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HOw much emphasis do you put on Science and History..


kwickimom
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and why?

 

I have read different blogs and threads here about formal Science/History in the grammar stage. I know some people get to it every week and some put it in when they can.

 

I just wanted to see what YOU do...and how important you think History and Science is in the Grammar stage.

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Quite a bit but truthfully it's because I find them interesting.:lol: These are the subjects that seem to pop up in our life and conversations. We enjoy documentaries and books on these topics. Grammar and math are pretty boring IMHO but how can stories about interesting people and discovering how the world works be boring.

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We did little history in the first 2 grades, but began SOTW around gr 3. For science, it was generally trade books with a few experiments or homeschool science classes for the first few grades, depending on the dc. It's not that I don't think the subjects are important, but my eldest came home from ps at 8 and with her nearly everything was a battle, so I didn't have as much time as I woud liked with the others. When it came to ds, he was a late reader and I was busy with his sisters. However, I have found that it worked well for them, and I have become an advocate of a modified better late than early approach. Of course, I did pursue any science my dc were avidly interested in prior to that, so ds had quite a bit of exposure to physics and then flight from 4 on. Also, ds found history very boring until he was about 8, and that's when we started SOTW 1.

 

If I had a dc who was pushing to do school all the time, I would have incorporated more. My eldest was more delayed with her history at home due to all the arguing, but has done well with it after all (she's 15 now.)

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My dd is only in K, but I don't plan on changing my method for science anytime soon. We basically cover a science topic as they come up in FIAR. And we don't go into a lot of depth. We have also begun our nature studies with bug collecting and plant observation *lite*. On an occasion I will read to her from a nature reader.

 

For history, right now we are just touching on what is brought up in FIAR. Next year, when my dd's attention span is a bit longer and her motor skills are ready for some mapping, we will start SCM Gen. to Deut. So we will start Bible history. Sometime next year I will start back reading to her from an Am. history reader. But again this will all be *lite*.

 

I don't have any formal plans for either hx or sci till my dd reaches about 3rd or 4th grade. Of course I will expect more of her in 2nd grade than I do now though. When we get to FIAR vol 4 there is a step up for sure.

 

 

ETA

 

You asked why. I don't feel that children this young can really get much out of these subjects unless presented gently, and there needs to be more time for the 3Rs and play. I will consider our studies more formal when I require my dd to write about what she has read/observed.

Edited by Susie in MS
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I wouldn't call it emphasis. However, we do quite a bit of history, science, and literature. This is what makes the day interesting and often fun; especially in the grammar stage. We always did history twice a week and science twice a week. How much we did formally varied. Sometimes we did our narration pages or lab reports and such dutyfully. Other times we grew tired of doing it this way and concentrated on fun reading and projects. In the early years we did tons of projects, fieldtrips, etc. It was a lot of fun!

 

Susie

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This is exactly my plan and reasoning right now :) We dont do FIAR, but I was gonna do a little nature study, a few Science kits and books, and some History reads until about 4th grade for my boys, unless they show a major interest.

My dd is only in K, but I don't plan on changing my method for science anytime soon. We basically cover a science topic as they come up in FIAR. And we don't go into a lot of depth. We have also begun our nature studies with bug collecting and plant observation *lite*. On an occasion I will read to her from a nature reader.

 

For history, right now we are just touching on what is brought up in FIAR. Next year, when my dd's attention span is a bit longer and her motor skills are ready for some mapping, we will start SCM Gen. to Deut. So we will start Bible history. Sometime next year I will start back reading to her from an Am. history reader. But again this will all be *lite*.

 

I don't have any formal plans for either hx or sci till my dd reaches about 3rd or 4th grade. Of course I will expect more of her in 2nd grade than I do now though. When we get to FIAR vol 4 there is a step up for sure.

 

 

ETA

 

You asked why. I don't feel that children this young can really get much out of these subjects, and there needs to be more time for the 3Rs and play.

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I always tell my kids they are going to a math and science magnet school ;) We love math and science it is a huge part of our life and talk.

 

History- not so much. As is mentioned above, we won't start history until 3rd grade or so. We did start in k and 1st with the first two boys, and I really think SOTW works so well for 3rd- 6th grade, so that is my plan for the next.

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It's really important in our home. Although I received a solid education in math and language arts in school, science and history were lackluster (that's putting it gently...) and DH and I feel it is a huge priority for our kids. My school growing up used Abeka textbooks and I will never.ever.ever use that in our home because of the poor education we received from them.

 

I hate that I learned umpteen years of American History and a paltry amount of world history (aside from Ancient Greece/Ancient Rome/Ancient Egypt and some modern European as it related to the world wars and communism). Otherwise? Nada about other countries - I was told you didn't need to learn about Sub-Saharan Africa b/c they didn't create any civilizations. I didn't learn that was untrue until college! We didn't learn a thing about Asia until the end of high school. Same goes for South America (and there it was only as it related to American History and colonization).

 

That's just too many horrific knowledge gaps IMO and I want to make it different for my kids by making sure they have a solid foundation in both world history and american history which will require intentionality from the beginning of their schooling.

 

Because of this, science and history are two areas I've looked into quite a bit for the K-2 ages (where we're at).

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Emphasis? It definitely falls below math & language arts, but it also is higher in priority than formal music or art appreciation, or formal art or music skills. That said, we still make sure we do both weekly. This year, ds is in K, and we're doing history more formally than we are science, because dd & ds asked if he could start SOTW this year (as dd cycled back to ancients herself), but next year history & science will have equal weight. For us, it's about exposure. It also provides a framework for me. If we're doing SOTW, it gives me a framework to look for additional non-fiction & literature. The content gives us a lot of opportunities for narration and comprehension. The experience of doing experiments before having to write formal lab reports is valuable. Absolutely necessary? Of course not! But we still find it valuable. It also adds interest, especially for ds who needs interaction with his learning.

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From what I've gathered from reading other people's opinions and what rings true for me, is that science isn't incredibly important to study in depth until... high school? We'll probably start a semi-formal study of it in middle school. Until then, through the grammar stage, we're just going to stick to nature study.

History is really important to me. I want my kids to have a good grasp of history before they leave my home. However, our literature and comprehension practice do not revolve around history books (as in WTM).

To give my kids a good grasp of major events in history, we are reading CHOW in first grade, mapping the events on a timeline. Then we'll read it again in second grade, doing the same thing. I think this will give them some solid pegs from the very beginning on which to hang future history information. Third grade to eighth grade, I *think* I'll have them read the M.B. Synge books independently, as the spine, with plenty of supplemental books thrown in there along the way. (I'm sure I'll change my mind a million times before then... but that's the plan today)

My general idea being, history is important, but is not our literary focus. I am really impressed with the literature choices of ambleside online (we're not doing their history obviously) and would rather have a wide variety of literature than that soley revolving around history and science.

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for us, in K-2 anything beyond language arts and math is gravy so to speak (and honestly, math not even being of great concern until second grade). we do include all subjects of course... but not until 3rd grade do i really shift a strong emphasis to other subjects beyond the 3 R's. in K-2 they are learning to read, and in 3rd grade and up they are reading to learn, at which time history, geography, science, etc. begin to take precedence in our learning (as does writing).

 

ETA - to clarify, we do science & history/geography 2x weekly. however, i don't concern myself with retention at this point, rather it is exposure. in 3rd grade and up, i do focus on whether or not the information is being retained.

Edited by mytwomonkeys
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My dc learn science and history every week, but not in a very formal or time-intensive (for me) way when they are K-6. I don't take the time (or money) to do big history or science programs at that age, because the building blocks for an excellent high school education in science and history - solid math skills and reading and writing well - take time.

 

We spend K-6 building those skills on the one hand and building interest on the other hand: field trips, library books, videos, books, collections, etc. When those two sides merge in junior high and high school, I end up with dc who love to learn and have the solid skills necessary to tackle science and history at a very challenging level. So my 12 yo who never did formal science is taking Honors Biology at the high school level and acing it. And my 14 yo is working though the Great Books of the ancients in record time and writing meaningful essays about them, though she didn't spend years in the alphabet soup of expensive history programs. :) (I hope that encourages anyone who might want to try it!)

Edited by angela in ohio
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Emphasis? It definitely falls below math & language arts, but it also is higher in priority than formal music or art appreciation, or formal art or music skills.

:iagree: Since k we have done lang. arts and math daily, we never skip it. That being said, we also do science and history daily, but skip them if we get short on time or have somewhere to go(they are our after lunch subjects - fun subjects :D). Our ds 8 has always loved and excelled at these subjects and gets upset when we don't do them.

 

Lisa

 

married 25 years to one awesome man ;)

dd 20 engaged - college sr. gearing up for grad. school.

ds 8 hockey player - R&S reading with reading detective, R&S English, R&S Arithmetic with math mammoth, Sequential spelling with spell city, Abeka health, Abeka science with Considering God's Creation, Abeka Hist. and SOTW 1, Building Thinking Skills, Mind benders, Logic Safari,The Complete Book of Maps and Geography, R&S Music, Discovering Great Artist

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I hate that I learned umpteen years of American History and a paltry amount of world history (aside from Ancient Greece/Ancient Rome/Ancient Egypt and some modern European as it related to the world wars and communism). Otherwise? Nada about other countries - I was told you didn't need to learn about Sub-Saharan Africa b/c they didn't create any civilizations. I didn't learn that was untrue until college! We didn't learn a thing about Asia until the end of high school. Same goes for South America (and there it was only as it related to American History and colonization).

).

 

That is horrible! I feel that there is sooo much history....so much wonderful culture to be learned. I place history very high on the priority list in this house. With FIAR even we have covered Africa, Japan, China and more ....lightly. I would never want to skip all of that and we will cover it in detail when my my lo is older. With my oldest 3 kiddos our unit studies all focused on history. It was wonderful! We have learned so much. And as soon as lil bit is old enough we will start covering the history of the Jews via the Bible along with Oxford hx book. But it will be a gentle approach.

 

One poster mentioned content learning. I am very much for this. A lot of our reading was done via history studies. I don't put a lot of stock in literature programs, although we have used them on occasion. One lady on another board that I frequent basically has her kiddos read and then write about what they read. This is sooo very wise! You have combined so many subjects with this simple approach. And the reinforcement of the content can't be beat. I do plan on using her method when my dd is older.

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We do history and science every week here. We just moved to a 2 day/week history and 2 day/week science schedule. Before we were doing both (for shorter periods) 4 days a week.

 

We are more history heavy than science, mostly because I love history. My eldest also loves history. Most of our literature I also keep history based. My kids love the stories and have read a lot of things they wouldn't have just picked off the shelf. I'm also finding lots of great books! There are so many wonderful picture books that we would have missed had I not centered our lit. on history!

 

I have always loved stories and that's what history is... the human story. We are also Christians and I love watching God's plan unfold over the course of human existence. I think we can learn a lot from people of the past. I feel it's important for our children to know where we came from and where we're going. The survival of family, communities and nations comes from knowing where you've been... keeping the good things and trying not to repeat the mistakes.... you need to know history to know what these things were. I guess that's why I think it's important enough to focus on in elementary. Gaining that base that can be expounded upon later.

 

Of course, I would say the 3R's are more important in the early years... but we've never not done history/science because of this.

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My school growing up used Abeka textbooks and I will never.ever.ever use that in our home because of the poor education we received from them.

 

I hate that I learned umpteen years of American History and a paltry amount of world history (aside from Ancient Greece/Ancient Rome/Ancient Egypt and some modern European as it related to the world wars and communism). Otherwise? Nada about other countries - I was told you didn't need to learn about Sub-Saharan Africa b/c they didn't create any civilizations. I didn't learn that was untrue until college! We didn't learn a thing about Asia until the end of high school. Same goes for South America (and there it was only as it related to American History and colonization).

 

 

Even before we started homeschooling, I would go to the book fairs and made a wide circle around the Abeka tables for this very reason. When we considered private schools, I would never look at a school that used Abeka materials for more than one class/grade. If it was in the school's ad that they used Abeka, I never even bothered to look at their website. Not that I am bitter about the quality of my education or anything...

 

But Abeka-bashing aside, I echo those above who focus heavily on science. My high schooler does two sciences most semesters; my 1st and 5th graders are doing 2 Apologia books this year. Science is what makes school fun for the younger kids, so we make it a point to do it at least 4 days a week. We also do history 4 or 5 days a week, but science is more important to us at this point.

 

Terri

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From what I've gathered from reading other people's opinions and what rings true for me, is that science isn't incredibly important to study in depth until... high school? .

 

Unless, of course, you have a dc who is very much science oriented. When I mentioned that we don't do formal science early, ds and I went into a surprising amount of depth in his areas of interest (physics, and then more specifically flight and airplanes.)

 

One point to consider is that even if you delay starting history until ages 8-10, it doesn't mean that you have to end up with big gaps in your history coverage. The plan for all of our dc who stay home through high school is to do the first 3 books of SOTW, two years of American history and then history from Ancient to Modern. However,we'll also do some US history in high school as well. We do touch on Canadian history around grade 4, as well.

 

There is a lot to history to cover, and you'll end up with gaps no matter what because there are only so many years of school. Seriously--you wont find anything out there that covers it all.

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History is the engine that drives our studies. We do it almost every day. It is the basis for our History, Geography, Literature, Writing, Science and sometimes Economics.

 

Children denied grammar and/or logic stages have no grasp of the facts or the cause and effect, so their rhetoric stage attempts at application and persuasion can only be faulty and shallow based on nothing more than their impressions of scant information and their imaginations. Rhetoric (application and persuasion) is dependent on Logic (cause and effect) and Logic is dependent on Grammar (facts.) Human beings learn from the bottom up in most things. Trivium is very bottom up.

 

History is also the body of evidence humanity looks at for which ideas are good and which are bad because all ideas that are implemented to any degree have consequences. Read the Federalist Papers or Toquville and you will see how an understanding of History is critical to understanding the world and how it works and where to go from here.

 

I think Science should be taught from the top down. It's the only exception I would take with the Trivium approach to education. I think a child FIRST needs a very solid grasp of scientific thought (objective observation seeking empirical evidence) and THEN the child can learn the particulars. A kid can do all kinds of experiments and come to all sorts of conclusions by following directions to experiments someone else designed and looking for specific known results, but that doesn't mean the child has learned to think scientifically.

 

In the Grammar and some of the Logic stages we studied Science historically with biographies and how what was going on at the time influenced and affected the scientist. We also studied how the scientist's discoveries affected the world. Once the children were better able to understand abstractions, we focused on scientific thought and how those particular experiments and observations were born out of the scientific method and how empirical evidence supports or contradicts conclusions.

 

My husband teacher Science at my house. He begins with Richard Feynmann's "What is Science?" and goes from there.

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In our house, history is the big one. Science, less so; we do some nature study and a bit of science-y stuff but it's not a huge emphasis. History, otoh, is huge around here. DH and I are history sorts of people, and our daughter is particularly interested in history. So we frame our plans around history, actually. I have always thought that they will pick up basic reading, writing, and math skills as their brains are ready for them, and that has been true; I don't push any of that, until they are showing interest, and then I might do a bit more formal work in those areas. (I did not teach my 8yo to read; we read to her tons, and she really started reading on her own fluently before she was 4. My 5yo showed that he was ready to read but was frustrated that he couldn't do it yet, so we have started doing some phonics instruction, with great results. But he really was not ready a year ago.) But we tend to gear literature selections around history interests, for instance, and we pretty much live history at our house.

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We do history read alouds every day of our four week schooling schedule. My boys take a science class at homeschool co op, and we do the homework once a week, which takes about an hour to an hour and a half a week at home plus the hour at co op.

 

Regarding time spent on subjects, language arts probably gets the most time per day (including grammar, writing, spelling, reading), followed closely by math. Science and history do get a spot in the schedule, as it feels very important to me to expose the kids to these, even at a young age. My kids and I both enjoy these studies. Also, I know that it is best to strike when the iron is hot, so to speak, thus taking advantage of this period in our homeschooling experience when the kids are interested in hearing about and soaking up these subjects. This seems important in order to give them the chance to experience for themselves what whets their appetites and what is truly interesting to them. This is the beginning of a lifetime of learning, and I don't know which seeds that are planted today will grow into something much bigger later. I think of this time period with my kids as broad exposure to many things, not just academic but also sports and music/arts. That sums up my philosophy towards it.:001_smile:

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Children denied grammar and/or logic stages have no grasp of the facts or the cause and effect, so their rhetoric stage attempts at application and persuasion can only be faulty and shallow based on nothing more than their impressions of scant information and their imaginations. Rhetoric (application and persuasion) is dependent on Logic (cause and effect) and Logic is dependent on Grammar (facts.) Human beings learn from the bottom up in most things. Trivium is very bottom up.

 

It doesn't have to happen formally, though, or over many years. No matter when you start your studies of a subject (even as adults,) you start with grammar stage learning. So just because we didn't learn something completely in 1st-4th grade, it doesn't mean we'll never be able to learn it.

 

I'm nost saying there's anything wrong with focusing on history in the elementary years, I just want to point out that doing otherwise doesn't have to lead to "faulty and shallow" learning later.

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We get to each of them twice a week, but that's just because I love them so much! (Besides - we still have the time in the afternoon when dd4 has a slightly longer rest time than dd7.) We don't spend 3 hours on each, but I can't resist making sure we do them. We've slowed SOTW 1 and 2 down to do them over 3 years, partially to make sure we could go through them thoroughly.

 

When dd4 hits first grade - or even K - things may change dramatically. But until then, we are blissful. :)

 

Mama Anna

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Quite a bit but truthfully it's because I find them interesting.:lol: These are the subjects that seem to pop up in our life and conversations. We enjoy documentaries and books on these topics. Grammar and math are pretty boring IMHO but how can stories about interesting people and discovering how the world works be boring.

 

You can drag grammar into anything with words, and math can be pulled in, too. We do history for the fun of it. We do about 6 hours a month x 12 months. SOTW, bios, technology in history, wandering through DK books of photos of old things, anything. We are slowly moving chronologically. Now that we have jumped to WWE 3 and it is a tough jump, I'm doing more reading and summarizing of SOTW 3.

 

We love science, and I think it even more important in this age. We do do some memorization in science. And lots of hands on. We do about 9 hours a month x12.

 

These subjects are the icing on our cake, and kiddo often calls out More More when I am hoarse with reading about this king or that king.

 

They make the world of learning exciting. I tell him he works on his vocab so he can understand these books better. That makes sense to him. He loves to learn a new word when it is in a book he finds exciting.

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My kids are in 2nd grade and preK. We don't do formal science or history. My older daughter occassionally browses through science or history books on her own, and we go to once a month science classes, but that's it.

 

We spend our time on English and Math, because I like *them* far more than science or history. Quite frankly, I don't remember any science or history from my own elementry days, so I'm not worried. However, my kids are young, and in a few years I might change my tune and have to remediate.

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Um ... history has totally taken a back seat here. I just felt that my ds didn't have enough context to really understand what we were reading, wasn't retaining much at all, and our time could be better spent elsewhere. So we have done more social studies type stuff (using Oak Meadow) and I'm very happy with this level. We do talk about cultures & some geography as it relates to our readings or things we see on TV. Next year (5th grade) we will do US History and I'm excited!

 

Now science we would love to do every day. We are doing Singapore 3/4 at double speed to finish in one year. Science is much more relevant to his life right now - it explains the world he lives in. I'm kinda tempted to stick the Preschooler in front of a movie with headphones on so we can do science every morning :tongue_smilie:.

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This year, history has been mostly non-existant. Some science, but only because his piano teacher wanted to hs him for that! (she formally hs'd her own kids, with her last one graduating last year and doesn't feel done yet!).

 

Next year my dd will be in K, and ds will be in grade 2, and I plan to start doing history regularly. I just couldn't hack it this year with the stage that my toddler is at. Hoping to do better next year!

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I use history and science to give my dc something interesting to read and write about. My grammar stage students (but NOT my 1st grader) do science 4 days per week and history 5 days per week but there are no tests and no memorizing. We read; we write. That is what is non-negotiable to me.

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We do a lot of science and just a very little of history. She's only in first grade right now, though, so I don't know what we'll do long term. If she becomes more interested in history, we'll do more of it. We will always do a lot of science because I think it's incredibly important. Not that I think history isn't, of course, it's just that I think science is more important. (Here come the tomatoes...lol)

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Currently we do history everyday by listening to audiobooks, such as SOTW and MOH, and later we will be listening to FMoR and FMoG. The stories captivate DD, but I've temporarily dropped narration/copywork in history since we usually end up listening to a few chapters in one sitting. It's that absorbing!

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It doesn't have to happen formally, though, or over many years. No matter when you start your studies of a subject (even as adults,) you start with grammar stage learning. So just because we didn't learn something completely in 1st-4th grade, it doesn't mean we'll never be able to learn it.

 

I'm nost saying there's anything wrong with focusing on history in the elementary years, I just want to point out that doing otherwise doesn't have to lead to "faulty and shallow" learning later.

:iagree: We can learn facts at an age. Of course, my dc were exposed to many things, including history, before we began to study it formally. We did start in elementary, just not before age 8. Also, there is nothing in the modern trivium that talks about doing your country's history 3 times (at least, not in anything I've read), just world history, and yet our dc can still develop an in depth understanding than that.

 

It is also easy to have faulty and shallow reasoning and understanding even studying something at all 3 stages of the trivium, because it requries more than repeated exposure to develop understanding, thinking skills, etc.

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We're VERY science-heavy over here. I'm reasonably sure my son would mutiny if I ever tried to drop/skip science. He's been interested in science since he was 1 1/2 and dragged live grasshoppers and crickets and frogs (and once a spider) into my house and tried to haul them around in his little pushcars. He has a very science-oriented brain, lots of potential, and I want to encourage that as much as possible. We do science almost daily, and a lot of the readers that we owned when he was in K and 1 were nonfiction science books.

 

I put a little bit less emphasis on history, but we still try to hit it weekly because he enjoys it. He actually enjoys the geography and map-coloring more than the history itself, but the few times he's come out with a fact (he's loves to memorize facts and stories) and amazed my DH have made it all worth it for him. A lot our school reading is history-related.

 

That being said, LA and math definitely take the forefront. I insist on those daily, whether he wants to do them or not. If he can't do the math or write up the report, I tell him, how does he expect to become a published scientist? :lol: I need to show him the bumblebee experiment published in 'Biology Letters' to prove my point...

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