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Ok...that is just a bit of a dramatic title but... I am reading "Snow Flower and the Secret Fan" right now and I just got through the section on her foot binding. It absolutely broke my heart. It kept saying over and over about how this would make her more attractive to men and make her more marriage material, etc. So this morning I read up on foot binding a little and there was so much about it that was sex-related or about how it made chinese women more alluring to men.

 

It's easy to write it off as something crazy those chinese people used to do but there is so much evidence in other cultures of "crazy" things that women do (or are forced to do) in the name of marriageability, or attracting men, etc. The girls in Africa who undergo genital mutilation so they can get a husband when they are older, even the victorian women who pulled their corsets so tight they couldn't breathe because men found their tiny waists attractive. I read a book about 10 years ago describing a haitian girl's upbringing and how her mother basically "probed" her genitals each night to make sure she was still a virgin as no man would have her if she wasn't.

 

It seems there are things in lots of different cultures and time periods that women have done so that men would find them attractive and marry them...crazy things...painful things...dangerous things...

 

It made me wonder...what do women do in this day and age that you think is crazy/dangerous/painful/demeaning, etc. to attract a man?

Edited by Heather in NC
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I never thought foot binding was to please men. I thought the moms pushed it for their girls for a better life and marriage.

 

"Bound feet were once considered intensely erotic in Chinese culture. Qing Dynasty sex manuals listed 48 different ways of playing with women's bound feet. Some men preferred never to see a woman's bound feet, so they were always concealed within tiny "lotus shoes" and wrappings. Feng Xun is recorded as stating, "If you remove the shoes and bindings, the aesthetic feeling will be destroyed forever" -- an indication that men understood that the symbolic erotic fantasy of bound feet did not correspond to its unpleasant physical reality, which was therefore to be kept hidden. For men, the primary erotic effect was a function of the lotus gait, the tiny steps and swaying walk of a woman whose feet had been bound. Women with such deformed feet avoided placing weight on the front of the foot and tended to walk predominantly on their heels. As a result, women who underwent foot-binding walked in a careful, cautious, and unsteady manner. The very fact that the bound foot was concealed from men's eyes was, in and of itself, sexually appealing. On the other hand, an uncovered foot would also give off a foul odor, as various saprobic microorganisms would colonize the unwashable folds."

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Ok...that is just a bit of a dramatic title but... I am reading "Snow Flower and the Secret Fan" right now and I just got through the section on her foot binding. It absolutely broke my heart. It kept saying over and over about how this would make her more attractive to men and make her more marriage material, etc. So this morning I read up on foot binding a little and there was so much about it that was sex-related or about how it made chinese women more alluring to men.

 

It's easy to write it off as something crazy those chinese people used to do but there is so much evidence in other cultures of "crazy" things that women do (or are forced to do) in the name of marriageability, or attracting men, etc. The girls in Africa who undergo genital mutilation so they can get a husband when they are older, even the victorian women who pulled their corsets so tight they couldn't breathe because men found their tiny waists attractive. I read a book about 10 years ago describing a haitian girl's upbringing and how her mother basically "probed" her genitals each night to make sure she was still a virgin as no man would have her if she wasn't.

 

It seems there are things in lots of different cultures and time periods that women have done so that men would find them attractive and marry them...crazy things...painful things...dangerous things...

 

It made me wonder...what do women do in this day and age that you think is crazy/dangerous/painful/demeaning, etc. to attract a man?

 

 

Heather, I'm going to buy you a joke book. :tongue_smilie::D

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"Bound feet were once considered intensely erotic in Chinese culture. Qing Dynasty sex manuals listed 48 different ways of playing with women's bound feet. Some men preferred never to see a woman's bound feet, so they were always concealed within tiny "lotus shoes" and wrappings. Feng Xun is recorded as stating, "If you remove the shoes and bindings, the aesthetic feeling will be destroyed forever" -- an indication that men understood that the symbolic erotic fantasy of bound feet did not correspond to its unpleasant physical reality, which was therefore to be kept hidden. For men, the primary erotic effect was a function of the lotus gait, the tiny steps and swaying walk of a woman whose feet had been bound. Women with such deformed feet avoided placing weight on the front of the foot and tended to walk predominantly on their heels. As a result, women who underwent foot-binding walked in a careful, cautious, and unsteady manner. The very fact that the bound foot was concealed from men's eyes was, in and of itself, sexually appealing. On the other hand, an uncovered foot would also give off a foul odor, as various saprobic microorganisms would colonize the unwashable folds."

 

:ack2:

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Yea, we do it for men--but we do it for other women, too. And then it becomes a female competition.

 

Interesting....it does also mention about women being envious of how "small" another woman's feet were and how she hoped that her feet would be as small as this girls' feet or that girl's feet so she could be attractive to men.

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In some cultures, women still bleach their skin using dangerous chemicals, and in parts of Africa teen-age girls are forcefed (a practice called leblouh) up to 16,000 calories/day, often including the same growth hormones used to fatten chickens and cattle, so they will be more attractive to men — they are literally fattened up like livestock. :(

 

Jackie

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In some cultures, women still bleach their skin using dangerous chemicals, and in parts of Africa teen-age girls are forcefed (a practice called leblouh) up to 16,000 calories/day, often including the same growth hormones used to fatten chickens and cattle, so they will be more attractive to men — they are literally fattened up like livestock. :(

 

Jackie

 

They sell skin bleaching chemicals everywhere here and there are commercials about it on TV.

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I can think of a bunch, but sadly, my mind goes to a bad 80's song. . .

 

"The things we do for lo-o-ve. . .

The things we do for love!

 

Like walkin' in the rain and the snow, when there's

No where to go

And you feel like there's a part of you that's dyin'"

 

Yeah.

 

And you're welcome - now it's stuck in your head too! :tongue_smilie:

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And you're welcome - now it's stuck in your head too! :tongue_smilie:

 

Now that was just plain evil!!! :ack2:

 

If there weren't so many other people reading this, I'd start singing, "It's a Small World After All," just to spite you! :D

 

But that would be wrong. :tongue_smilie:

 

Cat

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Now that was just plain evil!!! :ack2:

 

If there weren't so many other people reading this, I'd start singing, "It's a Small World After All," just to spite you! :D

 

But that would be wrong. :tongue_smilie:

 

Cat

 

Misery loves company, especially when it's in the form of the continual music loop :D

 

(Sorry to hijack, Heather - it IS an interesting topic)

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The foot binding thing is obviously extreme... but in my world I hate it when women who don't wear makeup (which is absolutely fine) make judgments of women who do, saying that is only for men (not for me) and that you aren't ok with who you are (I am, thank you very much). etc etc. Now, I am not a person who can't go to the grocery store without makeup, which I think might be a problem. But I do like to wear makeup sometimes, and it does not mean I am a tool of a chauvenistic (sp?) society!!

 

Vent over.

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The foot binding thing is obviously extreme... but in my world I hate it when women who don't wear makeup (which is absolutely fine) make judgments of women who do, saying that is only for men (not for me) and that you aren't ok with who you are (I am, thank you very much). etc etc. Now, I am not a person who can't go to the grocery store without makeup, which I think might be a problem. But I do like to wear makeup sometimes, and it does not mean I am a tool of a chauvenistic (sp?) society!!

 

Vent over.

 

Makeup is an interesting one to me. I can see how it could be to enhance one's beauty in order to appear more attractive to a potential mate, but it can also be enhancing one's beauty in order to feel more beautiful. For me personally, I just love color. It's part fun and playing around and part artistic expression. It's really quite amazing what makeup can do and how it can change your appearance. I see that as differently than having breast augmentation or tons of plastic surgery, but that's just me. I know I wouldn't have plastic surgery myself, but maybe to another it can be about enhancement beauty the same way that wearing makeup would be for me.

 

IDK, it's an interesting thought. At what point does it cross the line from being for yourself and being for someone else. And who decides what is "beautiful" anyway?

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I have read all of Lisa See's books and this is my favorite. Beautiful and so sad. I just watched Chris Rocks movie about hair in the African American community and spent a long time talking with dd about the issues of self hatred in terms of hiding one's ethnicity and or race by straightening the hair. Great film btw here is a link

http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2009-10-22-good-hair-main_N.htm

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Now that was just plain evil!!! :ack2:

 

If there weren't so many other people reading this, I'd start singing, "It's a Small World After All," just to spite you! :D

 

But that would be wrong. :tongue_smilie:

 

Cat

 

I was just an innocent bystander! Now I'm going to be humming that $%$# all night!

 

BTW, I once got stuck on that ride for over an hour. It was awful.

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On the actual thread topic, I think modern women do lots of things to alter themselves to be more attractive, most of which have already been mentioned by pp. And while some women do these things for themselves, or to compete with other women, the standards are set (for the most part, I'm sure there are exceptions) by what makes a woman attractive to a man.

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We bind our breasts with synthetic fabric and metal (underwire bras), whether that is necessary for our size of breast or not.

I am much more comfortable without a bra but dislike men looking at my chest rather than my eyes, at my age.

 

Many women focus no pleasing their men in bed without really focusing on themselves enough to realise how much potential they have, so to speak.

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IDK, it's an interesting thought. At what point does it cross the line from being for yourself and being for someone else. And who decides what is "beautiful" anyway?

 

That's what I am wondering. So I started asking myself questions this morning as I was gettingg ready...

 

do I shave my legs and armpits because I want to?

do I style my hair, blowdry, curl, hairspray, etc for me?

do I wear make-up for me?

is my lingerie chosen for comfort/function or for sex appeal?

why did I pierce my ears?

why do I get my hair highlighted?

etc

etc

etc

 

 

It IS hard to determine how much of what we do is ACTUALLY because we want to and not because it is expected by society or husbands or others. So then I started asking...what would happen if I STOPPED doing XYZ?

 

very interesting...hmmmm....

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That's what I am wondering. So I started asking myself questions this morning as I was gettingg ready...

 

do I shave my legs and armpits because I want to?

do I style my hair, blowdry, curl, hairspray, etc for me?

do I wear make-up for me?

is my lingerie chosen for comfort/function or for sex appeal?

why did I pierce my ears?

why do I get my hair highlighted?

etc

etc

etc

 

 

It IS hard to determine how much of what we do is ACTUALLY because we want to and not because it is expected by society or husbands or others. So then I started asking...what would happen if I STOPPED doing XYZ?

 

very interesting...hmmmm....

 

If you stopped would you think you were less beautiful?? I think what interests me most about this topic is how we define what beauty is. In some places women don't shave and that is considered sexy. Or as previous posters mentioned about Africa. They have that tribe that has the long necks, ones with plates I mean, they think that is truly beautiful. So I wonder, how do we decide what is beautiful TO US outside of the conditioning of OUR CULTURE and who in the culture decides what that standard will be? It's interesting to think about. I think it's so ingrained even to a sub-conscious level that it would be hard to find that line if it exists at all. What if everything we think we are doing FOR OURSELVES has already been dictated to us by the culture because it has set the standard for beauty in the first place. :confused::confused:

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I've known women who have holes punched in their ear-lobes and then stick metal posts through them and hang dangly bits of beads and baubles off them. Weird.

 

Bill

 

:lol::lol::lol: Hey now Mr. Bill, don't go dissing my only true vice. lol Besides, I've known men to hang out at beaches in tiny bathing suits that are barely visible beneath a large protruding gut and they think they look pretty good. :tongue_smilie: I'm not saying that's you, I'm sure you're a trunks type of guy being that you are educated, but some other guys have some pretty weird standards themselves! :D:D

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I'm sure I'll catch flack for this, but my honest opinion is that while most women claim to bend over backwards to attract men, really they do it chiefly for social status among other women. I've heard much more censure on a woman who didn't conform to beauty standards of cosmetics, nice hair, weight and clothes from other women than I have from men. I've even gone out of my way to ask men over the years what they think of many of these things and their response has generally been, "It doesn't matter much to me." If anything, the trend seems to be that they want a "low maintenence" gal who isn't so made-up, which is quite the opposite of what Hollywood tries to tell us.

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I'm sure I'll catch flack for this, but my honest opinion is that while most women claim to bend over backwards to attract men, really they do it chiefly for social status among other women. I've heard much more censure on a woman who didn't conform to beauty standards of cosmetics, nice hair, weight and clothes from other women than I have from men. I've even gone out of my way to ask men over the years what they think of many of these things and their response has generally been, "It doesn't matter much to me." If anything, the trend seems to be that they want a "low maintenence" gal who isn't so made-up, which is quite the opposite of what Hollywood tries to tell us.

 

I agree with this. While I was doing dishes I was thinking about this thread and who it is who decides what is beautiful and what is not and I think it is women who decide. I think when a girls is young it is typically her mother/grandmother/aunt etc who will define what beauty is in their culture by starting to impose on the girl her need to conform to it. I think that is how it is defined and that coupled with observations of who the popular girls are in school, who in the media is touted as most beautiful etc. is how we come up with our own internal definition of how we are supposed act, look and be. Just my own observations and I could be way off, but it just seems that way to me. :)

Edited by Ibbygirl
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"Heather's homework again"??? What an odd tag for this thread. I guess this person didn't read my first post where I said this is about a fictional novel I am reading right now.

 

Of course I DO have plenty of homework to do if you are inclined to help. :tongue_smilie:

 

Now back to the topic at hand...

 

because beauty IS culturally determined and is NOT set in stone it makes me wonder HOW? How does something like foot binding for instance become "beautiful"? Because for a long time it wasn't. Then for a long time it was. And now it isn't again. The same goes for other "beauty trends".

 

And if the definition is so fickle then why do we fall prey to it? For instance, why do I wear heels? I would say it's because I like them. They make me feel pretty. But do I REALLY like them? Why would I want to walk around on the balls of my feet all day with my toes jammed into some pointy contraption? They are not good for your feet or your back. And yet I continue to wear them. Why?

 

What if women everywhere just stopped altering any part of their body? No more make-up or heels or dying our hair or shaving or waxing or cosmetic surgery, etc. Would we all then be "ugly"?

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What if women everywhere just stopped altering any part of their body? No more make-up or heels or dying our hair or shaving or waxing or cosmetic surgery, etc. Would we all then be "ugly"?

 

No, then we'd all be natural beauties. :D I could go natural, but I'd still want to wear my earrings though. I like them. They're puuuuurty. :)

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I've known women who have holes punched in their ear-lobes and then stick metal posts through them and hang dangly bits of beads and baubles off them. Weird.

 

Bill

I don't think one can understand a woman's love affair with earrings unless one is the woman who is having the life long affair. :D

 

Yes, that would be me.

I'm sure I'll catch flack for this, but my honest opinion is that while most women claim to bend over backwards to attract men, really they do it chiefly for social status among other women. I've heard much more censure on a woman who didn't conform to beauty standards of cosmetics, nice hair, weight and clothes from other women than I have from men. I've even gone out of my way to ask men over the years what they think of many of these things and their response has generally been, "It doesn't matter much to me." If anything, the trend seems to be that they want a "low maintenence" gal who isn't so made-up, which is quite the opposite of what Hollywood tries to tell us.

I can tell you for me, it isn't about the men. At my age and state in life, I'm done with the trying to have men notice me.

 

But I still do the hair and make up fairly regularly. Women can be so witchy to other women. Not enough make up, too much make up. I'll admit, "Oh, my. How unfortunate," has run through my mind a time or two.

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I'm sure I'll catch flack for this, but my honest opinion is that while most women claim to bend over backwards to attract men, really they do it chiefly for social status among other women. I've heard much more censure on a woman who didn't conform to beauty standards of cosmetics, nice hair, weight and clothes from other women than I have from men. I've even gone out of my way to ask men over the years what they think of many of these things and their response has generally been, "It doesn't matter much to me." If anything, the trend seems to be that they want a "low maintenence" gal who isn't so made-up, which is quite the opposite of what Hollywood tries to tell us.

 

:iagree:

 

I think it's really women who put the most pressure on other women. My husband much prefers me without makeup, but I still find myself putting it on once a month or so. If I'm meeting a new group of women, I almost always put some on.

 

I will say that I feel quite lucky to have found a group of friends who tend not to prescribe to traditional beauty standards. I can show up to the park for play day in shorts with legs that haven't been shaved in weeks, and I know I won't be the only one, and no one will think a thing of it.

 

I'll keep my earrings. ;)

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Besides, I've known men to hang out at beaches in tiny bathing suits that are barely visible beneath a large protruding gut and they think they look pretty good. :tongue_smilie:

 

I know what you mean. No one needs to see that.

 

I remember I once saw a man at the beach and I swore he was completely n*de... but he wasn't... there was a Speedo under all that fat. :ack2:

 

Cat

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I know what you mean. No one needs to see that.

 

I remember I once saw a man at the beach and I swore he was completely n*de... but he wasn't... there was a Speedo under all that fat. :ack2:

 

Cat

 

lol Ay, I live less than 2 miles from the beach. I think I've seen it all. The speedo guys also seem to be the most hairy guys on the face of the earth too. I wonder if there is a connection. ;)

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There is no earthly reason to have one's breasts made the size of one's head except to attract men, imo.

 

I knew a woman who did just that -- huge implants that were entirely disproportionate to her frame -- and she spent an inordinate amount of time "adjusting" them afterward. The woman couldn't walk past a mirror without pushing them up and in, or fixing her bra. It was quite disconcerting.

 

And I was constantly worried that she might fall forward and never be able to get back up again. ;)

 

She also pulled up her top and showed them to anyone who might be even remotely interested. :glare: I don't normally have a problem with thinking of something to say, but when someone shows me their new implants, I have to admit that I tend to pause for a few awkward seconds before I come up with a reply.

 

Cat

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lol Ay, I live less than 2 miles from the beach. I think I've seen it all. The speedo guys also seem to be the most hairy guys on the face of the earth too. I wonder if there is a connection. ;)

 

You know, you're right about the hairy thing. The guy I mentioned was like a gorilla. Hair everywhere you could see. Except on his head.

 

Cat

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I'm beyond the age of wanting to look good for men. I do it for myself. I do makeup and earrings when I want to look good; church, date with DH, or other 'events'. I feel better when I'm made up. It's part of the general 'clean up' for me.

 

And I agree, earrings, for some, are like shoes for Imelda Marcos. Since I have bad feet, I collect earrings.

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There is no earthly reason to have one's breasts made the size of one's head except to attract men, imo. Other "improvements" can be for purely personal gratification.

I disagree- I was constantly hounded by my female friends and family members for being 'flat' when I was in jr. high and high school, and even got a few comments from adult friends later. I think it's about feeling superior in our own minds-

"I have larger breasts which everyone finds attractive (NOT true, BTW) and you have teeny breasts which aren't as attractive that means that I have 'better' breasts than you and that makes me 'better' than you, and I'm going to point that out as often as I can just to make sure you know your 'place' and everyone else can see me prove how much 'better' I am."

 

You could substitute anything for breasts. "I own a Prius/Hummer/BMW/Mercedes/etc. so clearly I have the BEST vehicle" vs. "I ride a bike/I only own used vehicles/I use public transportation/etc." People are constantly sizing up their neighbors/friends/etc. to see where they 'fit' in society. If everyone could just choose what they think is the best choice and not worry about what other people think of their choices then the world would be a better place IMO.

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Smearing chemicals all over our faces. I'll cop to this one.

 

Using chemicals to discolor our hair. Don't do that. I've had stylists tell me people pay them to color their hair my hair color.

 

Using all kinds of weird styling products in our hair - perms, straighteners, up-do's, etc. Nope. My hair has a natural wave/body to it.

 

Injecting poison in our faces (Botox) and lips. Nope. Gross.

 

Cutting and tucking every inch of our bodies. Nope. Elective surgery? No way.

 

Plucking hair out of sensitive areas. Uh, no. And no.

 

Waxing sensitive areas. see above.

 

High heels. I have enough trouble staying upright in flats.

 

Spanx. No thanks.

 

Push-up bras. No, the girls don't like to be pushed around.

 

Thong underwear. (Admit it, granny underwear IS more comfy, just no one wants to wear them!) The only floss I like is what goes between my teeth.

 

Etc. I'm sure there's more.

 

Clearly, I will never land a man. LOL

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Well, I quit shaving my legs in college a certain number of years ago (ok, 15) because I was going through my radical femininst stage and I was determined not to be owned by an american western beauty myth which says that women have to look a certain way to be desired or accepted. I also quit wearing makeup, cut my hair short, and wore only jeans in an effort to not look feminine. Sort of gender neutral i guess I was aiming for. It also helped that this was during the grunge stage of fashion:D You know, seattle garage bands...

 

Anyway, now I am a respectable middle thirties mom of 5. No longer a radical feminist. I wear whatever I want to now, dresses or jeans or whatever. I let my hair grow or cut it depending on my mood. I even curl it sometimes :)

I haven't gone back to make up, mainly because it's such a bother.

 

But I will NEVER go back to shaving. It is bondage pure and simple. I am sorry and I know many will completely disagree, but there is absolutely NO reason to waste huge amounts of my time and money and endure a deal of discomfort just to present societally acceptable legs and underarms.

 

However, I can say that the pressure that comes to bear against my internal conviction over this is insanely intense. In the winter it's not as bad. More people are covered up and I feel "normal". But I go through the same feelings every summer of seeing how everyone else looks and feeling so odd and having to go over my decision and retell myself that I do not need to SHAVE MY LEGS to FEEL VALUED! I'm yelling, because I cannot believe that this is still an issue and it underscores for me how ridiculous but real the beauty myth is and what a hold it has over us, even when we are consciously fighting it.

And I live in a fairly low key, granola type, pacific nw area. I mean it's not like I'm in LA or something...

Well that's my 2 cents I guess.

 

Jen

And don't even get me started on heels....

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I disagree- I was constantly hounded by my female friends and family members for being 'flat' when I was in jr. high and high school, and even got a few comments from adult friends later. I think it's about feeling superior in our own minds-

"I have larger breasts which everyone finds attractive (NOT true, BTW) and you have teeny breasts which aren't as attractive that means that I have 'better' breasts than you and that makes me 'better' than you, and I'm going to point that out as often as I can just to make sure you know your 'place' and everyone else can see me prove how much 'better' I am."

 

 

 

Wow, that's just sad. I guess you can console yourself with the fact that all those huge-chested teens are now saggy-chested middle-agers. :D

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