Questions about CAP's logic sequence

[Sweet Home Alabama]

I've been researching logic for dd who will be in 8th grade next year. I so appreciate all the help you ladies have given to me.

 

From reading many posts about logic, I've been directed toward CAP's logic books.

 

Could you all tell me what you like/dislike about them? I know Art of Argument has been revised. Do you like the revision? (The first book included topics like abortion which, I gather, persuaded many to drop this course.)

 

I'm not sure if I would use Art of Argument or Fallacy Detective/Thinking Toolbox to study fallacies. Comments??? Afterwards, which do you like to use first: Argument Builder or Discovery of Deduction???

 

I'm just trying to get a sense of how you all use CAP logic. Their material looks easier to digest than Traditional Logic.... TL seemed very much out of our league. CAP looks a lot better.

 

I'm very inexperienced in logic. We've never studied it. I truly appreciate your help!

 

So.... would you tell me about CAP's logic sequence... and the possibilities of substituting FD/TT for AoA?:001_smile:

[Sweet Home Alabama]

I can't comment on the CAP materials as I've never used them, but I just wanted to throw a comment your direction:

 

TT/FD and AoA are studies in fallacies, which is NOT the same thing as a study in formal logic. Both Introductory Logic (Canon Press) and Traditional Logic (Memoria Press) are courses in formal logic. I would not trade a study in formal logic for a study in fallacies and consider them to be equal.

 

However, if you intend to use TT/FD or AoA as a warm-up to formal logic, that would work out just fine.

 

 

Thanks, Kensa.... I thought about that after I went to bed last night. It was soooo late!

 

Yes, I would do either FD/TT or AoA for informal logic (8th grade). Then I would do either Argument Builder or Discovery of Deduction for formal logic (high school). Or... FD/TT in 1st semester (one of them, I guess) and move into formal logic (AB or DoD after that) in 2nd semester.

 

AoA looks a little bit heavy. FD/TT looks like it would be more fun. Believe me... we need something that won't turn anyone off of logic study. Our schedule for next year is already full, and I want to avoid adding another heavy text or more blanks to fill or more essay questions to write. That would be a recipe for disaster! We need something lite, funny and quick.

 

I looked at TL, and from what i could see, I don't think it would work for us. When I looked at CAP books, they looked better to me. It was a difference in the layout of the book and the wording. It looked more concise and understandable. It also seemed to have obvious relevance to real-world application. That goes a long way for anyone studying something as dense as logic.

 

I just need to know if I'm discerning these books correctly or if I'm way off base. If anyone has used these books, please tell me how they have worked for you with specific examples.... especially frequency/method of using hot topics like abortion.

Edited January 23, 2011 by Sweet Home Alabama

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Is there anyone who can tell me about CAP logic??? :bigear:

[4wildberrys]

Yes. My dd used both Art of Argument and Argument Builder and I really wasn't impressed. There are no clear cut lessons and a lot of the topics were geared to classroom kids and topics at schools like school uniforms. These Fallacy topics are covered MUCH better with The Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox. The lessons are clear cut and to the point and you can either work through the exercises with your student or they can do it on their own. We are using Memoria Press Traditional Logic materials this year and they are great! Logic is not the same thing as fallacies, as is very clear to me this year. I don't personally recommend the CAP 'logic' products at all.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Yes. My dd used both Art of Argument and Argument Builder and I really wasn't impressed. There are no clear cut lessons and a lot of the topics were geared to classroom kids and topics at schools like school uniforms. These Fallacy topics are covered MUCH better with The Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox. The lessons are clear cut and to the point and you can either work through the exercises with your student or they can do it on their own. We are using Memoria Press Traditional Logic materials this year and they are great! Logic is not the same thing as fallacies, as is very clear to me this year. I don't personally recommend the CAP 'logic' products at all.

 

Thank you so much for this although I'm so sorry to hear this news. At least I know one thing.... If we study logic for next year, I'll plan on FD/TT for informal logic.

 

Would you mind a follow-up question? I ask because when I tried to compare TL with CAP Argument Builder/Discovery of Deductions, TL seemed so much harder to understand. CAP AB/DoD seemed easier to understand AND seemed to have more relevant application to rhetorical skills.

 

(I do understand your opinion about informal logic.)

 

So, my question.... Would you help me understand the difference between the formal logics: TL and AB/DoD.

 

I truly appreciate your help!

[4wildberrys]

The differences so far are that TL goes through the Simple Apprehension, Judgement and then Deductive Inference---meaning that the book teaches formal logic as opposed to informal fallacies. The exercises in this book really get you thinking. The Art of Argument is more of an 'argument building' book that helps your student construct a good argument on a topic, like school uniforms. The approach is just so different. I was really intimidated to even try the TL book because it sounded hard and really dry----but we are really enjoying it! In fact, there is a disclaimer at the beginning of the book that the first 3 chapters are really abstract and the hardest---which is totally true, but we made it through and are now on Chapter 4 and it's so interesting. My son does one day a week of The Fallacy Detective too, which is the informal fallacies and just so totally different. Here is a quote from the intro of the TL book:

" Because informal logic lacks a systematic structure, some of the benefits of rigorous logic instruction are absent from this study......Traditional logic trains the mind to respect truth, and indeed assumes a Christian view of truth throughout, which is one of the reasons it appealed to the Medieval schoolmen.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

The differences so far are that TL goes through the Simple Apprehension, Judgement and then Deductive Inference---meaning that the book teaches formal logic as opposed to informal fallacies. The exercises in this book really get you thinking. The Art of Argument is more of an 'argument building' book that helps your student construct a good argument on a topic, like school uniforms. The approach is just so different. I was really intimidated to even try the TL book because it sounded hard and really dry----but we are really enjoying it! In fact, there is a disclaimer at the beginning of the book that the first 3 chapters are really abstract and the hardest---which is totally true, but we made it through and are now on Chapter 4 and it's so interesting. My son does one day a week of The Fallacy Detective too, which is the informal fallacies and just so totally different. Here is a quote from the intro of the TL book:

" Because informal logic lacks a systematic structure, some of the benefits of rigorous logic instruction are absent from this study......Traditional logic trains the mind to respect truth, and indeed assumes a Christian view of truth throughout, which is one of the reasons it appealed to the Medieval schoolmen.

 

 

4wildberries,thank you! Does your opinion about AoA also apply to The Argument Builder and The Discovery of Deduction???

 

I am convinced that TL is a great book. I have read of soooo many people using it. I'm just trying to get a bottom line on The Argument Builder and The Discovery of Deduction.

 

I'm sorry to ask again.....:confused1:

 

I had thought about using FD/TT for informal logic and possibly The Argument Builder or The Discovery of Deduction the next year for formal logic. If TL is so overwhelmingly loved more, I'll certainly have to reconsider.

[4wildberrys]

4wildberries,thank you! Does your opinion about AoA also apply to The Argument Builder and The Discovery of Deduction???

 

I am convinced that TL is a great book. I have read of soooo many people using it. I'm just trying to get a bottom line on The Argument Builder and The Discovery of Deduction.

 

I'm sorry to ask again.....:confused1:

 

I had thought about using FD/TT for informal logic and possibly The Argument Builder or The Discovery of Deduction the next year for formal logic. If TL is so overwhelmingly loved more, I'll certainly have to reconsider.

 

We didn't use DoD, so can't comment on that. But my dd really did not enjoy the Argument Builder because of the type of assignments. There was a HUGE argumentative writing assignment on a 'school' issue---I think school uniforms. The TM was really no help because there are no sort of lessons plans or teaching suggestions, simply answers. It wasn't horrible, but it certainly wasn't what I was expecting as far as depth of material.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

We didn't use DoD, so can't comment on that. But my dd really did not enjoy the Argument Builder because of the type of assignments. There was a HUGE argumentative writing assignment on a 'school' issue---I think school uniforms. The TM was really no help because there are no sort of lessons plans or teaching suggestions, simply answers. It wasn't horrible, but it certainly wasn't what I was expecting as far as depth of material.

 

 

Got It!:D Ok, well, I'm glad I asked. If we do FD/TT in 8th, I certainly have time to decide on 9th...... no doubt, TL is popular. It must be popular for a good reason.

[ChristineMM]

I'm reading this thread today bc wondering after Art of Argument if should do Discovery of Deduction or Argument Builder.

 

I taught a homeschool co-op class that ended last month using Art of Argument (2010 revised edition) and it was a great class. I loved the curriculum. We had very good class discussions (6 kids aged 11-16 but most were 12-13 years old). SOme things in this thread are just incorrect.

 

First there was never anything about school uniforms in AoA.

 

Second abortion was mentioned only a couple of times. Honestly the examples in the book were pretty tame and to give better examples we inserted real life, more controversial topics.

In one place it mentions a belief in God vs. not believing in God.

 

Third, AoA does NOT have them building arguments it is a course in informal fallacies (28 of them).

 

Also I note:

 

AoA was not religious which helped it be a good fit for our all-inclusive homeschool co-op (in which some members are Christian).

 

Anyone using AoA at home could, off the top of their head, insert religious examples if they wanted.

 

I felt each informal fallacy would take about 20 minutes of reading and filling in the questions. The questions are not busywork they truly help the student understand.

 

The revised 2010 teacher manual contains the entire text of the student workbook in full size (easy to read) with answers. Tests are at the back.

 

My one complaint with it is there are no other suggestions for what to do with a class, what else could be discussed regarding that informal fallacy or do a skit or whatever. I needed to add in a bit to not have the entire class be reading off what they wrote in the book for their answer or re-reading the whole passage to make sure the students understood.

 

It was very good to do with a small class and when I use it at home with my own kids it will surely be more boring. We had a lot of laughs in the class and the students seemed to sometimes have it "click" when other students were explaining and discussing the informal fallacies.

 

Well I'm still looking for answers if AB must be done after DoD or not. Also I'd like to know of AoA is writing based (go write this argument) or does it encourage oral presentation of the arguments.

 

Thanks.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

I'm reading this thread today bc wondering after Art of Argument if should do Discovery of Deduction or Argument Builder.

 

I taught a homeschool co-op class that ended last month using Art of Argument (2010 revised edition) and it was a great class. I loved the curriculum. We had very good class discussions (6 kids aged 11-16 but most were 12-13 years old). SOme things in this thread are just incorrect.

 

First there was never anything about school uniforms in AoA.

 

Second abortion was mentioned only a couple of times. Honestly the examples in the book were pretty tame and to give better examples we inserted real life, more controversial topics.

In one place it mentions a belief in God vs. not believing in God.

 

Third, AoA does NOT have them building arguments it is a course in informal fallacies (28 of them).

 

Also I note:

 

AoA was not religious which helped it be a good fit for our all-inclusive homeschool co-op (in which some members are Christian).

 

Anyone using AoA at home could, off the top of their head, insert religious examples if they wanted.

 

I felt each informal fallacy would take about 20 minutes of reading and filling in the questions. The questions are not busywork they truly help the student understand.

 

The revised 2010 teacher manual contains the entire text of the student workbook in full size (easy to read) with answers. Tests are at the back.

 

My one complaint with it is there are no other suggestions for what to do with a class, what else could be discussed regarding that informal fallacy or do a skit or whatever. I needed to add in a bit to not have the entire class be reading off what they wrote in the book for their answer or re-reading the whole passage to make sure the students understood.

 

It was very good to do with a small class and when I use it at home with my own kids it will surely be more boring. We had a lot of laughs in the class and the students seemed to sometimes have it "click" when other students were explaining and discussing the informal fallacies.

 

Well I'm still looking for answers if AB must be done after DoD or not. Also I'd like to know of AoA is writing based (go write this argument) or does it encourage oral presentation of the arguments.

 

Thanks.

 

Hi Christine, thanks so much for posting. When I was asking about CAP logic, I was trying to determine if I should use FF/TT or AoA for informal logic. After informal logic, I wanted to know about Traditional Logic vs. Argument Builder and Discovery of Deductions for formal logic.

 

If there was miscommunication or misunderstanding, maybe this will help. I was hoping CAP would get a better "vote" because when I looked at it, CAP material looked more interesting and easier than TL. Instead, it appears that TL really is the one most preferred by ladies on this board.

 

Formal logic is, no doubt, worthwhile. Yet, when I read examples of formal logic I can't imagine us doing it. I made the comment somewhere that the more one looks into such a situation, the less challenging it becomes. I think I can see TL at a small homeschool store in town, and I hope to preview it there when I'm over that way. I'm still unsure what we'll do for informal logic.....except we might go ahead and try FD/TT next year.