Circumcision Could Prevent HPV

[Spy Car]

I am saying that the heterosexual transmission rates in the US are minuscule compared to the countries for which the WHO's recommendations apply.

 

Let's hope that is always the case, and that AIDS is eradicated around the world. Until that happens the contraction of HIV remains a valid concern. I had too many people I knew and cared for die from AIDS to treat this disease lightly. Thank goodness for anti-vitals, but....

 

 

 

Neither is there a difference in biology when it comes to other communicable diseases. Did you immunize your child for smallpox? Rabies? Typhoid? It stands to reason you would if you are only taking biology into account instead of also considering environment and disease prevalence.

 

Don't children get smallpox shots? I thought so, but maybe I have that wrong? I did not know there was a vaccine against rabies or typhoid, but I'd consider them (after study) were the chance of contagion as likely as that of getting HIV I'd pay close attention to my options.

 

Bill

[Joanne]

Don't children get smallpox shots? I thought so, but maybe I have that wrong? I did not know there was a vaccine against rabies or typhoid, but I'd consider them (after study) were the chance of contagion as likely as that of getting HIV I'd pay close attention to my options.

 

Bill

 

Not in the US since 1972.

[Nakia]

Bill,

I would really like to hear your thoughts on female circumcision. You have been asked several times in this thread, and as far as I can tell, you haven't answered yet.

[Spy Car]

I'm curious why people believe that there is no pain associated with male circumcision. As a nurse who has assisted at numerous circs, my personal experience has been otherwise. Usually the newborn was given some tylenol beforehand, and some injections of lidocaine during. It didn't seem to do much, and those boys were certainly in a signifigant amount of pain.

 

 

I believe so because I witnessed by own son's circumcision and saw that he had no reaction what-so-ever to the procedure. If doctors are causing pain they are not doing things correctly. There is no need for there to be any pain.

 

Bill

[Slartibartfast]

Is there something biologically different in the foreskins of men in industrialized countries? I don't think so.

 

Bill

 

There are vast differences in culture, education, information, available prevention methods (condoms) and the availablility and affordability of testing.

 

Not to mention the question of who were these men having sex with? Was there also a study done on the prevelance of AIDS/HIV in the female population in that area?

[Spy Car]

Bill,

I would really like to hear your thoughts on female circumcision. You have been asked several times in this thread, and as far as I can tell, you haven't answered yet.

 

I think it is an insulting question, to be honest. "Female circumcision" (so called) removes the clitoris and has no relation to the removal of the male foreskin.

 

Female Genetal Mutilation is barbaric. Analogizing between FGM and male circumcision is a contemptible tactic. Those are my thoughts.

 

Bill

[nmoira]

 

FWIW, breastfeeding and not giving birth in a hospital are two things that also protect against UTIs in babies.

Not having children will dramatically decrease the risk to one's offspring as well. :tongue_smilie:

[Mrs Mungo]

Don't children get smallpox shots? I thought so, but maybe I have that wrong?

 

Not in the US. Children are still often vaccinated in Europe.

 

I did not know there was a vaccine against rabies or typhoid, but I'd consider them (after study) were the chance of contagion as likely as that of getting HIV I'd pay close attention to my options.

Well, 16 million people contract typhoid each year. Fewer than 400 of those are Americans, but we should not account for environment according to you. Is the biology of Americans different than other people? No.

 

There are vast differences in culture, education, information, available prevention methods (condoms) and the availablility and affordability of testing.

 

Not to mention the question of who were these men having sex with? Was there also a study done on the prevelance of AIDS/HIV in the female population in that area?

 

Exactly. One must take into account more than biology.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[keptwoman]

It remains that the mucous membranes of the foreskin are a prime entry point for sexually transmitted diseases, and that the warm moist environment under the foreskin is a perfect environment for bacteria and viruses to multiply.

 

There are real issues with hygiene due to the interaction of smegma and bacteria under the foreskin of uncircumcised men. Can it be mitigated against with due attention? Yes, kind of. Does it need to be? Unquestionably.

 

Both of these things are equally present in a womens labia, however I have seen you argue passionately against female circumcision. What is the difference? Girls get more UTIs, surely if we circumcise our sons for these reasons, we should also circumcise our daughters by removing their labias. And I want to be clear, I'm talking about removing girls LABIA, not their clitoris. Why are you not advocating for that too? Will you remove your daughter's (if you have one) labia to confer her the same benefits?

I choose to keep all my children intact.

 

Then women should likewise go have all their labia removed?

Exactly.

Edited January 11, 2011 by keptwoman

[Spy Car]

There are vast differences in culture, education, information, available prevention methods (condoms) and the availablility and affordability of testing.

 

And all it takes is for one condom to break, or for there to be one slip-up with unprotected sex for, all that culture and education to go out the window. It's a dice roll.

 

 

bill

[Spy Car]

Not in the US since 1972.

 

I didn't know.

 

Bill

[Mrs Mungo]

I think it is an insulting question, to be honest. "Female circumcision" (so called) removes the clitoris and has no relation to the removal of the male foreskin.

 

Female Genetal Mutilation is barbaric. Analogizing between FGM and male circumcision is a contemptible tactic. Those are my thoughts.

 

Bill

 

My son was born in Germany. Routine circumcision of newborns is almost exclusively a religious thing. Most Germans consider it equally barbaric. Tribes in Africa who practice ritual female circumcision do not consider their own practices barbaric. These are cultural views, not facts.

 

Not having children will dramatically decrease the risk to one's offspring as well. :tongue_smilie:

True.

[Haiku]

If doctors are causing pain they are not doing things correctly. There is no need for there to be any pain.

 

 

I really find this nearly impossible to believe. Any surgical removal of any part of the body that has nerve endings is going to cause pain. If doctors successfully utilize anesthetics during the procedure, that's great, but then you still have healing time and all that to take into consideration, and from my understanding, post-surgical painkillers are usually not administered for RIC.

 

I mean, I have had teeth pulled and it didn't hurt at the time, because the dentist used anesthetic, but it sure hurt afterwards.

 

I've also always wondered what it feels like to have the skin of your penis cut off and then have that wound in a wet diaper. Pee stings on cuts. :o

 

Tara

[Spy Car]

Well, 16 million people contract typhoid each year. Fewer than 400 of those are Americans, but we should not account for environment according to you. Is the biology of Americans different than other people? No.

 

 

Did I say one should not account for environment? I did not. The prevalence of HIV in this country, and around the world, is high enough that HIV is a concern for me as a parent. You may feel otherwise. Where rates will go in the future, I have no way of knowing. Hopefully medical science eradicates this disease in the future, but who knows?

 

Bill

[Slartibartfast]

And all it takes is for one condom to break, or for there to be one slip-up with unprotected sex for, all that culture and education to go out the window. It's a dice roll.

 

 

bill

 

And it is a dice roll in relation to the risks of the procedure itself.

 

Why is one risk more acceptable than the other? Why does the infant have the burden?

 

If it was so simple then it should be postulated that Europe, with a more Liberal view towards sex and a much lower circ rate (or even banned in some areas) would have a higher rate of contraction than the US but it does not.

 

In fact, in the DC area the HIGHEST rates are for 40-49 year olds (7.9) who would have been even more likely to have been circumcised but also sexually active before there was as much information about HIV/AIDS and black males (6.5)

 

http://www.avert.org/usa-states-cities.htm

 

 

I wouldn't postulate that there is a difference but that the concentration of some of the high infection areas are also in areas of higher poverty, lower education and likely less access to medical facilities for testing and less money for prevention (condoms)

Edited January 11, 2011 by Sis

[Nakia]

I really find this nearly impossible to believe. Any surgical removal of any part of the body that has nerve endings is going to cause pain. If doctors successfully utilize anesthetics during the procedure, that's great, but then you still have healing time and all that to take into consideration, and from my understanding, post-surgical painkillers are usually not administered for RIC.

 

I mean, I have had teeth pulled and it didn't hurt at the time, because the dentist used anesthetic, but it sure hurt afterwards.

 

I've also always wondered what it feels like to have the skin of your penis cut off and then have that wound in a wet diaper. Pee stings on cuts. :o

 

Tara

 

You are right, Tara, painkillers are NOT ordered for RIC. I had to demand the doc order Tylenol for the baby I cared for with the botched circ. I literally had to call her three times and make her come see the wound before she would prescribe it (she was not the doc who did the circ). IME, babies are so exhausted after the circ they sleep for 3-4 straight hours, and then they are fussy and in pain for the rest of their hospital stay. The pediatricians do use local anesthetic in the hospital where I work. I don't know how long it takes for them to heal after they leave the hospital. But to insist circs are pain free is simply not true. Amputation of a body part hurts. Period.

[Mrs Mungo]

Did I say one should not account for environment? I did not. The prevalence of HIV in this country, and around the world, is high enough that HIV is a concern for me as a parent.

 

You said that the biology of American males is the same of other males in the world and therefore one should apply the WHO's recommendations in every case. This implies discounting environmental factors. It also implies you should apply WHO medical recommendations in other cases as well.

 

You may feel otherwise. Where rates will go in the future, I have no way of knowing. Hopefully medical science eradicates this disease in the future, but who knows?

 

Bill

 

Again, this statement implies that the choice we made for our son is as irreversible as the one you made for your son. It is not. If time and medical research indicate further benefits, then he can weigh the risks and benefits for himself as an adult.

[Spy Car]

I really find this nearly impossible to believe.

 

Groucho Marx once said "who are you going to trust me, or your own lying eyes?"

 

I was there. I paid close attention because I care about my child as much as I care about anything in this world. There was not even a wince. And that is the absolute truth.

 

Bill

[Haiku]

I was there. I paid close attention because I care about my child as much as I care about anything in this world. There was not even a wince. And that is the absolute truth.

 

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I wasn't questioning that part. I fully believe the procedure itself can be painless, if proper anesthetic is used (like in my dentistry example). But what about after? That was the point of my post.

 

Tara

[mommaduck]

I think it is an insulting question, to be honest. "Female circumcision" (so called) removes the clitoris and has no relation to the removal of the male foreskin.

 

Female Genetal Mutilation is barbaric. Analogizing between FGM and male circumcision is a contemptible tactic. Those are my thoughts.

 

Bill

So you would be supportive of it if it meant only removing the labia and clitoral hood, which is comparative and does the same job.

[AnnaM]

This conversation is starting to go in circles so here is my last 2 cents.

 

I have never and will never agree with cutting off any part of my child's body on the chance that maybe one day s/he might contract an illness.

[Spy Car]

So you would be supportive of it if it meant only removing the labia and clitoral hood, which is comparative and does the same job.

 

If these are the tactics you wish to employ I won't discuss this with you further.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I wasn't questioning that part. I fully believe the procedure itself can be painless, if proper anesthetic is used (like in my dentistry example). But what about after? That was the point of my post.

 

Tara

 

After there is a period of recovery where the wound heals. We witnessed no discomfort. Newborns can't speak, but they are still pretty good about communicating when they are unhappy or in pain. We saw nothing of the kind. And it was really not an issue beyond applying ointments and dressings for a brief period.

 

Bill

[mommaduck]

If these are the tactics you wish to employ I won't discuss this with you further.

 

Bill

It wasn't a tactic. It was using the same logic as those that use FGM (and some will tell you that they don't touch the clitoris...apparently there are variations of FGM as well)...using the same conclusions of health, sanitation, etc about female parts that ARE equivalent to male parts. They do the same job, and if removed, they have been viewed as having the same benefits. If it's beneficial beyond a doubt for males, then why would it not be beneficial for females? It's an honest question. I think it's more cultural in how we look at it. Male circ, oh, no problem we are used to that. Female circ, oh my, can't have that. Remember, I've been on both sides and I'm not a rabid intactivist. I'm asking a legitimate and logical question.

[mommaduck]

After there is a period of recovery where the wound heals. We witnessed no discomfort. Newborns can't speak, but they are still pretty good about communicating when they are unhappy or in pain. We saw nothing of the kind. And it was really not an issue beyond applying ointments and dressings for a brief period.

 

Bill

Apparently you missed over the post where my oldest went into a semi comatose state of shock that lasted for 3-4days, but included screaming in his sleep.

[keptwoman]

If these are the tactics you wish to employ I won't discuss this with you further.

 

Bill

It's a legitimate question about a comparable procedure. Tactics have got nothing to do with it. Why the horror at one and the acceptance of the other? It seems to me to come down to cultural acceptability.

[kalanamak]

It's a legitimate question about a comparable procedure.

 

 

Not comparable. The amount of flesh cut through is vastly different.

Roll a foreskin between your fingers. Roll a labia between your fingers. Not the same creature. It would be more like removing the scrotal sac of the boy.

 

I say this as a non-circ'r.

[mommaduck]

Not comparable. The amount of flesh cut through is vastly different.

Roll a foreskin between your fingers. Roll a labia between your fingers. Not the same creature. It would be more like removing the scrotal sac of the boy.

 

I say this as a non-circ'r.

Amount may be different. Type and purpose are pretty much the same. The beneficial claims of both are the same.

[Pretty in Pink]

What is one referring to when they compare the hygeine of circ'ed and uncirc'ed penises? The argument is often made that circ'ed penises are more hygeinic than uncirc'ed. How? I'm not trying to be obtuse. Please explain this to me. I do not get it.

 

I have been with intact men. I have three intact sons. Intact penises need not be dirty, smelly, sticky, or otherwise unpleasant. They are not difficult to care for. Never forcibly retract; once retraction occurs naturally, clean it daily. It takes a few seconds longer than cleaning a circ'ed penis, but it's not difficult.

[keptwoman]

Amount may be different. Type and purpose are pretty much the same. The beneficial claims of both are the same.

 

Yes, and I would think that the amount of nerve endings in a labia would be far less than in a foreskin, so less loss of sensation. Smegma and bacteria are just as present in a labia as in a foreskin, and the female urethra is shorter meaning that that bacteria is more likely to move on up.

[mommaduck]

Yes, and I would think that the amount of nerve endings in a labia would be far less than in a foreskin, so less loss of sensation. Smegma and bacteria are just as present in a labia as in a foreskin, and the female urethra is shorter meaning that that bacteria is more likely to move on up.

And amount is not too much different if we are talking about infantile sizes of both. You can't compare a full grown woman's labia to an infant male's foreskin. I've had both genders...I would not say that there is a large difference at infancy.

[SonshineLearner]

As a mom with a small boy... uncirc'd... yes... it's easier to keep the space between the foreskin and the actual p*nis clean... if the foreskin isn't there. Also, because in America, this last generation of Drs is mostly circ'd... they would say things like "clean in there"... and moms would try to forcibly clean under the foreskin before it retracted... and then it gets infected.... and more. If Drs were enlightened and felt like talking about it the same amt as say... vaccinations... etc.... Moms and Dads would know what NOT to do with the babies... I actually didn't want anyone to change my son's diapers that I hadn't explained the whole "leave it alone" part ... Because of the stories I'd heard. I have even heard stories about Drs trying to forcibly retract during office visits. Really, I think most of the time that guys talk about being circ'd... if they are... they just want to validate their own state of being circ'd and can't imagine it being better without being circ'd. (the whole ego thing)

I always ask, "If you had your big toe cut off because of tradition, would you want that to happen to your son, just so you'd look alike??" Seriously!