"Is Law School a Losing Game?" (NYT)

[jld]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?src=ISMR_HP_LO_MST_FB

 

Any thoughts on this?

[Ravin]

I've been procrastinating on finishing my law school applications...

 

this does not motivate me.

[kewb]

I think if you are getting a law degree with the belief that it will make you pots of money, then yes, it is a losing game.

[Jane in NC]

Very interesting...

 

My 30 something niece is a partner is a small legal firm. She attended law school after the dot-com bubble which was also a game changer. Prior to the that, law school students played a game of racking up the big loans, but many would earn big bucks in summer internships. So the debt was viewed as a necessary evil but a manageable one.

 

After my niece's first year of law school, few students were finding internships. My niece was hired by a non-profit. No big bucks for her but she had at least a bit of an income stream. (And for her it was not as tragic since she had won a scholarship which covered her tuition. This is rather unusual for law school---or perhaps was. Not sure how law school works these days. She chose a lower ranked law school because of the offer of free tuition.)

 

Turns out that the non-profit was a stepping stone into the firm into which she is now a partner. In fact, her firm paid her to study for the bar exam, another perk which is not as common as it used to be.

 

My home town had colleges but not a law school. A law school from a state university perhaps 90 miles away has recently opened a branch in my home town, offering full and part time programs. Working part time for a law degree was unheard of in my younger years. I'd love to see the graduation statistics on these people.

 

What this comes back to is that graduate/professional schools can be expensive--all the more reason to finish undergraduate with little or no debt!

 

Jane

[memphispeg]

The whole article was v. sad. I have a dd in college who would probably find law school interesting and do well there and would be a good attorney. It would be hard for me to encourage her in that direction these days.

[TravelingChris]

My d is certainly thinking about becoming a lawyer, but specifically a prosecutor. Here are somethings we are doing about this- if she chooses rightly, she may have free law school or very low cost. This is if she decides to go a school that is full ride or nearly full ride for college and then saves GI bill for law school. Second of all, she is a very hard worker and she isn't going into law for money. She doesn't mind, and in fact, loves to write briefs. Unless she decides she wants to become a constitional lawyer, she will be going to a state school (lower cost). Why? Because going to a state school is a perfectly respectable way to get into prosecutorial law. She is well aware that lawyers in the DA office don't make that much money. SHe isn't going for money. SHe also considering doing an undergraduate degree in a field that gets employment and working for a few years before law school.

 

Here is the thing, I think too many people are doing law school today. But that doesn't mean that someone who has the right personality, the right work ethic, and the right talents should be discouraged from pursuing it. It just means that all those who go to law school as a means of getting rich without much work shouldn't apply. It means that those who can't delay gratification shouldn't apply. It means that anyone who isn't passionate about the law shouldn't apply. It isn't a career to just sort of be interested in. But in the same way I wouldn't tell a very talented musician not to go to music school or tell a very talented artist not to go to art school, I wouldn't tell a person very well suited to law not to do that. What I would warn against is high debt.

[FaithManor]

Here here!! I think this is what is wrong with A LOT of professions, medicine too. The lack of passion or love for what one does, but the attraction of "making a buck" brings a plethora of individuals into the major. Nursing is one example in our area. Everybody is going into nursing. The ADN programs have waiting lists. These are all people who used to do something else and probably they liked that something else more than nursing, but the economy is SOOOOOO bad in Michigan, that they've lost their jobs and through federal and state programs, are getting tuition assistance to start new careers. Guess what we have now, A HUGE NUMBER OF NURSES THAT I WOULDN'T WANT TO TOUCH ME! Seriously, these people do not like what they are doing, much less love it, and are quite vocal about it. But, it's good money and good benefits so they are willing to go into a profession that is literally life and death, with a rotten attitude because they can make money and benefits at it. UGH!

 

Meanwhile, my dd who absolutely, totally, completely adores medicine and does not care one lick about the money, is competing with these people for positions in college, scholarships, etc. When she completes here pre-med, she'll be competing for positions with people who are only in medicine for what they perceive as "the big pay off". In the case of a lot of foreign students she has met, they do not want to be in medicine at all. But, there is huge cultural pressure on them to a. be in medicine for the prestige and b. make a bunch of money working in a specialty field so that they can send that money "home" to relatives. Many of these non-passionate students got the scholarships because they come from poor homes in third world countries. DD has already decided that she will give up on med-school if she can't get scholarships. She knows the dangers of those high debts that med students have which cause many a young doctor to work 60 hours a week in a medical practice, another 12 in a hospital clinic, and another 12 hour shift or two as a "paramedic" for EMS when they are short handed. It's crazy.

 

Some days I really have a diffcult time wrapping my brain around the current college system.

 

Faith

[LibraryLover]

What being a homeschooler for so many years has done for me and mine is encouraged us to see outside the box, to step off the machine of conformity. That includes everything...time frames, how we spend out money, and other abstract expectations that have nothing to do with our reality or values.

 

My family has had time to figure out who they are and what is important to them. My oldest dd is 'supposed' to go off to a far away college next year, but instead she is doing a Gap year. She will work, travel, take short art seminars in the UK, and NYC, and then go to school full time. Some people (even a homeschooler here or there stuck trying to recreate school at home) have said , "Oh, aren't you afraid you'll be too old for college at 19?" Too old, too young, too late, too soon--those phrases are so limiting. I don't want them to have a place of power in our lives, and so far they do not.

 

The student in the article probably tanked the LSAT and didn't have many choices. Going into a profession just for the money is going to have you making poor decisions at the onset. If you know what you want to do, if you know what you value--and what you don't-- 1/4 million dollars in debt, fi-- then you go ahead and work towards that goal in a way that makes sense. If you decide you know you care about law...you figure it out, you understand that you won't subject yourself to such debt.

 

Maybe you work for a while and save money. Maybe you try to define life and success in a way that makes sense to you, and gives clarity and purpose to your life. Maybe it's not about the dollar, maybe it's not about how much you can get, but how much you can give.

Edited January 10, 2011 by LibraryLover

[rlugbill]

I am a lawyer at a public defender's office, so I don't make a lot of money. Never did and never will. But it's enough to live on, which is all I need, and there are good benefits for my family. And it is meaningful work.

 

But the caseload is enormous. We sometimes have 500 clients at a time. No time to talk to clients or to do much on their cases. You just do the best you can.

 

Anyway, I had the choice of going to a state school for free essentially or going to a private law school with a better reputation but paying a lot more for it. I opted for the state school, but still took out some student loans for living expenses during law school. I am still paying on those loans 10 years later.

 

Unless you are going to one of the top ten schools and plan to work for one of the big firms, it is a mistake to pay for a private law school. The big firms pay the big bucks but if you don't go to one of the top ten schools, it will be tough to get one of the big firm jobs unless you are at the top of your class and on law review at a state school.

 

Because the big firms are very concerned about their reputations and are very interested in credentials. Credentials = big name school, top 10% of your class, law review, clerking for an appellate judge, and working for a big firm.

 

I didn't want to play the whole prestige game- it was a big turn-off for me. So, I just went and practiced law instead. And that is what I am still doing.

[LibraryLover]

It sounds to me that you are thinking outside the box, and doing what matters to you. I personally think that is wonderful. You might not be spending tons of time with each client, but they are getting something from you that they could not possibly afford it they had to pay a private firm.

 

I am a lawyer at a public defender's office, so I don't make a lot of money. Never did and never will. But it's enough to live on, which is all I need, and there are good benefits for my family. And it is meaningful work.

 

But the caseload is enormous. We sometimes have 500 clients at a time. No time to talk to clients or to do much on their cases. You just do the best you can.

 

Anyway, I had the choice of going to a state school for free essentially or going to a private law school with a better reputation but paying a lot more for it. I opted for the state school, but still took out some student loans for living expenses during law school. I am still paying on those loans 10 years later.

 

Unless you are going to one of the top ten schools and plan to work for one of the big firms, it is a mistake to pay for a private law school. The big firms pay the big bucks but if you don't go to one of the top ten schools, it will be tough to get one of the big firm jobs unless you are at the top of your class and on law review at a state school.

 

Because the big firms are very concerned about their reputations and are very interested in credentials. Credentials = big name school, top 10% of your class, law review, clerking for an appellate judge, and working for a big firm.

 

I didn't want to play the whole prestige game- it was a big turn-off for me. So, I just went and practiced law instead. And that is what I am still doing.

[Hillary in KS]

Isn't Elizabeth a lawyer? maybe she'll chime in. :bigear:

[distancia]

My oldest dd is 'supposed' to go off to a far away college next year, but instead she is doing a Gap year. ...then go off to school full time. Some people (even a homeschooler here or there stuck trying to recreate school at home) have said , "Oh, aren't you afraid you'll be too old for college at 19?" Too old, too young, too late, too soon--those phrases are so limiting.

 

My D was invited to attend an information session by Harvard. Several times throughout "the talk" the reps repeated that Harvard prefers their incoming freshman to experience a Gap year--or two. In the literature D received the point was reiterated more than once: Gap year, please!

[elizabeth]

IT is a losing game. I graduated in 92 and regret attending law school rather than attending a uni for a PhD in philosophy. I applied and had a stipend, three courses to teach and would have been professionally satisfied. However, I married the attorney I clerked for and have a delightful daughter from that union. I would not trade her for all the debt in France. Which incidentally is smaller than what I owe for law school. The article was far too gentle with regard to the outrageous expectations created in the mind of law school grads. I was in the top 10 of my class , honors courses, independent study, the whole shebang. What a waste. Frankly the coursework was childs play compared to what was demanded of me as an undergraduate but philosophy is without question the most demanding course of sturdy in the liberal arts. There it is. Better to be a happy barista with a degree in art history than an unemployed attorney with a s***load of debt and a healthy contempt for the ability to twist, distort and outright lie with the best of them. Not pretty but you deserve the truth from this attorney's perspective. If dd wanted to be an attorney I would refuse to assist in any way. Really and truly .

[FloridaLisa]

Well, yes, the hiring market for attorneys has changed, just as it has for most other professions. It's really the same question we've pondered many times: is it worth it and, if so when, to go into debt for schooling? Three years of law school can be done for a lot less than $250,000. Like lrugbill, I specifically chose a state school b/c I didn't want the debt. Good law firms recruit heavily from good state schools. And pay their first-years the same salary as those from pricier schools.

 

You never know what the future holds. Keeping debt low or nil gives the graduate options -- to work for the state, to work for a non-profit, to hang out his own shingle, or retire and homeschool. :D I've been following the Moneysavingmom blog and am really enjoying stories of familes that have made it through graduate school without debt.

 

Lisa

Edited January 24, 2011 by FloridaLisa

[Leonor]

"Here is the thing, I think too many people are doing law school today. But that doesn't mean that someone who has the right personality, the right work ethic, and the right talents should be discouraged from pursuing it. It just means that all those who go to law school as a means of getting rich without much work shouldn't apply. It means that those who can't delay gratification shouldn't apply. It means that anyone who isn't passionate about the law shouldn't apply. It isn't a career to just sort of be interested in. But in the same way I wouldn't tell a very talented musician not to go to music school or tell a very talented artist not to go to art school, I wouldn't tell a person very well suited to law not to do that. What I would warn against is high debt."

Transient Chris

:iagree:"You never know what the future holds". Quote Florida Lisa

Although I graduated from law school 23 years ago and I know the cost was not the same as it is now, I would not say I wouldn't do it because after all now I'm just a non-practicing homeschool mom. I would still encourage my child to pursue it if it is what he is called to do and the passion of his heart. We just have to be wise about not going into high debt.

We are still a year away from graduating high school. But, we may be having to make that choice someday.

My ds16 had always said he wanted to be a history professor, this means pursuing a PhD. However, I have always seen his talent and felt he would make a very good lawyer. I have always encouraged him to pursue it if he should choose to do so. He has become passionate about Constitutional Law. He still would like to teach history as well. He love history, philosophy, law. For now, he plans to go to college and major in History and Political Philosophy.

One can always say those are not money making majors as well. I'm certainly not going to say major in business.

I majored in Accounting (not knowing that in reality it had nothing to do with math) and I would have dreaded to have to work in said field, that is why I went to law school. I practiced until I had children.

I love to discuss law with my ds.

 

"I am a lawyer at a public defender's office, so I don't make a lot of money. Never did and never will. But it's enough to live on, which is all I need, and there are good benefits for my family. And it is meaningful work." Quote rlugbill

I agree

 

Now I just need to go to a school to learn "Computer for Dummies" because I can't figure out the quoting thing!

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2011 by Leonor

[moki4]

Your Dd doesn't have to work those hours once she is finished with residency. You are describing the family physician who not only has regular office hours, but is on call for admits/ER (this practice is quickly fading). Instead, family physicians are now letting the hospitalists admit their patients...hospitalists do this job very well.

There are more and more specialists who work reg office hours with minimal rotating call.

If she really wants to do it, then advocate for her! We need smart, caring and empathetic people in healthcare.

Good luck!:)

[Kareni]

Now I just need to go to a school to learn "Computer for Dummies" because I can't figure out the quoting thing!

 

 

Click the multi-quote button on each post you want to quote. It is in the lower right hand of each post and looks like a quotation mark with a plus sign. It should turn orange.

 

Then click on Post Reply at the lower left of all of the posts. Each post you quoted will appear in a box.

 

You can add material before and after each post as well as delete some material that you don't wish to keep. Make sure you keep the starting

so that the formatting stays correct.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Leonor]

Thanks!

[jld]

IT is a losing game. I graduated in 92 and regret attending law school rather than attending a uni for a PhD in philosophy. I applied and had a stipend, three courses to teach and would have been professionally satisfied. However, I married the attorney I clerked for and have a delightful daughter from that union. I would not trade her for all the debt in France. Which incidentally is smaller than what I owe for law school. The article was far too gentle with regard to the outrageous expectations created in the mind of law school grads. I was in the top 10 of my class , honors courses, independent study, the whole shebang. What a waste. Frankly the coursework was childs play compared to what was demanded of me as an undergraduate but philosophy is without question the most demanding course of sturdy in the liberal arts. There it is. Better to be a happy barista with a degree in art history than an unemployed attorney with a s***load of debt and a healthy contempt for the ability to twist, distort and outright lie with the best of them. Not pretty but you deserve the truth from this attorney's perspective. If dd wanted to be an attorney I would refuse to assist in any way. Really and truly .

 

What a powerful post, elizabeth. You've given us a lot to think about. Thanks for sharing this.