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The other tragedy of the AZ shooting


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We all grieve at the dead from the AZ shootings--a little girl, people in the prime of life, grandparents. It is wonderful to read of Congresswoman Gifford's recovery, and to have hope that it can be a complete one.

 

Does anyone else really grieve for the effects of mental illness, though? I really cringe at articles that try to blame the parents of the AZ shooter. The descriptions of his rantings, writings, and behavior so clearly indicate mental illness, possible drug-induced.

 

Articles pointed out all the signs that people "missed." They didn't miss them--they noted them and reacted to them--from other students to the community college officials. But our laws are such that it is (nearly) impossible for anyone other than the mentally ill person to obtain treatment before they have demonstrated that they are a danger to themselves or others. A good solid threat might be grounds for involuntary commitment, but mostly action is required.

 

Our laws used to be 180 degrees the other direction: people could drive a relative to a mental hospital and sign em in. Sometimes this was for life. There were few checks and balances.

 

But now, I think, we've gone too far the other way, but it is a very complicated issue. I worked for a couple of years in a program for the chronically mentally ill (mostly with schizophrenia) who were doing well. The goal of the program was to help them get jobs and to help move towards independence or at least fuller adult lives.

 

However, there would periodically be relapses. Everyone could see these coming, but the Catch-22 was that once you saw the initial signs, the patient himself was no longer rationale and often stopped taking meds and refused to see a doctor. We were all--parents and staff--helpless to do anything but watch the downward spiral. One guy we were finally able to act on when he threated to get a shotgun and shoot the director and went home to get it. Commitment at last.

 

These same folks would, in a well state, really regret the downward spirals and wish they could have been prevented. They could acknowledge the pattern when well, but also knew that once the symptoms appeared that they couldn't make good decisions. But our laws don't currently allow any prevention. We need protections from quirky people being locked up; we need some protections that allow people to refuse treatment including some drugs; but what we have right now isn't quite the right balance. Maybe it's the best we can get. I don't know. I used to wonder if people in their right minds could be allowed to sign pre-commitment papers: if I ever do x,y,z in the future, I give permission to be hospitalized. But I suppose those could be coerced. <sigh>

 

Anyway, despite the horrors of what he's done, I feel sorry for the parents of the gunman and for his young life thrown away. I hope that now that he's incarcerated, he'll get treatment--though what will it be like for him if he can get to a rational state? It's very sad all round.

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But our laws are such that it is (nearly) impossible for anyone other than the mentally ill person to obtain treatment before they have demonstrated that they are a danger to themselves or others. A good solid threat might be grounds for involuntary commitment, but mostly action is required.

 

 

 

 

 

:iagree:I'm all for individual rights, but I'm so tired of the many suffering for the few. In almost all of these types of situations, those close to the perpetrator say they knew it was coming, that they tried to seek help. When, oh when, will we start taking these early signs seriously?

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:iagree:I'm all for individual rights, but I'm so tired of the many suffering for the few. In almost all of these types of situations, those close to the perpetrator say they knew it was coming, that they tried to seek help. When, oh when, will we start taking these early signs seriously?

 

I agree. But often, the few suffer also. Many of our homeless are mentally ill and yes, they have their rights and their freedom, but they're also starving, suffering and freezing to death. I don't pretend to know the answers, but everyone is being hurt in our current situation.

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When I was a child, I remember visiting my aunt in the state mental hospital. I remember the sadness and fear. I remember how my mother grieved for the joyful and loving sister who was sometimes lost in her own mind.

 

My s-i-l lost her beautiful sister to mental illness 2 years ago. The parents tried EVERYTHING to have her care committed to them. She would "stabilize" in treatment and be released, continuing the pattern of taking herself off meds and self-destructing all over again. She was an adult and the judge told them they could not be responsible for her any longer.

 

In one downward spiral she ran off the road and was killed.

 

It could have been that she injured/killed others, but she didn't.

 

There was nothing they could do to stop it.

 

Mental illness is so misunderstood. There is no way to know what the parents of the AZ shooter went through --- we don't know if they sought help or if they tried tough love or if they contributed to his instability through neglect or abuse.

 

We don't know. And I feel for them.

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Mental illness is so misunderstood. There is no way to know what the parents of the AZ shooter went through --- we don't know if they sought help or if they tried tough love or if they contributed to his instability through neglect or abuse.

 

 

:iagree: My father killed himself 4 years ago. I knew he was depressed. He kept making comments about killing himself and would call me up crying on the phone. I called hotlines trying to get help for him, but was told over and over that unless he made the call himself or unless he made a direct and immediate threat (as in, "I have a gun, and when I hang up the phone with you I'm going to shoot myself) there was nothing anyone could do. So he died. Could it have been prevented? I don't know for sure, but at least if he had gotten help and it hadn't worked, I wouldn't have this nagging feeling that there should have been more done to prevent such a senseless tragedy.

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I agree. But often, the few suffer also. Many of our homeless are mentally ill and yes, they have their rights and their freedom, but they're also starving, suffering and freezing to death. I don't pretend to know the answers, but everyone is being hurt in our current situation.

 

Yes. I wonder if being iinvoluntarily incarcerated or being homeless is worse, though I know homeless people who state that they prefer to live that way and refuse offers of help or even of homes or places to stay. Someone in our area actually bought a house for a homeless person. I'm wondering how that will work out.

 

I guess it's partly the old freedom or security argument. Mental hospitals in the sense that they used to be run were not places you'd want to be.

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I agree. His downward spiral was tragic, and current laws do little to help these people.

 

Sure, they're rational in a hospital or group home where their medications are monitored...studies have shown that when placed in a facility with a set routine and daily medications, people with schizophrenia thrive. It's just when they go out on their own and have to maintain their own activities of daily living that it falls apart.

 

It must be hard on families who watch their loved ones reacting to auditory and visual hallucinations, delusions, and all the negative symptoms associated with schizophrenia and not be able to do anything about it until they harm themselves or someone else.

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The vast majority of mentally ill people don't harm anyone but themselves. I've known lots of people who behaved like the shooter in AZ -- but they've never shot anyone. So how would we know that one particular person was going to do this?

 

And just putting someone in a mental hospital or otherwise getting them help doesn't guarantee the person will not harm themselves. We had a family member commit suicide while in a mental hospital. It's not that hard to do, if one is determined, unfortunately.

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:iagree: My father killed himself 4 years ago. I knew he was depressed. He kept making comments about killing himself and would call me up crying on the phone. I called hotlines trying to get help for him, but was told over and over that unless he made the call himself or unless he made a direct and immediate threat (as in, "I have a gun, and when I hang up the phone with you I'm going to shoot myself) there was nothing anyone could do. So he died. Could it have been prevented? I don't know for sure, but at least if he had gotten help and it hadn't worked, I wouldn't have this nagging feeling that there should have been more done to prevent such a senseless tragedy.

 

:grouphug:

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The vast majority of mentally ill people don't harm anyone but themselves. I've known lots of people who behaved like the shooter in AZ -- but they've never shot anyone. So how would we know that one particular person was going to do this?

 

And just putting someone in a mental hospital or otherwise getting them help doesn't guarantee the person will not harm themselves. We had a family member commit suicide while in a mental hospital. It's not that hard to do, if one is determined, unfortunately.

 

:iagree: The other problem with committing people is determining what kinds of behavior and words are grounds for committing someone. I can see that turning into something dangerous that would be abused in an attempt to control people or lock away people who don't "think right."

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The vast majority of mentally ill people don't harm anyone but themselves. I've known lots of people who behaved like the shooter in AZ -- but they've never shot anyone. So how would we know that one particular person was going to do this?

 

 

 

Of course we can never know for sure, but some people are more overt than others. Loughner talked and wrote about killing people, hurting babies, etc. People who make threats like that need to be looked at, and (somehow) never, never allowed to purchase firearms.

Edited by Mejane
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The vast majority of mentally ill people don't harm anyone but themselves. I've known lots of people who behaved like the shooter in AZ -- but they've never shot anyone. So how would we know that one particular person was going to do this?

 

And just putting someone in a mental hospital or otherwise getting them help doesn't guarantee the person will not harm themselves. We had a family member commit suicide while in a mental hospital. It's not that hard to do, if one is determined, unfortunately.

 

This is true in terms of most mentally ill people not being violent.

 

In this particular case, I think there were probably warning signs of violence because of the number of people who knew him who felt fear--like the 50 yr old classmate that sat near the door. I think that's similar to the feelings one can get about not getting into the elevator with a particular stranger. But we have no way to quantify those gut feelings people have .

 

I do wonder if he had gotten proper medication if this whole thing could have been prevented.

 

:iagree: The other problem with committing people is determining what kinds of behavior and words are grounds for committing someone. I can see that turning into something dangerous that would be abused in an attempt to control people or lock away people who don't "think right."

 

I totally agree. That's what is so hard about this. And so tragic. That's why I feel for his family and for him. Because I used to volunteer back in college at the state mental hospital (before deinstitutionalization), I actually met sane people who had been locked up by relatives decades before. That was the other side of the pendulum. And back in the days of the really bad antipsychotics that used to cause tardive dyskinesia (sp?) --should someone not have been able to refuse those? What about Fannie what's her name--the movie star whose mother forced a lobotomy on her. That's one extreme.

 

But I wonder if there is some middle ground, possibly what I suggested in the OP about having people pre-authorize commitment as a form of voluntary commitment.

 

It's really hard.

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I didn't read the whole thread. I am infuriated with how America treats mental illness. My sister is bipolar. She is a diabetic with brain lesions that have led to her bipolar diagnosis. She has ss disability and a small pension. She lives with my mom. She is on medicare, but it will not cover the insanely expensive drug that actually helps her to function. Before she started this drug, my mom and I were ready to run away from her. It was so hard on everyone. Finally, a wonder drug that works. Oh, but it costs $350 a MONTH!!! Oh and don't forget her insulin that costs another $200 a months. She pays a over a third of her income for meds. If she didn't have that small pension and the chance to live with my mom, she would have to go without her meds. At one point, she was so nasty to people that she was banned from the Walmart pharmacy. She was just so irrational. With proper treatment, she is a joy to be around. It is like night and day. I hate that this country does not think providing medical treatment for human beings is not important. I hate that we think taking care of every other country is. Okay, I am off my soap box now.

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. The descriptions of his rantings, writings, and behavior so clearly indicate mental illness, possible drug-induced.

 

.

 

I would like to hear more about this. The shooter has a history of drug use. In an interview, a friend claims that he was using salvia. (I'd never heard of salvia until recently when I read a story and saw the youtube link showing Miley Cyrus smoking it at a party.)

 

Following the AZ shooting I heard plenty about controlling "vitriolic" speech and gun ownership, but I've not heard anything negative directed at the people who support the legalization of marijuana. I would like to know more about "which came first"...the schizophrenia/mental illness or the use of mind-altering drugs.

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I didn't read the whole thread. I am infuriated with how America treats mental illness. My sister is bipolar. She is a diabetic with brain lesions that have led to her bipolar diagnosis. She has ss disability and a small pension. She lives with my mom. She is on medicare, but it will not cover the insanely expensive drug that actually helps her to function. Before she started this drug, my mom and I were ready to run away from her. It was so hard on everyone. Finally, a wonder drug that works. Oh, but it costs $350 a MONTH!!! Oh and don't forget her insulin that costs another $200 a months. She pays a over a third of her income for meds. If she didn't have that small pension and the chance to live with my mom, she would have to go without her meds. At one point, she was so nasty to people that she was banned from the Walmart pharmacy. She was just so irrational. With proper treatment, she is a joy to be around. It is like night and day. I hate that this country does not think providing medical treatment for human beings is not important. I hate that we think taking care of every other country is. Okay, I am off my soap box now.

 

Medicare is a perfect example of why we don't need the government running healthcare. Instead of paying for a bunch of &$& that doesn't work, how about paying for the one thing that does? Too simple, apparently.

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I would like to hear more about this. The shooter has a history of drug use. In an interview, a friend claims that he was using salvia. (I'd never heard of salvia until recently when I read a story and saw the youtube link showing Miley Cyrus smoking it at a party.)

 

Following the AZ shooting I heard plenty about controlling "vitriolic" speech and gun ownership, but I've not heard anything negative directed at the people who support the legalization of marijuana. I would like to know more about "which came first"...the schizophrenia/mental illness or the use of mind-altering drugs.

 

For people with a genetic propensity, even "minor" use of drugs can trigger psychosis. This guy sounds schizophrenic to me, but almost certainly some form of pyschosis. A manic bipolar episode can also be accompanied by a psychotic break. It sounds like he's had disorganized thinking for quite a while. That's more schizophrenic. Then of course, people with psychosis can abuse drugs as well--sometimes in an attempt to self-medicate.

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I agree. His downward spiral was tragic, and current laws do little to help these people.

 

Sure, they're rational in a hospital or group home where their medications are monitored...studies have shown that when placed in a facility with a set routine and daily medications, people with schizophrenia thrive. It's just when they go out on their own and have to maintain their own activities of daily living that it falls apart.

 

It must be hard on families who watch their loved ones reacting to auditory and visual hallucinations, delusions, and all the negative symptoms associated with schizophrenia and not be able to do anything about it until they harm themselves or someone else.

:iagree: This is all due to the 60's/70's Patient Rights Movement. Many mentally ill (and developmentally disabled who were not mentally ill) were institutionalized for life. Though the situation was light years "better" from mental asylums of the 1700s or 1800s with barbaric treatment.

 

The ACLU had good intentions of spearheading the law getting patient rights for the mentally ill. But the govt created with that law (institutions closing, homeless mentally ill population growing in the 1980's, parents unable to get their adult children help due to patient rights, etc.) is a nightmare. Once mentally ill people are over the age of 18, parents legally cannot force them to get help or take their meds. I'm sure the parents of that AZ gunshooter were in their own nightmarish world with him and not able to help him. (I speak this from my DH's experience with his sister being paranoid schizophrenic and his family not being able to truly help her when she was in many a dangerous situation.)

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I agree, but I haven't heard anything that makes me think the parents tried to get him help. From what I've read, the parents sound like they may have issues themselves. Apparently, Arizona is the one state in the nation where it is fairly easy to get someone committed.

 

I agree that it's far too difficult to have someone committed. But I'm not sure anyone ever tried in this situation.

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Did anyone see the woman that was saved by her husband stepping in front of her and as a result he lost his life? She was interviewed on one of the morning shows last week. Remarkable woman...such a loss of a wonderful husband as well from what she said. But one of the things that caught both my husband and my attention was how she spoke in a forgiving way about the killer and that she realized he ruined his life as well. Amazing that someone in that situation can say those words...and yes, I feel sooo sad for his parents. I can't imagine their pain.

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I agree, but I haven't heard anything that makes me think the parents tried to get him help. From what I've read, the parents sound like they may have issues themselves. Apparently, Arizona is the one state in the nation where it is fairly easy to get someone committed.

 

I agree that it's far too difficult to have someone committed. But I'm not sure anyone ever tried in this situation.

 

Other than releasing a statement of grief for the victims, they have chosen to stay out of the media spotlight, which is wise, imo. We really don't know what they did or didn't try to do.

 

Thanks for the info on the AZ law. You're right; it is totally different than most other state laws. I followed up on that and is very interesting: any person who had suspected that he was "mentally ill and didn't know it" could have reported it to public health and they would have gone to him and done an evaluation. That would have included any of his classmates. I wonder if that law is generally known in AZ given how many expressed concern at the community college, but didn't call. (Public mental health said they never got a call, but that he could have been treated by private mental health officials.)

Edited by Laurie4b
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It is possible to force an emergency psychiatric evaluation of a person you are afraid of or believe may commit suicide. The system is imperfect because the outcome depends on the reliability of the evaluator, and not all emergency rooms are staffed 24\7 with competent psychiatric professionals.

 

In my state it is called an "emergency petition" and it just means a phone call to the police with an expression of what you fear the problem is and why you believe the person needs an emergency psychiatric evaluation. Once you have summoned the police for this purpose, they are supposed to take the person into involuntary custody until the evaluation is completed. Legally, emergency rooms are supposed to ensure the person does not leave until this has been done.

 

I hope some help may come of having this knowledge.

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It is possible to force an emergency psychiatric evaluation of a person you are afraid of or believe may commit suicide. The system is imperfect because the outcome depends on the reliability of the evaluator, and not all emergency rooms are staffed 24\7 with competent psychiatric professionals.

 

In my state it is called an "emergency petition" and it just means a phone call to the police with an expression of what you fear the problem is and why you believe the person needs an emergency psychiatric evaluation. Once you have summoned the police for this purpose, they are supposed to take the person into involuntary custody until the evaluation is completed. Legally, emergency rooms are supposed to ensure the person does not leave until this has been done.

 

I hope some help may come of having this knowledge.

 

For many states, that is not possible. For many, they not only have to be a "danger to self or others" but an "imminent" danger to self or others.

 

If an "emergency petition" just means a phone call to the police, that sounds ripe for other kinds of abuse. At the very least, a mental health professional should be on the other end of the phone evaluating the situation, not the police. I can imagine that certain types of people would use that like they now use a CPS call: to harrass a neighbor, revenge,etc. (Not saying all CPS calls are like that, but some definitely are.) Is there more to the law in MD than calling the police and the person being involuntarily taken to the ER? Sounds scary to me.

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Medicare is a perfect example of why we don't need the government running healthcare. Instead of paying for a bunch of &$& that doesn't work, how about paying for the one thing that does? Too simple, apparently.

 

I don't agree with this. If my sister did not have medicare, her many, many hospital visits and doctor visits would not be covered at all. She would be left to fend for herself and just hope to get some medical care. I know because I have a friend that does not have insurance and is a diabetic. She has to go without to afford insulin. I am very thankful for what medicare does cover. I just want to see it go further and cover more. I want to see meds be covered for ANY human being that needs them. If the science is finding answers, I see no reason for people to go without the answers.

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As you said they may have issues themselves. But I also want to mention that when you live with a person you are sometimes the last person to notice they are off.

Oh, yes, ITA. However, in this case, the college spoke with the parents themselves and told them he could not return until he had a mental evaluation. So if they didn't follow through with this, they failed to help their son.

 

To have a college contact parents with this kind of concern, it would have to be really serious. You'd have to be in major denial to ignore it.

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I do not understand why school counselors did not contact social services, etc. and why this young man never received any sort of treatment (or none that I've heard of, anyway). His ramblings sound like schizophrenia to me.....

 

I mean, WHY where they all helpless to do anything but watch the downward spiral? Is it illegal to commit people now?

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I mean, WHY where they all helpless to do anything but watch the downward spiral? Is it illegal to commit people now?

 

Not illegal, but it's difficult and the threshold is high. The parents were in a no-win situation. Even if parents of a troubled teen/young adult can find a professional willing to take the necessary steps, there are issues of who pays--treatment is very expensive and medical coverage varies a lot. Then, too, there's the problem of availability of beds in treatment centers. Most are overcrowded, and can only stabilize, medicate, and release. The expectation is that there will be outpatient followup, but for young adults, parents can't force them to keep appointments or take meds.

 

You have to balance today's situation, which I agree is not good, with the 1950's and 1960's when people languished in institutions and were sometimes more harmed than helped by their treatment. However, IMO, it's time to re-think some of the policies which were put in place in the late '60's and early '70's.

 

FWIW, many years ago I remember one of my professors in a deviance class talk about the assumptions made by researchers in the 1930's about schizophrenics being mentally ill due to living in dysfunctional families. He thought the dysfunctions observed more likely arose from the family's attempts to deal with a family member who was not capable of behaving rationally. That's why I take stories about the family's general demeanor in this or similar cases with a grain of salt.

Edited by Martha in NM
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But I'm not aware that it is-I am a doctor who spends some time, not all my time, in EDs and it's not unusual to be "EP'd" but I've yet to see it abused-maybe that's just because I see people at the wrong point in their visit. It certainly beats having a system where people believe that there is no way to stop a slow-motion train wreck until it is too late. I've done an EP on someone, and I had to complete paperwork explaining why I thought the person was dangerous.

 

Anyway, just wanted to put that out there as a small public service announcement.

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Isn't this all speculation though? That the parents didn't try. He is an adult. You can tell your adult child to do something, but you can't make them do it. And in many cases even when people don't get help, they don't necessarily go out and kill a bunch of people. Mental illness is not rare, but doing something like this is relatively rare among those with a mental illness.

Yes, it's speculation. I'm speculating that he didn't get help, because there isn't any evidence that he did. Maybe he did and no one's talking. But that would surprise me.

 

In Arizona, you can make them do it. If they won't go with you, you call the police, and they will have them committed. But cost *is* an issue, and you really can't make them follow up or take their meds. But I disagree that they couldn't have had him committed, at least for an initial evaluation.

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:iagree: My father killed himself 4 years ago. I knew he was depressed. He kept making comments about killing himself and would call me up crying on the phone. I called hotlines trying to get help for him, but was told over and over that unless he made the call himself or unless he made a direct and immediate threat (as in, "I have a gun, and when I hang up the phone with you I'm going to shoot myself) there was nothing anyone could do. So he died. Could it have been prevented? I don't know for sure, but at least if he had gotten help and it hadn't worked, I wouldn't have this nagging feeling that there should have been more done to prevent such a senseless tragedy.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug:

 

Sandy

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:iagree: My father killed himself 4 years ago. I knew he was depressed. He kept making comments about killing himself and would call me up crying on the phone. I called hotlines trying to get help for him, but was told over and over that unless he made the call himself or unless he made a direct and immediate threat (as in, "I have a gun, and when I hang up the phone with you I'm going to shoot myself) there was nothing anyone could do. So he died. Could it have been prevented? I don't know for sure, but at least if he had gotten help and it hadn't worked, I wouldn't have this nagging feeling that there should have been more done to prevent such a senseless tragedy.

 

:grouphug: Words can't even describe what I'm thinking, so sad for you, your dad, everyone.

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:iagree: My father killed himself 4 years ago. I knew he was depressed. He kept making comments about killing himself and would call me up crying on the phone. I called hotlines trying to get help for him, but was told over and over that unless he made the call himself or unless he made a direct and immediate threat (as in, "I have a gun, and when I hang up the phone with you I'm going to shoot myself) there was nothing anyone could do. So he died. Could it have been prevented? I don't know for sure, but at least if he had gotten help and it hadn't worked, I wouldn't have this nagging feeling that there should have been more done to prevent such a senseless tragedy.

 

:grouphug::grouphug: I'm so sorry.

 

He thought the dysfunctions observed more likely arose from the family's attempts to deal with a family member who was not capable of behaving rationally. That's why I take stories about the family's general demeanor in this or similar cases with a grain of salt.

 

I SO see this in the parent's press release. I feel *so* bad for them. Your bolded-yes. Absolutely.

 

And I agree-the laws need to be rewritten.

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I do not understand why school counselors did not contact social services, etc. and why this young man never received any sort of treatment (or none that I've heard of, anyway). His ramblings sound like schizophrenia to me.....

 

I mean, WHY where they all helpless to do anything but watch the downward spiral? Is it illegal to commit people now?

 

He's 22, so social services cannot be called if you mean like CPS. In Az, apparently anyone could have called mental health though for them to come and evaluate him.

 

Involuntaryily committing someone in most states is very hard to do . In many states, you have to prove an imminent danger to self or others. The way the law is in some states is so strict that they have to either have already done something or they have to be making a specific, credible threat. Not "Somebody's going to pay, " but "I'm going home and get my shotgun and blow your head off." As I posted in the OP, in our state, we (as staff in a mental health facility) and family would have to watch the downward spiral, totally helpless. I found out via this thread that AZ actually has a pretty progressive law compared to most places.

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However, there would periodically be relapses. Everyone could see these coming, but the Catch-22 was that once you saw the initial signs, the patient himself was no longer rationale and often stopped taking meds and refused to see a doctor. We were all--parents and staff--helpless to do anything but watch the downward spiral. One guy we were finally able to act on when he threated to get a shotgun and shoot the director and went home to get it. Commitment at last.

 

.

 

THIS!! As soon as I read the first line of newsprint that described the shooter, I knew he had schizophrenia. My BIL has it, and it is heartbreaking. We can't keep him on meds, we can't commit him, we can't even access his medical records! He's been arrested for assault twice in the last 2 years. Neither time did they keep him in the psych hospital for more than a couple of weeks. He scares me. Our hands are absolutely tied. I feel so sad for this guy's parents. He is so, so sick. What he did was gut wrenching, but I still feel sad for him as well. One probably couldn't understand that unless you knew someone with this disease. Thankfully, I met my BIL before his break. I've known him since he was a 15 year old, getting into no good with the wrong crowd. Then as an 18yo, straightening himself out, working at a bank, and getting accepted into UC Berkeley. He was a funny, intelligent guy. It's heartbreaking to think about who he was, compared to who he is now.

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To me, this is the saddest thing about mental illness. The person that he or she was completely disappears, and that loss is terrible.

 

Or I've worked with schizophrenics who would express their situation such that they could take the meds and not be crazy, but not be themselves at all (ie the meds dulled everything, even their real "selves") or they could not take meds, keep something of their personality, but be crazy with voices, instrusive thoughts, etc. I know the drugs now are better, but this to me was so heartbreaking. To carry your enemy always within you--to never be able to get away from it.

 

And if in this state, they commit a horrendous act such as murder? What do you do? Confine them in a regular prison with the regular population? I am not even sure our state has centers for the criminally insane anymore due to budget in the last several years.

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