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What if we don't have time for logic? I need a logic lifeline...


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The truth is that we've never done logic. The truth is that for years our school day, for whatever reason, takes ALL day. There has never been time for anything more than basic school subjects. When we started homeschooling, I didn't know about TWTM, and I had no idea that we should study logic. My kids are in 7th, 5th, and 2nd this year, and I feel my time with the oldest is slipping away.

 

Now, my kids play chess, Clue and the Nancy Drew computer games. All of these use "logic". But we've never used a logic curriculum book in school. I have all three Dandylion books that I wanted to use this year, but our school subjects truly take from 8-4ish to finish.

 

My 7th grader uses Lial's BCM, BJU Life Science DVD, Analytical Grammar, Megawords, SWB middle school writing for science/history,Biblioplan ancients, LLftLotR (orally with 5th grade brother), Rosetta Stone Spanish.

 

My 5th grader uses CLE 5th math, BJU Life Science (watches videos)/SWB middle school writing for science/history, CLE 5th LA, Apples and Pears Spelling, Biblioplan ancient history, LLftLotR (orally), and Rosetta Stone Spanish.

 

I have a 2nd grader. It will be much easier to start him in Logic next year. I'll use the Dandylion books that I already have.

 

This is a full schedule for us. Logic just doesn't fit.

 

I haven't been able to work Logic into dd's 8th grade schedule for next year either. Several of you were so kind to critique that schedule for me a few days ago. I've been looking at different logic books that everyone seems to use, and I just can't see how to find the time to cram it into our schedule. To be honest, if I put Traditional Logic (or something similar) in front of dd she would HATE it. I know it's important. If we don't do logic, how bad will that be? I'm really having a hard time finding a solution to this problem.

 

In 9th grade, I'm tentatively planning to use MFW high school. They schedule Thinkiing Toolbox and Fallacy Detective. If we did those in 9th will that be enough? I read a little about The Rulebook of Argument last night. if she outlined that book per SWB's recommendations after FD and TT will that work? I know this is rhetoric... I think logic and rhetoric must go hand in hand, but I'm not sure what the relationship is.

 

I need help knowing how to add in logic in the most efficient way. Which Logic curriculua will be the best bang for the TIME? (or lack of time...:tongue_smilie:) Really, I don't see how to add Logic in. If you could throw me logic lifeline, what would it be? How would you fill in the blank..."If you could only do one logic program, it should be __________." Could you offer a simple progression or prioritized list or ideas of how to incorporate logic into a tight schedule? I would be happy to hear about non-traditional ways of doing Logic as well.

And, if all fails, and we skip logic, what are the consequences????

 

Thanks so much for any advice!

Edited by Sweet Home Alabama
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I can't really answer your question, but I will say that I'm doing Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox with my 7th grader this year, and it only takes about 15 minutes twice a week. So if you did decide to try to work it into 8th grade, it really wouldn't take a huge amount of your time.

 

Wish I could answer your other questions better. Hope someone else chimes in.

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I can't really answer your question, but I will say that I'm doing Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox with my 7th grader this year, and it only takes about 15 minutes twice a week. So if you did decide to try to work it into 8th grade, it really wouldn't take a huge amount of your time.

 

Wish I could answer your other questions better. Hope someone else chimes in.

 

Thanks, Megan! I didn't realize TT and FD would take only 15 min twice a week! This is encouraging.

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We have done/are doing the logic liftoff series. It is about 15 mins three times a week for us. Half the time, ds has done it and I didn't even realize he had started.

 

Now, when he is in 7th or 8th we will start a formal logic program and that will take more time. But, I am figuring prob 30 or 40 mins three times a week.

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We have done/are doing the logic liftoff series. It is about 15 mins three times a week for us. Half the time, ds has done it and I didn't even realize he had started.

 

Now, when he is in 7th or 8th we will start a formal logic program and that will take more time. But, I am figuring prob 30 or 40 mins three times a week.

 

Thanks, Redsquirrel! Ok, so I schedule logic 3x/wk and voc 2x/wk. Then we're able to do both of these subjects. I would guess an 8th grader would need the more formal logic. I am concerned that the more formal the logic is the harder and potentially more challenging.

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The Orbiting with Logic books are great, but are not at all necessary to move into formal logic. I think 8th/9th grade is a perfect time to study formal logic. We've used TT and FD in 7th/8th grade, but, again, neither are prerequisites for doing formal logic later. In fact, fallacies are covered in many formal logic programs. For us, there seems to be a short window of time in which we can fit logic. My kids can fit formal logic into their schedule in 8th and 9th grades, but by 10th - 12th grades, their schedule is too full with other substantial classes.

 

All that to say, I wouldn't worry one bit. You're oldest is at a perfect point to begin with some fallacies and then move into formal logic.

 

HTH,

Lisa

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While I am a huge advocate of teaching logic, it is not a deal breaker if it doesn't get done. I will add that each TL book can be spread over 1 year which cuts the time investment in half. It can be scheduled twice weekly for about 30 minutes each day. TL II might entail a greater time investment, as it is a leap from TL I.

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While I am a huge advocate of teaching logic, it is not a deal breaker if it doesn't get done. I will add that each TL book can be spread over 1 year which cuts the time investment in half. It can be scheduled twice weekly for about 30 minutes each day. TL II might entail a greater time investment, as it is a leap from TL I.

 

From FloridaLisa

The Orbiting with Logic books are great, but are not at all necessary to move into formal logic. I think 8th/9th grade is a perfect time to study formal logic. We've used TT and FD in 7th/8th grade, but, again, neither are prerequisites for doing formal logic later. In fact, fallacies are covered in many formal logic programs. For us, there seems to be a short window of time in which we can fit logic. My kids can fit formal logic into their schedule in 8th and 9th grades, but by 10th - 12th grades, their schedule is too full with other substantial classes.

 

Gratia and FloridaLisa, thank you so much! I just looked at Traditional Logic again. I just can't get excited about this! Maybe this is because of my lack of experience. I KNOW this would not fly here. What logic comes before TL?

 

I guess it would be Critical Thinking..... if we did CT in 8th and then Fallacy Detective/Thinking Toolbox with MFW high school history in 9th, then maybe we could think of something like this.

 

I feel very inadequate. So many do logic way before 7th/8th which is where we are.

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I feel very inadequate. So many do logic way before 7th/8th which is where we are.

 

I don't think most people do actual logic way before 7th/8th grades - they do logic *preparation* (like Mind Benders, CT, and the other ones listed in this thread). As well, I don't see many people here talking about doing actual logic in grades 7 and 8...I see many people talking about doing it in early high school. So, I don't think you need to feel inadequate - I don't think you are too late for anything!

 

If we don't do logic, how bad will that be? I'm really having a hard time finding a solution to this problem.

 

I read a little about The Rulebook of Argument last night. if she outlined that book per SWB's recommendations after FD and TT will that work?

 

I know this is rhetoric... I think logic and rhetoric must go hand in hand, but I'm not sure what the relationship is.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=910524&highlight=weston#post910524 Maybe post #37 by SWB will put your mind at ease....

 

In my understanding, logic is preparation for rhetoric. You will incorporate logical (orderly) thinking into your rhetorical (embellished? flowery? dressed up? eloquent?) writing. Which is supposed to make your writing/thinking flow more smoothly and be understandable to people.

 

I'm just at the beginning of actual logic study (and stumbling through it) with TL 1. But, it *can* be spread out. It's meant to be a semester study for high schoolers, but here in grade 7, we are spreading it out over a year. I don't know why you couldn't do that in a later grade, too, if you wanted to - it would make it be in small chunks each week.

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I feel that my older son is learning logic now at 7th grade doing Fallacy Detective. All the other things prior to that were just logic tools, but I don't think formal logic is even taught until high school. At least, that is when I am going to teach it.

 

Blessings in your homeschooling journey!

 

Sincerely,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

Edited by Testimony
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I don't think most people do actual logic way before 7th/8th grades - they do logic *preparation* (like Mind Benders, CT, and the other ones listed in this thread). As well, I don't see many people here talking about doing actual logic in grades 7 and 8...I see many people talking about doing it in early high school. So, I don't think you need to feel inadequate - I don't think you are too late for anything!

 

 

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=910524&highlight=weston#post910524 Maybe post #37 by SWB will put your mind at ease....

 

In my understanding, logic is preparation for rhetoric. You will incorporate logical (orderly) thinking into your rhetorical (embellished? flowery? dressed up? eloquent?) writing. Which is supposed to make your writing/thinking flow more smoothly and be understandable to people.

 

I'm just at the beginning of actual logic study (and stumbling through it) with TL 1. But, it *can* be spread out. It's meant to be a semester study for high schoolers, but here in grade 7, we are spreading it out over a year. I don't know why you couldn't do that in a later grade, too, if you wanted to - it would make it be in small chunks each week.

 

 

Colleen, this was great to read! Thank you so much for explaining the relationship between logic and rhetoric! Also, thank you for the link to SWB's comment. It does take the pressure off.

 

I was at the Classical Christian Homeschooling page earlier. They also recommend A Rulebook for Argument and they say something about using logic 1st semester before using ARfA in 2nd. I'm going to read more to try to find out what logic would preceed ARfa.

 

I may be totally wrong.... someone correct me if I am.... but I *think* I'm going to try to move toward the direction of using A Rulebook for Argument and try to do whatever relevant logic that will get us ready for that.

 

I looked at Traditional Logic earlier this evening. I can't even imagine using that right now. NO WAY. It's good to know that there really is a solution here for us.... um... I just have to find out what it is!:tongue_smilie:

 

Thanks so much!

Edited by Sweet Home Alabama
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I feel that my older son is learning logic now at 7th grade doing Fallacy Detective. All the other things prior to that were just logic tools, but I don't think formal logic is even taught until high school. At least, that is when I am going to teach it.

 

Blessings in your homeschooling journey!

 

Sincerely,

Karen

www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

 

 

Karen, thanks for responding! I'm thinking that if we use MFW in 9th high school history, that would be the time to use Fallacy Detective and TT.

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I may be totally wrong.... someone correct me if I am.... but I *think* I'm going to try to move toward the direction of using A Rulebook for Argument and try to do whatever relevant logic that will get us ready for that.

 

I have A Rulebook for Argument (it's a nice, thin little book ), and it's a decent summary of what I've understood so far from using Critical Thinking last year and starting to understand this year in TL. Something else I've been noticing just as we live life and go about doing other things that are suggested in WTM, is that we are starting to automatically think through things anyway. For example, outlining from other info.. Or putting dates on a timeline - ds has to pick them out as *he* deems important, and has to tell me why he thinks his particular choices are important. He also has to tell me sometimes why he organized his outline in a certain way (that might not be how I would organize it). Or using the WTM questions for literature study/evaluation, or the questions for going through a science experiment. ALL of those processes that we are slowly integrating more into our schooling, are manifesting themselves in the rest of our life, not just "school" time. It ALL helps to think more clearly, which logic study is also designed to do. I would make a wild guess that, if you are incorporating other processes for thinking, that your above plan could work out pretty well.

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Thank you for this wonderful encouragement, Colleen!!!! :001_smile:

 

ETA: BTW, Colleen, do you recommend A Rulebook for Argument?

 

I have A Rulebook for Argument (it's a nice, thin little book ), and it's a decent summary of what I've understood so far from using Critical Thinking last year and starting to understand this year in TL. Something else I've been noticing just as we live life and go about doing other things that are suggested in WTM, is that we are starting to automatically think through things anyway. For example, outlining from other info.. Or putting dates on a timeline - ds has to pick them out as *he* deems important, and has to tell me why he thinks his particular choices are important. He also has to tell me sometimes why he organized his outline in a certain way (that might not be how I would organize it). Or using the WTM questions for literature study/evaluation, or the questions for going through a science experiment. ALL of those processes that we are slowly integrating more into our schooling, are manifesting themselves in the rest of our life, not just "school" time. It ALL helps to think more clearly, which logic study is also designed to do. I would make a wild guess that, if you are incorporating other processes for thinking, that your above plan could work out pretty well.
Edited by Sweet Home Alabama
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