Jump to content

Menu

(CC) Would you say this isn't biblical?


Recommended Posts

The teacher at my son's homeschool class shared this with me and I can't get it off my mind. This isn't a topic I've discussed with any other Christians than my husband so I'm now really curious if this is a common belief and we're just out of the Christian mainstream on it.

 

In a class discussion about the issue, my son said that he believed that early Native Americans who didn't know about God were able so 'know' him though His creation. She told him that wasn't Biblical.

 

My understanding has always been that scripture doesn't address this issue specifically so we can't be certain what happens to unreached people groups. I recall hearing several times something along the lines of--they will be judged based on what they know. I'm open to hearing that I may be mistaken on this scripturally, if you can share anything I might read to better understand I'd appreciate it.

 

We've been spiritually on the same page with this group for many years so I'm surprised-- and now very curious about how many other homeschooling Christians would agree that it is unbiblical. We usually fall on the conservative end of the spectrum and I'm :confused:.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, He can't be known entirely just from Creation. Creation points to Him, but doesn't completely reveal him.

 

The passage in Romans where people tend to draw this belief from should be read in context. I think that what Paul is saying in it is not that everyone is saved through their knowledge, but that everyone is condemned through their knowledge except in Christ.

 

This is a hard teaching, and not one that I am thrilled with or gloat over, but rather one that I tend to grieve. But that doesn't make me read it differently out of wishful thinking (not that you are, but if I took your stance that is what I would be doing).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was not the pat answer she was searching for. :ack2: The Bible speaks in various places about creation declaring God's glory and how He is revealed through works of creation. This is one of the reasons I keep my children away from christian groups. No independent ideas or critical thinking are allowed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, He can't be known entirely just from Creation. Creation points to Him, but doesn't completely reveal him.

 

The passage in Romans where people tend to draw this belief from should be read in context. I think that what Paul is saying in it is not that everyone is saved through their knowledge, but that everyone is condemned through their knowledge except in Christ.

 

 

:iagree:

 

But I do think the OP's perspective is popular among many Christians.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look up "General revelation" in a theology book. A good one will explain the concept and give you verses, including the one already mentioned in the Psalms. Basically, the term covers the idea presented in Scripture that God does reveal Himself through creation. But - general revelation only goes so far. It will reveal enough to let someone know that there is a god. To know specifically who God is and what He's done for us, you need to have "Special revelation". That is the information that God revealed directly to the prophets and to us through the Scripture.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a bit of a toughie for me. I don't know what God will do with unreached people, frankly.

I do know that if just the witness of creation were enough, there'd be no need for Jesus Christ.

 

There would still be a need for Christ because we would still need a path to salvation. Jesus came first and foremost to perform His saving work on the cross, and secondly to teach us about God the Father and how to live in obedience to Him. Without the cross, there would be no need to know who God is because we would all be doomed to eternal separation from Him anyway. Just knowing that God exists or even knowing about His nature does not provide salvation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This has been very helpful.

 

I wanted to clarify, if this might make a difference, that he was taking about people who didn't have access to the Scriptures or any knowledge of Jesus at all.

 

We understand this.

 

There is an analogy about the situation in "A Severe Mercy"--a book written by some friends of C. S. Lewis. A family goes on a picnic. Their dog runs away. They look everywhere for him--hunt, hike, call, put up reward signs, etc. The dog stays away of his own free will.

 

So from then on the dog is not part of the family--and neither are its descendants. The family would be thrilled to have him back, but he's just plain gone. Everyone is sorry about this, but it's his own choice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is biblical. The I noted Romans 1:20 below in both the NKJV and NIV so you can get the full idea of the verse. Your son was right!

 

Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

NKJV

 

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

NIV

 

 

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=1&t=KJV#20

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are those that believe in general revelation and those that don't. Scripture does speak out that all men can look at creation and know (internally) that there is a Creator regardless if they acknowledge it or deny it (this is not for debate, merely stating teaching). (dh points to Romans 1 and the Psalms).

 

On the subject of Native Americans, it is believed that there were certain tribes that did know of Christ before the Europeans came. There was also contact and trade with Europeans. Not all Native Americans came over the Bering Strait early, but some across the Atlantic later. I think there is much of history that is not written and has only been (ignorantly) presumed by those that wrote the history books (European descent). More ground is being broken in this area and people are willing to look further. I don't believe that America was just full of ignorant barbarians that God had nothing to do with for thousands of years. I do believe that Europeans never took the time to understand each tribe and just assumed paganism of every tribe based on comparisons to their own European practices. Again, either direction can be speculative, but we are learning more about things that have been ignored in the past.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is biblical. The I noted Romans 1:20 below in both the NKJV and NIV so you can get the full idea of the verse. Your son was right!

 

Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

NKJV

 

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

NIV

 

 

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=1&t=KJV#20

 

But this bears out my point. They know Him to an extent, but they are said to be 'without excuse' which means that they don't know Him enough to be right with Him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

General revelation is absolutely Biblical. In other words, people without any knowledge of God can look at the world and go "Hey, there must be a Creator!" That is unquestionable.

 

Whether that is enough for salvation to occur without further special revelation (hearing the Gospel) is something that people disagree on. Personally, I can understand the arguments both ways, including the argument that they won't be saved. But really..God's the only one who knows the answer to that one. The Scriptures which deal with the topic have been interpreted both ways.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

General revelation is absolutely Biblical. In other words, people without any knowledge of God can look at the world and go "Hey, there must be a Creator!" That is unquestionable.

 

Whether that is enough for salvation to occur without further special revelation (hearing the Gospel) is something that people disagree on. Personally, I can understand the arguments both ways, including the argument that they won't be saved. But really..God's the only one who knows the answer to that one. The Scriptures which deal with the topic have been interpreted both ways.

Yes - this. It is up for debate among Christians. No one is saying that Jesus is unecessary b/c of general revelation. The question instead is this: "Is it possible to be saved through Jesus without explicitly proclaiming faith in him, but rather belief in the Creator to the extent of your knowledge"

 

This is not only an issue for unreached people groups (both now and before the time of Christ), but also for infants who die, disabled persons who do not have the cognitive capabilities to understand who Jesus was, and those whose only exposure to Christianity is something hugely erroneous.

 

The technical terms for this debate are 'exclusivism' and 'inclusivism' (and both of these are distinct from 'pluralism'). There are degrees of each and both positions are based in the Bible and God's character as revealed in Scripture. I might encourage your DS (depending on his age) to investigate the issue further and pray about conviction for what to believe.

 

For me personally, it is a mystery that I am ok with not fully knowing and just saying "I trust God to be just, merciful, and loving toward his creation and to know the hearts of the people - I leave their judgement and salvation to him and don't need to try to carry that burden."

Edited by Sevilla
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

 

James 2:18-20 quoted above strongly suggests that we have to do more than just believe or somehow be aware that there is a God, if we are going to really know Him.

 

 

 

It seems that throughout the Bible, God used many, many 'witnesses' to make himself known to people. It seems like the people who were 'hungry' always got 'fed' the full gospel message, eventually.

 

 

There is also Hebrews 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

The word 'diligently' is missing from many translations, which may be an indication of why people don't think they need to search diligently.

 

Just my .02!

Interesting discussion!

 

:lurk5:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Romans 1:18-21

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

 

19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

 

20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

 

21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your son sounds like smart kid!!!!

 

I don't believe in Salvatory Double Jeopardy.

 

Romans 2: 12-16

 

12 For all who have sinned 1awithout the Law will also perish 1without the Law, and all who have sinned 2under the Law will be judged 3by the Law;

 

13 for it is

anot the hearers 1of the Law who are 2just before God, but the doers 1of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have 1the Law do 2ainstinctively the things of the Law, these, not having 1the Law, are a law to themselves,

15 in that they show athe work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

16 on the day when, aaccording to my gospel, bGod will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

 

 

Edited by simka2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In a class discussion about the issue, my son said that he believed that early Native Americans who didn't know about God were able so 'know' him though His creation. She told him that wasn't Biblical.

 

My understanding has always been that scripture doesn't address this issue specifically so we can't be certain what happens to unreached people groups. I recall hearing several times something along the lines of--they will be judged based on what they know. I'm open to hearing that I may be mistaken on this scripturally, if you can share anything I might read to better understand I'd appreciate it.

 

:.

 

I think there are possible grounds for your belief in Rom 1-2, though not all Christians will interpret it that way. Just as Christians believe that Old Testament believers were saved through the Christ they did not yet know, but looked forward to, there may be room to argue the same about Native Americans. There are other examples in Scripture of people who "knew" in ways other than by contact with the God's people. For instance, the magi came and worshipped Jesus. They "knew" through something of their own religious practice, which was probably Zorastrianism. The pharoah involved in the situation with taking Sara into his harem "knew" something.

 

I agree with your second paragraph that Scripture isn't chrystal clear on this point and I would agree that we don't know for sure. Your son's statement may have gone a little beyond that, though. He was at least partially correct, though. The scripture states that people can know God through what is revealed in creation. What they do with that knowing, is a separate issue.

 

Rom 1: 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

 

Rom 2: 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But this bears out my point. They know Him to an extent, but they are said to be 'without excuse' which means that they don't know Him enough to be right with Him.

 

I agree with you, everyone WILL be given the opportunity to know Him. Whether they choose to or not will be up to them. But what I get from Romans 1:20 is that no man will have an excuse not to know him...it's simply rejecting him at that point. :001_smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that these verses from Romans 2 are relevant:

"14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them."

 

 

I also believe that Jesus died once for all, and that our salvation is a result of what he did. I know that there are seekers who may spend their whole life searching wholeheartedly in the wrong place. There are many, as a previous poster has stated, that can't know God, or who haven't ever seen Him as he truly is. They have turned away from an erroneous understanding of Him, but haven't ever seen him. I believe Jesus will come, and these people will recognize Him as the One they have been searching for, and they will be drawn to Him, and He will embrace them and take them to Himself.

 

And, I believe that there will be many saved who turned away from "Christianity" because of well meaning Bible teachers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, He can't be known entirely just from Creation. Creation points to Him, but doesn't completely reveal him.

 

The passage in Romans where people tend to draw this belief from should be read in context. I think that what Paul is saying in it is not that everyone is saved through their knowledge, but that everyone is condemned through their knowledge except in Christ.

 

This is a hard teaching, and not one that I am thrilled with or gloat over, but rather one that I tend to grieve. But that doesn't make me read it differently out of wishful thinking (not that you are, but if I took your stance that is what I would be doing).

 

But Scripture also says that those who seek find; if knowing God through creation makes someone long for more of him, I believe they will find him. I think this is consistent with Scripture, not wishful thinking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:iagree:

It is biblical. The I noted Romans 1:20 below in both the NKJV and NIV so you can get the full idea of the verse. Your son was right!

 

Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

NKJV

 

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

NIV

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This has been very helpful.

 

I wanted to clarify, if this might make a difference, that he was taking about people who didn't have access to the Scriptures or any knowledge of Jesus at all .

 

Thanks again for your thoughts!

 

God spoke to people before the Scriptures were written: Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, Noah being some of them. Jeremiah says that if you seek Me with all your heart, you will find Me. If creation can help people understand that God exists and create a desire to know more, and we know from the Scriptures that God made himself known to people before the Scriptures were written, who am I to say that no Native Americans (or any other group who doesn't have access to the Scriptures) could have known God and received salvation?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks everyone for taking the time to share your thoughts on this.

 

I'm still thinking this situation through. I'm all for upholding absolute truth in a Christian classroom-- on any issue that is in the statement of faith parents signed. This one---I'm uncomfortable with it.

 

Thanks again. If anyone has any input about whether I should speak to the teacher or just drop it, I'm :bigear:.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks everyone for taking the time to share your thoughts on this.

 

I'm still thinking this situation through. I'm all for upholding absolute truth in a Christian classroom-- on any issue that is in the statement of faith parents signed. This one---I'm uncomfortable with it.

 

Thanks again. If anyone has any input about whether I should speak to the teacher or just drop it, I'm :bigear:.

 

You didn't say how old your son is. If he is 10 years old or older, I would just drop it. If he's younger, I would base it on whether he seemed to be upset by what was said in the classroom or not. He obviously was able to take a stand and to then come to you to discuss the issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In a class discussion about the issue, my son said that he believed that early Native Americans who didn't know about God were able so 'know' him though His creation. She told him that wasn't Biblical.

 

My understanding has always been that scripture doesn't address this issue specifically so we can't be certain what happens to unreached people groups. I recall hearing several times something along the lines of--they will be judged based on what they know.

 

Scripture doesn't say much about this in my opinion. It does say that we have a responsibility to reach others and teach others about the gospel. It really hit this home in scripture. We are not allowed to condemn people to hell. That is for God to do not us!!! Scripture is very vague about this issue. I would ask her what scripture she is using to say this. I would love to know!!!

 

I remember a scripture but can't remember where.....even the animals and creation knows of Him. Even the mountains and trees know. I will have to look it up and see where that is.

 

Holly (we are very conservative esp with the Bible...where the Bible speaks we speak, where the Bible is silent we are silent)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...