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I'm trying to understand this, and I don't know what I'm seeing. In talking with someone else, we realized that both our dc visualize well from what they READ but not what they HEAR. So for instance if I read my dd a chapter from Proverbs, which is filled with interesting images, she sees none of it. But if she reads the chapter for herself, she can take any verse and draw a little picture for it.

 

What is this? Is it simply an aspect of visualization? Is it auditory processing that is part of the whole dyslexia thing? Just want to make sure I know what it is before I try to improve it, if that makes sense.

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Well I know it's auditory, but is it part of some larger problem or a learning style or what? I don't want to MISS something if it's the tip of an iceberg. I mean the most obvious thing is just for us to work on visualizing auditory input. I just want to know if I'm missing something more.

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We've done narration and dictation from the beginning. It's when things weren't right even after years of work that we started getting evaluations and labels. We've done VT, OT, looked at dyslexia, ADD, etc. Clearly there's something that is going on. I just want to know if this is a symptom of a larger auditory processing issue (and how to identify that) or a visualization thing or the other side of dyslexia or what. It's not merely me doing a bad job at homeschooling, that I know. You're on the SN board. We've already exhausted the regular stuff.

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OhElizabeth, without meaning to detract from your concerns: when you read to her, can she still narrate a summary? Can she answer questions about what the passage or chapter is about?

 

And if she can, is it somehow necessary that she be able to visualize or draw pictures in both modes of learning? As I sit here and ponder I realize that I don't visualize equally when reading to myself vs. hearing something read aloud, and there are even differences in the amount or kinds of pictures I form when I read different kinds of texts. Just wondering if there is some kind of reasoning that she should be able to process both modes in the same way.

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No, she does not narrate well from read-alouds, never has. She cannot summarize a chapter you read to her. She takes away vague or general information, and that's it. She won't be able to give you the plot or a summary of any kind. And here we're talking a sentence, a single sentence. It's just fascinating to me, because you let her read it and she can do it no problem!

 

It's not really a matter of whether we die on this hill or not. It's just that if I'm fixing things and working on processing this year, I might as well tease the issues out and work it ALL.

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Could it be that your dd is both a visual and auditory learner? I know that I comprehend and visualize much better if I can both see the printed word and hear it as well. I benefit from both when I read it myself (I can "hear" it in my head when I read it). The same is true if I can read along with the printed matter while someone else reads it aloud. I hope that makes sense.

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This is interesting. :lurk5:

 

I am like MomofC&A.

 

My daughter also does not do very well with comprehension when we do read-alouds. I always thought it was just because she's not paying attention. :001_huh: But I am just now breaking the iceberg when it comes to her issues.

 

I've always concentrated on my son's issues and getting him diagnosed because his issues are so out there and in your face. But now, as I'm doing more research trying to get more about my son explained, I've been running across a lot of things that really fit my daughter. She had ADHD and a mood disorder, but I think there's more there.

 

So I'll be watching this thread with a lot of interest. :bigear:

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That's what I'm saying. There's a lot we blow off in the early stages or where we just take the advice to change modalities. But then when you come upon it and realize there ARE problems, you have to wonder WHY it's happening, why things that seem reasonable don't work. We can always work around it. I want to know if we can fix (or at least improve) it. I've been looking at V/V, but I don't know if that's even on the right track.

 

Or just laugh and say Michele and I try to hard. It just seemed a reasonable question, to want to know why.

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Fascinating conversation.

 

I have no answers. I just know that I do fine with auditory processing, and am good at visualizing it. I also do well with reading fiction and visualization.

 

What I struggle with is visualizing non-fiction. It doesn't matter if it is auditory or visual.

 

Though I am 1. hands on learner (do it), 2. Visual learner (see it) and 3. auditory learner. I have a hard time taking anything other than simple, already known instructions and translating it into what to do. For example if the kiddos have a problem with hs and need my help they always start by trying to describe it to me. I always stop then and tell them to bring it to me. If I see it I will be one step ahead of them, and if I allow them to continue to tell me about it, I will have to have them repeat it three time before I get it. That said anytime I can add auditory to the other two it helps.

 

Heather

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It's not merely me doing a bad job at homeschooling, that I know. You're on the SN board. We've already exhausted the regular stuff.

 

OhElizabeth, I would never suggest that you weren't doing a good job homeschooling. I hope you didn't take it that way. I have served on many SST's and have supported/referred students in a school setting, I just wondered if narration was something you have tried. I hope you get to the bottom of this and see improvement.

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OhElizabeth, I would never suggest that you weren't doing a good job homeschooling. I hope you didn't take it that way. I have served on many SST's and have supported/referred students in a school setting, I just wondered if narration was something you have tried. I hope you get to the bottom of this and see improvement.

 

Oh I know you didn't mean it that way. It's the implication others did to me (and probably others here) over the years and my own self-incriminations. I've gone for years thinking if I... had been more consistent, had used xyz curriculum, had... then she wouldn't have these problems. It was always that *I* was the problem. This year I've gotten over that and have moved into there is a problem.

 

So yes, I was just being snippy. We did narrations, dictation, read CM stuff, even bought and did WWE (pure torture) when it came out. She could do the WWE narrations eventually, but they were really formulaic. It has never really been right. For instance in the WWE 3/4 levels all the models follow one of two patterns for retelling. Well duh, of course she can do that. She's not dumb. But when you give her a chapter out of a book, it's different.

 

It was just so odd when Michele and I were talking and realized both our kids could visualize written but not auditory material. Totally weird. I was just hoping somebody knew what that means.

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Ok, I've been thinking about this and found a quick survey at this link http://www.merrittspeech.com/telltale.htm I'm not sure it's a particularly excellent list, but it's a start. My dd doesn't have issue with the things they list as auditory processing. I'm thinking it all goes back to how she visualizes what she hears or rather that she doesn't visualize what she hears. It's all onus on the visual side, not auditory. That makes sense to me, as I look at the lists and think about it.

 

So maybe we just need to do the V/V type stuff and be done with it? We got such fast results with the work at our VT place, I hate the idea that v/v should take hundreds of hours and have less than shocking results.

 

And yes, it does connect to working memory. That's why we paused VT, because we all agreed the working memory was holding up her progress at this point. So maybe this would have disappeared as an issue with another month of VT? I don't know. They were working on visual processing and visualization, but they were doing it with abstract stuff, not words. It's a whole nother ballgame to connect language to visual.

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So maybe we just need to do the V/V type stuff and be done with it? We got such fast results with the work at our VT place, I hate the idea that v/v should take hundreds of hours and have less than shocking results.

 

 

My guess is that she can learn it quickly, but the hard part is using enough that it becomes 2nd nature. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you will, KWIM?

 

Heather

 

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Hey Heather, I think you're onto something! The VT was making neural pathways, and that really did just click and happen. But the visualization is more of a turn on, do the hard work. And as I think about it, it seems to me I might be able to do some things to help her make that CHOICE to turn it on and do the hard part. The easy part is leaving it OFF. The hard part is turning it ON. Ok, the wheels are turning...

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This is a really interesting thread. I hope Elizabeth finds the answer. I'm thinking of testing out the read-aloud narration and visualization with my oldest because she is the weakest auditorally. (Hey, is that a word?)

 

Dd#2 seems to be able to do any read-aloud narration without difficulty. Brag, brag. But one is very weak in remembering the specific she's read. She seems the opposite of Elizabeth's dd.

 

I took a book out the other morning to kill some time when we were waiting for something. I had no memory of having read it before and dd#2 didn't either. Then dd#3 proceeded to tell us all the details of the first two chapters to prove to us that we had read it. I started reading it anyway because I still couldn't believe that I had read it and didn't remember, and she continued to tell us at each pause what would happen next. Now I'm convinced that one's an auditory girl, too. She must have been visualizing, too, by the way she desribed the scenes. Yes, this sounds like a brag, too, but she struggles a lot in her own way, poor thing.:001_smile:

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Hey Heather, I think you're onto something! The VT was making neural pathways, and that really did just click and happen. But the visualization is more of a turn on, do the hard work. And as I think about it, it seems to me I might be able to do some things to help her make that CHOICE to turn it on and do the hard part. The easy part is leaving it OFF. The hard part is turning it ON. Ok, the wheels are turning...

 

Yes it is easier. I have finally learned to visualize words. Do I use it? Only when I do spelling with my youngest 2. I have had only one time that I can remember using it outside of that set time. Sigh...

 

Heather

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Ok Yllek, what is it you're doing in speech therapy? See in general, I wouldn't have considered my dd as having a *speech* problem. But I *definitely* see what you're saying about the language component. So what is it they are doing in their sessions to work on language processing? And what type of SLP is this? Does she have letters or a therapy or something to identify her?

 

I remember when we started VT the therapist had dd lie on the floor and just talked with her and watched her body go into fright/flight (breathing faster, losing focus, etc.) when she asked her harder questions. I can't remember what all they were doing. Maybe she had to do a motion while doing the talking? I just remember the talking part and how odd it was.

 

It definitely makes sense to me that there's an issue with how they process language. It's just showing up too many ways: narrations, visualizing auditory, difficulty pulling all the pieces together in an applied language like latin, etc. All I could figure was there was some bilaterality issue. I don't really even know, and I haven't known who to ask. Duh, I guess that neuropsych? (the expensive one I haven't followed through with, haha)

 

So now you need to start spilling the beans!! What ARE they doing in that speech time? I've never been convinced V/V was exactly right, or I would have bought it. It has just seemed to me that it's a portion of the problem, not the whole thing. Takes too long, too slow a results. I don't know, I'm not slamming it, just saying I'm still looking. If you have something that is bringing together more facets of brain function into one powerful session to go in and build that section of the brain, that's what I want! I want VT for this, not the slow and painful route. :)

 

BTW, she mispronounces a couple vowels, but I think it's sort of a habitual thing. Dad is /dE-ud/ (I kid you not) and seems to take pleasure in incorrect grammar (verbs, adv/adj, that type thing). I'm such a stickler, it sort of surprises me. It's just one of those little things you file away in the weird pile.

Edited by OhElizabeth
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I just read the first half of "When the Brain Can't Hear" and a couple of online APD articles, and there was something either in there or one of the articles I read that talked about a certain type of APD that resulted in this and that people who were not strong readers were surprised that their "weakness" was actually stronger than was was normally their "strength."

 

So, that might be it.

 

However, there are other possibilities...

 

I, personally, prefer learning when reading than listening, and have to really force myself to pay attention to a lecture or mp3 or my mind will start wandering. I might be OK if I could pause the audio to think when I started to get tangential thoughts...it's much easier to pause a book than audio. (Although I guess I could pause an mp3, but I usually try to multi-task when listening to them and then wind up burning my food AND not listening to my mp3.)

 

Also, it might be a memory thing, reading is generally much faster than audio. One of my student's dad read so slow that he had to take notes on the side of his book or he would forget what he had read. (His son read slow, but fast enough to remember and his memory was better than his dad's.)

 

Can she take notes while listening without thinking about what's being said and then later read the notes and process them?

 

I'm sure that there are other possibilities, too, there are so many things that work together.

Edited by ElizabethB
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I think Yllek's idea of language processing encompasses all the things I'm seeing. Now I just need to figure out what to DO about it.

 

Yllek, can you tell more about the therapy? You gave us a good list, but could we have the rest of the things? And did you say you have homework for the SLP too? So the SLP does a list in therapy (1-2 days a week?) and then you have a different list for homework? See I'm thinking I could do both those things. Or rather, I'm afraid if I try 30 SLP's, I'm going to get 30 different levels of knowledge on this. I don't know how to find a good one for it. I'm thinking with you that the IM list is a good way to narrow it down. I'm trying that. There are actually only a couple SLP's who do IM close to us. One is in the same building as our OT, and it's in the same speech practice that gave me the worried mother routine about ds. They were nice, and actually this lead SLP *may* know something about this, I don't know. But it sure seems to me that it's totally dependent on the awesomeness of the therapist, frankly. Halfway will only be halfway. The more organized and thorough they are, the better.

 

The other SLP is at a large speech and hearing center connected with the big hospital. They are well-liked by people I've talked with who go there. (They do OT, SLP, IM, the whole nine yards.) The receptionist, a man, gave me a hard time on the apraxia thing when I had called about ds, so again I'm not sure about them. It's terrible to judge a place by their receptionist I suppose. What I hate though is it's not like it's FREE to go see these people. You could see one after another, have miss after miss, and not have someone who knows enough to pull it all together and be helpful.

 

Here's what I see. She struggles with:

-narrations-retelling events of day, telling about a movie she watched, book reports or retellings (written or oral)

-typing, piano-She can't pull it together to go from symbol she reads to thing she strikes. She can either read and tell you what it is or strike when you tell her, but she can't do both parts to bring it to the whole movement.

-foreign language-again, she can memorize parts (grammar chants, not vocab, vocab is horrible), but it's EXTREMELY hard for her to process it and apply. Latin slows her down and wears her out, like grinding cogs.

-writing-needs quiet, very hard, she usually locks up, gets really frustrated, then spews out something good. All her thoughts inside are very good, and when they come out they're good. It's just the getting out that is horrible.

-speech-She'll get frustrated and lock up, sputtering and making silly hand motions, because she can't get it out. She did this again today, and I suddenly realized that this has been going on for YEARS, this sputtering thing. It's her way of covering for a problem. We talked about it (because now she's old enough too), and she said yes, that absolutely she's doing that because she feels so frustrated.

 

So I definitely think we're onto something. I'm not imagining things. Now I need either a person to help me or a protocol to follow. Are there BOOKS on language processing? I did a little online search last night, and auditory processing is a subset of the larger language processing issue. I don't think it's specifically (narrowly) APD, as that eliminates too many of the other aspects.

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Yllek-Hey, I recognize that term! I've seen it and just hadn't put it together with this. Well cool, that would help the searching a bit, to have the right word, lol.

 

Elizabeth B. -Yes, that's what I think, that the two sides of the brain aren't working together right. It's the only way I can fathom how she can have so many components of something like latin and not be able to pull them together. Same deal with piano and typing, all the components, call pull it together.

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I agree - it sounds like it could be an expressive language weakness (another common problem within the dyslexia array).

 

I have one child formally dx'd with Expressive Language Disorder, and a couple of others who exhibit signs. I suspect I also have it to some degree.

 

For more information, "The Source For Processing Disorders" (Linguisystems) has a section addressing remediation and compensation for Language Processing Disorders.

 

http://www.linguisystems.com/searchResults.php?searchtype=1&dosearch=1&keywords=The+Source+For+Processing+Disorders

 

According to this book,

 

"The neurological Processing Continuum Model supports the fact that we aren't yet able to "fix" or repair brains that function differently. However, by implementing modification strategies to assist or compensate for deficits, the brain can assume the required language processing functions in a limited way."

 

Although I don't like the idea that there's only one "fix" that's out of reach for people with atypical neurology, there is some truth to it. Ultimately, no matter how hard I might try to fix myself, I will always have SOME weaknesses in this area. The trick is to minimize them by strengthening the processing as much as possible, and then finding ways to compensate above and beyond that.

 

Also, working memory plays a significant role in expressive language. Two of my kids have lower than normal working memory, and I can see that same problem in myself. For instance, my husband has finally accepted the fact that he can't just tell me directions and expect me to arrive - I really need to write it down, and preferably have a map.

 

I read an article (I think it was on the Eide's blog) that one of the doctors didn't discover for years after graduating from Harvard Med that she had lower than normal working memory, and had been unconsciously compensating for years. :)

 

V/V can help, I think, but I don't use it in the way it was intended. The workbooks provide an excellent, structured format for expressive language practice, both verbal and written.

 

Here's a suggestion for working memory enhancement practice:

 

"No-Glamour" Memory

 

http://www.linguisystems.com/searchResults.php?searchtype=1&dosearch=1&keywords=no-glamour+memory

 

I don't think there's a quick fix for this. Working on memory, vocabulary and expressive language, plus developing self-management tricks such as lists, planners, etc., and also study strategies (I like Andrew Pudewa's key word note-taking system) can be really helpful over time.

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Thank you for sharing all that Heidi! I didn't even know there was a name for this. I just had lots of disconnected things over time that finally all came together when I thought of them as all reflecting how she processes and gets out language. I hear you on the compensating! Unfortunately, compensating isn't going to let her do the things she wants to do, and it hasn't really gotten us over the humps. I'm going to see if some of the therapy like Yllek got will help us. Don't even know if I can find a person to do it, or if I'm going to have to do it myself.

 

I've looked at V/V, and I think it only encompasses part of our problem. It sounds like Yllek's SLP is approach it from a lot of different angles to get at more of it.

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Do you let your dd move while she's listening? My 12 yo is highly vs and used to have a lot of trouble with auditory retention, although she has improved with time. She does better if she moves while listening and does much better if she's watching a video while listening to audio. She's been watching a free history video series we got from the History Channel and writes a page about it afterward. I'm amazed at how she is able to retain so many more words when she's attached them to the pictures. Dd does not have any dyslexia that I'm aware of (read easily and retains what she reads, no trouble writing, but was an atrocious speller until she made up her own mnenomics.) Even my highly auditory ds concentrates better if he can move while listening.

 

Two books I have found helpful (do you have these?) with my younger dc are Smart Moves: Why Learning is in Your Head and Brain Gym.http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Moves-Learning-Your-Head/dp/0915556375/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295635475&sr=8-1 This isnt the same thing I was discussing about them moving while listening; mine are partly kinesthetic learners.

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I'm going to see if some of the therapy like Yllek got will help us. Don't even know if I can find a person to do it, or if I'm going to have to do it myself.

 

Yllek is very fortunate in her therapist. I hope you can find someone with a similarly effective attack plan. (I haven't had much luck around here :tongue_smilie:).

 

I've looked at V/V, and I think it only encompasses part of our problem. It sounds like Yllek's SLP is approach it from a lot of different angles to get at more of it.

 

Yes, a multi-pronged attack is the best approach, I think. V/V workbooks can help with the verbalizing practice (but really, many other materials could do the same thing.)

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Two books I have found helpful (do you have these?) with my younger dc are Smart Moves: Why Learning is in Your Head and Brain Gym.http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Moves-Learning-Your-Head/dp/0915556375/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295635475&sr=8-1 This isnt the same thing I was discussing about them moving while listening; mine are partly kinesthetic learners.

 

I like these books, too. And another Carla Hannaford book, "The Dominance Factor" (neurology/learning style). I was a bit sceptical at first, but after we did the tests and matched up each person in the family with the associated list for their particular dominance profile, I was amazed at how spot-on the match-ups were. It was freaky. :eek: It could have been a coincidence, perhaps. But we have a big family, and every one of them matched up.

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Heidi, that's what I'm afraid of, that I'll waste money trying SLP's and not find a good one. :( On that dominance issue, dd is right for everything but her eyes, which is left eye dominant. The VT place left her that way, saying good enough for Tiger Woods was good enough for them. Now that he's turned out to be a deviant, I'm not so sure, lol. Anyways, there you go. Do you recall what that book said to turn it into something?

 

Karin-I'll have to think on the moving thing. I keep wanting to see/buy Brain Gym and just haven't done it yet. ($40, ouch!) I have let her color and do handicrafts during read alouds.

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Heidi, that's what I'm afraid of, that I'll waste money trying SLP's and not find a good one. :( On that dominance issue, dd is right for everything but her eyes, which is left eye dominant. The VT place left her that way, saying good enough for Tiger Woods was good enough for them. Now that he's turned out to be a deviant, I'm not so sure, lol. Anyways, there you go. Do you recall what that book said to turn it into something?

 

Karin-I'll have to think on the moving thing. I keep wanting to see/buy Brain Gym and just haven't done it yet. ($40, ouch!) I have let her color and do handicrafts during read alouds.

 

Is it $40 now? You could start with the Smart Moves book, which is cheaper. They do recommend Brain Gym, but there are other things they mention.

 

The moving while listening is something separate that mine do on their own, but you can incorporate it in a number of different ways.

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I'm sorry I haven't posted earlier. I keep holding off thinking I'm confused as to what evaluations your daughter has had. Also, haven't had much time to post.

 

I thought your daughter had both a capd and an slp evaluation?

 

If she has not had a capd evaluation, you might want to start there. However, once again, the audiologist you use is key. You need to find someone that follows "When the brain can't hear".

 

A subtype of capd is Auditory Associative Deficit. Sometimes, it is not recognized as an auditory impairment because it is linked to language. If it is determined to Auditory Associative Deficit, a SLP evaluation will be recommended as well. However, the point of that is to make sure that any speech issues are dealt with as you also begin auditory therapy.

You cannot diagnose this yourself just from reading the book. Only testing will tell you if it is Auditory Associative Deficit vs. Auditory Integration(using both sides of brain). The dichotic tests are crucial. It could be a receptive language issue that affects reading comprehension when read to.

 

My son has been recently diagnosed Auditory Associative Deficit. My son is very good at phonics, can hear the slightest sound, pick up the rhythm, tone, he can imitate any voice he hears. According to the audiologist, imitating voices is a right brain function.

 

When a child is told a series of numbers and then repeats the wrong ones it can be a break down from hearing it to expressing it, in which case it is linked to speech. However, this has to be interpreted with the findings in all of the types of tests that are done in a capd evaluation. Only the complete battery of capd tests would be able to detect which type of auditory impairment it is.

 

Based on what you were saying about her eye dominance, I would recommend you read Smart Moves before you move on to Brain Gym.

A good audiologist will be one that follows "When the Brain Cant Hear" and "Smart Moves"/Brain Gym.

 

I would start with a capd. If it is both sides of the brain not talking to each other it would be Auditory Integration. Only the capd can tell you if it is auditory integration vs. auditory associative deficit.

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On that dominance issue, dd is right for everything but her eyes, which is left eye dominant. The VT place left her that way, saying good enough for Tiger Woods was good enough for them. Now that he's turned out to be a deviant, I'm not so sure, lol. Anyways, there you go. Do you recall what that book said to turn it into something?

 

That's my profile as well. There are 32 basal dominance profiles described inthe book. My profile (and your daughter's) is K, and my kids with CAPD are L's (supposedly the same as Albert Einstein:tongue_smilie:- I don't know whether that's good or bad, but either way, your daughter's profile would be similar. According to the book my"left eye scans from right to left". No point changing eye dominance (if it's even possible :confused:). I just hold my book to the left when reading and slant my paper kind of at a right angle to the desk as I write. The impact is minor. The author says that the learner's greatest challenge may be to access the pieces of information in the brain in order to communicate them. This may be true, but honestly, it's never held me back, except that I'm not as verbally eloquent as I'd like to be. But it's not noticeable to anyone else. I'm working very hard on building my kids' vocabularies because the more words a person has stored in their minds, the easier it is to work around the expressive language glitch.

 

Both my CAPD kids have the auditory integration type.

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Yllek-Is there are publisher on these materials? Then I could contact them to find therapists or at least recognize the materials when the prospective SLP mentions them.

 

The first SLP I contact today is retired, bummer. I'll keep looking.

 

I'll go look at the auditory stuff. She's never had any of the auditory processing symptoms when I've seen charts for it, so that wasn't really on my radar.

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Thanks Yllek! I'm looking at the prices on these things, and I'm thinking that before I just buy and shoot in the dark, I'm going to get her evaluated. (Of course I don't know what that will cost, lol. Hopefully nothing terrible.) I didn't realize they had a single test like that CELF that would cover all this in one test. Mercy, that hits it! So if I find someone who will administer some tests like that, we'll at least be somewhere, and we won't think it's my imagination. I talked to ds's speech therapist about it, and she didn't think I was nuts. She does apraxia and feeding issues only, but she has another person she brings in once a week to do expressive language stuff that she's going to try to connect us with. If that doesn't work out, something else will. I'm just glad to finally have a path to go with this. We've had so many little bizarre things on the language output that I've never known the cause of or seen the pattern with. Now to see if we can do something about it!

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