Annabel Lee Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 There are so many LA curricula that claim to be "all-in-1", but so many of us (read: me) end up adding to them in very weak areas or areas they don't cover at all. It would be so nice to find something that truly covers: Literature/reading skills: reading great books & children's classics, learning about all the genres, literary terms (and use of them!), and some analyzing; phonics, steadily increase speed & level of difficulty, fluency, locating & identifying facts, determining fact from fiction, sequencing, context, main idea, drawing conclusions, making inferences, summaries & reports Spelling: phonics-based with the rules for syllables, prefixes, suffixes (with rules for how to change the spelling to add suffixes), pluralizations Vocabulary: with root words, word study Writing: mechanics (formats for different types of paragraphs), step-by-step practice in writing letters/summaries/outlines broken down into daily chunks with detailed instructions, summarizing, narration/dictation, other little things like similes, metaphors, proofreading, grading rubrics Grammar: everything traditional grammar has w/ diagramming, proper usage, punctuation, etc. Poetry: memorization, different types of poetry, writing poetry Things which I don't know how to categorize: homonym, homophone, heteronym, homograph, synonyms, antonyms, dictionary skills (incl. marks), library skills (incl. classification systems), analogies, word play (anagrams, doublespeak, onomatopoeia, palindromes, portmanteau words, riddles, euphamisms, proverbs...) Penmanship: detailed instruction on formation, grip, cursive connections, with continuing reminders for kids after they learn proper formation Latin would be a huge plus -OR- A.k.a. the following, all rolled into one: Rod & Staff English, First Language Lessons, Writing With Ease, IEW, CW, AAS, Spelling Workout, Vocab. from Classical Roots, LLATL, CLE LA, DITHOR, Writing Tales, English from the Roots Up, Abeka phonics & spelling & penmanship, Evan Moor (EM) Daily 6-Trait Writing, EM Write a Super Sentence, EM Paragraph Writing, EM Writing Fabulous Sentences & Paragraphs, McGuffey's Eclectic Readers, OPGTTR, SWB/WTM writing and literature, Writing Strands, Reading Strands, Remedia Publications Outlining, and an excellent but flexible booklist. :D Does anyone know the name of this dream program? It has to cover each thing well, but chop it up into daily bits with a detailed TM. What's the closest thing to what I'm describing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rootsnwings Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 We use k12 and it is exactly what you are describing, although in 4th grade we supplement with a cursive workbook as they don't do handwriting at that age. They do have handwriting in te younger grades though. We use k12 independently & bought materials only for $120, shipped. It is a bit more expensive in the younger grades but not by much. You do notneed to purchase the "online" portion which is $23/mo as all it os is a schedule and honestly, I'd rather plan it out myself and save myself $276/year. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rootsnwings Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Here are the K12 LA5 materials--I was just looking at them this morning & had it handy. :) https://ecomm.k12.com/ecommerce/public/kitContents.xhtml?cid=103529 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aquiverfull Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I think Phonics Road Levels 1-4 will come pretty close to what you are describing. Lets' see...out of all the things you listed, the only thing that I'm not sure PR will cover is poetry. Maybe Tina will pop in here in a bit and give you lots more information. She's much better qualified to tell you the workings of PR than I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rootsnwings Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Not sure if that link works but here is one that may be more helpful: https://ecomm.k12.com/ecommerce/public/index.xhtml IDk what is up with their website but they have changed it and it is not nearly as accessible as it was before. :( you may want to fill out the info form and have them send you an email with all the various links--that's where I'm vetting the ones I've posted. HTH And, fwiw, we used the first R&S English & Spelling, FLL 1-2, WWE 1-2 and I was looking for the same thing when I tried k12. We have enjoyed it a LOT this year and I will be ordering our LA5 materials for next year very soon! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aquiverfull Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Oh yeah, and while there is no really detailed TM in Phonics Road, there is plenty of teacher instruction via the DVDs. It's an expensive program, but it comes the closest I've seen to a true All in one LAs approach. I've only been through level 1 and currently accelerating through Level 2. PR is a solid program, the most comprehensive of it's kind, in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susankenny Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Here are the K12 LA5 materials--I was just looking at them this morning & had it handy. :) https://ecomm.k12.com/ecommerce/public/kitContents.xhtml?cid=103529 I can't see anything when I click on the link. Question though. So, for 4th grade you only paid $120 for all of the K12 components (minus the OLS). That sounds very interesting. I really like K12, but didn't think we could afford anything independently. What all does the LA include? Lastly, do they have a placement test? I'm not sure that my daughter is up to par in writing, so I would want to make sure she was placed according to her level. Would you say K12 is a good fit for a struggling writer (i.e. does it explain the process step-by-step?). Sorry. I'm not trying to hijack here...just wondering.:) Susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoveBaby Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I think Phonics Road Levels 1-4 will come pretty close to what you are describing. Lets' see...out of all the things you listed, the only thing that I'm not sure PR will cover is poetry. Maybe Tina will pop in here in a bit and give you lots more information. She's much better qualified to tell you the workings of PR than I am. :iagree: The only thing I don't think it has is poetry. There is a free book on Gutenberg in both print and audio versions called "Poems Every Child Should Know" that would fill that need quite nicely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annabel Lee Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Thanks for the suggestions! I'd have never guessed K12 is like that. I was wondering if PR fit the bill; I've never watched their demo presentation so I should probably go do that. I could handle adding poetry or cursive; one or 2 subjects (esp. if they're simple like those) would be OK. I just looked at the K12 link (the link in the 2nd post above works). I would have to mull that over & study the samples of it (and see if I can find more samples of it online); it's very different from anything I've ever done. Do you really have to pay for placement tests? I don't even know if I'm serious about switching L.A.; that's a pretty big decision. I'm just asking out of frustration - juggling too many different pieces, never feeling like I've got a good handle on all of them at once, and the little gaps between the pieces that I find now and then. I see how smoothly some programs fit things together without all the overlap and/or gaps of using multiple resources and I want that, but I don't want it to need so much supplementing. I yearn for some type of simplicity and assurance w/ LA. Time to do some reading and find out if my reasons for being on the path I'm on still "fit" or not. *sigh* It always comes down to this - me losing my way, that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susankenny Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Do you really have to pay for placement tests? . No, you don't have to pay for a placement test. They have a free placement test & my daughter is taking it today. On their website, it has a link to it. I'm just not sure how it only cost $120. I see the materials cost that much, but it looks like you have a separate fee for enrollment (which is over $200). That seems like a lot. We'll see....if anything, the placement test will be interesting to view the results. Susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoveBaby Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Thanks for the suggestions! I'd have never guessed K12 is like that. I was wondering if PR fit the bill; I've never watched their demo presentation so I should probably go do that. I could handle adding poetry or cursive; one or 2 subjects (esp. if they're simple like those) would be OK. I just looked at the K12 link (the link in the 2nd post above works). I would have to mull that over & study the samples of it (and see if I can find more samples of it online); it's very different from anything I've ever done. Do you really have to pay for placement tests? I don't even know if I'm serious about switching L.A.; that's a pretty big decision. I'm just asking out of frustration - juggling too many different pieces, never feeling like I've got a good handle on all of them at once, and the little gaps between the pieces that I find now and then. I see how smoothly some programs fit things together without all the overlap and/or gaps of using multiple resources and I want that, but I don't want it to need so much supplementing. I yearn for some type of simplicity and assurance w/ LA. Time to do some reading and find out if my reasons for being on the path I'm on still "fit" or not. *sigh* It always comes down to this - me losing my way, that is. Cursive is included in PR. Tina says that an extra writing book isn't necessary since the students complete all of the building codes, blueprints and framing codes in cursive in the student notebook. That should be enough practice. I know what you mean about juggling many books, having overlap and/or gaps and then not having a good handle on them! We switched to PR for help with spelling, we are staying with PR to avoid the problems mentioned above. It has really made LA much, much better around here. And it's easier to be consistent with *one* thing, than to be consistent with many things. At least at my house! ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 There are so many LA curricula that claim to be "all-in-1", but so many of us (read: me) end up adding to them in very weak areas or areas they don't cover at all. It would be so nice to find something that truly covers: Literature/reading skills: reading great books & children's classics, learning about all the genres, literary terms (and use of them!), and some analyzing; phonics, steadily increase speed & level of difficulty, fluency, locating & identifying facts, determining fact from fiction, sequencing, context, main idea, drawing conclusions, making inferences, summaries & reports Other than a variety of genres, you will get all of this from The Phonics Road. It is very similar to WTM recs for each of these areas, so far as content and grade levels. Since you'll be using SOTW, WTM recs for lit, you'll fill in the genre gap naturally. Spelling: phonics-based with the rules for syllables, prefixes, suffixes (with rules for how to change the spelling to add suffixes), pluralizations PR totally. Vocabulary: with root words, word study PR level 3 is working amazingly well for us in this area, too. I'm amazed at the retention. An example or two is on my blog for this. (in siggy, look for PR3 in right sidebar) Writing: mechanics (formats for different types of paragraphs), step-by-step practice in writing letters/summaries/outlines broken down into daily chunks with detailed instructions, summarizing, narration/dictation, other little things like similes, metaphors, proofreading, grading rubrics Other than grading rubrics, you'll get this from the PR series, too. Since we use TOG and Write Shop, I get plenty of rubrics over here. Grammar: everything traditional grammar has w/ diagramming, proper usage, punctuation, etc. Starts w/ sentence parsing in the 2nd level, which moves effortlessly into diagramming (scaffolding). Poetry: memorization, different types of poetry, writing poetry Light poetry; we use exerts from the reading for memorization, as well a history. You'll get plenty of memorization from following WTM recs. Things which I don't know how to categorize: homonym, homophone, heteronym, homograph, synonyms, antonyms, dictionary skills (incl. marks), library skills (incl. classification systems), analogies, word play (anagrams, doublespeak, onomatopoeia, palindromes, portmanteau words, riddles, euphamisms, proverbs...) Most of this list is covered, too. Penmanship: detailed instruction on formation, grip, cursive connections, with continuing reminders for kids after they learn proper formation detailed, well taught, well modeled, easy to learn, easy to teach. Latin would be a huge plus Starts w. word study (Latin strong since our language is) and guides right into the Latin Road to English Grammar (which will cover all grammar and Latin from one source). -OR- A.k.a. the following, all rolled into one: Rod & Staff English, First Language Lessons, Writing With Ease, IEW, CW, AAS, Spelling Workout, Vocab. from Classical Roots, LLATL, CLE LA, DITHOR, Writing Tales, English from the Roots Up, Abeka phonics & spelling & penmanship, Evan Moor (EM) Daily 6-Trait Writing, EM Write a Super Sentence, EM Paragraph Writing, EM Writing Fabulous Sentences & Paragraphs, McGuffey's Eclectic Readers, OPGTTR, SWB/WTM writing and literature, Writing Strands, Reading Strands, Remedia Publications Outlining, and an excellent but flexible booklist. :D Does anyone know the name of this dream program? It has to cover each thing well, but chop it up into daily bits with a detailed TM. What's the closest thing to what I'm describing? PR is pretty darn close to all you're looking for. The teacher's manual sets up schedules for each subject (grammar (eventually comes directly from literature), spelling (includes word study), literature). I LOVE PR b/c it has taken out the complication in our day. One Source, One understanding, One program for Language Arts for all of grammar school and the only thing I have to add is writing after they complete Level 4 and move into The Latin Road. Easy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I don't even know if I'm serious about switching L.A.; that's a pretty big decision. I'm just asking out of frustration - juggling too many different pieces, never feeling like I've got a good handle on all of them at once, and the little gaps between the pieces that I find now and then. I see how smoothly some programs fit things together without all the overlap and/or gaps of using multiple resources and I want that, but I don't want it to need so much supplementing. I yearn for some type of simplicity and assurance w/ LA. Time to do some reading and find out if my reasons for being on the path I'm on still "fit" or not. *sigh* It always comes down to this - me losing my way, that is. I know Exactly what you mean. After suffering through gaps with my first lot, I wrote this about my discovery of PR. It is a real life saver! I know I sound extreme to those who haven't used the program, but I couldn't be more serious. PR Makes A Difference in our schooling - getting in all done, keeping peace and sanity, and avoiding gaps! I have such peace about LA now and I never had that before...if only I could find that all is well for science, I'd be Totally set for grammar school! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annabel Lee Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 Thanks, Tina. No, you don't sound extreme; if I could do all L.A. in such a short amount of time and have peace that all the bases are getting covered, all while having step-by step, day-by-day instruction so that I don't have to break down an overarching philosophy on my own w/o a TM (which also means trying to keep all that info in the front of my mind on my own)... I'd be pretty excited, too. How's that for a run-on sentence? ha! I've got the PR DVD that I'm going to pop in in 10 minutes (what am I doing? am I causing more trouble for myself? eek!) after the kids finish their Kratt's Wild Creatures animal show. I did sit and re-read, for the umpteenth time it seems, the grammar stage LA section of WTM this morning before school. For some reason I'm finally able to accept that I have been trying to do too much, even by WTM standards. Many of you have told me that before, but I just couldn't see where I could possibly trim down. Each component I'm using serves a purpose that the others don't. I've read TWTM before while attempting the same schedule, but somehow I thought each component I added was just. so. important. that I ignored the obvious. Perhaps I'm willing to accept that now because after trying ad naseum with all my might for a good long time, I can never get it all done (no exaggerating - I really mean never!). Before, I just thought I needed to try harder, manage time better, get up even earlier... What I've been adding is all phonics-related: phonics rules, phonetic spelling rules and lots of practice for them, phonetic markings, etc. WTM doesn't continue this very much after OPG or another phonics primer is completed, save for the "tips" at the top of the pages in SWO. I have alot of mulling over to do... probably a month's worth or more (my decision making clock runs on "slow"), but if I really do end up going w/ PR I'll go through your link, Tina. I appreciate all the time you invest sharing about your experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annabel Lee Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) OK, I watched the PR sample DVD last night. I like what I see of PR so much that it's all the more discouraging how far "behind" we'd be in it. I looked at this (but didn't watch the DVD) about 9 months or so ago and thought I was too far down the path I am on to jump all the way back to the beginning with PR 1. I still feel that way about my 4th grader because he is "supposed" to be in the middle of level 4, and to cram 4 levels in as fast as we can would defeat the purpose of streamlining & relieving overwhelmedness. We're only about 9 months away from completing all the phonics components of his current line-up. PR would certainly fill gaps, but he's not struggling and would wonder why he's doing "baby work" (his term for the earlier levels of AAS, CLE LA, etc.). My other guy, 2nd gr., isn't struggling either and would probably wonder the same thing. He'll be done w/ all phonics components too (they'd both still have phonics "tips" in their spelling) before Christmas this year. To back up that far & have to work through so much more work seems discouraging. They were in the room when the DVD was playing & they both said "You're not going to make us sing like that, are you?" Ummmm... maybe. :) It's so thorough, it integrates things and applies them so the kids are using what they learn. I made a list of pros & cons and questions as I watched, hoping you or someone else here could address my concerns. -Starting point & re-learning known rules: For jumping in the middle w/ a 2nd & 4th grader, would we really have to go back & start at level 1? Do they have to learn so many rule tunes? What about for the rules they already know, but not verbatim the PR way (would they have to re-learn those "the PR way")? -Writing composition: From the DVD sample, I get the idea there's not much writing composition until the last few weeks of level 4. Yet, in the printed brochure it notes some writing assignments but doesn't really elaborate. I'm a WTM die-hard and want to make sure we stay close to that amount & level of writing. What would I do for writing while catching them up in the earlier PR levels if I did this? How long does PR take to get to paragraph instruction? It looks from the DVD like this is saved for the end of level 4. Does it teach the different kinds of paragraphs? My biggest concern with this: I can't have my 4th grader waiting to get through all 4 levels before returning to work on paragraphs. -WTM writing & great books: These are the hardest for me to let go of when I think of doing something other than WTM. I very much like the ideas for writing in history, science, & literature. It would be hard to let go of those great book lists for WTM reading/lit. (ETA: that is, the instructions/lists for Structured Reading, which serves as literature; not the history reading lists); hard to let go of the idea of preparing the kids for great books by having them read abridgements and authors they'll encounter later in HS. Ironically, these are also the 2 areas of WTM education that I haven't implemented well. I'm sold on the philosophy but I need a daily TM to understand what I'm supposed to be doing. If it's not spelled out to a "T" in a TM or in the WTM, I simply don't know on my own to do it (sad but true). If a curriculum author expects me to do something with my child, it has to be written in the book. Not b/c I'm unwilling otherwise, just b/c of my own education. I'm not a professor of literature, so I don't know when or how or even what literary terms/devices/etc. to teach as we go along. I noticed in TWTM logic stage Reading, there are Basic Skills: L.A. workbooks for 5th grade "Remedial Reading", some of which are for literary elements. How could dc be behind in that by 5th grade if there was not specific instruction to teach it to them in the 1st place? Am I making any sense? The thing I love the most, that I want so badly to work, is the thing I don't know how to make work. Does it sound like PR is even a good fit, given my children's ages? It's going to be rushrushrush whether I stay w/ what I've got or go the PR route, at least I think. Just in case people reading want to know, and to be fair, here's the pros I noticed: -PR combines the spelling log with word analyzation, rules and extensions of the words (affixes, plurals, etc.). It practices phonics by marking the spelling words, it practices spelling rules by identifying which rule applies to sounds in the spelling words, it teaches the meaning of various word extensions (a la Sequential Spelling and EftRU) by adding them to the spelling words while learning/practicing any rules for change in spelling to add them. -It accomplishes literature well, incl. terms, devices, and all that jazz; and incorporates the child reading aloud to the parent, so it also accomplishes "Oral Reading Practice" per WTM. -It has vocabulary, as it is teaching the meanings of roots and affixes. -It uses the dictionary not just for alphabetizing but to look up which parts of speech a word can be used as. -It has applied grammar and applied spelling, so they aren't separate disconnected subjects from the rest of L.A. -PR teaches & has kids practice making various tenses of words, and what the tenses mean. -PR introduces Latin, with the goal in Latin Road being to read (decode) Latin on your own. -The level of grammar by the time you're in PR 4 is very high (IMO), and I'm comparing to what I've got (FLL and R&S). Sorry for being so long-winded. :D I think you'll all just have to accept this is how I am and discern whether to spend time reading my blabberings or not, because I've tried being brief and I can't, lol. Edited January 20, 2011 by Annabel Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Hi. I will come back to you tomorrow :) I need to get some sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 OK, I watched the PR sample DVD last night. I like what I see of PR so much that it's all the more discouraging how far "behind" we'd be in it. I looked at this (but didn't watch the DVD) about 9 months or so ago and thought I was too far down the path I am on to jump all the way back to the beginning with PR 1. I still feel that way about my 4th grader because he is "supposed" to be in the middle of level 4, and to cram 4 levels in as fast as we can would defeat the purpose of streamlining & relieving overwhelmedness. I'll start with the reminder that PR is Not an annual program, but a Level program. While you can do one level per year, you don't need to. I started PR when dd was in 4th grade. We are in the middle of level 3 now and are working at regular pace. She won't be finished with level 4 until spring of 6th grade; which is actually perfect timing to start the Latin Road. I have no worries and I know our goals for grammar, spelling and writing are being well met. We're only about 9 months away from completing all the phonics components of his current line-up. PR would certainly fill gaps, Is what you're using working or do you have gaps? What is missing from your line up that has you searching? but he's not struggling and would wonder why he's doing "baby work" (his term for the earlier levels of AAS, CLE LA, etc.). We had the same questions from our dd and my response was I was fixing MY mistakes and making sure they had all the tools for success in middle school. Changing course in 4th grade is no big deal, especially when you can fly through the first 2 levels of PR; however, not fixing gaps now and attempting to do so in middle is a Nightmare -- a horrible nightmare and then he'll wonder why you're not only doing all the baby work, but also why he has SoMuchWork. When we hit middle school, we were remediating, but also moving forward, so the courseload was C-R-A-Z-Y, yet necessary. My other guy, 2nd gr., isn't struggling either and would probably wonder the same thing. He'll be done w/ all phonics components too (they'd both still have phonics "tips" in their spelling) before Christmas this year. To back up that far & have to work through so much more work seems discouraging. They were in the room when the DVD was playing & they both said "You're not going to make us sing like that, are you?" Ummmm... maybe. :) My Guitar Dude was none too happy about singing...at 13 years old....now I grumble at him to shut his mouth and not give away the songs to his younger bros. The songs come along when they start seeing there is purpose and that they work. It's so thorough, it integrates things and applies them so the kids are using what they learn. Are you seeing application from your 4th grader, now? If not, then something is missing. This has been the major difference I see in my 3 who have done or are doing PR -- application. My other children we not putting together sentences, with proper spelling, anywhere as well as my boys (2nd & 3rd graders) are now. I admit, that I'm a better teacher, but I used mostly scripted programs with the Elders, so it's not like I wasn't using the method correctly. That leads to my next question. Are you leaving out any portions of the programs you are using? Sometimes we leave something out and it ends up messing up the "whole." This is something else to consider. Allow me to give you an example that was pretty common back in the days: Using Spelling Power, but skipping dictation. Dictation is all about the application of language skills, so of course, a student who is acing spelling lists, but not really writing sentences (application of spelling) is not applying enough of the program to reap its benefits correctly. So, I repeat (b/c like you I think and write and can't be brief :D) are you skipping portions of your line up and in doing so, derailing its effectiveness? Starting with a 2nd or 3rd grader is NO big deal and you'll find you'll get through Level 1 very quickly and Level 2 at a descent enough pace. You can slow or quick as necessary and by the time you hit level 3, you'll Want to go at a daily pace. It is hard work to accelerate, but from the testimonies of many here, it's worthwhile. I made a list of pros & cons and questions as I watched, hoping you or someone else here could address my concerns. -Starting point & re-learning known rules: For jumping in the middle w/ a 2nd & 4th grader, would we really have to go back & start at level 1? Do they have to learn so many rule tunes? What about for the rules they already know, but not verbatim the PR way (would they have to re-learn those "the PR way")? My guess is they'd probably pick up the rules very quickly. I think it would be worth the 6-14 weeks to start at level 1, especially with the 2nd grader for most people are starting from scratch; however, you could get away with starting at level 2 with the 4th grader or your second grader if he has used AAS levels 1-3. I'm assuming that he still needs grammar instruction (never met a 4th grader that didn't benefit from it when their teacher was of the "grammar instruction" school of thought) and Level 2 is where grammar really kicks in. Additionally, starting the program and easing from spelling/phonics into grammar and then literature, makes sense as a progression scale and the program is intended to build upon itself. I reiterate, you could start at level 2, particularly b/c you can get all the Rule Tunes and the initial spelling words are review. You simply start from there and teach the markings that way. It works fine, imho, for older students, but I wouldn't rec. it for a 1st or 2nd grader who hasn't used AAS 1-3 or the like. -Writing composition: From the DVD sample, I get the idea there's not much writing composition until the last few weeks of level 4. You're impression is wrong. ;)The writing is great and actually follows WTM recs quite well. Yet, in the printed brochure it notes some writing assignments but doesn't really elaborate. I'm a WTM die-hard and want to make sure we stay close to that amount & level of writing. What would I do for writing while catching them up in the earlier PR levels if I did this? How long does PR take to get to paragraph instruction? It looks from the DVD like this is saved for the end of level 4. Does it teach the different kinds of paragraphs? My biggest concern with this: I can't have my 4th grader waiting to get through all 4 levels before returning to work on paragraphs. Read my blog. There are many, many examples of the writing in PR. I intentionally put them there. There is lots of dictation, used as clear application to connect spelling and grammar to writing and begins in Level 1. You'll focus on sentence writing pretty quickly. The application of writing is actually a Strength of the program. Go...go read my blog! :auto: Level 2 Level 3 Level 3 Level 4 There is More on my blog than this, but here's a start on the writing of the program. -WTM writing & great books: These are the hardest for me to let go of when I think of doing something other than WTM. I very much like the ideas for writing in history, science, & literature. It would be hard to let go of those great book lists for WTM reading/lit. (ETA: that is, the instructions/lists for Structured Reading, which serves as literature; not the history reading lists); hard to let go of the idea of preparing the kids for great books by having them read abridgements and authors they'll encounter later in HS. So don't let go of the booklist. Read them, by all means! And discuss them. That's just encouraging the Love of great books. Make sure you're filling in history and science w/ great literature, too and you'll meet the goal. You'll see that the writing instruction of PR will put you in a place quite similar to that of SWBs plan. I have some blog posts on applying what is taught in PR to science and history. Here is one example. Keep in mind, my boys were in level 2 when we did this work. Ironically, these are also the 2 areas of WTM education that I haven't implemented well. I'm sold on the philosophy but I need a daily TM to understand what I'm supposed to be doing. If it's not spelled out to a "T" in a TM or in the WTM, I simply don't know on my own to do it (sad but true). BTDT. If a curriculum author expects me to do something with my child, it has to be written in the book. Not b/c I'm unwilling otherwise, just b/c of my own education. I'm not a professor of literature, so I don't know when or how or even what literary terms/devices/etc. to teach as we go along. I noticed in TWTM logic stage Reading, there are Basic Skills: L.A. workbooks for 5th grade "Remedial Reading", some of which are for literary elements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 How could dc be behind in that by 5th grade if there was not specific instruction to teach it to them in the 1st place? Am I making any sense? The thing I love the most, that I want so badly to work, is the thing I don't know how to make work. PR won't take you into great depths of literary analysis, it instead brings language alive through literature and teaches the premise of lit. analysis. I have found TOG teacher's notes to be my teacher's manual for teaching literature. I know just what you mean, btw. Are we sisters? Does it sound like PR is even a good fit, given my children's ages? It's going to be rushrushrush whether I stay w/ what I've got or go the PR route, at least I think. It doesn't have to be rushrushrush. The beauty of home schooling comes into play. Speed up where you Can and slow down where you Need. PR will accomplish this. What are you goals for middle school language arts? Knowing this will really help me to say...skip PR or not for the 4th grader....of course, I'm already saying get PR for the second grader! Just in case people reading want to know, and to be fair, here's the pros I noticed: -PR combines the spelling log with word analyzation, rules and extensions of the words (affixes, plurals, etc.). It practices phonics by marking the spelling words, it practices spelling rules by identifying which rule applies to sounds in the spelling words, it teaches the meaning of various word extensions (a la Sequential Spelling and EftRU) by adding them to the spelling words while learning/practicing any rules for change in spelling to add them. It then applies these rules and words to writing application ala dictation and further to grammar via sentence parsing (continual application of the Whole of language arts). -It accomplishes literature well, incl. terms, devices, and all that jazz; and incorporates the child reading aloud to the parent, so it also accomplishes "Oral Reading Practice" per WTM. Which was an area I easily slacked on with the Elders b/c we spent so much time on the other group of programs we were using. Reading aloud fell to the wayside b/c they "could read chapter books" and in my err, I missed a few very important cues to our gaps in learning. PR covers the gaps,as a continual program, and "makes" me listen to read alouds! -It has vocabulary, as it is teaching the meanings of roots and affixes. We are LOVING this. It's so effective. -It uses the dictionary not just for alphabetizing but to look up which parts of speech a word can be used as. and to identify how a literal meaning of a word and the variety of meanings of a word (or words) is applicable. It's the first time I've ever felt we are getting all out of the dictionary that is available in the dictionary. -It has applied grammar and applied spelling, so they aren't separate disconnected subjects from the rest of L.A. -PR teaches & has kids practice making various tenses of words, and what the tenses mean. -PR introduces Latin, with the goal in Latin Road being to read (decode) Latin on your own. -The level of grammar by the time you're in PR 4 is very high (IMO), and I'm comparing to what I've got (FLL and R&S). That's why starting late and finishing in middle school is Not a big deal. If you pick up with the Latin Road after PR, you're completing High School level work. That really means completing PR4 by end of 8th grade keeps you on track! It puts your dc on the level of writing essays...well...sounds very WTMish, doesn't it?! Sorry for being so long-winded. I think you'll all just have to accept this is how I am and discern whether to spend time reading my blabberings or not, because I've tried being brief and I can't, lol. That's why I asked if we're sisters. Together, we may have the longest post ever!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArizonaGirl Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 It sounds to me like you just described Spalding. Look up Spalding Education International. The only thing missing would be diagramming sentences and Latin, although word roots are covered. To do the program as you describe, I would purchase the full homeschooling kit, especially the grade level Teacher's Manual. In reality, if you understand the program, you can use just Writing Road to Reading, the phonogram cards, and the pronunciation CD, but if you need help teaching specific things and knowing when, the teacher's manual is a huge help. Samples are on their website. We add in Growing with Grammar for diagramming practice, unless you are comfortable teaching that on your own. ( I never learned diagramming, so I need the help). Spalding will teach writing poetry, but you need to locate poems yourself and assign memorization. A very flexible literature list is included. You may want to ask for a placement spelling test to determine which teacher's guide is the best placing for your student. Ask about the recorded copies of the Home Educator's Online class that just ended last month. This will greatly help you implement the program. I hope you can find exactly what you are looking for. We use Spalding and a math program, and I feel the education of basics is complete. History and science reading suggestions are given in Spalding, but we do add more for those subjects. Best wishes in your search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I stared PR1 with my third dd this past fall (5 years old). She is now 6 and a little over halfway done. I am so beyond amazed and impressed with how well she is reading and spelling that I switched my 8yo two weeks ago. 8yo is already caught up in level 1 to where my 6yo is. She will continue to move forward at a quick pace. I think AAS, FLL, WWE, VIE and the other LA programs we've used are good, but PR has been so much simpler to implement. :) Yesterday I decided to switch my 10yo (5th grade). My plan for her is to start with level 3. This level starts with a review. I can get away with starting in level 3 because I know the rule tunes and such from PR1 (and will be watching the PR2 DVDs shortly). In your shoes, I would get the first three levels. Start the 2nd-grader with PR1. You watch all the DVDs from 1&2 so that you understand the background for level 3. Then start level 3 with your older ds. That's what I'm going to do. :) I'm hoping to start level 3 with my oldest before the end of this shool year. Hopefully we can finish 3&4 by 7th so that she can start LR1. All dds will continue to read literature from TWTM reading list. I wrote a literature program (free, link in my siggy) for them. I started pointing out literary devices and such, but it got too cumbersome. My focus is on background info for each book, discussion and summary questions, narrations, copywork, and dictation. I've done Modern and Ancients for grammar stage and am almost done with Ancients for logic stage. So, yeah. We are still going to read lots of books even though we are using PR. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I stared PR1 with my third dd this past fall (5 years old). She is now 6 and a little over halfway done. I am so beyond amazed and impressed with how well she is reading and spelling that I switched my 8yo two weeks ago. 8yo is already caught up in level 1 to where my 6yo is. She will continue to move forward at a quick pace. I think AAS, FLL, WWE, VIE and the other LA programs we've used are good, but PR has been so much simpler to implement. :) I'm so glad it's working well for you. Yesterday I decided to switch my 10yo (5th grade). My plan for her is to start with level 3. This level starts with a review. I can get away with starting in level 3 because I know the rule tunes and such from PR1 (and will be watching the PR2 DVDs shortly). In your shoes, I would get the first three levels. Start the 2nd-grader with PR1. You watch all the DVDs from 1&2 so that you understand the background for level 3. Then start level 3 with your older ds. That's what I'm going to do. :) I'm hoping to start level 3 with my oldest before the end of this shool year. Hopefully we can finish 3&4 by 7th so that she can start LR1. I love this plan. It makes good sense to allow yourself a feel for the program, then kick in remediation in level 3. All dds will continue to read literature from TWTM reading list. I wrote a literature program (free, link in my siggy) for them. I started pointing out literary devices and such, but it got too cumbersome. My focus is on background info for each book, discussion and summary questions, narrations, copywork, and dictation. I've done Modern and Ancients for grammar stage and am almost done with Ancients for logic stage. So, yeah. We are still going to read lots of books even though we are using PR. :) Oh, you temp me so! I'm gonna have to check out that list and cross reference your materials to our TOG lists...you may make our lit. discussions in grammar stage more interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annabel Lee Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 Crap. I just sat here and replied but it logged me out. This calls for homemade hot cocoa. I'll have to reply more later. Your replies give me new info to consider and though I've read your blog, Tina, a little the other day, thanks for the linking straight to the writing parts. I think I'm going to have DH read this thread. I thought we came to a decision last night to just keep on keepin' on with what we've got, but that was based on my erroneous assumption that LR was supposed to be completed by 8th grade and some other misunderstandings. Quick question: Would PR + IEW (mainly for ds9) + WTM Reading list be too much? I don't know what kind of time load that would look like. I want to inject more practice in writing, in producing something, into our hs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Crap. I just sat here and replied but it logged me out. This calls for homemade hot cocoa. I'll have to reply more later. I want some ;) Your replies give me new info to consider and though I've read your blog, Tina, a little the other day, thanks for the linking straight to the writing parts. I think I'm going to have DH read this thread. I thought we came to a decision last night to just keep on keepin' on with what we've got, but that was based on my erroneous assumption that LR was supposed to be completed by 8th grade and some other misunderstandings. Oh, no. My eldest will be in 10th grade (somewhere) before we finish LR and that is just fine. He could be in 12 and be alright. It's a high school course. It requires a mature student. Quick question: Would PR + IEW (mainly for ds9) + WTM Reading list be too much? I don't know what kind of time load that would look like. I want to inject more practice in writing, in producing something, into our hs. You may see a lot of overlap in IEW and PR, but the WTM reading list would be just fine. I'd suggest comparing their Table of Contents to the ones in my blog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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