If you are an "Ex-Christian," may I ask why?

[Mommyfaithe]

:grouphug: Grief is hard enough without idiotic statements like that. I'm sorry for your loss.

 

:iagree: some people ....of every persuasion....are morons.

[Carol in Cal.]

Yep, it's evil false doctrine with big fancy hair.

 

 

Or, with overly-slick, no-I-am-way-too-cool-for-a barber, salon-cut-and-style-every-3-weeks hair.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Carol in Cal.

[Mommyfaithe]

I have been reading this thread with fascination. But this comment struck me. It has been my experience that people assume if you DO believe, it is because you are ignorant. Funny.

 

:iagree:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

How utterly tragic.

 

My brother and only sibling was killed in an auto accident when he was 17 and I was 18. My parents dealt with it, and though we speak of Joel often, it's always happily, remembering good times of recounting funny stories.

 

One day a neighbor was complaining to my mother about how her son had just come out to the family, and now she'd "lost him" because she just cannot be around him knowing his lifestyle, and about how he was "dead to her now."

 

My mother got angrier than I've ever seen her, and told the woman in no uncertain terms that she was being completely ridiculous, because her son was ALIVE, regardless of his lifestyle, he was THERE. She could put her arms around him, hug him, love him, and watch him grow and mature. She continued, but you get the point. Mom and the neighbor woman do not speak, but the poor guy is still shunned from her house. What a sad, sad waste.

 

I just don't get it.

 

astrid

 

 

Ohmygosh!! That is just awful!! I have heard people say that "dead to me" thing before, but never really thought about it. (They weren't saying it about someone being dead to THEM, that their parents would do the same IF....) I'm glad your mom gave her a piece of her mind!

[Nakia]

How utterly tragic.

 

My brother and only sibling was killed in an auto accident when he was 17 and I was 18. My parents dealt with it, and though we speak of Joel often, it's always happily, remembering good times of recounting funny stories.

 

One day a neighbor was complaining to my mother about how her son had just come out to the family, and now she'd "lost him" because she just cannot be around him knowing his lifestyle, and about how he was "dead to her now."

 

My mother got angrier than I've ever seen her, and told the woman in no uncertain terms that she was being completely ridiculous, because her son was ALIVE, regardless of his lifestyle, he was THERE. She could put her arms around him, hug him, love him, and watch him grow and mature. She continued, but you get the point. Mom and the neighbor woman do not speak, but the poor guy is still shunned from her house. What a sad, sad waste.

 

I just don't get it.

 

astrid

 

That makes me feel ill. I just don't get it either, Astrid.

[astrid]

I'm glad your mom gave her a piece of her mind!

 

Oh, she certainly gave her a piece of her mind. Seriously--- I've never seen her that angry, before or since. NEVER. Mom was literally shaking with anger.

 

I love my mom! :-)

 

astrid

[Ginevra]

If you've ever watched the movie Jesus Camp......that was my childhood, right down to the praying over the electrical equipment/praying, almost screeching/screaming in tongues, etc.

__________________

 

This is how the church my family went to when I was 12-16 yo was. Every Sunday, it was speaking-in-tongues, slain-in-the-spirit, annoint-with-oil cacophony. I despised it. I even remember in my "Sunday School", when normal teens would be learning discipleship, we made out a "goals/prayer" chart. Very Charles Schuller (is that his name? The Crystal Cathedral prosperity guy?) We were supposed to pray about these things, i.e., "That I would become a model" or "That my parents will get a new car." Our church would have "Healing services" with people like John Wesley Fletcher (who later went down with the other frauds). The super-opulent-rich people high in the church became so over the top, you can barely imagine it. Picture red-carpet-style, full-length, sequined cocktail gowns, hats with feathers and of course, matching stilettos and a red handbag. In the parking lot, it was Mercedes, Cadillacs, Beamers. By the time it came to that, my parents reluctantly changed churches, but I always wondered if they "bought" any of that, throwing money into the basket, "casting their bread on the water," and feeling badly because we still drove a VW Bus and wore clothes from Goodwill. They left a little while after the Jim and Tammy Baker scandal; I think they really started to look askance at that church at that point, but I hated it long before then. (Not that I hated church; I just hated that version of it.)

 

My mom is still big on praying about every thing. I don't know how she has the fortitude sometimes, but - whatever - I guess it makes her happy.

[Just Robyn]

I think. . . maybe part of it is that the "heart" hasn't changed in the way you think it has. People try to claim that religion is fact, and that if you study history and the Bible an honest seeker will believe. Really, you said it best by intimating that changing religion is in the heart. I think in many cases, deconversion is the triumph of the head over the heart.

 

This.

 

Really? Can one just "believe"!

 

Believe that Abraham Lincoln was a space alien! (Did it work?) :) :tongue_smilie:

 

And this.

[Ginevra]

One day a neighbor was complaining to my mother about how her son had just come out to the family, and now she'd "lost him" because she just cannot be around him knowing his lifestyle, and about how he was "dead to her now."

 

I'm glad your mom blew a fuse. That is a horrible thing to say and moreso to someone who has actually lost their child. I would tear into that idiot, too.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Quill, so much of what you wrote rang so true for me! I went to a xian high school and was put on the basketball team. (only because they needed one more person. It was not due to my height, at 5'2''.) We used to pray during the pre-game huddles and I always thought, "but, we only play against other xian school,....aren't they praying, too? Won't this ultimately come down to whoever is better at that given moment and not divine intervention?!'' But, of course, that was probably blasphemy.

 

I have SO MUCH MORE RESPECT for xians I have met since my time in that cult. Like the ones on this board.....the xians who just live out their faith, quietly, not with their hand on the Giant Holy Ghost Vending Machine. "All I gotta' do is give more than 10% and I'll get BLESSED, BLESSED, BLESSED!"

 

I always wanted to say (to the ppl I knew while growing up), "Look, people, I've read the bible and that's not what I thought it said. I thought it had a lot more to do with what you can GIVE than what you can GET, but maybe I read it wrong". They would have agreed...........agreed that I read it wrong.

Edited January 6, 2011 by ThatCyndiGirl

[Mommyfaithe]

Oh, she certainly gave her a piece of her mind. Seriously--- I've never seen her that angry, before or since. NEVER. Mom was literally shaking with anger.

 

I love my mom! :-)

 

astrid

 

I think I love your mom too.

[catz]

Interesting thread. I don't often play on threads like this, but what the heck. I'll bite.

 

I was raised Catholic with 9 years of Catholic school under my belt. I went through Confirmation and did the whole thing. I questioned it from elementary school. What they taught never made sense logically. Intellectualism what not valued at this school. I remember those years as being filled with fear and guilt.

 

I went on to high school and college. I became an honor student. I travelled the world - including Asia and Europe. During those years, I read the bible which seemed full of contradictions. I explored many faiths - Baptist, Lutheran, Buddhist, Baha'i, Catholic campus communities, Hindu, etc. At that point, I couldn't find a doctrine I could remotely believe (although I drew wisdom from Buddhist philosophy). I developed close friends in the gay community and couldn't stand with an religion that didn't accept that sexual orientation is not a choice. I have a gay friend that was raised on a rural farm in Iowa with 3 very macho brothers. He told me with tears in his eyes how he knew he was different at age 3 and the pain of growing up in that environment, just being told he should pray it away.

 

I met my husband who was also raised Catholic. We both realized if we were married in the Catholic church it would mean nothing to either of us. Given that we were 28 and 36, we'd both been on our own for a long while, paid for the majority of our wedding, it felt like we should find our own road. We found a Unitarian church when we were looking for a wedding location. It was the only church we called that was truly welcoming to us. They weren't out to "convert" us to anything. We didn't have sign over our first born. Over the next several months we found out this community allowed you to question and explore, was heavily involved in doing good in the community, and had a lovely base of young families that were just like us. People who never had a church or left a church for whatever reason. They house the homeless, welcome the gay community, reach out to poverty filled neighborhoods, and promote tolerance of all kinds (including religious). Just for the record, Unitarian Universilism is not dogmatic. Their only tenets are humanist.

 

So we no longer identify as Christian or Catholic. But I'm happy to ID as an agnostic unitarian universalist with some Buddhist leanings. And no one needs to pray for me or try to convert me. There are many paths to leading a righteous and moral life.

Edited January 6, 2011 by kck

[catz]

I'm glad your mom blew a fuse. That is a horrible thing to say and moreso to someone who has actually lost their child. I would tear into that idiot, too.

 

Totally agree. That is just horrible.

[Ginevra]

I always wanted to say (to the ppl I knew while growing up), "Look, people, I've read the bible and that's not what I thought it said. I thought it had a lot more to do with what you can GIVE than what you can GET, but maybe I read it wrong". They would have agreed...........agreed that I read it wrong.

 

:lol: Gotta put your faith goggles on and read it again, or better yet, just take a look at this handy book we've compiled. Here are all the scriptures you'll ever need, packaged into this slim, attractive booklet with gen-u-ine gold engraving on the front. Only $22.99. Plus S&H. :lol:

 

I did marvel (later) at how I had been to church (and youth group) for several years, but we always read and quoted the same scriptures, the "faith" scriptures. There were tons of interesting things in the Bible I never even laid eyes on until I was in my late 20's.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

:lol: Gotta put your faith goggles on and read it again, or better yet, just take a look at this handy book we've compiled. Here are all the scriptures you'll ever need, packaged into this slim, attractive booklet with gen-u-ine gold engraving on the front. Only $22.99. Plus S&H. :lol:

 

I did marvel (later) at how I had been to church (and youth group) for several years, but we always read and quoted the same scriptures, the "faith" scriptures. There were tons of interesting things in the Bible I never even laid eyes on until I was in my late 20's.

 

Funny that you brought up the price of the book. I pointed out to my family members, "If you felt so passionately about something, like, something that you think god told you to pass on to other people.....why do you have to make money off of it? Why can't it be your ministry to do it for free?" They always countered with, "well, they have bills to pay and god never said that you can't be rich". (Actually, he kinda DID, with the whole, 'it is easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven' thing, but....again, what do I know?!)

 

I feel passionately about breastfeeding and have given MY info out for free (books I have, late-night phone calls). For me it would feel wrong to say, "you need this information and it will cost ya $19.95".

[BarbecueMom]

I wouldn't consider myself an "ex"-anything. I guess I'm a lapsed Catholic, a former non-denominational Protestant church member... but I'm not entirely sure what I am at this point. I'm non-spiritual. I "feel nothing" in regards to faith. I'm still looking for a way to reconcile the fact that I can accept the theory and history of Christianity, but I am unable (and more and more unwilling) to pursue a spiritual life in any religious practice. Many people want a spiritual life, but cannot believe in a God. I can believe in a God, I just don't want a spiritual life.

 

And then some days I wonder if I just think this way because no one else does.

[Lovedtodeath]

I never bought into it. NEVER. Even as a kid I the one who annoyed the sunday school teachers because I asked the obvious questions that no one else seemed to ask. Their answers were too simplistic. Such as....dinosaurs and people co-existed, but dinosaurs were vegetarians back then. :glare: <---and no, I don't wish to debate this.

 

I "asked Jesus into my heart" so many times that I lost count. Every single time I felt nothing and it accomplished nothing. I always hated reading the bible. It's boring. Going to church was just as boring. So was singin all of those songs. Boring.

 

On the 'not going to church thread' (can't remember title) some poster talked about how "if someone thinks going to church is boring, reading the bible is boring and worshipping god is boring then they aren't a christian, whether they call themselves one or not". Well, there ya go.

 

After awhile I just stopped pretending and this whole other world opened up for me. A world in which I no longer had to pretend. My aunt got onto me for not going to church after I got married. "I told her, "I feel nothing. I do not believe in this. It's not me." She said,"You go because you have faith." I thought, "No, YOU go because YOU have faith."

You know, honestly, when you stuff like in the purple part it annoys me, because I don't see how it is possible, but most of your post makes so much sense and I can start to see how that purple part makes sense because of what I have been through... The thing about that first bolded part that is good is that I can get in depth answers that make sense, but at times I have to ask for them... (actually I can search) so many people think that the simple answer will suffice.

 

I stopped being a Jehovah's Witness (Christian in an organized religion) for years. I would get the same stupid things said to me over and over. "You are punishing God for the actions of imperfect people. You have turned your back on Jehovah. You can't stop serving Him because of what imperfect men do." Hello! I don't believe that this organization represents God, so by leaving said organization I am not choosing to turn my back on him! I am searching for the truth and I don't think this is it. Everything that anyone said to encourage me was more of the same stupid things. They didn't understand that not believing as they did was not the same as rejecting Jehovah God. I still wanted God in my life. I just felt like He wasn't with the congregation. I did try to study some on my own, but that isn't enough.

I've got to agree here. I think many "ex-Christians" have arrived at that point perhaps in part because of the hurtful, judgemental, dishonorable actions of Christians in their lives. At least for those ex Christians I know personally, this has been the case. Because of that, their skin may be a bit sensitive to the question especially in a heavily Christian forum such as this.

 

Not sure, just my guess.

 

 

Peace,

astrid

Astrid's was the last post I read. She is right.

 

I was pushed away by the judgmental actions of others. It is like some Christians have their own brand of prejudice.

 

I was also very upset by the attitude of fear-mongering. Due to circumstances my attendance for religious events is far from perfect. Many people (including my mom) think that God will see fit to destroy me for that. Of course they don't put it that way. They are "scared" that I won't be able to make it through "the great tribulation" or Armageddon. What they fail to realize is that if one doesn't make it through... then it is because God has seen fit to destroy you. I hate that emphasis on fearing the great tribulation. It is not representative of God's personality and is just as harmful as the hellfire doctrine (which I will never accept as Biblical).

 

So with the unloving and/or judgmental actions by some people in one congregation, and the fear mongering that permeates my family members, I was really discouraged and depressed by associating with those people. My self esteem was so low that I found it nearly impossible to pray. So I stopped going. I doubted the organization worldwide and started searching.

 

I have seen that God's people needed correction on many of the same matters before. That is why Paul and Peter wrote letters to the congregations in the first century. Some things have improved in the congregation, some things have improved in my attitude. I have found nothing better. I have researched evolution/creation, the inspiration and preservation of the Bible. I believe all of those things. I have also felt God in my life. The governing body and group of people that organize Jehovah's Witnesses have never let me down. I haven't found another organized religion that provides so much "spiritual food", all of it Bible-based. Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide all teach the same thing. They have that harmony that Jesus spoke of. So I am back. I read an article recently about Samuel that was very encouraging. He didn't give up on God or on God's people. I won't either.

 

 

 

Wow. This is EXACTLY---EXACTLY where my family of myself and 2 teenagers are at...right now! We ARE still Christians, but the 'christians' in this town have such a distorted sense of what it means that after 3 churches and 3 horrible, hurtful experiences....we're taking a break from being around those 'christians' before our true faith is ruined.

That is exactly where I was for a time. Edited January 6, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

Funny that you brought up the price of the book. I pointed out to my family members, "If you felt so passionately about something, like, something that you think god told you to pass on to other people.....why do you have to make money off of it? Why can't it be your ministry to do it for free?" They always countered with, "well, they have bills to pay and god never said that you can't be rich". (Actually, he kinda DID, with the whole, 'it is easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven' thing, but....again, what do I know?!)

 

I feel passionately about breastfeeding and have given MY info out for free (books I have, late-night phone calls). For me it would feel wrong to say, "you need this information and it will cost ya $19.95".

Jehovah's Witnesses do not pass a collection plate, tithe or charge for their literature. (and they have tons of literature! You name a topic and I can find it, and I didn't have to pay for any of it.) They are supported entirely by voluntary donations.

 

This may be an annoying post, but you deserve to know.

[Lovedtodeath]

I moved away gradually, first I questioned the concept of a "loving god" doing and saying the stuff "he" did and said. And allowing people to endure the misery of wars and famines, cancer and other horrible illnesses. I basically decided that if THAT was god, I didn't want a bar of it.

 

Once I started questioning the value in that kind of god of "love" I started questioning that he existed at all, and I realised that I did not have any inherent belief. I don't think belief is a choice, you either do or you don't.

My mom allowed me to endure surgery three times. It was painful. There was suffering. But in the end, it would help. It is so hard so so hard to accept the suffering. Some of it I still don't understand. But overall I understand that it is temporary and necessary. It is like labor pains. Once God's purpose is fulfilled we will have every desire for an eternity and this short time of suffering will not even come to mind. ( I have a three year old on my lap, but if I didn't I would back this all up with scripture, for this is what God's word teaches.)

[Lovedtodeath]

I have tried those arguments and I hear, ''but, Jesus was so rich that they cast lots for his garments!"

Mary was chosen to be Jesus' mother and she was poor by evidence of the offering she made.

I have noticed that people assume that if you do not believe, it's because you are ignorant.

Some people have been unbelievers until they read Young Earth literature or studied with a particular denomination, so in some cases it seems to be true.

 

And then when they mention that they still experience moments of fear of eternal torture then christians will jump on that and say "SEE! I KNEW you still believed in god, that is just god warning you to come back to him" or other such nonsense. They need to 'know' that atheists don't really exist (yes, some people believe there's no such thing as an atheist) for some reason (that's how they protect their faith? IDK). Or they love to say, 'Well, then you weren't REALLY a christian to begin with so you didn't become an atheist you just admitted that you are one.

Eternal torture and "once saved always saved" are not teachings of the True God or the Bible. Edited January 6, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Jehovah's Witnesses do not pass a collection plate, tithe or charge for their literature. (and they have tons of literature! You name a topic and I can find it, and I didn't have to pay for any of it.) They are supported entirely by voluntary donations.

 

This may be an annoying post, but you deserve to know.

 

 

No, I didn't find your posts annoying at all! I didn't know this about JW's. I'm glad I know it now.

 

I think that you were on to something here:

 

"I don't believe that this organization represents God, so by leaving said organization I am not choosing to turn my back on him! I am searching for the truth and I don't think this is it."

 

Too many people, imo, equate church with spirituality. :001_huh:

[Truscifi]

I think for me it was when I read the story of Elijah and the bears. I was 8. Many other things have confirmed my non-belief since then, but yeah, that one story did it.

 

This thread has been very interesting.

[nd293]

For me it started with disenchantment with the church that we were active members in. It was about the behavior of the members - things like finding out that one of the deacons, a man with 4 children around my age had been cheating on his wife. It was about the values of the church - teens who were ducking off confirmation classes I was attending to go and play pool being confirmed as members of the church because, as I saw it, it was more about numbers and not offending exising members than about actual belief in the tenets of the church. Most importantly, it was about how the church and I saw the world - I'd already figured out for myself that there wasn't one way to "get to heaven", and hearing casual comments from the pulpit dismissing the faith of other groups was very important in separating me from the formal church.

 

From there it was just a natural progression. Being outside of the church gave me more room to ask questions about the disconnect I saw between what I was told about God and what I saw in the world. I guess you could say it was about integrity - I could not attain any feeling of "wholeness" until I let go of concepts of god and faith.

[keptwoman]

My mom allowed me to endure surgery three times. It was painful. There was suffering. But in the end, it would help. It is so hard so so hard to accept the suffering. Some of it I still don't understand. But overall I understand that it is temporary and necessary. It is like labor pains.

I wish I could say the same about my fathers cancer that caused his agonisingly slow and miserable demise, the early death of my mother, the people massacred by the genocides in Rwanda and a ton of other countries, the starving in Zimbabwe under a corrupt dictator, I could go on, and on and on. For many people it will not help, it will not end except in the worst possible way. And to my belief, a god of love would not allow those things, hence there is no god. I don't believe that those things are to a greater good, I believe they suck and cause no good. And since I don't believe in eternity, then I can't believe that any better is coming for those poor people.

[Peela]

I wish I could say the same about my fathers cancer that caused his agonisingly slow and miserable demise, the early death of my mother, the people massacred by the genocides in Rwanda and a ton of other countries, the starving in Zimbabwe under a corrupt dictator, I could go on, and on and on. For many people it will not help, it will not end except in the worst possible way. And to my belief, a god of love would not allow those things, hence there is no god. I don't believe that those things are to a greater good, I believe they suck and cause no good. And since I don't believe in eternity, then I can't believe that any better is coming for those poor people.

 

I dont believe in a God that is a paternal figure sitting "up there somewhere" pulling the strings of the planet with sadistic humour, calling it love. I don't think there is a superbeing separate from us, that can manipulate and control us and it works in our favour if we pray a lot to him and do what he says. I see that as an immature belief system.

However, I do think that a lot of suffering on the planet is because of what man does to himself and other men, and blaming God is not quite fair. Wars are man versus man, massacres, poverty...even the skyrocketing rates of cancer have a lot to do with man (lifestyle, envionmental pollution, poor diet, radiation etc). If we need a scapegoat, I guess God will do, but ultimately, when it comes down to it, while we might not individually choose our destiny (family of origin, conditioning, country of birth, life circumstance) to a large extent we do create most of the suffering. This could be a paradise- heaven on earth- but we are doing such a good job of destroying that. But that is mankind's evolution, I presume.

In Buddhism and some other philosophies, there is a distinction between the pain of life, which is inevitable, and what we make of it, which is suffering (which is pretty much inevitable too but we have a lot more control over).

I don't believe in the Christian God, but I don't have a problem with the concept of God, because I don't expect "him" to be responsible. And I do believe "he" is pure Love.

I guess your post touched something in my heart, because I do know in my heart that we are all good, and life is good, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

[Lovedtodeath]

I can't believe that any better is coming for those poor people.

:grouphug:

 

I understand that you are not going to convert due to this post, and that since you don't believe in the Bible, posting scriptures seems like a dumb thing to do. Please don't be offended or annoyed. There is a chance that to someone reading these thoughts are new. Now feel free to post without any replies from me. I am going to sleep now. ;)

 

Romans 8:20 "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope"

 

Acts 24:15 "and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

 

Psalm 145:16 "You open your hand; you satisfy the desire of every living thing."

 

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;"

 

Isaiah 65:17 "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind." (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1; Matthew 5:5)

Edited January 6, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[ThatCyndiGirl]

When people give their god credit for the good that happens then I think they should also give that same entity blame for the bad.

 

It is something along 'divine suckitude' to think that people who are victims of genocide/war/famine, etc. are just hapless victims and no god had any way of helping them......or that a god DID and chose not to. How awful!

 

Life is, indeed,.....unfair.

[keptwoman]

However, I do think that a lot of suffering on the planet is because of what man does to himself and other men, and blaming God is not quite fair. Wars are man versus man, massacres, poverty...even the skyrocketing rates of cancer have a lot to do with man (lifestyle, envionmental pollution, poor diet, radiation etc).

I agree entirely, I absolutely belive that it is man causing these things for the most part, that and biology (as far as the cancer) I don't think that any god has anything to do with them, as I don't believe one exists. What I'm saying is that I can't reconcile the christian idea of a "loving" god ruling over a planet where those things happen.

 

When people give their god credit for the good that happens then I think they should also give that same entity blame for the bad.

 

It is something along 'divine suckitude' to think that people who are victims of genocide/war/famine, etc. are just hapless victims and no god had any way of helping them......or that a god DID and chose not to. How awful!

 

Life is, indeed,.....unfair.

:iagree:

[fairytalemama]

Four Horsemen of the Anti-Apocalypse: Richard Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens

 

*The God Delusion: Dawkins

 

*Breaking the Spell: Dennett

 

*The end of Faith: Harris

 

*god is not Great: Hitchens

 

Thanks for posting books to reference. My spiritual journey has had its ups and downs. I was raised ELCA Lutheran and was extremely committed to my faith, especially as a teenager. I even considered becoming a pastor.

 

In college, one of my boyfriends was atheist. He was very intellectual and pragmatic and gave me lots of books to read to support his point of view. By the summer after my sophomore year, I was having my doubts. These doubts were exacerbated when I asked my mother why she believed what she believed and she said something along the lines of "this is what our family does". That was not a good enough reason for me.

 

That fall I was a passenger in a car accident that left me with a head injury and one of my closest friends dead. It was at that time I came back to Christianity. I was literally surrounded by people caring for me and praying for me. I also had what seemed like a supernatural experience shortly thereafter. I'm not sure about it now, but I suppose that's how a lot of people feel about things that are borderline miraculous.

 

I still consider myself Christian, but a doubting Thomas of sorts. I agree with most of Jesus' teachings, but I have a hard time with all the rejection of my fellow humans (e.g. gay/lesbian/transgender folks) and the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

I feel that if you're not questioning your faith, it is useless. It is static. There is no growth. Might as well stay home.

[gpsings]

Thanks for posting books to reference. My spiritual journey has had its ups and downs. I was raised ELCA Lutheran and was extremely committed to my faith, especially as a teenager. I even considered becoming a pastor.

 

In college, one of my boyfriends was atheist. He was very intellectual and pragmatic and gave me lots of books to read to support his point of view. By the summer after my sophomore year, I was having my doubts. These doubts were exacerbated when I asked my mother why she believed what she believed and she said something along the lines of "this is what our family does". That was not a good enough reason for me.

 

That fall I was a passenger in a car accident that left me with a head injury and one of my closest friends dead. It was at that time I came back to Christianity. I was literally surrounded by people caring for me and praying for me. I also had what seemed like a supernatural experience shortly thereafter. I'm not sure about it now, but I suppose that's how a lot of people feel about things that are borderline miraculous.

 

I still consider myself Christian, but a doubting Thomas of sorts. I agree with most of Jesus' teachings, but I have a hard time with all the rejection of my fellow humans (e.g. gay/lesbian/transgender folks) and the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

I feel that if you're not questioning your faith, it is useless. It is static. There is no growth. Might as well stay home.

:iagree:

[Paisley Hedgehog]

Four Horsemen of the Anti-Apocalypse: Richard Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens

 

*The God Delusion: Dawkins

 

*Breaking the Spell: Dennett

 

*The end of Faith: Harris

 

*god is not Great: Hitchens

 

Thank you for posting this. I am stunned to learn that my library system has all of these :D In my little part of the world, even playing around with the concept of atheism will land you on someone's Prayer List.

[Night Elf]

It is something along 'divine suckitude' to think that people who are victims of genocide/war/famine, etc. are just hapless victims and no god had any way of helping them......or that a god DID and chose not to. How awful!

 

Or that God does it on purpose for punishment. Think about what some religious people say about aids, believing it's a gay disease and is a punishment for that sin.

[Lizzie in Ma]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi

 

Sad but true of all too many Christians.

[elegantlion]

Thank you for posting this. I am stunned to learn that my library system has all of these :D In my little part of the world, even playing around with the concept of atheism will land you on someone's Prayer List.

 

Which is always accompanied by that look of pity and maybe a pat on the hand as they purse their lips and shake their head. :tongue_smilie:

[ourjourneys]

I don't feel further away from God, but I feel far removed from religion. In the last few years I have more Christ-like behavior from those who profess no faith in Christ himself. Makes me wonder...

:iagree:

[astrid]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi

 

Sad but true of all too many Christians.

 

Sheepishly admits, I wanted to post this quote; it's been rolling around in my head for two days now since this thread started, but didn't quite have the courage. Thank you, Lizzie!

 

astrid

[DarlaS]

Thank you for posting this. I am stunned to learn that my library system has all of these :D In my little part of the world, even playing around with the concept of atheism will land you on someone's Prayer List.

 

I am not surprised to find our library has not even one Dawkins title on it's shelves.

[justamouse]

Or that God does it on purpose for punishment. Think about what some religious people say about aids, believing it's a gay disease and is a punishment for that sin.

 

That belief burns me to no end. It infuriates me. Of course what happens when *they* are stricken with something and everyone that was their circle now wonders what sin they have to have been stricken with____.

 

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi

 

Sad but true of all too many Christians.

 

Isn't that the best quote? I have that on my fridge.

 

And the sad part is that--I get we are all not Christ like. Really, I do. Us Christians are not perfect, we've not arrived, we're not close to it. But for the love of God, must we judge and be so hateful? Isn't that Christianity 101?

[BarbecueMom]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi

 

Sad but true of all too many Christians.

 

What's the context of this quote? Did Gandhi really mean he didn't like individual Christians who were minding their own business, or was it the evangelist/missionary types he was referring to?

 

Or was he just using "Christians" when he meant "Westerners"?

 

I'm curious, does anyone believe that most Christians are Christ-like, but it's Christ and his teachings that are dead wrong?

[Lady Florida.]

I started reading the bible with critical thinking skills. That did it for me. It was a slow process, but once you're there you can't go back. I can't decide to believe, not that I want to. I'm much happier now, and don't feel the need for a diety.

 

And I appreciate the sig lines because it lets me know I'm not alone.

[Night Elf]

I'm curious, does anyone believe that most Christians are Christ-like, but it's Christ and his teachings that are dead wrong?

 

In my own very personal experience with the people I've actually encountered in real life, even in church, the opposite is true. The excuse I see most often is that we are sinners by nature and can never be truly Christ-like. Part of me understands what they are saying, but it also seems like an excuse to do things they know are wrong but feel confident God will forgive them because they are Christians. I'm not talking about crimes like our laws handle. I'm talking about being nasty to others like being two-faced, feeling they are above others for their beliefs, gossiping, and making judgements about others. I always wondered what was said about me behind my back because I did have people avoid me. Two reasons I was aware of was my DH not being a church member and that I didn't use the popular Christian curriculum of the day.

 

Let me add that I do not think these things shouldn't be done by Christians specifically. I don't like them done by anyone. I'm talking about the fact that these attitudes are presented as being related to their religion. It just seems that the women I've encountered love to point out how un-Christian some others around them were. I found it very odd and mildly disturbing. It made it feel like a popularity contest to see who was more Christian than the next person. I know not all Christians are that way, but it was a big reason I stopped associating with the church and without others to support me, it became more difficult to hold onto faith.

[delaney]

I have a highly Christian Catholic neighbor who condemns people for not being of her faith all the while she lies, plots, judges....you get what I mean. The fact that she goes to church every Sunday and drops her kids off at CCD makes her a good Christian woman who lives her life well?

Then I have my friend who takes her kids to CCD but rarely goes to church and does it all out of guilt and a feeling of obligation. Well that isn't religion, is it?

Then there is another friend who is so incredibly grounded in her faith that her Facebook posts are always VERY religious and she truly is a good person but waaaaay too much for me in the area of faith if that makes any sense.

I question a lot as well. I feel that the church is full of unneeded ceremony and guilt. A study of history shows all the horrific things done "in the name of God" that make me shake my head. The church has a history of being a political and money hungry power. I just don't know where and when I lost my belief in church and I am not sure that I really don't believe. I was raised to go to church and it is hard to let go of that. I get really annoyed with people that throw everything up to God and say, "well the Lord will provide." Ummm....no he won't if you continue to churn out children on a welfare budget! There are things that I believe God has no hand in and the choices we make are one of them. The universe? I believe that a higher power had a hand in that. The day to day living of the humans who evolved on the earth, no. Sigh. I just can't sort it all out without giving myself a headache.

What I do see on this board are people connected by a common thread-education.We all believe that we are doing the best we can to give our kids our time and love. For me that is what is important. Giving my time unselfishly to my kids is a true act of love and that is a great thing in any belief system, right?:)

[Truscifi]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi

 

Sad but true of all too many Christians.

 

 

My favorite Ghandi quote!

[Joanne]

I don't think of myself as an "ex" Christian. It's not in my signature. I attend graduate school (for an MA in Counseling) at a seminary. I consider myself a spiritual eclectic at the moment.

 

Some of my own journey has played out on these boards. Having spent some time processing and understanding it lately, I can see the deconversion has roots that are decades old.

1. The girl in my "confirmation" class (Presbyterian USA) who declined to continue because it didn't feel true to her. I didn't necessarily *believe* as much as had never heard/seen anyone who consciously didn't go with the expected flow.
   
2. Church leaders and elders in the 1970's deciding for me and my family that no one "would be served" if they acted on the information that I had been molested by a family member.
   
3. The disdain and lack of true care church individuals gave to the wife of a jr. pastor who didn't fit their idea of Pastor's wife.
   
4. How some Christians disdain 12-step recovery because 12-step settings don't insist on Jesus-exclusive spirituality.
   
5. The intensity and poor logic behind reactions to Harry Potter, Mary Poppins, Halloween, Santa......
   
6. The myopic and hyperfocused idea that spanking = discipline and that the Bible talks about spanking in the manner outlined in most common, current books by Christian authors.
   
7. The fact that my church in AZ selected and ordained my xh as an Elder.
   
8. When I was standing in the back of my church with a baby in a sling, rocking him with my hips, reading a brochure on "abuse in Christian families" and was interuppted by an usher telling where the nursery was.
   
9. The Christians for whom "divorce is not an option", related to the Christians who elevate the paper status of a marriage over the relationship between people.
   
10. The Christian leader at a major seminar in AZ who, when asked the question if God answers prayer if it's not Christian, answered "No".
    
11. The Christians who don't see "love the person, hate the sin" as being on the same continuum of *hate* as violence against sexual minorities.
    
12. The absurd "science" embraced by many Christians.
    

 

Many of my concerns/departures have to do with any exclusive minded faith. As such, Islam would be an issue. I'm also anti-evangelistic to an extreme. When I got a gorgeous calendar from a popular, big homeschool supplier. This calendar featured peoples from all over the world; their music, food, cultures. And implored me to pray that they'd come to worship the one true God. :glare:

 

I've read the Bible cover to cover. I've read several dozen books about God/Jesus. And I have landed where I don't see the Holy Christian bible as any different than other myths constructed to explain history, behavior and try to manage unknowns.

 

I can't embrace a God that would suggest war. :confused: I can't embrace a God that would **** anyone to Hell. :confused: I've was never an after-life Christian anyway - eternity with Jesus never motivated me. :) Quality of life *today* did. I also can't embrace a narcissistic God requiring worship and adoration. He's God. Why would he need that?

 

I can not respect a literal interpretation of the Christian Bible. Can't. Tried.for.years. Can't. It seems absurd to me.

 

I can't respect the misinformation many/most Christians have about Pagan religions, Wicca, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

 

I don't believe in the need for "salvation". I don't believe people are born with a "propensity to sin" or "depraved". My hope for people is too great, too positive.

 

I don't believe in "Christian principles" or that the US was founded on them. Universal principles in getting along exist in every major religion and are found in secular settings.

 

I'm guessing many contemporary Christians would call me an ex Christian, or perhaps doubt my having been one at all. I've gotten to where even that is ok, because I can only be upset at that if I believed in the Christian idea of ****ation; I don't. ;)

 

I don't respect Paul from the Christian bible. He's an arrogant mysgynist. :confused:

 

The damage to individuals, nations, and cultures done in the name of organized religion = anti-God to me.

 

All that said, I am fundamentally spiritual in nature. I can't embrace a random universe. I have felt the presense of God. I beleive in some force/being/phenomena beyond myself. I'm willing to consider that it might even be a biophysical reality within individuals that seems like a higher power - but my gut tells me something different.

 

Since shedding the attempt to try to embrace Christian dogma, I have felt liberated, more centered, more connected with God and the universe and more loving.

[Mom-ninja.]

 

Please don't be offended or annoyed. There is a chance that to someone reading these thoughts are new. Now feel free to post without any replies from me. I am going to sleep now. ;)

 

Romans 8:20 "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope"

 

Acts 24:15 "and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

 

Psalm 145:16 "You open your hand; you satisfy the desire of every living thing."

 

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;"

 

Isaiah 65:17 "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind." (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1; Matthew 5:5)

 

 

To the OP, here is the reason most non-Christians don't talk about it. This quote above is a perfect example. You will always have someone start quoting scripture as if that proves everything.

 

Even when you say please don't be annoyed or offended, it doesn't work. Just reverse the role. Can you imagine if every time I saw someone posting about their beliefs, I started quoting Dawkins, Shermer, or Harris at them?

 

This is why people are hesitant to answer questions about not being a Christian. Exactly this.