S/O: Math "people" weigh in on Saxon

[CarrieF]

I started another thread asking why some homeschoolers do multiple math programs (got great responses, thank you, everyone!), but it brought up another question that has been lurking below the surface of this non-math brain: what is the deal with Saxon?! In my experience, people either LOVE it or HATE it. I have yet to meet an elementary mom who LOVES it, but then once the DC get to middle/high school Saxon becomes golden. Not looking for the whole "history of Saxon" but more wondering why it has stuck around and is thought of as so "tried and true" when there seems to be such disparity from elem. level to upper level. Does that make sense?! I am nervous about making a solid choice for my dc because I am NOT a math person, so I need HELP! :001_smile: I am a teacher by training and can DO math, so I'm not worried about the instruction so much as is it a strong/solid program and is it tolerable?! (It certainly does not need to be FUN, but should at least be tolerable. ;))

[boscopup]

I've only experienced the K-1 levels via private school. They are so incremental that they were incredibly boring for my mathy son. After school, I gave him"mama math" (Math Mammoth), and he would ask to do that first instead of the Saxon. He gets math concepts quickly and doesn't need the itty bitty steps repeated everyday.

 

An example... On the homework sheets, 3 months into the grade 1 year,a sheet full of addition/subtraction facts would come home. At the same time, the regular homework sheet would have them tracing a number and coloring some number of blocks red. If the child hasn't mastered those things, I'm not sure how one can expect them to do the facts drill page. I can understand a spiral program, but this incremental business just doesn't do it for me.

 

I have heard that the upper levels are not as bad, but since we have a program that is consistent from grades 1-6, I'll just stick with what we're doing. My son does well with a mastery approach with plenty of review built in.

[Ann.without.an.e]

Having used and loved Singapore in the younger grades, I can tell you why most moms love Saxon in the upper grades - a thorough, step by step solutions manual :tongue_smilie: You can buy an answer key for Singapore, but Saxon breaks down, step by step, how they got to that answer. When you start looking at upper level problems, this is huge. I remember sitting forever with Singapore and a simple answer and working and reworking a problem to find how they got it. It is great for the brain if you have time to spare, but I don't.

[Ann.without.an.e]

I want to add...I think with my youngest, I will use Singapore until he is ready for Saxon 5/4. Saxon is very different from 5/4 + than for Saxon 3 and lower. I really like Saxon for the upper, but not so in love with it for 3 (I am using 3, 5/4, and 8/7 this year).

[hsmom]

I have not used the lower grades, but I know my oldest LOVED saxon math. We tried all kinds of programs and that simple black and white book was his favorite. He was even mad when I sold it when he went back to ps.

 

Now for me as stated above the big plus with it is it does teach you step by step. It shows how. Which is a big one for us. I don't like just knowing the answer I like knowing why it is the answer and Saxon really helps with that.

[brasilmom]

I started with Saxon 1 this year and both my dd and me are done with it. It is completely boring for elementary children. There are no textbook for the child to follow, so the only thing the child does is worksheet. My dd, particularly, despises busy work, so you can imagine that Saxon is not a fit for her. The plan was to switch programs for next school year, but at this point I am considering changing it now and have my dd start enjoying math again.

 

In my opinion, it is not a bad program, but for us it did not work at this point. Maybe later on it will be a better fit.

[Matryoshka]

Having used and loved Singapore in the younger grades, I can tell you why most moms love Saxon in the upper grades - a thorough, step by step solutions manual :tongue_smilie: You can buy an answer key for Singapore, but Saxon breaks down, step by step, how they got to that answer.

 

 

Au contraire. This may have been true in the past, but Singapore's grade 7-10 curriculum now have full solutions guides. They are very helpful.

 

We're going to switch from Singapore to a more traditional US sequence next year, but not because of lack of comprehensive solutions guides. And I wouldn't touch Saxon with a 10-foot pole (you can tell which side of the fence I fell on ;)). It's just the kind of book that would've driven me nutty as a student, so it's just not my style. Different approaches work for different people. :)

[Mallorie]

I started with Saxon 1 this year and both my dd and me are done with it. It is completely boring for elementary children. There are no textbook for the child to follow, so the only thing the child does is worksheet. My dd, particularly, despises busy work, so you can imagine that Saxon is not a fit for her. The plan was to switch programs for next school year, but at this point I am considering changing it now and have my dd start enjoying math again.

 

In my opinion, it is not a bad program, but for us it did not work at this point. Maybe later on it will be a better fit.

 

:iagree::iagree: My dd is SO sick of the same worksheets everyday. So am I.

 

ETA: On the other hand, my ds is doing Algebra 1/2 just fine and enjoying it.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Mallorie

[melmichigan]

My understanding is that Saxon K-3 are a different author, Larson. While the middle and upper levels are Saxon and Hake. I haven't used the lower levels, I mix SM and CLE so far with the youngers. I just tested my older DD for Saxon and will seriously considering using it with my youngers next year, that or continue with CLE for just a little while longer and then make the change before the geometry begins. I am sure I will continue with mastery based materials to be sure they "get" the big picture, and with Saxon only being 120-130 lessons per book it shouldn't be to much of a problem. I regret being convinced that mastery was the only "right" answer, even with all the math fact drill, so much so that I wouldn't even consider Saxon before. I am considering it now. :)

Edited January 13, 2011 by melmichigan

[Chris in VA]

Well, here's one elementary mom who's kid loved Saxon, didn't mind the worksheets or find them boring, and wishes she was still in it instead of having to skip to 6th grade math at public school b/c she completely tested out of the 5th grade curriculum they use.

[Crimson Wife]

I think most homeschoolers whether or not they personally find Saxon a good "fit" for their kids consider it to be a solid program. The extreme spiraling & huge amount of repetition is what makes it a "love it or hate it" curriculum. Some kids do very well with that approach while others (like my oldest) would absolutely get driven bonkers by it.

[CarrieF]

So am I getting this right: programs like Singapore do NOT spiral, they are mastery-minded, while programs like Saxon (an ABeka) are spiral and more "repetetive" where you keep coming back to things all throughout?

[regentrude]

So am I getting this right: programs like Singapore do NOT spiral, they are mastery-minded, while programs like Saxon (an ABeka) are spiral and more "repetetive" where you keep coming back to things all throughout?

 

Yes, but Saxon is not only spiral, it is incremental. So instead of teaching you fully about one topic, it gives you a tiny bit, moves on to something unrelated, and gives you the next bit when the topic is revisited days or weeks later.

This works well for some children and is complete disaster for others (mine for instance).

[Crimson Wife]

So am I getting this right: programs like Singapore do NOT spiral, they are mastery-minded, while programs like Saxon (an ABeka) are spiral and more "repetetive" where you keep coming back to things all throughout?

 

There are mastery programs that stick to a single topic for the entire book (Math-U-See, Key to ..., Math Mammoth "blue", etc.) and then the student never sees it again. There are "soft spiral" programs that teach one topic at a time but review & add on from year-to-year (Singapore, Right Start, MM "light blue", etc.) There are spiral programs that review within each book (Horizons, CLE, Abeka, etc.) Then there is Saxon, which is extreme spiral.

 

Clear as mud, huh? ;)

[LizzyBee]

I used Saxon 5/4 for a year with my middle child. Sometimes the lesson was not mathematically correct. I'd have to tell her to ignore what the book said and then re-teach the lesson myself. There is also not enough practice of new concepts. Of 30 questions, sometimes only 3 were related to the new concept and 27 were review.

 

When I first started looking into homeschooling, Saxon was still billing itself as a new, innovative approach to math. Maybe that's why I have a hard time thinking of it as tried and true.

[CarrieF]

There are mastery programs that stick to a single topic for the entire book (Math-U-See, Key to ..., Math Mammoth "blue", etc.) and then the student never sees it again. There are "soft spiral" programs that teach one topic at a time but review & add on from year-to-year (Singapore, Right Start, MM "light blue", etc.) There are spiral programs that review within each book (Horizons, CLE, Abeka, etc.) Then there is Saxon, which is extreme spiral.

 

Clear as mud, huh? ;)

No, that DID clear it up for me; thank you! :001_smile:

[lauracolumbus]

AS I mentioned in a previous post, my kids would be happy campers if I dumped Saxon, but b/c they test so well in math b/c (and b/c it's not my strong suit) I'm afraid to make the switch. My oldest esp. struggles w/the amt of time it takes to complete a lesson. I try to tell myself that not only is he learning math, but he's learning diligence and working through tedious (to him) lessons. Every year I think I'm going to switch, but I keep coming back to Saxon.

 

Laura

[wapiti]

You might also get a better feel for the differences by looking at the table of contents for Saxon and a couple other programs, as well as by looking at the instruction for a particular topic, especially if you can get a hold of a sample of the same topic in more than one curriculum.

 

(Personally, the Saxon 6/5 TOC made me dizzy; it's definitely not a fit for us. As for review in Light Blue MM, in addition to the review following each chapter, I discovered something "new" today LOL - in the supportive materials folder, there are short cumulative reviews, one for each chapter, covering chapter 1 through chapter x for the grade level)

[jer2911mom]

Having used and loved Singapore in the younger grades, I can tell you why most moms love Saxon in the upper grades - a thorough, step by step solutions manual :tongue_smilie: You can buy an answer key for Singapore, but Saxon breaks down, step by step, how they got to that answer. When you start looking at upper level problems, this is huge. I remember sitting forever with Singapore and a simple answer and working and reworking a problem to find how they got it. It is great for the brain if you have time to spare, but I don't.

 

So does Singapore provide step by step solutions manuals in 1st-6th grades, or just the answer keys? Thanks

[Ellie]

I don't like the primary levels, but Math 54 and up are the bomb. :)

 

Of course Saxon has been a contender lo, these many years because it's good.

[Matryoshka]

So does Singapore provide step by step solutions manuals in 1st-6th grades, or just the answer keys? Thanks

 

I haven't seen any, but maybe they're making them for Standards??

 

My older two have already finished up Primary US Ed. and my youngest is in 5b, and honestly I never needed more than an answer key for the Primary books, but there are probably people who would appreciate it.

[Moniksca]

My son definitely needs the incremental approach. Each day the mixed problems provide a variety of questions to be answered. I don't have him do the drill sheets of 30+ math questions, he would absolutely die. We started using Saxon 3 and this year transitioned to 5/4. We initially used MUS but the mastery approach was not for my ds. I like Saxon and hope to continue with it.

[prairiebird]

I'm newer to 5/4 and I'm finding the drill sheets to be a bit much too, but the incremental approach really helps my son. I used Singapore up until now and switched to Saxon because my husband insisted on it. He's a math teacher, so that's one of the subjects he won't bend on! Luckily, it's worked so far. My second child is about to start Singapore 2B, so I don't know how he'll handle it when he gets there.

[Hedgehog]

Another mom with elementary aged students here - and we love Saxon Math from K onwards. There is a jump from Saxon 3 to 5/4, but not an unmanageable one IMO. The incremental approach and constant repetition isn't irksome but rather reinforces the concepts in a way which suits my dc. Heck, even I'm understanding Math at long last!

[TracyR]

Honestly it just depends on how your child works best with math.

Saxon in the early grades worked great with my 2nd daughter. I used other programs such as BJU, Singapore, Calvert and she would just break out in tears they frustrated her so bad. I caved in and bought the Saxon for her and it made sense and all of a sudden math made sense to her.

 

I regret having used the other programs with her because I stopped using Saxon after 1. I should have continued with it. I was very happy that she knew her math facts much, much quicker than her oldest sister who was actually good at math and using a mastery program.

 

Fastforward to today and Saxon still works for her. They are attending a private school that uses Saxon and I have seen her math improve once again. She is using 5/4.

Saxon works great for my 3rd daughter as well. My 4th is using the K math in PreK and she seems to be doing okay with it.

 

Now my oldest on the other hand. Forget it. She was doing really well with math when I homeschooled. I used BJU math and Calvert and K12 and she did just fine with it. Loved math. Saxon totally throws her for a loop for some reason and I'm not sure why. She does better focusing on same sets at a time , rather than the randomness. She understands how to do it but I think its just to much randomness on one page I think. I don't know. Its strange. Not even her teacher is sure what to do for her. She knows she can do the math, as well as I, she's seen it first hand. She's just not sure what happens when she opens the math book in class. I even had my daughter bring home the book and she sat and did the math problems and did just fine. I didn't even have to sit and explain anything to her. So it wasn't because of lack of understanding.

 

So my longwinded point is that it just depends on the child. It really does. There isn't anything wrong with Saxon elementary. It does take some work on your part to sit with your child versus handing the book to an older child and having them read it and work independently. So maybe that's why most prefer it in the older grades ( that's what I think and I'm sticking to it).

[abbeyej]

I used the upper levels of Saxon when *I* was in later elementary and middle school. I *loathed* it. Even now, if I pick up one of the upper level books and read through the explanation, I get frustrated. It was such an extraordinary relief math-wise to go to a traditional high school (first a private prep-type school, then a public IB school) and use more traditional algebra, geometry, etc texts where they actually give you the whole picture and let you work with it.

 

I know my mother was completely sucked into the whole "Saxon is the best" rhetoric (and when I was in school, there weren't as many options, and no internet to help with research), and was afraid to veer away from it, thinking we'd be crippled using anything else. She's severely math-phobic herself...

 

Anyway, not *everyone* loves the upper levels of Saxon. (I did try using the elementary levels at one point when my oldest was small and was frustrated for different reasons -- I felt their coverage of base ten / place value was wholly inadequate.)