 

Finally, we did a year of geology and geography based on Runkle's text

Rise and Fall of San Diego a book on area geology. Did field trips from that book to find local rock formations.

lots and lots of geochaching

and many visits to the local natural history and oceanographic museums

[Guest]

This is very similar to what we do with books, now that dd is beginning to leave behind the "project" stage and read differently.

 

Perhaps it might be useful for people if you describe what kinds of discussions you tend to have about books if you're not formally teaching them, and what, if anything, you do to prepare for such discussions if you haven't read the book before -- I know you and your son read a lot that both of you are encountering for the first time as well as ones you know beforehand.

[Corraleno]

n/m

I don't have the time to spend the next three days explaining and defending it anyway.

 

Jackie

Edited January 24, 2011 by Corraleno
deleted

[prairiegirl]

Jenn, I always enjoy your posts. They help me think beyond my comfort zone. Thank you so much for writing this out. This post and the others from the last few days have inspired my creative juices to flow.

 

Thank you. :001_smile:

[Mom22ns]

Jenn,

My olds ds is not NT, however, he seems to have the same tastes in literature that yours does. He has read almost every book on your list. It is always fun to find a kindred spirit.

 

We use LL for our analysis, the rest of the books he reads we discuss naturally, but do no writing assignments.

[radiobrain]

As I am sure my small post was swallowed in the other thread...

 

We are all "outside the box" as we Homeschool. That is pretty crazy and strange to most people. :D

 

But I see "outside the box" as trusting yourself, your choices, and feeling free to tweak, omit, insert whatever you want into what you teach.

 

I have some very specific things I think my kids should learn, that are not on any core curriculum. There are some things that I think are stupid, and I am perfectly fine with skipping them completely. I might look at a book list, or a grade level assessment as a basic guideline...then I spin it, turn it around, rework it, laugh at some things, then realize that what I come up with and what was there are only vaguely similar.

 

So my "outside the box" is that I don't ever teach any curriculum as written. I pull the best parts from many places. What I think is best, someone else might not agree with. That is fine with me. There are some things that are "supposed" to be taught at certain ages/grades/times and I would say... "Umm, why?". Let's just say I am not afraid to be flexible and do not compare my school day or choices to anyone else.

[HappyGrace]

Jenn-THANK you for sharing-it's so helpful. Yes, as K said, we'd love to hear generally about "discussion"

 

Jackie-PLEASE don't feel like you have to defend. I think part of what was coming through is frustration-we WANT to do what you are doing and have no idea how! You are blessed with imagination and creativity to be able to teach like you do! (ETA: I see more posts on that thread that may nullify some of what I wrote above-I guess there was more to it for some people. But know that for ME, when I posted on that thread, it was out of frustration of wanting to teach like you do!)

 

My mind is expanding from reading these threads. I have all kinds of ideas cooking. For example, Dd11 wants to be a missionary-and because of these threads we are going to discuss today about letting her come up with ideas of what she wants to study to help her toward that goal. I could see that covering practically every "academic" area across the board.

 

"Meaningful work" is the phrase that keeps coming to mind for what logic stagers could be engaged in.

 

I need to ponder this all some more, but glimmers of possibility are coming to light.

 

And I'm not giving up on curriculum, etc., but I am at least starting to think outside the box!

 

Please keep the examples coming!

Edited January 24, 2011 by HappyGrace

[Capt_Uhura]

Jackie - :iagree: Please don't feel like you're defending yourself. We are just trying to understand what you do. I think a lot of terms need defining that's why we keep asking questions. It's going to take lots of repeating and discussing for some of us to get there! Please be patient with us. :D

 

I'd love to ditch all curriculum and just wing it and enjoy every day. This year seems to be a big skill year for us and while the boys aren't complaining too much, I wish they'd run down the stairs excited to do school. Well, they did until MCT was finished.

 

I need concrete examples. After building a house and moving in August, I'm just exhausted. I just don't have the energy to go outside the box. I want to do the next thing in as pleasureable way possible and just make it to summer so I can recharge mentally. I haven't had a break from my kids in years, no vacation, nothing. I. am. worn. out. SO it's going to take me a while to process what you're doing....b/c I want to be you. :001_smile:

[johnandtinagilbert]

Jenn...you're always inspirational. Now see, even though we use a curriculum, we do a lot of what you mentioned (at least 1/2 of your booklist). That sounds like a pretty nice way to start exiting a box. I get the feeling what some mean by "out of the box" is also called tweaking by others (at least that's how I'm understanding) who may use a curricula as their springboard; while others have the intuitive sense of how to design something that works. I think I lack creativity to walk it out as well as you, but I am quite comfy (after time) to tweak and walk out of the box.

 

Jackie, you're an outstanding teacher. You should share. Please don't stop. If you could consider, sometimes those in the box (myself including) sometimes feel attacked by out of the boxers b/c the box works for us and we don't have the need to step out. I think it takes time for some, like me, to be able to step out and take the plunge in a different way. Some kids will learn fine in or out, teachers don't always have the skill to do it, though. I'm not sure if I had the skill or it was fear and/or lack of confidence, I'm just fortunate that we made it this for regardless of my lack of skill.

[JennW in SoCal]

I think Radiobrain (love your avatar) hit the nail on the head. Being outside the box simply means trusting yourself. I trusted myself completely with general education, and turned to curricula for math -- especially algebra and up, and for grammar, spelling, logic, Latin. I had reference books for higher level writing, too.

 

I'm not that far from the logic stage/middle school days as the son whose work I'm describing is only 15. But he is attending community college full time now (I just dropped him off for the first day of spring semester), so I'm feeling extra nostalgic for our homeschool days.

 

So, the details. As far as I can remember...

 

He had some outside classes during these years, and a couple of those teachers had some wonderful projects and ideas for their students to play with both language and math. He had some art classes, too. That would take the bulk of 2 days per week, and on those days I wouldn't do any math or other skills-type homeschooling. We would read, watch NOVA, Mythbusters or something equally interesting.

 

By the way, this son told me yesterday that he attributes his love and knowledge of science mostly to NOVA!

 

On our pure homeschool days we started with skills. Math, some grammar, AVKO spelling, logic workbooks. I never gave tests on any of it as I could tell if he either got it or didn't. Math was usually done on a big white board on the living room floor with the dog and me sitting near by. (I'd do math with his brother at a different time in the day.) This particular son liked to check his answers himself then figure out where he went wrong -- math to him is a big puzzle. Getting him to write all the steps to his work was next to impossible, and he FINALLY seemed to realize it wasn't some weird idea of mine when he took his first college level math class last semester!!

 

He loved playing with words and language, so he did almost every Critical Thinking Press series -- Red Herrings, those word puzzles where you start with one word and end with another at the bottom of the page after changing a single letter in each step. He did all the logic countdown and orbiting books and any other logic puzzle book I could find. He loved reading books like Eats Shoots and Leaves. We did Latin in 8th grade.

 

Then we'd read together and discuss books. So many discussions were simply me asking "what do you think?" and I'd generally get an earful. If I didn't, then I'd talk about the characters -- which ones I liked and why, what part made me laugh, what I like about the author's writing. That usually would get some responses, whether he agreed or not, and who he liked and why, or why the action was logical. Around age 12 he started to pester me to read a book he had discovered so he could have someone to talk to about it. If I really wanted delve deeper I used the questions from the Well Educated Mind to lead a conversation. It was really quite casual. We discussed tv and movies the same way as a family, and over time my boys got very good at discussing their specific opinions on why something was good or bad. Putting those opinions in the form of a persuasive essay was a natural and easy next step.

 

When I read aloud or we listened to classics together, I'd stop sometimes to see if he knew what something was. I'd have to remind them, for instance, that women didn't vote in the 1800s or that something wasn't invented yet, or describe a piece of clothing or furniture, or explain a strange custom.

 

I'd assign some kind of project each week whether writing, drawing, filling in maps or doing some science projects. Through middle school I'd ask for a narration or summary of something he read or did, or I'd say that I wanted to "count" some his creative writing as "school". I'd edit the writing that was for "school" and have him rewrite with all the corrections. It was important to not do that to everything he wrote as I didn't want him dreading me to read it, knowing I would make him fix it because his writing for pleasure needed to be for himself and something just for fun. I know the younger son was introduced to essays in middle school because I introduced it to him at the same time as his 9th grade brother.

 

I let sarcastic writing slide at this age. Neither of my kids could write a straight narration without snide editorial comments. I'd say "you can't do this in a real classroom or college", to which they'd inevitably roll their eyes in response and say "no duh, mom". It worried me -- outside teachers kept telling me "oh they have such a wonderful voice" and I'd think but they can't write a straight academic paper to save their life. Turns out they can, and they could all along. I'm glad I let them be sarcastic -- the papers and stories I've saved are a hoot.

 

In short, I trusted that by reading lots and casually talking about books my son would get comfortable with good literature, would recognize good writing and get a feel for what makes something good. I trusted that working on skills in small increments, consistently over a period of time, pays off. I trusted that his own interest led reading and watching of good tv was very worthwhile, but I trusted that I could introduce topics, periods of history, genres of literature and round out his general education. I trusted that gaps in his general knowledge were no big deal if he had the skills and desire to continue learning.

 

And, as I said, I am very nostalgic about these years. I didn't fret over preparing for high school with this kid. (I used up all my worry-wart energy on his older brother!) Instead of fretting, I enjoyed sharing books and birdwaching and visits to museums with him. He taught me how to play World of Warcraft, he introduced me to books I'd never have considered, and I got him hooked on Lost, Doctor Who and Sherlock Holmes.

 

Trust yourselves. Model that joy of learning and discovering. Deal with sullen young teens with lots of grace and humor. Do all that, and you too will produce wonderful and successful young people!

[Corraleno]

I'm happy to explain what I do to people who are interested in it. But what invariably happens is that those threads get derailed by people, who have no interest in doing the kinds of things that Karen and Jenn and I do, but who feel compelled to “point outâ€:

 

You can’t just let kids do whatever they want. They need to be pushed for their own good. (Yeah, we know. We do.)

 

There’s nothing wrong with textbooks and curriculum, you know. (We know; we use them.)

 

People shouldn’t panic thinking they have to make everything “interesting.†(No, but can we explain how we do that to people who want to do it?)

 

I don’t do interest-led learning and my kids are learning just fine, thank you. (Great, can we please explain the process to the people who are interested in it?)

 

There must be something really wrong with your kids if you have to teach them that way. (Actually we prefer to teach this way; Jenn & I have “normal†kids, too.)

 

I’m not just talking about the current “out of the box†thread; there’ve been plenty of others. It doesn’t seem possible to have this kind of discussion on this board without being forced to defend our choices to people who not only aren’t interested in teaching that way, but who seem compelled to “warn†other people away from it. I think I’ll start a blog and post what I do and what resources I use and a place to ask questions. That way, people who are interested in the process can read about it and I won't have to waste my time explaining what I do to people who aren't interested.

 

Jackie

[Capt_Uhura]

JennW - All I can say is "WOW" and thank you! And hugs for dropping him off at CC today.

[Capt_Uhura]

Jackie - I haven't been around here long enough to know the backstory. I would certainly LOVE LOVE LOVE it if you wrote a blog. Pretty please?

[Lostinabook]

I think I’ll start a blog and post what I do and what resources I use and a place to ask questions.

 

Jackie

 

Oh, *please* do this!!

[johnandtinagilbert]

Awaiting the link for that blog, Jackie. Don't ever think that although I live much more in the box than you, that you haven't inspired me to slowly step away. Without the posts from the o-of-the-boxers this past year, my son(s) would be in public school being crushed by the cardboard. You all have helped me think beyond the limits I've set for myself and I appreciate ever.so.greatly. My first step was making a combo. o-o-t-b + textbook science course this year. Not that I'm surprised, but each of my boys likes one aspect of the course (Opposite aspects of course :glare:).

 

I have to admit, too, that for *me* I think I would be more out of the box if I had a smaller family. I don't regret it all that way, just offering some honesty. There are times that I settle for school so another area can be exactly how we want it. Balance often gives way to ultimate, perfect, or best case scenario.

[Colleen in NS]

Jenn, thank you for that huge peek into the details of how you conducted education in those years - I've always read your posts with great interest. So many things you have said have been so helpful to me, esp. with regards to reading, discussion, and writing.

 

I'd assign some kind of project each week whether writing, drawing, filling in maps or doing some science projects.

 

Will you elaborate on this? Did you "use" this project time to rotate through various skills that weren't like math or grammar? How did you come up with ideas? I have Fridays for something along these lines (experiments, maps, learning to take notes, and a few other things), and it would be interesting to hear more.

 

I let sarcastic writing slide at this age. Neither of my kids could write a straight narration without snide editorial comments. I'd say "you can't do this in a real classroom or college", to which they'd inevitably roll their eyes in response and say "no duh, mom".

 

:lol::lol: This has happened here, too. And I am in the thick of the grace and humour thing. I'm really developing my sense of humour. :D

[JennW in SoCal]

Will you elaborate on this? Did you "use" this project time to rotate through various skills that weren't like math or grammar? How did you come up with ideas? I have Fridays for something along these lines (experiments, maps, learning to take notes, and a few other things), and it would be interesting to hear more.

 

 

True confession time. These projects, whether writing or maps or whatever, were usually the result of my worrying about output. I am great at the input -- books, videos, field trips and the like. Good at yakking about what we see and do and I'd know from our discussions my kids were soaking up all this knowledge. But there was very little to show for our schooling since I abhor worksheets and basic comprehension questions and so much math and even grammar (diagramming sentences) was done on a white board.

 

So I'd rack my brain to come up with output that would be a sample of their work, that would stretch their writing abilities or would introduce some further knowledge. And I struggled with ideas, but didn't fret over making everything wildly creative.

 

I love maps, so that was always a part of whatever we were studying. I'd print a blank map and have them use color pencils to put in the political boundaries or put in mountains and rivers. I'd have them show different routes different explorers used, or show different settlements in the US at a particular date or something along those lines.

 

I sometimes had them copy diagrams out of science encyclopedias -- cells, for instance, or parts of a flower. (We dissected our share of flowers, seeds and rose hips over the years.) I would turn to my Usborne Science Encyclopdia if I decided there was a topic that hadn't caught there interest and I didn't want to miss it. I had a box full of batteries and wires and they made electromagnets, circuits, built motors. They did lego robotics and built many a lego structure.

 

I always stopped by the teacher's page for whatever NOVA show had been on, and if there were cool projects, we'd do those.

 

I happen to have very creative and artistic kids (it's in the genes -- dad is an artist and I'm a musician) and they were always making movies or drawing comic books or creating their own hieroglyphs and secret codes. They loved to make their own maps and and even created their own mythological universe complete with epic stories behind its creation. I never assigned any of that -- I just got out of their way after making sure they had what ever supplies they needed.

 

And I used whatever we were reading or doing for writing projects. Nothing elaborate, just a summary of a section of a book, or of a project we did or place we visited. I picked out sentences for dictation to work on further cementing punctuation and spelling skills. I didn't outline as that didn't seem to be how my kids think -- I see the benefit in it, but not in our situation.

 

Does that help?

Edited January 25, 2011 by JennW in SoCal

[prairiegirl]

Jenn, again, thank you so much for explaining all that you did with your boys. This helps a great deal.

 

Jackie, I love the idea of a blog. Please let us know if/when you get one set up.

[swimmermom3]

True confession time. These projects, whether writing or maps or whatever, were usually the result of my worrying about output. I am great at the input -- books, videos, field trips and the like. Good at yakking about what we see and do and I'd know from our discussions my kids were soaking up all this knowledge. But there was very little to show for our schooling since I abhor worksheets and basic comprehension questions and so much math and even grammar (diagramming sentences) was done on a white board.

 

So I'd rack my brain to come up with output that would be a sample of their work, that would stretch their writing abilities or would introduce some further knowledge. And I struggled with ideas, but didn't fret over making everything wildly creative.

 

I love maps, so that was always a part of whatever we were studying. I'd print a blank map and have them use color pencils to put in the political boundaries or put in mountains and rivers. I'd have them show different routes different explorers used, or show different settlements in the US at a particular date or something along those lines.

 

ETA: Of course, in the "real world" they have to create "output." So there is that factor.

 

I sometimes had them copy diagrams out of science encyclopedias -- cells, for instance, or parts of a flower. (We dissected our share of flowers, seeds and rose hips over the years.) I would turn to my Usborne Science Encyclopdia if I decided there was a topic that hadn't caught there interest and I didn't want to miss it. I had a box full of batteries and wires and they made electromagnets, circuits, built motors. They did lego robotics and built many a lego structure.

 

I always stopped by the teacher's page for whatever NOVA show had been on, and if there were cool projects, we'd do those.

 

I happen to have very creative and artistic kids (it's in the genes -- dad is an artist and I'm a musician) and they were always making movies or drawing comic books or creating their own hieroglyphs and secret codes. They loved to Make their own maps and and even created their own mythological universe complete with epic stories behind its creation. I never assigned any of that -- I just got out of their way after making sure they had what ever supplies they needed.

 

And I used whatever we were reading or doing for writing projects. Nothing elaborate, just a summary of a section of a book, or of a project we did or place we visited. I picked out sentences for dictation to work on further cementing punctuation and spelling skills. I didn't outline as that didn't seem to be how my kids think -- I see the benefit in it, but not in our situation.

 

Does that help?

 

Does that help? Does that help? Oh boy, does it. Output is problematic here as well. The first year when we did Sonlight, I had little in the way of anything concrete to show people, but my boys could talk for hours about the history they learned, the books they read, and the experiments they performed. That was when my suspicion formed that "output" wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Still the fear remains that someone, sometime will ask to see what my kids have done. (Right, like who?) I appreciate alternative ideas, especially since I have the anti-worksheet children as well.:tongue_smilie:

[johnandtinagilbert]

Just wanted to pop in with an idea that corresponds with Jenn's post. Since many of you are finding you can discuss well with your children, but have problems generating "output," have you considered recording your conversations and then typing them up. I'm envisioning one heck of a "narration" or Socratic discussion question and answer page (thinking of a TOG format, specifically).The output would appear very WTMish, yet the means of gathering the narration would be more comfy for you and your dc. Perhaps this transcription could be moved into a long term project as well...like lecture note taking practice (boring, I know). You could also use the recording in a writing or grammar application. Perhaps b/c it was your dcs words, it may hold their interest.

 

I'd also like to thank Jenn again. You're making me feel better over here, b/c I so admire your style, but the more you type, I see we're doing a lot of your kind of stuff over here. Admittedly, you're much more creative by initiating it on your own, while I have to pull from resources to put it all together. Thank you for sharing.

[Colleen in NS]

I love maps, so that was always a part of whatever we were studying. I'd print a blank map and have them use color pencils to put in the political boundaries or put in mountains and rivers. I'd have them show different routes different explorers used, or show different settlements in the US at a particular date or something along those lines.

 

I sometimes had them copy diagrams out of science encyclopedias -- cells, for instance, or parts of a flower. (We dissected our share of flowers, seeds and rose hips over the years.) I would turn to my Usborne Science Encyclopdia if I decided there was a topic that hadn't caught there interest and I didn't want to miss it. I had a box full of batteries and wires and they made electromagnets, circuits, built motors. They did lego robotics and built many a lego structure.

 

I always stopped by the teacher's page for whatever NOVA show had been on, and if there were cool projects, we'd do those.

 

I happen to have very creative and artistic kids (it's in the genes -- dad is an artist and I'm a musician) and they were always making movies or drawing comic books or creating their own hieroglyphs and secret codes. They loved to Make their own maps and and even created their own mythological universe complete with epic stories behind its creation. I never assigned any of that -- I just got out of their way after making sure they had what ever supplies they needed.

 

And I used whatever we were reading or doing for writing projects. Nothing elaborate, just a summary of a section of a book, or of a project we did or place we visited. I picked out sentences for dictation to work on further cementing punctuation and spelling skills. I didn't outline as that didn't seem to be how my kids think -- I see the benefit in it, but not in our situation.

 

Does that help?

 

Yes, that was fun to read! In general, it's a similar lifestyle beyond the grammar/math/Latin/logic/writing part of things in our life. I like reading about different project ideas that kids and families do - sometimes something catches my eye as fun, and I'm off to try something new for fun!

Edited January 24, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[justamouse]

I think Radiobrain (love your avatar) hit the nail on the head. Being outside the box simply means trusting yourself. I trusted myself completely with general education, and turned to curricula for math -- especially algebra and up, and for grammar, spelling, logic, Latin. I had reference books for higher level writing, too.

 

 

I let sarcastic writing slide at this age. Neither of my kids could write a straight narration without snide editorial comments. I'd say "you can't do this in a real classroom or college", to which they'd inevitably roll their eyes in response and say "no duh, mom". It worried me -- outside teachers kept telling me "oh they have such a wonderful voice" and I'd think but they can't write a straight academic paper to save their life. Turns out they can, and they could all along. I'm glad I let them be sarcastic -- the papers and stories I've saved are a hoot.

 

In short, I trusted that by reading lots and casually talking about books my son would get comfortable with good literature, would recognize good writing and get a feel for what makes something good. I trusted that working on skills in small increments, consistently over a period of time, pays off. I trusted that his own interest led reading and watching of good tv was very worthwhile, but I trusted that I could introduce topics, periods of history, genres of literature and round out his general education. I trusted that gaps in his general knowledge were no big deal if he had the skills and desire to continue learning.

 

 

I'm kinda with Tina in that I've just hit in a curric (AO) that my kids love, and though I feel free to 'tweak' whatever I want, I'm with you on the math and Latin (and French).

 

The sarcastic writing? OMG, they are my most favorite book reports *ever*. I love them so (I have a ton, too, can you tell?). They had a good argument as to why they didn't enjoy the books-that's valid. They used humor to write why. Very cool. I will never throw those out. :D

 

The general education-if they hit a wall tomorrow I could easily put it aside and work something out. The maths and languages? Nope, I need them. I also see myself doing a lot of this stuff and consider it a part of the curric, but some of you seem to see it as out of the box (the map making).

 

And I DO appreciate these threads.

Edited January 24, 2011 by justamouse

[JennW in SoCal]

In case anyone is still reading and interested, I wanted to throw in a few lines about output and having a student prepared for college.

 

I did step up the output a bit in high school for both kids. They produced 2-3 persuasive essays a month, did some research topics as well, but for my quirky/ld kid I encouraged other kinds of output than papers. He made a mock WWII radio show complete with news, music and ads. He made a public service commercial (a video) on the benefits of drinking coffee for his health class and did a Mythbusters style video on the special effects used in the Disney Haunted Mansion rides complete with creating a ghost in our kitchen! He could write a research paper, could study for a final, but those are not his strong suits. He is attending a university where his creative side matters, not his weaker academic side.

 

My youngest is pursuing the more traditional college route. Even though I never gave exams in math, he did very well in his first college level math class, in fact was one of the top students in the class. It wasn't rocket science for him to figure out how to study and he is motivated to do well. He had an internship last fall that required him to produce a piece of writing every week for publication, and that was no problem for him either.

 

My point is that even though I didn't push the output to the same level as many homeschoolers, my kids wound up quite able to study and write -- to produce when they have to. They have the skills, and now they have a better motivation than mom. And they have the maturity to decide for themselves what matters.

 

There are times I think their success is sheer dumb luck!! I'm not entirely convinced I can take any credit for their success! But all your kind replies have been lovely to read today:D Thanks for letting me still hang out while I adjust to my post homeschool life.

[johnandtinagilbert]

In case anyone is still reading and interested, I wanted to throw in a few lines about output and having a student prepared for college.

 

I did step up the output a bit in high school for both kids. They produced 2-3 persuasive essays a month, did some research topics as well, but for my quirky/ld kid I encouraged other kinds of output than papers. He made a mock WWII radio show complete with news, music and ads. He made a public service commercial (a video) on the benefits of drinking coffee for his health class and did a Mythbusters style video on the special effects used in the Disney Haunted Mansion rides complete with creating a ghost in our kitchen! He could write a research paper, could study for a final, but those are not his strong suits. He is attending a university where his creative side matters, not his weaker academic side.

 

My youngest is pursuing the more traditional college route. Even though I never gave exams in math, he did very well in his first college level math class, in fact was one of the top students in the class. It wasn't rocket science for him to figure out how to study and he is motivated to do well. He had an internship last fall that required him to produce a piece of writing every week for publication, and that was no problem for him either.

 

My point is that even though I didn't push the output to the same level as many homeschoolers, my kids wound up quite able to study and write -- to produce when they have to. They have the skills, and now they have a better motivation than mom. And they have the maturity to decide for themselves what matters.

 

There are times I think their success is sheer dumb luck!! I'm not entirely convinced I can take any credit for their success! But all your kind replies have been lovely to read today:D Thanks for letting me still hang out while I adjust to my post homeschool life.

Now, I was reading along just fine until I read your new siggy...I hadn't noticed it yet and it made me cry...retired....:willy_nilly::blink::scared::crying:

[Capt_Uhura]

JennW - WE NEED YOu!!! We need to read and read and read the end of the road stories. You are an enormous help to us newbies. Thank you!

[JennW in SoCal]

Oh Tina it is weird for me too!! My youngest is turning 16 in a few months. I should still be homeschooling, but he wants all the science and math I can't possibly provide so is happily attending community college. Full time. He took the California version of the GED for teens, passed with flying colors and isn't looking back.

 

At least we still love sharing books. The literature discussions haven't ended, but my worrying about written output is a thing of the past!!

[johnandtinagilbert]

JennW - WE NEED YOu!!! We need to read and read and read the end of the road stories. You are an enormous help to us newbies. Thank you!

Yes. Funny how after 12 years in, I am a newbie (for high school) and still floundering!

[Capt_Uhura]

Tina, this is where I think we have it harder than PS teachers. Every year seems to bring new challenges. It doesn't really seem to get any easier....maybe even harder. Now things are easier w/ my 2nd son since he is quite similar to his older brother and the same curricula/methods seem to work equally well for him. But for my older, I'm busy trying to wrap my head around logic stage....expository vs creative vs persuasive vs 5 paragraph essay when to teach, to stay in the box, burn the box, break out of the box...move to a circle....:lol:

[johnandtinagilbert]

Tina, this is where I think we have it harder than PS teachers. Every year seems to bring new challenges. It doesn't really seem to get any easier....maybe even harder. Now things are easier w/ my 2nd son since he is quite similar to his older brother and the same curricula/methods seem to work equally well for him. But for my older, I'm busy trying to wrap my head around logic stage....expository vs creative vs persuasive vs 5 paragraph essay when to teach, to stay in the box, burn the box, break out of the box...move to a circle....:lol:

I know E.X.A.C.T.L.Y what you mean!

 

I'm over on the high school forum right now trying to hash out next year and science for my mathy, engineering kid. It's painful. Now that West Point is a real goal, I'm kinda sick to my stomach. I don't want my baby to go to war. Ever.:crying: But I'm so proud of him for wanting to be a patriot and that he has found something that truly suits him. As much as I"m born to be a teacher, he's born to be a:patriot: :crying:

[Rosie_0801]

I'm happy to explain what I do to people who are interested in it. But what invariably happens is that those threads get derailed by people, who have no interest in doing the kinds of things that Karen and Jenn and I do, but who feel compelled to “point out”:

 

You can’t just let kids do whatever they want. They need to be pushed for their own good. (Yeah, we know. We do.)

 

There’s nothing wrong with textbooks and curriculum, you know. (We know; we use them.)

 

People shouldn’t panic thinking they have to make everything “interesting.” (No, but can we explain how we do that to people who want to do it?)

 

I don’t do interest-led learning and my kids are learning just fine, thank you. (Great, can we please explain the process to the people who are interested in it?)

 

There must be something really wrong with your kids if you have to teach them that way. (Actually we prefer to teach this way; Jenn & I have “normal” kids, too.)

 

 

You know, I think you interpret these comments as personal attacks, nagging, lectures, finger wagging and other such annoyances at you when what people really mean are:

 

I can’t just let kids do whatever they want. They need to be pushed for their own good. Eek! How will I know what and when to push if there is no book telling me?

 

I don't think there’s anything wrong with textbooks and curriculum. At least I don't think so, I mean we have had successes using them. That can't really be bad can it? Eek. I'm overwhelmed and freaking out that textbooks are the wrong way to have successes and yes I know that is a stupid thing to think, but I'm just mentioned I'm overwhelmed.

 

How on earth am I going to be able to make everything “interesting?” Eek! I only have so much time in the day and I'm not very clever at thinking up creative ideas and I really want to be that clever at thinking up creative ideas and I just can't. And I don't even like Start Trek. I'm not a bad mother if I'd prefer to clean the toilet rather than write Star Trek maths problems, am I?

 

Oh no, not another thread about interest-led learning, I always feel inadequate after reading them.

 

I have no experience with kids like yours and I can't make any sense of what you're saying. I don't get it so much I can't even figure out how to how to ask sensible questions. I don't even know if I can believe what you're saying, but I don't mean I think you're lying. I hope I'm making sense, but I bet I'm going to annoy someone...

 

And then, of course, there are people who are just sticking their noses in without having read the thread properly, but I think most mean something like the above.

 

And there are people with three year olds who stick their noses into places far beyond their position in life. Someone should prohibit them from posting... (Fwiw, I stickybeak on these threads because I am creative-impaired and have a sneaking suspicion my three year old is going to need me to learn to be. I hope if I read enough of these threads, some of the basic stuff will become second nature to me through repetition!)

 

Rosie

[Capt_Uhura]

I know I keep asking questions or making comments b/c I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. For me, I need concrete examples. When the conversation first started, I was wondering how what they were discussing differed from unschooling. Yet no one seemed to be using that term. Then just a few weeks back, we had a thread where BTDT folks said they wished they had spent more time on skills rather than content prior to high school so I've been refocusing on skills this year. Then you read this thread and it sounds like content is more important and save skills for high school when it can be learned quicker and easier.

 

And it's tough to digest all of this when you're stuck in the middle. I wish we had had these conversations or that I had been on this forum back when DC was in K or 1st. But then he was PS and miserable and I didn't consider HSing until after 2nd grade.

 

Best case scenario would be to have this conversation face to face....then there wouldn't be so much confusion and misunderstanding. Anybody want to meet for coffee? :001_smile:

[elegantlion]

 

Best case scenario would be to have this conversation face to face....then there wouldn't be so much confusion and misunderstanding. Anybody want to meet for coffee? :001_smile:

 

Wouldn't coffee be wonderful!

 

I'm copying a post from my blog on how we approached Alice's Adventure in Wonderland. It strictly was a winging it activity, but was directed by how our conversations went as we read through Alice.

 

"Today Z and I discussed Alice. It was an awesome conversation. I didn't follow a literary analysis script, we didn't do busy work. I simply wrote out in marker three pages that held five questions. Then I copied the pages and handed a set to Z.

 

The first thing I did was draw a circle with 19 circles in a spoke around it. The center was obviously Alice and the nineteen circles were the characters in the story.

 

We discussed major and minor characters and I had him pick what he felt were the five major players in Alice's Adventure. Amazingly he picked the same five I did. He originally added the Mad Hatter to the list, the stopped and changed his mind. Excellent. Although I felt the Hatter was important I don't think he was in the top five.

 

This led to a discussion about Alice in Wonderland, the movie of earlier this year. We talked about creative license and pondered whether Lewis Carroll would have been impressed with the movie. We both agreed that he might not. Although we both enjoyed the Tim Burton movie it wasn't the book. It didn't hold all the play on words that permeated the book, it wasn't mocking the children's etiquette of today. We still enjoyed the expanded role of the Mad Hatter.

 

We also discussed the power and confidence Alice felt while growing and her diminished demeanor when she was small. We even discussed the way the use of drugs has been applied to Alice's trippy experience. He brought up The Matrix and pills used by Neo. I had Grace Slick running through my head.

 

We discussed the role of the Caterpillar and how the Cheshire Cat seemed to think the whole thing was nonsense.

 

We've started using Figuratively Speaking as one of our resources (great resource btw) and used the obvious one of personification while we read Alice.

 

All in all we had a great discussion for one of our first forays into literary analysis. Z had points to bring up, he defended his position well, and brought an interesting perspective to several topics. We enjoy a good play on words, he told me the book was very punny. I'm loving our conversations in school this year."

 

After reading through the threads of the past week I also wrote up a two week writing assignment. It uses some random and imaginative ways to study grammar and writing. We started it yesterday, which was not a stellar day overall. I'll post it after we go through the trial run, it may work, it may crash and burn.

 

I've found working with my son I need to have resources available and not plan everything to a T. For instance earlier this year we watched Clash of the Titans and Prince of Persia as part of school. We did a Venn Diagram to compare the two heroes. Totally spontaneous idea that turned into a great discussion on heroes and myths. Because he was, dare I say, engaged in the topic he spoke up, stated his opinions, and backed them up with information from the movies. It was a great difference from the "I don't know" and blank stare I have received in the past.

 

So the resources are maybe lit guides, other books, reference books, some background knowledge for myself. Maybe some activities that instead of being planned 36 weeks in advance just happen. I have a lot of books to pull from on my shelves (when all of my stuff is not in storage) and that helps. If I have to stop and see what the library has available or stop to do the "planned" activity, we lose the moment.

 

I find my ds is a lot like Michigan J. Frog, you know the singing frog from the cartoons. When engaged and interested he will sing "Hello, my honey..." When not engaged he sits there with a top hat and simply croaks at me.

[Avila]

I know I keep asking questions or making comments b/c I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. For me, I need concrete examples. When the conversation first started, I was wondering how what they were discussing differed from unschooling. Yet no one seemed to be using that term. Then just a few weeks back, we had a thread where BTDT folks said they wished they had spent more time on skills rather than content prior to high school so I've been refocusing on skills this year. Then you read this thread and it sounds like content is more important and save skills for high school when it can be learned quicker and easier.

 

And it's tough to digest all of this when you're stuck in the middle. I wish we had had these conversations or that I had been on this forum back when DC was in K or 1st. But then he was PS and miserable and I didn't consider HSing until after 2nd grade.

 

Best case scenario would be to have this conversation face to face....then there wouldn't be so much confusion and misunderstanding. Anybody want to meet for coffee? :001_smile:

 

:iagree: Is there a coffee smiley?

 

I can't really wrap my brain around it either. It sounds fascinating, but I worry that if I step too far into it, we will miss things we shouldn't. My middle DD hates school. She has hated it since preschool, and I wasn't even the one teaching her then! I know there has to be a way to engage her without giving me panic attacks in the middle of the night, but I haven't found it yet.

 

So I lurk on these threads. :D

 

I would hate for anyone to be shut out of these conversations because I have learned so much, especially from the people whom I am not automatically in agreement with! It challenges me, even when it takes awhile to sink in.

 

Please go re-read what Rosie said and come back and post some more. :001_smile:

[johnandtinagilbert]

I know I keep asking questions or making comments b/c I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. For me, I need concrete examples. When the conversation first started, I was wondering how what they were discussing differed from unschooling. Yet no one seemed to be using that term. Scared to post b/c I don't want to offend, but here goes! I'll start with my definition of unschooling: child led interest leads to the parent providing resources, but most of the learning is done by the child. The difference in what we were discussing in the other thread was a teacher is definitely still teaching, only they are finding ways to instruct that fall out of the "I bought such and such a curricula w/ a scope and sequence and followed the plan in the teacher's manual" "box" and instead, play to the strengths of their child. In the same fashion, those teaching by those means do not necessarily follow a "traditional" scope and sequence. The teacher has a goal in mind, offers materials and activities as the teaching tool to meet those goals, ensuring the student is engaged. Then just a few weeks back, we had a thread where BTDT folks said they wished they had spent more time on skills rather than content prior to high school so I've been refocusing on skills this year. What I think you're missing from the skills vs. content could also be labeled content or depth of content w/ skills as a focus, not necessarily depth of content as focus. Instead of spending week after week hammering out 10 papers and diving deeper and deeper into Ancient History, how about taking the entire unit writing ONE paper on the subject, breaking down sentences and paragraphs so your student fully understands what a good paragraph looks like. The paper is not as important as the process (skills vs. content). Instead of speeding through Alg 1 & 2 in middle school, how about taking 2 years on Alg 1 and concreting the skills necessary (since Alg is the foundation of higher level math). It doesn't mean that every child needs that much time, but the outcome of a zillion papers is less important that the process of writing well. Then you read this thread and it sounds like content is more important and save skills for high school when it can be learned quicker and easier. I don't think that was the point of thread (at least that's not what I got). What I got was still skills focused, but perhaps some think it's necessary to slow down, even to the point of finishing some skills in jr. high. I think that's a "whatever floats your boat." My dc have great writing skills that we have nurtured through 9th grade. We will spend the rest of high school hammering out deep and content rich writing assignments b/c we have acquired the skills (or will have acquired by end of 9th grade). I think the "wait its easier later" is very much a philosophical preference of education. The Moore books hit this pretty hard. I find myself somewhere in between.

 

And it's tough to digest all of this when you're stuck in the middle. I wish we had had these conversations or that I had been on this forum back when DC was in K or 1st. But then he was PS and miserable and I didn't consider HSing until after 2nd grade.

 

Best case scenario would be to have this conversation face to face....then there wouldn't be so much confusion and misunderstanding. Anybody want to meet for coffee? :001_smile:

Sure would. I am hoping to get together a bunch of WTM moms for the FL homeschool convention and enjoy a cup of java (or red wine :))

[johnandtinagilbert]

Wouldn't coffee be wonderful!

 

I'm copying a post from my blog on how we approached Alice's Adventure in Wonderland. It strictly was a winging it activity, but was directed by how our conversations went as we read through Alice.

 

"Today Z and I discussed Alice. It was an awesome conversation. I didn't follow a literary analysis script, we didn't do busy work. I simply wrote out in marker three pages that held five questions. Then I copied the pages and handed a set to Z.

 

The first thing I did was draw a circle with 19 circles in a spoke around it. The center was obviously Alice and the nineteen circles were the characters in the story.

 

We discussed major and minor characters and I had him pick what he felt were the five major players in Alice's Adventure. Amazingly he picked the same five I did. He originally added the Mad Hatter to the list, the stopped and changed his mind. Excellent. Although I felt the Hatter was important I don't think he was in the top five.

 

This led to a discussion about Alice in Wonderland, the movie of earlier this year. We talked about creative license and pondered whether Lewis Carroll would have been impressed with the movie. We both agreed that he might not. Although we both enjoyed the Tim Burton movie it wasn't the book. It didn't hold all the play on words that permeated the book, it wasn't mocking the children's etiquette of today. We still enjoyed the expanded role of the Mad Hatter.

 

We also discussed the power and confidence Alice felt while growing and her diminished demeanor when she was small. We even discussed the way the use of drugs has been applied to Alice's trippy experience. He brought up The Matrix and pills used by Neo. I had Grace Slick running through my head.

 

We discussed the role of the Caterpillar and how the Cheshire Cat seemed to think the whole thing was nonsense.

 

We've started using Figuratively Speaking as one of our resources (great resource btw) and used the obvious one of personification while we read Alice.

 

All in all we had a great discussion for one of our first forays into literary analysis. Z had points to bring up, he defended his position well, and brought an interesting perspective to several topics. We enjoy a good play on words, he told me the book was very punny. I'm loving our conversations in school this year."

 

After reading through the threads of the past week I also wrote up a two week writing assignment. It uses some random and imaginative ways to study grammar and writing. We started it yesterday, which was not a stellar day overall. I'll post it after we go through the trial run, it may work, it may crash and burn.

 

I've found working with my son I need to have resources available and not plan everything to a T. For instance earlier this year we watched Clash of the Titans and Prince of Persia as part of school. We did a Venn Diagram to compare the two heroes. Totally spontaneous idea that turned into a great discussion on heroes and myths. Because he was, dare I say, engaged in the topic he spoke up, stated his opinions, and backed them up with information from the movies. It was a great difference from the "I don't know" and blank stare I have received in the past.

 

So the resources are maybe lit guides, other books, reference books, some background knowledge for myself. Maybe some activities that instead of being planned 36 weeks in advance just happen. I have a lot of books to pull from on my shelves (when all of my stuff is not in storage) and that helps. If I have to stop and see what the library has available or stop to do the "planned" activity, we lose the moment.

 

I find my ds is a lot like Michigan J. Frog, you know the singing frog from the cartoons. When engaged and interested he will sing "Hello, my honey..." When not engaged he sits there with a top hat and simply croaks at me.

You're welcome to come and lead our discussions Any Time! That sounds great! I have also find that some days the last minute inspirations are the best!

[mcconnellboys]

I'm not sure exactly what "outside the box" really means, as we are all pretty unique in what we do (I think) and therefore, to me, that would make us ALL outside the box, LOL! So I'm guessing that y'all are referring to doing something outside the norm of what it seems that most, at least around here, are doing. If that's incorrect, then shoot me.....

 

There was no SOTW nor SWB's adult history books when my older son was at this stage. I used E.D. Hirsch's recommendations for history studies in second through fourth grades to give me some direction for our history and lit reading. As I recall, without going to pull planners from those years, we did study ancients in second grade, but then switched to Colonial America at the half. We did study the Medieval period in third grade, and then more American history at the half.

 

For fourth grade, I did NOT want to study ucky modern day history and wars. Besides, my son was enamored of wars in second grade and we'd read the entire Scholastic Encyclopedia of War already! Oy..... So as I cast around and thought about what we had NOT studied, I liked the look of Sonlight's fifth grade program that targets the "10/20" window of the world. Most of those places are never talked about in history books: Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia, Yemen, Tibet, etc., etc. BUT, I did NOT want to do a study in evangelism for the year. I just wanted to do history. So I used their idea and put together a study of all those countries that we did for at least half the year, if not all of it (we may have still done America, again, for half a year).

 

My son became completely enamored with the Dalai Lama for some reason, and wrote to him. One of his secretaries very kindly answered in short order. There was also a group of monks who came here at that time and did a Mandala for world peace at our local university. We attended to watch them work and my son took tons of photographs which he used for a 4-H photography entry at our county and state fairs later that summer. We also sought out other related things and found a Korean restaurant here in town where we ate. And I'm sure there were other things as well that I don't recall now....

 

In fifth grade, we began a full year ancients study, using SWB's ideas of Kingfisher, etc. for the first time. I continued to incorporate museum trips to view ancient treasures on display in surrounding areas, etc. as a means of discussing and reinforcing what we'd read about at home. We've always watched lots of history channel programming and history related movies, and reading about a topic or viewing a museum exhibit, etc. was always a sure way to get my boys involved in their own free play that revolved around that subject. This, in turn, would bring up new ideas and questions from them that we'd discuss further....

 

This son has auditory processing problems and by the time he was in sixth grade it was becoming apparent to me that he gained much more knowledge from reading himself than from my reading to him, so in spite of the fact that I hated to give that up (although I was bringing home my younger son that year, so began reading with him), I moved him into reading almost all of his own materials from that time forward.

 

I never did a real "literature study" with him. I have a half shelf of study guides. I have tons of references for online study guides. I started one once and it just seemed to kill all the joy of the literature (for both of us) so I stopped it almost immediately. Because it is difficult for him to answer outright questions, I would allow him to tell me about what he was reading and make comments or say "I wonder why" in a general sort of way about things to ellicit more info from him. He seemed to be much better able to respond for whatever reason when I couched my "questions" in that way.

 

He did have two wonderful years of an outside writing/lit class with a simply wonderful teacher who greatly encouraged his always very sound writing skills. I had turned him loose at home with the prompts from Writing Strands and stepped back on my critiquing to let him find his voice. There were virtually never any sorts of corrections needed regarding any basics, so style was really the only thing that needed work. It was good for him to have another voice and a different point of view to critique his writing. I also sought out other opportunities: when he was younger, this was a local/statewide Young Authors program; when he was older, perhaps a poetry contest held by our library, etc. Now days there are wonderful venues such as NaNoWriMo, etc. available to folks....

 

Because of his processing problems, learning languages and vocabulary are both very difficult tasks for him. This required some adjustments for his studies. I think that's another sort of "outside the box" adjustment that will be required for many children who experience various sorts of LD's.

 

I actually stopped Spanish during 7th and 8th grades with him so that he could concentrate more on Latin. Then he did BJU's high school level Spanish I in ninth grade and it seemed to prep him sufficiently that he was able to go into a Spanish II class without difficulty when he decided to return to a private school.

 

In spite of the fact that he finished up through high school level Latin II by ninth grade, he was out of Latin completely for 3 years before going to college. He had to start over again last semester with a Latin I course and he dreads beginning Latin II next week. I am just hopeful that the work he did earlier in it will help him be able to pick it back up without too much difficulty. When he doesn't do something on a regular basis for about 6 months, he seems to almost completely lose it....

 

Even though he did do a vocab program while he was at home, I think that his extensive reading did more to help him be able to decipher words in context than the program he used. Again, these things may be more applicable to someone who shares his sort of processing difficulties than to the general public....

 

There were not many outside group activities here for pre-teens/teens at the time he was in 7th-9th grades, those that were here were a rather closed set of individuals who would not let others in, so it was rather difficult to find outside experiences for him, but I tried. He did homework help with some ESL kids at a local branch of our library for a while and also served as a docent at our home branch for a while. We did holiday parties for a local daycare that serves low income households for a while. We visited a nearby nursing home that houses more low income individuals, many of whom have no real families.... He has helped me work in a community garden that we tend to help those in need, as well....

 

He didn't really seem to find his niche until he started playing music with some other guys and they have played concerts to raise money for various entities in past. He also has swum for many years and I guess a natural progression of that was that he received lifeguard certification and will be moving into management this upcoming summer.

 

There were no good opportunities, however, in any of this, for him to get in any public speaking sorts of experience and he has always felt very uncomfortable speaking in front of an audience. The solution for me became theatre. He has always loved theatre and has participated in a local children's theatre here almost since we moved here.

 

A homeschool group formed up a theatre company and began doing a half year or at times even a full year of theatre related activities leading up the a production in the spring. He participated in seventh through ninth grades, also continued participating during summers and school breaks with the children's theatre, and then joined a production company his sophomore year of high school.

 

All this gave him "stealth" public speaking experience in front of various size audiences. When he was lost in his role, he didn't feel so self-conscious about speaking in front of others. I think this has served him well since he's in an environment now where he MUST participate in class discussions on a daily basis. He seems to be falling into the rhythm of it without too much difficulty.

 

So those are a few of the things that I did with my oldest to try to obtain the skill sets I thought he needed in perhaps not a standard, workbook or classroom sort of way....

[prairiegirl]

I know I keep asking questions or making comments b/c I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. For me, I need concrete examples. When the conversation first started, I was wondering how what they were discussing differed from unschooling. Yet no one seemed to be using that term. Then just a few weeks back, we had a thread where BTDT folks said they wished they had spent more time on skills rather than content prior to high school so I've been refocusing on skills this year. Then you read this thread and it sounds like content is more important and save skills for high school when it can be learned quicker and easier.

 

 

Best case scenario would be to have this conversation face to face....then there wouldn't be so much confusion and misunderstanding. Anybody want to meet for coffee? :001_smile:

 

I want to caution you against doing what others say just because they say it worked for them. It may have worked very well for them but that does not mean it is going to work for you or for your children. You have to take into account how your children learn best. I read that thread about focusing on skills and I knew that my kids would shrivel up if I had them only work on skills and did nothing or very little on content. What was being discussed on the other thread was more of a balance. To my understanding, they weren't advocating just content and no skills until high school. They were talking about waiting on some skills until the child was emotionally and academically ready to learn those skills. When the time comes, the skills can be taught through content. You can teach outlining, grammar, writing skills through content.

 

Now, some kids work very well with curriculum, but others zone out when curriculum is used. For these children, nothing is sticking or being learned. Curriculum is a waste of time. I have three children like this, not for every subject (Praise God) but for some subjects I have to rethink how I am teaching. I still buy curriculum but I buy it for me so that I can teach it to my kids in a way that works for them. This is so scary for me. It takes alot of my time and alot of my brain matter but it is working, so I need to focus on that.

 

If your children are fine with focusing on skill, then keep on with it. But if they are rebelling or if it is going over their heads then maybe you need to step back and re-evaluate things. There is no right way to do this, only the way that works for you and your children. That is the joy of homeschooling.

[prairiegirl]

Paula, I loved reading about your Alice in Wonderland discussion. What fun!

[Capt_Uhura]

 

I've found working with my son I need to have resources available and not plan everything to a T. For instance earlier this year we watched Clash of the Titans and Prince of Persia as part of school. We did a Venn Diagram to compare the two heroes. Totally spontaneous idea that turned into a great discussion on heroes and myths. Because he was, dare I say, engaged in the topic he spoke up, stated his opinions, and backed them up with information from the movies. It was a great difference from the "I don't know" and blank stare I have received in the past.

 

So the resources are maybe lit guides, other books, reference books, some background knowledge for myself. Maybe some activities that instead of being planned 36 weeks in advance just happen. I have a lot of books to pull from on my shelves (when all of my stuff is not in storage) and that helps. If I have to stop and see what the library has available or stop to do the "planned" activity, we lose the moment.

 

 

You see? It's not just me!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the way I work as well but it makes me feel scatterbrained lol. I guess I have to be willing to let go of the schedule more often.

[elegantlion]

Paula, I loved reading about your Alice in Wonderland discussion. What fun!

 

Thank you, it was a blast.

 

You see? It's not just me!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the way I work as well but it makes me feel scatterbrained lol. I guess I have to be willing to let go of the schedule more often.

 

I feel energized when I teach in that manner, but I also feel like a monkey swinging through the trees too, no real reason, possibly stuck in the jungle. I'm kind of coming to the conclusion I can schedule in "do something related to what you're reading" and feel better about whatever happens. We tend to find the connections that way.

 

Just yesterday we started the book "Cavalcade of Dragons" and in the introduction Roger Green talks about leopards being drawn in the "far off times" as he says. He said they didn't look like leopards, but more like cats with grins. He then states that was certainly true in Cheshire. Ds and I both cracked up as I presume that is where the character of the Cheshire cat derived from. Connection, bam, wasn't even looking for it.

 

Now we trudged through algebra today with a grin or smile.

[elegantlion]

You're welcome to come and lead our discussions Any Time! That sounds great! I have also find that some days the last minute inspirations are the best!

 

Oh, I'll bring the popcorn :lurk5: and some paper and colored markers to share, so we can all play and learn together.

 

My son became completely enamored with the Dalai Lama for some reason, and wrote to him. One of his secretaries very kindly answered in short order. There was also a group of monks who came here at that time and did a Mandala for world peace at our local university. We attended to watch them work and my son took tons of photographs which he used for a 4-H photography entry at our county and state fairs later that summer. We also sought out other related things and found a Korean restaurant here in town where we ate. And I'm sure there were other things as well that I don't recall now....

 

 

There were not many outside group activities here for pre-teens/teens at the time he was in 7th-9th grades, those that were here were a rather closed set of individuals who would not let others in, so it was rather difficult to find outside experiences for him, but I tried. He did homework help with some ESL kids at a local branch of our library for a while and also served as a docent at our home branch for a while. We did holiday parties for a local daycare that serves low income households for a while. We visited a nearby nursing home that houses more low income individuals, many of whom have no real families.... He has helped me work in a community garden that we tend to help those in need, as well....

 

 

All this gave him "stealth" public speaking experience in front of various size audiences. When he was lost in his role, he didn't feel so self-conscious about speaking in front of others. I think this has served him well since he's in an environment now where he MUST participate in class discussions on a daily basis. He seems to be falling into the rhythm of it without too much difficulty.

 

So those are a few of the things that I did with my oldest to try to obtain the skill sets I thought he needed in perhaps not a standard, workbook or classroom sort of way....

 

Love these examples! Thanks for sharing.

[Colleen in NS]

When the conversation first started, I was wondering how what they were discussing differed from unschooling. Yet no one seemed to be using that term. Then just a few weeks back, we had a thread where BTDT folks said they wished they had spent more time on skills rather than content prior to high school so I've been refocusing on skills this year. Then you read this thread and it sounds like content is more important and save skills for high school when it can be learned quicker and easier.

 

And it's tough to digest all of this when you're stuck in the middle.

 

Well, you see three options here, right? And then there are a million shades in between them. I think it's one of those things where you have to look at your family, your values, and your goals, and decide how you want to proceed. People argue for their perspective all the time here, and some people are pretty convincing. I have a few favourite posters that I like to read because of how they talk about their perspectives - each poster falls in a different shade (that I mentioned above) - and I always think, "I do a bit of what so-n-so is talking about, and so-n-so, and so-n-so." But I blend it up for my own family. I personally feel that academic skills are important for my family, but I also feel that learning content is important, and I feel that learning lifeskills and doing projects and having time for play and fun are all important. So, the "official school time" time chunk in my home is full of skill learning, as efficient as I can make it (and I do need to schedule this, or I'd slack). But it's not 7-8 hours a day. The rest of the day is more fluid for the other things (content comes from reading time and during writing skill practice, lifeskills come when they do chores or set the table or help me bake or follow dh around while he fixes things, play and projects come during time not scheduled for "official school time" or meals or chores.

 

They produced 2-3 persuasive essays a month,

 

Capt_Uhura, then I read things like this, and it helps me to see specifics of how BTDT people do things. JennW happens to be a poster I read a lot, because I really like her way of doing things. She makes things sound so lively and interesting to me! So, when I read that her kids did about 2-3 persuasive essays per month for high school, I figure, by all the other interesting and impressive things I've read about her kids, that I might decide not to expect 3 persuasive essays a week for high school. But I might. But I don't know yet. But I can glean from others' BTDT and make my own decisions, taking into consideration my kids and what others' successes have been.

 

I just keep on reading people's stories here on the forums, and glean what I can. We Moms are pretty smart regarding our children - we can make good decisions about them (and fix mistakes!).

[Capt_Uhura]

I want to caution you against doing what others say just because they say it worked for them. It may have worked very well for them but that does not mean it is going to work for you or for your children. You have to take into account how your children learn best. I read that thread about focusing on skills and I knew that my kids would shrivel up if I had them only work on skills and did nothing or very little on content. What was being discussed on the other thread was more of a balance. To my understanding, they weren't advocating just content and no skills until high school. They were talking about waiting on some skills until the child was emotionally and academically ready to learn those skills. When the time comes, the skills can be taught through content. You can teach outlining, grammar, writing skills through content.

 

If your children are fine with focusing on skill, then keep on with it. But if they are rebelling or if it is going over their heads then maybe you need to step back and re-evaluate things. There is no right way to do this, only the way that works for you and your children. That is the joy of homeschooling.

 

They aren't rebelling .... much....they mutinied yesterday b/c they wanted to spend the day reading so I let them.

 

WEll, what I got out of most of the conversation is that to take your DC's learning style into account and adjust accordingly. If DC is bored silly or just not getting something, change the curriculum, or change how you teach it, or delay teaching it. Don't follow a predetermined schedule. For some that means delaying skills b/c of fine motor issues and doing a lot orally, for others means rather than taking a nice linear path (4 year history rotation), they infuse skills into DCs interest. I know Jackie has spoken about how her DS didn't like history but he learns plenty of history through looking at what was going on in the world concerning a scientific principle he's studying. That's why I asked for a plan for writing W/OUT grade levels so I could place DS and see where he needs to be w/out getting stuck on needing to be able to write a 5-paragraph essay by the end of 5th grade (my districts guidelines).

 

Also, I didn't mean to imply I changed to focus on skills b/c of what others said....rather I felt validated after reading it that some felt they should have focused on skills more. I had decided months ago that it was time to add more writing and mechanics for my 5th grader.

[swimmermom3]

I want to caution you against doing what others say just because they say it worked for them. It may have worked very well for them but that does not mean it is going to work for you or for your children. You have to take into account how your children learn best. I read that thread about focusing on skills and I knew that my kids would shrivel up if I had them only work on skills and did nothing or very little on content. What was being discussed on the other thread was more of a balance. To my understanding, they weren't advocating just content and no skills until high school. They were talking about waiting on some skills until the child was emotionally and academically ready to learn those skills. When the time comes, the skills can be taught through content. You can teach outlining, grammar, writing skills through content.

 

Now, some kids work very well with curriculum, but others zone out when curriculum is used. For these children, nothing is sticking or being learned. Curriculum is a waste of time. I have three children like this, not for every subject (Praise God) but for some subjects I have to rethink how I am teaching. I still buy curriculum but I buy it for me so that I can teach it to my kids in a way that works for them. This is so scary for me. It takes alot of my time and alot of my brain matter but it is working, so I need to focus on that.

 

If your children are fine with focusing on skill, then keep on with it. But if they are rebelling or if it is going over their heads then maybe you need to step back and re-evaluate things. There is no right way to do this, only the way that works for you and your children. That is the joy of homeschooling.

 

Julia,

 

This is great advice and certainly worth keeping in mind. If the skills thread is the one I am thinking of, I would like to clarify one thing. I don't think anyone proposed working on only skills. I do know that I have stated that if I had to do it over again for one of my children, we would have spent less time on content, which we both love, and more time on skills. It is so easy and fun to stay focused in these years on content. However, high school is a difficult time to try and teach fractions, percentages, decimals, and good paragraph construction. Often, the work the students are doing requires that skills like these have been mastered.

 

My opinion is based only off of my own experience and regrets. My oldest son has the intellectual ability to handle AP US History. He does not have writing skills to manage the test. He came home in 7th grade and returned to the ps system in 9th. We did so much remedial work rebuilding skills that he had a very successful freshman year, but as the work gets harder, his skills aren't supporting him. I really wish I had focused even more on those skills while he was home. He will spend all next summer drilling math and working on his writing skills. It's a drag and it certainly doesn't suit his learning style but his goal is a military academy.

 

I am always on the lookout for ideas like those that Jenn, mcconnellboys, and elegantlion have shared to help cement skills in a fashion more suitable for the way my kids learn.

 

Anyway, lots of rambling to say yes, balance is definitely needed and you do need to do what works for your kids regardless of what anyone else is doing. And Julia, I forgot to tell you on the other thread, but it sounds like you are doing a great job with your kids.:grouphug:

[Capt_Uhura]

Tina - Yes, I got the same things you got after going further into the thread. I meant those were my initial thoughts and once folks starting clarifying and giving examples, I got a clearer picture. It's like a post I read once where the parents don't teach math. I thought "huh?" Then once folks ask for clarification, you realize that the family lives and breathes math. The kids follow the stock market, they keep their own bank account from 4yrs old, dinner table talk is challenging each other w/ math problems. SO the "We don't teach math" was really "We don't teach math with a curriculum." I think something similar happened in the grammar thread. It's not that anyone advocated not teaching grammar, it's just that some teach it whenever it comes up and others require a road map and directions on how to get there.

 

The skills thing is a bit more problematic for me. I'm all for delaying teaching something that is more appropriate to teach later. However, the original plan 3yrs ago was for DS to go back to school for Middle School which is next year. Our district wants a 5 paragraph essay by the end of 5th grade. If he goes back, I want to help him be successful. Not that I imagine that he'll have any issue w/ 5 paragraph essays.....but I'd like his writing skills to be on par w/ average 6th graders.

[Capt_Uhura]

Well, you see three options here, right? And then there are a million shades in between them. I think it's one of those things where you have to look at your family, your values, and your goals, and decide how you want to proceed. People argue for their perspective all the time here, and some people are pretty convincing. I have a few favourite posters that I like to read because of how they talk about their perspectives - each poster falls in a different shade (that I mentioned above) - and I always think, "I do a bit of what so-n-so is talking about, and so-n-so, and so-n-so." But I blend it up for my own family.

 

 

Capt_Uhura, then I read things like this, and it helps me to see specifics of how BTDT people do things. JennW happens to be a poster I read a lot, because I really like her way of doing things. She makes things sound so lively and interesting to me! So, when I read that her kids did about 2-3 persuasive essays per month for high school, I figure, by all the other interesting and impressive things I've read about her kids, that I might decide not to expect 3 persuasive essays a week for high school. But I might. But I don't know yet. But I can glean from others' BTDT and make my own decisions, taking into consideration my kids and what others' successes have been.

.

 

Yes, I have a few posters who I always read b/c I feel like we have the same goals in mind and/or similar kids. I also lurk on the high school board to read threads from those that have BTDT and what worked and didn't work for them.

 

So far I've really stressed content over skills b/c m kids were young. But with my 5th grader, and possibly going back to PS for Middle school next year, I felt like we need to shift the balance more towards the middle and do more skills....which meant less time for the fun stuff like Risk, LEGO Nxt, Druidawn. I felt like while his science knowledge is years ahead of most kids, if he goes back to school, be it middle or high school w/out the skills to match, I'll be setting him up for failure. I felt like 5th grade was a time to start discussing good paragraph structure. We used Paragraph Town to get us started and now we discuss good paragraphs in literature and science and history.

 

Prairiegirl - I think it definitely is a balance between skills and content. I would never teach skills and no content. Is that even possible? This year I just needed to shift that balance. In prior years we spent 2-3+ hrs/day on science watching science shows, discussing, doing experiments, reading science books, playing games. We just don't have that kind of time this year. Math has to get done, writing has to get done, spelling, grammar, logic. I'm trying to shift over to only writing in content areas and am considering dropping WWE4 for my DS10. What I hear from Jackie and KarenAnne is that they make that kind of time and I'm trying to figure out how. I'm not going to stress over if we don't make it to Middle Ages by June b/c we've spent a lot of time on Sumer and reading different version of Gilgamesh. So that's what I mean by not stressing content so much. I don't have to cover it all...I need to just enjoy the ride and skip ahead if need be!

 

Also, I think a lot of it for me is not understanding terms. You mention you can teach writing, grammar, and outlining through content. What does that mean exactly? I take that to mean something we did last year. I took notes in a quasi outline form while we watched the 2hr documentary on Ardipithicus. Occasionally I stopped and told him why I added something. He would also ask to make sure I added something he thought was important. I then showed him how weeks later, I could take a portion of outline and write a paragraph and how it really helped to refresh my memory about the show. Now we are outlining from K12 Human Odyssey as part of our history. For my son, he is doing well w/ WWS method of being given details and having to construct a theme and then write from those details. It frees him from coming up w/ his own content.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Capt_Uhura

[FairProspects]

Just wanted to let you all know that I admire what you are doing and hope I can implement some of it as well as we wade through grammar stage and move into logic stage eventually!

 

I love that we have found GEMS science from some of you, and we are working towards a more project based math as well, none of which I would have had the courage to try were it not for the posts of people with kids much older than mine who did it and did not permanently screw them up, so thank you!

[Capt_Uhura]

Julia,

 

This is great advice and certainly worth keeping in mind. If the skills thread is the one I am thinking of, I would like to clarify one thing. I don't think anyone proposed working on only skills. I do know that I have stated that if I had to do it over again for one of my children, we would have spent less time on content, which we both love, and more time on skills. It is so easy and fun to stay focused in these years on content. However, high school is a difficult time to try and teach fractions, percentages, decimals, and good paragraph construction. Often, the work the students are doing requires that skills like these have been mastered.

 

Arrgh I've managed to derail a thread again by not expressing my thoughts clearly. I should stop posting in these threads. I didn't mean to imply that I would teach only skills and that content wasn't important or that I gleaned that from anyone's post. Rather, I'm trying to find that balance. Until now, I focused on content. I considered it a great HSing day if DS did WWE, we watched a science show and discussed it, I did a read aloud from literature, we read some history or watched a history show, we checked off a worksheet in GWG, went on a 2hr hike, and did math. For years we've been mostly science and then the boys developed a love of history as well. We did everything orally. The only writing my boys had been doing was in WWE. I felt that 5th grade was a time to start working on skills...slowly. So I've been learning all I can the past month about teaching writing, what's expected for middle schoolers etc.

 

DS is ready for some algebra concepts but his computation skills are really going to hinder him. I've let it go until now but I think I would be doing him a disservice if I didn't start to focus on those skills, as much as he abhors it. Same with writing. If he goes to Middle School next year, or doesn't go back until high school, even if he's ready for college level science but doesn't have the skills to be successful, I've failed him. So I'm looking to Jackie and KarenANne and others who have found that balance to help me figure out where it is for my family and the way my boys learn.

 

I am always on the lookout for ideas like those that Jenn, mcconnellboys, and elegantlion have shared to help cement skills in a fashion more suitable for the way my kids learn.

:

YES!!!!!! As much as I'd love for my oldest to work more independently....it's just not him. He learns best w/ interaction, discussion. Programs that teach to the student and only expects the parent to check over answers and make sure it's getting done, don't go over so well with him. When I read posts that say "My kid just loves to take his workbook and go off and get it done. I think "WOW." Not my kid. He would never get anything done and if he did, he wouldn't retain it without discussion.

 

Time to press play.......

Edited January 26, 2011 by Capt_Uhura

[prairiegirl]

. And Julia, I forgot to tell you on the other thread, but it sounds like you are doing a great job with your kids.:grouphug:

 

Thank you, Lisa. :001_smile:

[Greta Lea]

My son has learning differences in reading and math. I don't push him to be where other kids his age are, but instead am letting him enjoy the journey of learning right where he needs to be.

 

He's in 7th grade this year. Here's what he's been doing this year...

 

-Math: ALEKS online

-One Year Bible for Kids (reads daily...orally narrates often)

-Story of the World vol. II (reads one section a day, narrates orally 4x a week, writes one written narration a week)

-Science: Currently reading CLP Nature Reader book 4 (really struggles with comprehension in science, but is enjoying *and* learning from this book...reads and narrates orally each day, key word outline and written paragraph one day a week)

-Literature read so far this year: Robin Hood by Green (took him FOREVER to read this since it was a HUGE challenging read that HE chose for himself...very proud of himself). Follow my Leader and currently reading Hatchet (has reread the entire Diary of Wimpy Kid series in his free time).

-Megawords: phonics, spelling and a little vocab. development

-Writing: Currently he's doing written narrations 3x a week and a writing prompt the other 1 or 2 days, also dictation or copywork instead of writing prompt sometimes.

 

Jen...I loved you idea of using the Runkle Geography for geography and earth science. I think my ds would love that for next year!