High school logic credits and logic curriculum recommendations

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Ladies, we've never studied logic before, and I'm trying to work it into my dd's 8th grade year. I'm thinking of using Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox in 8th possibly followed by Introductory Logic 4th edition (Wilson and Nance) in 9th. (I'm REALLY unsure about all of this....)

 

I have a few questions:

 

I've been tentatively planning on using MFW high school in 9th. They schedule FD and TT which is worth .5 credits. If dd uses FD and TT in 8th, can she still earn the .5 credit? What kind of work is equivalent to this credit?

 

Also, IF we use Introductory Logic (with MFW) in place of FD and TT, what kind of work and credit can I expect with these? At first glance, I liked the way Introductory Logic looked. It looked like it would be applicable to practical schoolwork, and it looked a bit more interesting compared to some other curricula I looked at. If you've used this, would you tell me what you liked/disliked about it? Would you recommend the DVD or not?

 

I'm trying to work toward SWB's recommendation to outline and write examples for A Rulebook for Argument... (working from logic toward rhetoric). I'd love to know if my logic sequence working up to this book is..... um.... logical?:lol:

 

Just to recap:

8th: Fallacy Detective/ Thinking Toolbox

9th: Introductory Logic/ A Rulebook for Argument

[dhudson]

We did Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox in 7th and now (8th) we are doing Memoria Press' Traditional Logic I. I thought that the Fallacy Detective/ Thinking Toolbox was a great into to Logic. He really enjoyed it and it helped the transition into Traditional Logic. We plan on continuing the Memoria Press Logic through high school. We are also planning on using MFW for high school. I think each semester of Logic is .5 of a credit.

 

Does that help?

[Sweet Home Alabama]

We did Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox in 7th and now (8th) we are doing Memoria Press' Traditional Logic I. I thought that the Fallacy Detective/ Thinking Toolbox was a great into to Logic. He really enjoyed it and it helped the transition into Traditional Logic. We plan on continuing the Memoria Press Logic through high school. We are also planning on using MFW for high school. I think each semester of Logic is .5 of a credit.

 

Does that help?

 

Yes, thank you!

 

I am also hoping to hear about a progression from logic to rhetoric. I find it interesting that you went from FD/TT to Traditional Logic. How big of a jump was that? I'm thinking Introductory Logic is a transition step. Thoughts???

 

And... I would love to hear how the assignments work. Time it takes, grading, how to make them as interesting as possible..... the workload that earns the credits.

Edited January 22, 2011 by Sweet Home Alabama

[Janice H]

Over the years Quote:

Originally Posted by wy_kid_wrangler04

Ok, I do not know if this belongs on the high school board or the Logic board so I figured I would start here :001_smile:

 

Introductory Logic by Mars Hill Press- is that a good follow up to Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox?

 

Having read the logic conversations over the years on this board (let's see...that is probably about 9years worth. LOL!), I would say that a larger percentage of families prefer Traditional Logic to Introductory Logic, but the group is divided. I think some actually do IL and then follow up with TL, but I don't think that is the norm. I do think IL might be a bit easier for a junior high student to use. I waited until 9th grade to do TL. Both would work as a follow up to FD and TT.

 

I just could not get into the IL DVDs. They sat on my shelf. TL is not fun and exciting, but it is logically written (pun sort of intended) and it does teach the basics of a high school class well.

 

My son tells me he wishes his college classmates had taken logic in high school. He also tells me that it was the most useful class he took in high school. LOL!

 

FWIW,

Jean

__________________

Jean at Shades of White

 

It came from this post http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2334705#post2334705

 

Many discussions over the years have occurred re: logic. My advice is to start in 8th or 9th with the Cothran book or Peter Kreeft's book and skip the warm-up books.

[4wildberrys]

We are using Fallacy Detective and Traditional Logic 1 this year. I have scheduled it so that he does 2 days a week of Traditional Logic with 1 day of Fallacy Detective---so he will be doing it all year as opposed to just 1 semester. He loves Fallacy Detective and we are in CH. 4 of Traditional Logic. Memoria Press recommends that if you do Traditional Logic 1 and 2 you can go right into Rhetoric, which is what we plan on doing. Although, I do plan on using the Rhetoric over 2 years (11th and 12th) so as to not overwhelm him. ;) Next year we will use Traditional Logic 2 with Thinking Toolbox.

[Julie in MN]

In 8th grade, my ds did Critical Thinking from Critical Thinking Press, which I think is very similar to all the logic books that I see discussed. I didn't count it as a high school credit. I plan to have him do the MFW 0.5 credit at some point.

 

If I had reversed the two, and done FD/TT in 8th, I would give 0.5 high school credit for Critical Thinking because it was done in high school and no credit for FD/TT because it was not done in high school.

 

My bias is not to count junior high credits as high school, but to list them on the back of the high school transcript if need be. That's the way my older son's ps transcript was done. If I really wanted 8th grade to count as hs, then I'd call all of 8th grade hs (i.e. skip a grade & call it 9th).

 

Julie

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Ok, I feel overwhelmed. Maybe we're just not ready. If I put Traditional Logic in front of my dd, I think she would cry. I think I would cry. I do not doubt that logic is a wonderful thing to do, but we need something much more understandable. I thought FD and TT might be a good starting place because I'm concerned that even Introduction to Logic might be somewhat overwhelming.

 

I read a chapter in the TL book. It wasn't the first chapter, so I kind-of got thrown into the subject. I'm sure that is part of why I feel overwhelmed. This falls somewhere between boring and so-complicated-that-I-don't-care.... I do care, it's just that we've never done logic, and I don't know what to do, and all of these logic books seem so complicated that it's just not worth it..... there, I said it.

 

DD will have a respectable schedule next year... Alg. I, physical science, (maybe TPS Eng. I)... these will be her hardest subjects. There is NO way she would have time for logic..... unless she did something like the quick FD/TT lessons.

 

I'm really not trying to be negative.... just realistic. Thank you all for your replies!

[Sweet Home Alabama]

In 8th grade, my ds did Critical Thinking from Critical Thinking Press, which I think is very similar to all the logic books that I see discussed. I didn't count it as a high school credit. I plan to have him do the MFW 0.5 credit at some point.

 

If I had reversed the two, and done FD/TT in 8th, I would give 0.5 high school credit for Critical Thinking because it was done in high school and no credit for FD/TT because it was not done in high school.

 

My bias is not to count junior high credits as high school, but to list them on the back of the high school transcript if need be. That's the way my older son's ps transcript was done. If I really wanted 8th grade to count as hs, then I'd call all of 8th grade hs (i.e. skip a grade & call it 9th).

 

Julie

 

Julie, thanks for the attention to the credit issue. I'm loving the FD/TT with MFW option, in a way. I don't know if it is "enough" as far as studying logic is concerned, but it could be done easily without being overwhelming.

[Julie in MN]

Julie, thanks for the attention to the credit issue. I'm loving the FD/TT with MFW option, in a way. I don't know if it is "enough" as far as studying logic is concerned, but it could be done easily without being overwhelming.

 

I don't know what's "enough" either. My ds did Critical Thinking and I also have FD/TT here plus one of the other Logic books mentioned (I'd have to go look at the title, maybe Traditional Logic?). To me, they all seem to cover the same things in different ways.

 

Personally, I find some things useful (critiquing commercials, for instance), some fun, but have a major annoyance with some (the whole, "If you have blue hair and you think the earth is flat" is a true statement because you don't have blue hair, thing :banghead:). In the end, if they "really get" any of these materials, I think they have learned the body of knowledge that is called "introductory logic."

 

Julie

[Sweet Home Alabama]

I don't know what's "enough" either. My ds did Critical Thinking and I also have FD/TT here plus one of the other Logic books mentioned (I'd have to go look at the title, maybe Traditional Logic?). To me, they all seem to cover the same things in different ways.

 

Personally, I find some things useful (critiquing commercials, for instance), some fun, but have a major annoyance with some (the whole, "If you have blue hair and you think the earth is flat" is a true statement because you don't have blue hair, thing :banghead:). In the end, if they "really get" any of these materials, I think they have learned the body of knowledge that is called "introductory logic."

 

Julie

 

I really appreciate this. In the recent logic posts, there is choice to be made between informal logic like Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox AND formal logic like Traditional Logic.

 

If I understand correctly, formal logic which seems to be the most desirable (but more involved...harder...dry....but profitable to study) is not dependent on studying informal logic (like Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox).

 

I have to decide if I want to try Traditional Logic (formal logic) which won't be easy or quick (but should be profitable in the long run) OR settle for FD/TT (informal logic) which certainly fits our time and developmental level at this time.

[elegantlion]

Another option for formal logic is CAP's Discovery of Deduction. I'm slowly working through it on my own and plan to use with ds next year.

 

I have previously tried Introductory Logic (gave up) and viewed Traditional Logic (looked too dry and workbooky for me). I'm not very far into DoD but it's laid out nicely and seems to have more discussion in the text over TLI.

[cbollin]

 

My bias is not to count junior high credits as high school, but to list them on the back of the high school transcript if need be. That's the way my older son's ps transcript was done. If I really wanted 8th grade to count as hs, then I'd call all of 8th grade hs (i.e. skip a grade & call it 9th).

 

Julie

 

chiming in late, but just saying :iagree:

 

and I live in a place that I "have" to use umbrella school. They only allow a few subjects in jr. high to be used as high school credit on transcript (such as math). Logic is not one of those they permit.

 

-crystal

[Colleen in NS]

I'm thinking Introductory Logic is a transition step.

 

I think Introductory Logic is an *alternative* to Traditional Logic. After reading past logic threads, I also think that IL is more symbol-oriented, and TL is more word-oriented. So if you want to go the formal logic route, you could choose either of these.

[Susan C.]

My dd did Traditional Logic 1 in 10th grade without having done any logic of any kind before. She did it, it was HARD, it took one semester. My homeschool association said to give her one semester honors credit for it. I showed it to her several months later, and she couldn't believe that she had done it. No retention....

 

If I were to do it again, I would do the Fallacy Detective/Thinking Toolbox combination for a regular (not honors) semester credit for high school.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Another option for formal logic is CAP's Discovery of Deduction. I'm slowly working through it on my own and plan to use with ds next year.

 

I have previously tried Introductory Logic (gave up) and viewed Traditional Logic (looked too dry and workbooky for me). I'm not very far into DoD but it's laid out nicely and seems to have more discussion in the text over TLI.

 

 

Paula, I'm so thankful you posted about Discovery of Deduction! I have looked at it and Argument Builder. Both seem to be easier to understand! I only skimmed the sample pages. I still have a LOT to learn.

 

Do you know if CAP's books are supposed to be done in a certain order? I just wonder which would fit our needs the best. I'll probably need to call CAP and chat with them.

 

Until then, can anyone offer any info on the CAP logic books.... Art of Argument, Argument Builder, or Discovery of Deduction???

 

Art of Argument was recently revised. Can anyone tell me about the change? Some didn't like the previous version because of the topic of abortion used in some way.... That would trouble me as well. I just wonder if abortion is still mentioned or not???

 

:bigear:

[Colleen in NS]

Do you know if CAP's books are supposed to be done in a certain order?

 

 

 

A quote from their website: "we generally recommend that students begin with informal logic study in The Art of Argument; the following two texts, Discovery of Deduction and The Argument Builder, can be used in any order."

[elegantlion]

A quote from their website: "we generally recommend that students begin with informal logic study in The Art of Argument; the following two texts, Discovery of Deduction and The Argument Builder, can be used in any order."

 

:iagree: We are using AofA right now. I don't have the revised version so I can't attest to what they've changed. We plan to use DofD next, then Argument Builder.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

I've not read all the replies, but I can tell you how it's worked out for us.

 

5th grade = Mind Benders

6th grade = Critical Thinking Books 1 & 2 (Criticial Thinking Press)

7th grade = Introductory Logic (Canon Press)

8th grade = Traditional Logic I (Memoria Press)

 

For this, I have awarded half a credit (0.5) for "Introduction to Formal Logic" on the transcript. I know it was done pre-high school, but I feel that it was such an advanced topic for them that it deserved high school credit. (ETA: This is being counted as an elective credit.)

 

For 9th grade, we are transitioning into rhetoric by outlining "A Rulebook for Arguments". We simply read and outline one short (very short) section each day, and then discuss it together.

 

And the jury's still out about how we will proceed next year.

 

Kinsa, I just responded to your reply on another thread I started. I am trying to work toward using A Rulebook for Argument. I'm glad you shared the path you're using to get there.

 

Actually, I'd just like to skip right over to rhetoric and skip the logic...I know this is a silly thing to say. I just haven't had a great experience trying to understand what to do for logic.

 

I'm trying to link logic to rhetoric in the quickest way possible mainly because rhetoric isn't the foreign language that logic is.

 

I'm a novice at all of this, however, and I'm taking notes from all of you who have BTDT.

[Julie in MN]

5th grade = Mind Benders

6th grade = Critical Thinking Books 1 & 2 (Criticial Thinking Press)

7th grade = Introductory Logic (Canon Press)

8th grade = Traditional Logic I (Memoria Press)

 

For this, I have awarded half a credit (0.5) for "Introduction to Formal Logic" on the transcript.

 

Karen,

I'm curious about what you felt was different between your 6th, 7th, and 8th materials. I know they're presented in slightly different ways, with slightly different types of examples, but do you see any differences that I'm missing?

Julie

[*~Tina~*]

Do you need the teacher's manual for The Art of Argument and The Discovery of Deduction?

[Colleen in NS]

Another option for formal logic is CAP's Discovery of Deduction. I'm slowly working through it on my own and plan to use with ds next year.

 

I'm glad you posted that! I didn't know there was anything else out there that was like Traditional Logic. I liked seeing that many of the topics were the same as in TL - it helped reinforce to me that logic (this new and mysterious language I'm trying to learn) is the same in another book, lol! I looked at the samples, and I like how it was written - I liked the writing much better than in TL.