If you are an "Ex-Christian," may I ask why?

[Nakia]

I'm a Christian, but I can understand why people leave the church. A year and a half ago, I was ready to leave it myself. I'm not talking about renouncing Jesus, but leaving organized religion. I saw all the things that make people not want to be part of the church. Sometimes I shudder to think what Jesus would say if He walked into many of the churches today. I guess I don't have a real point pertaining to this thread, except to say that I understand why people are ex-Christians.

:grouphug: to all of you who have been judged and hurt by people who call themselves Christ followers. May you find peace and truth. :grouphug: again.

[Sahamamama]

You are very welcome. I will caution you though, that many who 'come out' are very angry at first and use 'offensive' language at time.

 

Not a problem, I sometimes do this myself. Sometimes sh!t really is the right word. :D Anyway, before I had kids, I was a social worker helping MICA people (Mentally Ill, Chemically Addicted). I've heard every word there is... :bigear:

 

Actually, I probably shouldn't post this, but this reminds me of the time at the Christian nursing home where I once worked when old Missionary Jones was going senile. He often reverted back to his "pre-conversion" days -- and he was a merchant marine before he became a missionary. Just imagine the verbiage. :001_huh: :lol: All the pretty little social work trainees were in shock!

[freethinkermama]

Audrey, I don't mean it as "bait."

 

I'll try to explain. Every now and then, I think of a couple who used to be married. I was a kid then, but they had me in their wedding. They had three children, and I was sometimes their babysitter. Years went by and we lost touch, but I would hear people mention them, always as a pair: __________ and ___________. They were a match.

 

When I met my own husband, he was a lot like that other husband (happy-go-lucky and round :D), while I was a lot like that other wife (serious and round :glare:). He had no college, I had a grad degree -- same with them. He had a debt, I had savings -- same with them. He hadn't been a Christian long, I had been "born at church" -- same with them. I remember thinking, "Hey, _________ and ________ have been together for 25 years. If they could do it, we can do it.

 

One day, out of the blue, my sister said, "Oh, by the way, ________ and ________ got divorced." :001_huh:

 

Now he is remarried, and she is one of the walking wounded. I have NO idea WHY it happened. Zero clue. I have a mutual friend who does know, but she will not say, because it's "not her story to tell." I have yet to work up the courage to call my old friend and say, "Hi. I know we've been out of touch for, oh, 20 years, but... what happened with you and ________?" I mean, how would I actually do that?

 

So, instead, I wonder what happened. And that, perhaps, is worse than knowing. What if he just stopped loving her? Then I think, That could happen to me. And it goes on and on.... I worry. I tell my own husband, "You'll leave me twenty years from now, just like it happened to __________ and ________." He says no, of course, but I wonder....

 

With people who identify themselves as "ex-Christians" I feel the same way. Not in a gossipy, "Did you hear what happened to ______?" way... It's more like a recognition that, while on the surface of things it might have looked okay, there was something deeper happening in the heart.

 

And do you really think that, because I am still a Christian, I don't have my own serious questions? Do you honestly think that you can tell me why I am asking? I'm not baiting anybody, but your presumption makes me angry.

 

I don't know. I'm sorry, Audrey. I enjoy what you post, mostly, and you are a witch. I had no idea you were ever anything else.

 

I suppose a part of me wonders about the movements inside a person's heart. Why do we move towards or away? From a person, a partner, a career, homeschooling, a way of life, a faith?

 

And why can people post all sorts of things on here lately about EO and RC and ABC and 123, and I'm not supposed to ask this?

 

I think. . . maybe part of it is that the "heart" hasn't changed in the way you think it has. People try to claim that religion is fact, and that if you study history and the Bible an honest seeker will believe. Really, you said it best by intimating that changing religion is in the heart. I think in many cases, deconversion is the triumph of the head over the heart.

 

My deconversion was a matter of the "head". I've just finished a large article on apostates, and most shared this struggle. From pastors to missionaries, to young Bible college students, to Sunday School teachers. It was the struggle of cognative dissonance that was the major player, but compounded by "heart" struggles.

 

(Here I'm referring to Evangelicals). Those who deconvert struggle hugely, and often find deconversion a psychologically taxing process. We come from a belief system that holds a terrifying, eternally torturous place that we may go to if we turn away. We believed that it was better to have a mill stone around our necks than turn anyone away from God. We were told in the Bible that non-believers and apostates were fools and would have eternal wrath poured out on them. One of the men I talked to who deconverted re-read through his favorite apologetics books and still couldn't continue in belief. He prayed, honestly, that God would make him blind if he were real. It went something like this, "Please God. You know I love you and your Son. I'm so afraid of my disbelief. Please, if I'm going the wrong way, I want to know. Please make me blind so I can see. I'd rather be blind for the rest of my life and know You, than be able to see without you." I probably don't need to tell you how that turned out.

 

I don't tell you that story for anyone to call "bad theology" on. What I do want to show is that particularly devout people who leave struggle a lot with it. They feel they're reaching out to reality, but the fear and the magical thinking of their religion sometimes entraps them, and it's difficult to escape.

 

"Lord, let me never, never, outlive my love for Thee."

 

This is not to say they don't become happy again and can't leave meaningful, joyful lives. Most do. But these are also people who once believed they'd be going to hell for making the decision they made. You've got to be pretty convinced that you were wrong to jump off that ship.

[Sahamamama]

I have noticed that people assume that if you do not believe, it's because you are ignorant. I have had soooo many people tell me that if I just read the bible, go to church, pray for whatever, etc, then I will have to believe. I have done all that. I didn't just stumble into my faith. It was a long journey to get here.

Perhaps those who have these siggies are asserting their knowledge and rejection so as to prevent the assumption that they just don't know any better.

 

Yes, I have known Christians like this. I knew one woman who insisted that ANYONE who read through the Bible book called "John" would HAVE to be saved. Huh?

 

A friend of mine had professors in seminary who had read, studied, researched, and translated the Bible for decades, and they did not considered themselves "saved" (or in need of it, for that matter).

[Cherryanne]

I read the Old Testament. 'Nuff said.

[HeathenMom]

-i can't believe any of it on an intellectual level.

-i don't understand why 'gentiles' adopted the mythology of Semitic people when they had a perfectly good tribal mythology of their own.

-i think that the entire philosophy is structured to rob people of their personal power.

 

'nuff said.

[happyvegan]

I was raised Baptist (we were taught that the Bible was THE word of God, not open to interpretation), and sometime in my early 20's I realized that the Bible was turning me off of God (and it was very anti-woman, besides). It's not that I'd never had these thoughts before, but I felt guilty, asked forgiveness for doubting, etc, etc, and thus quashed them. But after having my first child I starting questioning the status quo of medicine, and then ethics, and then I started questioning everything that had ever not seemed quite right to me.

 

I reallllly questioned the Bible. If "THE" God is the one in the Bible, I realized that I didn't want to know him at all. My feelings for and from God didn't seem to jive with what the Bible told me about him. So during this time I figured I'd drop the Bible and it's trappings and just go the direct route.

 

After some years (it was a long and complex journey) I finally realized that I didn't have to live my life with the sole purpose to worship a deity or to earn my spot in the afterlife. I could live for MYSELF. I was important enough to be my own purpose. That was my Best Day Ever.

 

(I remember hearing a non-vegetarian person asking "what's wrong with eating chicken, I mean, what else is a chicken good for?" I said something like, "duh, a chicken is good for being a chicken." I thought about that conversation MANY times over the years, and it helped me draw the conclusion that "Hey, I'm also good for "just" being me. I don't have to have a greater purpose besides just Being." It's funny the things that make an impact on us. :D)

 

I appreciate seeing "ex-Christian" in people's signatures, if only because my de-Christianing was a very important 5 years of my life, and I feel a kinship with those who have also made the journey.

[Sahamamama]

First of all, I cannot imagine telling my husband that he'll leave me eventually because it happened to some other couple. You are not the other couple, however much you might have in common. Why have a negative outlook for your own marriage, just because the other surprised you?

 

You are right about this. I do have to say to myself that we are not them. It's only when my husband and I are having our own conflicts that I have that fear creep up on me. I hate it. I know you're right, we are not them! Aaahhhhhh! Maybe at some point, that truth will sink in. :confused:

 

Secondly, nearly everybody has more going on deeper in the heart than what everyone else sees. I am not an "ex-Christian," but I did demote myself to "Deist" for a few years.

 

Yeah, that was me in my late twenties/early thirties. Ironically, it was around the time I was in seminary, LOL. :tongue_smilie:It was in stages -- first, Is there a God? That was perhaps the deist phase. Second -- Have people of other religions/paths found a way to him? That was what I called (to myself) a comparative religion phase. Third -- What expression of Christianity is most internally consistent and logical? That was the comparative Christianity phase. I did not end up where I started. It was a necessary exploration, but the church I had been a part of would not have approved of that kind of journey. :glare:

 

But it's not as though I bought a bumper sticker and started telling that to everyone. For one thing, I have seen enough to know that there is serious, long-lasting backlash to leaving Christianity. I did not want my kids to be ostracized by friends for example. I kept my faith struggles almost entirely to myself. I am now back to calling myself a Christian, but I know a fair few Christians who, if they grilled me on "what do you believe," would still say I am not a Christian; I doubt too many important things.

 

I was a member on a forum during those few years, a forum dedicated to people who have left Christianity. Reading deconversion stories was eye-opening. Some of the members were extraordinarily knowledgeable about the faith, far more than your typical church member. A running joke we had was this: "What do you call someone who has read the entire Bible? An atheist!" :tongue_smilie: A pretty high number of exChristians have keen intellects and it's just not enough to chalk questions up to "mysteries of the faith."

 

I have also noticed this. In fact, that was part of the problem for me years ago. I grew up in Sunday School, so by the time I was 7 or 8 I knew ALL the Bible stories... how boring it was to sit through them for another 7 or 8 years. In the Teen Bible Class, you could literally fall asleep and still wake up and give "The Answer." It was always tripartite. :D Examples:

• Pray. Read the Bible. Go to church. (Q: How can we be good Christians?)
  
• Pray. Give. Go. (Q: How can we be good missionaries?)
  
• God the Father. God the Son. God the Holy Spirit. (Q: What are the three persons of the Trinity?)
  

And so on. Yawn. I longed to go deeper into understanding the Bible, deeper into a real relationship with God, and farther in seeing how it did or didn't fit into the Big Picture of life, history, the world, other faiths. I was actually TOLD by some of my "teachers" :glare: to "stop stirring the pot and just eat the soup." :001_huh:

 

There are reasons why I came back to Christianity after my hiatus in Deism, but compelling answers to my questions was not one of them.

[Liz CA]

Interesting thread in light of the recent threads regarding Calvinism and Eastern Orthodox. Will read more later.

 

[Sahamamama]

I am a Christian, but I get SOOOO tired of the rhetoric that my life would be perfect if my faith were stronger. Even Christians have problems, real problems. And it's not always a "test of God", sometimes it's plain outright judgment from other that have pushed them to that point.

 

:iagree:This is so common in some parts of the US (maybe everywhere?). I don't know about everywhere, but when I lived in the Midwest, it was palpable. I called it "Victorious Christian Living" -- VCL. It was that form of Christianity which judges all people according to whether or not they are:

 

 

• White

• Male

• Married

• With children

• Healthy

• Gainfully employed

• In a house (not a trailer, apartment, condo, tent, or homeless shelter)

• Law-abiding

• Stable, responsible, coaches Little League (but not on Sunday), votes (Republican), pays taxes (without cheating), obeys the speed limit (especially in school zones), AND takes the garbage out on the correct day of the week, etc., etc., etc.

 

If you are not all of the above, you are disqualified, or at least highly suspect. God forbid you are FEMALE, SINGLE, and SICK. :svengo:You must lack faith.

 

One day, when an older friend was gently telling me, "I don't know why you are not married yet," someone else :glare: shot out, "Ye have not because ye ask not." I can still hear that nasal drone.

 

I tell you, when that man's dear wife got cancer, and he asked me to pray for her, I had all I could do not to spit that line back out at him.

 

There is that version of VCL -- it doesn't take into account any suffering, any sickness that doesn't go away, any poverty, any hardship, any pain, any loss, any obstacle, any opposition, any persecution, any imprisonment, any loss of control, any mental anguish, any punishment that is unjust, any anything that doesn't make Christianity out to be TRIUMPHANT!!!!!!

 

I hate that thing. I like to say it's based on a faulty reading of Romans, while my life is based on a correct application of Job. ;) Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him.

[milovany]

I don't know how to multi-quote

 

Easy peasy: Right next to the button that says "Quote" (below someone's text) is the multi-quote button. It has double quote marks and a plus sign on it. Click that on any posts you want to quote. Then when you hit the Reply button for the thread, it will have all those quotes in there ready to go for you. Just write your words in between the different quotes.

[Sahamamama]

I think. . . maybe part of it is that the "heart" hasn't changed in the way you think it has. People try to claim that religion is fact, and that if you study history and the Bible an honest seeker will believe. Really, you said it best by intimating that changing religion is in the heart. I think in many cases, deconversion is the triumph of the head over the heart.

 

My deconversion was a matter of the "head". I've just finished a large article on apostates, and most shared this struggle. From pastors to missionaries, to young Bible college students, to Sunday School teachers. It was the struggle of cognative dissonance that was the major player, but compounded by "heart" struggles.

 

(Here I'm referring to Evangelicals). Those who deconvert struggle hugely, and often find deconversion a psychologically taxing process. We come from a belief system that holds a terrifying, eternally torturous place that we may go to if we turn away. We believed that it was better to have a mill stone around our necks than turn anyone away from God. We were told in the Bible that non-believers and apostates were fools and would have eternal wrath poured out on them. One of the men I talked to who deconverted re-read through his favorite apologetics books and still couldn't continue in belief. He prayed, honestly, that God would make him blind if he were real. It went something like this, "Please God. You know I love you and your Son. I'm so afraid of my disbelief. Please, if I'm going the wrong way, I want to know. Please make me blind so I can see. I'd rather be blind for the rest of my life and know You, than be able to see without you." I probably don't need to tell you how that turned out.

 

I don't tell you that story for anyone to call "bad theology" on. What I do want to show is that particularly devout people who leave struggle a lot with it. They feel they're reaching out to reality, but the fear and the magical thinking of their religion sometimes entraps them, and it's difficult to escape.

 

"Lord, let me never, never, outlive my love for Thee."

 

This is not to say they don't become happy again and can't leave meaningful, joyful lives. Most do. But these are also people who once believed they'd be going to hell for making the decision they made. You've got to be pretty convinced that you were wrong to jump off that ship.

 

 

Wow, thank you for this! Is there any way you can link that article or give a reference? :bigear:

[4wildberrys]

Well, I am not an "ex-Christian" as stated in the post, but I largely want nothing to do with "christians" or "christian" organizations at this point.

 

 

Wow. This is EXACTLY---EXACTLY where my family of myself and 2 teenagers are at...right now! We ARE still Christians, but the 'christians' in this town have such a distorted sense of what it means that after 3 churches and 3 horrible, hurtful experiences....we're taking a break from being around those 'christians' before our true faith is ruined.

[Sahamamama]

(I remember hearing a non-vegetarian person asking "what's wrong with eating chicken, I mean, what else is a chicken good for?" I said something like, "duh, a chicken is good for being a chicken." I thought about that conversation MANY times over the years, and it helped me draw the conclusion that "Hey, I'm also good for "just" being me. I don't have to have a greater purpose besides just Being." It's funny the things that make an impact on us. :D)

 

I appreciate seeing "ex-Christian" in people's signatures, if only because my de-Christianing was a very important 5 years of my life, and I feel a kinship with those who have also made the journey.

 

1. Loved the chicken story! :lol:

2. I also appreciate seeing XC in the sig, because it lets me know that the journey was taken.

 

And sometimes, as you feel the kinship, I feel the loss. It's as if a brother or sister left the family.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

That's not the normal mindset of many Christians though. I for one don't even believe that mindset is biblical...but that's another thread and can of worms all together.

 

 

Susan

 

 

I also believe that this mindset is 'extra-biblical'. (They are Benny Hinn followers. :glare: )

 

And, yes, it IS a whole other can of worms. After hanging out with xians who were in, shall I say....more traditional churches I began to see just HOW extra-biblical some of the teaching I grew up with really were/are. :001_huh:

 

If you've ever watched the movie Jesus Camp......that was my childhood, right down to the praying over the electrical equipment/praying, almost screeching/screaming in tongues, etc.

[Sahamamama]

Easy peasy: Right next to the button that says "Quote" (below someone's text) is the multi-quote button. It has double quote marks and a plus sign on it. Click that on any posts you want to quote. Then when you hit the Reply button for the thread, it will have all those quotes in there ready to go for you. Just write your words in between the different quotes.

 

Thanks. I always wondered what that button was for. :rofl:

[4wildberrys]

I've got to agree here. I think many "ex-Christians" have arrived at that point perhaps in part because of the hurtful, judgemental, dishonorable actions of Christians in their lives. At least for those ex Christians I know personally, this has been the case. Because of that, their skin may be a bit sensitive to the question especially in a heavily Christian forum such as this.

 

Not sure, just my guess.

 

 

Peace,

astrid

 

Your guess is very good. This is what my 18yo daughter is struggling with right now. The actions of those 'christians' have soured her, hurt her, demoralized her. I try and explain God/Jesus/Faith are TOTALLY different than human run, organized religion. No one denomination has made a difference in this horrible behavior: Evangelical, Baptist, Catholic, Episcopal, Mormon.....all have been awful. But the homeschooling community has really been ugly here, made worse that of course, it's mostly 'christians'. Sign of the Times or small town, small minded ugliness???

[Rosie_0801]

Your guess is very good. This is what my 18yo daughter is struggling with right now. The actions of those 'christians' have soured her, hurt her, demoralized her. I try and explain God/Jesus/Faith are TOTALLY different than human run, organized religion. No one denomination has made a difference in this horrible behavior: Evangelical, Baptist, Catholic, Episcopal, Mormon.....all have been awful. But the homeschooling community has really been ugly here, made worse that of course, it's mostly 'christians'. Sign of the Times or small town, small minded ugliness???

 

 

If we accept that there is a need to be saved, and there is only one way to be saved, there is an 'us and them' mentality built in. When the "thems" are believed to be dangerous, it's no wonder the "us" doesn't want a bar of them. I wouldn't be friendly and welcoming to something I thought was dangerous to me or my family that kept trying to be a part of my/our lives. I rekon a lot of this behaviour stems from fear. A symptom of a deeper issue.

 

Rosie

[milovany]

Thanks. I always wondered what that button was for. :rofl:

 

Lol, my pleasure.

[Mom-ninja.]

Wow, 7 pages and still going?

 

I do have to say thanks to the OP for the thread though. I was starting to feel a bit lonely with the trend of the posts lately.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

When my oldest daughter came out last summer (at age 13) I cried for a week knowing that most of my family either can't know or will totally reject her/us if they do. It makes me sad and angry that, because they see everything through the lens of their religion, they cannot/will not listen/learn anything else. They cannot love her as she is. They can SAY that they would, but when you are saying things like, "love the sinner, hate the sin".....it isn't love. When you hope for change....it isn't acceptance.

 

And, I'm sorry (or not), but when you reject my kid, you lose the chance to be around us. Am I assuming rejection? Sure I am, based on the hateful things they posted about gay people on their Facebook. (I had to un-friend them.)

[Karen in CO]

Yes. People would find offense in me saying, "I feel sorry for you because you are still xian and havn't discovered the truth", but think it's okay to say, "I feel sorry for you that you have gone away from the 'truth' of xianity". :glare:

 

:D yep why is one offensive and the other okay?

[DawnM]

I do plan to read Pagan Christianity this year. I haven't heard of Mere Churchianity, but I will look it up.

 

 

I do classify myself as Christian, but we (our family) have really become disillusioned with church.

 

Dawn

 

I still believe in God, but I really don't like to identify as a christian anymore...and I'm ready to walk away from the church. The discussion has to happen with dh, but I don't think he'll have a problem with it.

I'm just tired of the hypocrisy and faux-fellowship. If someone wants to truly get spiritual, I'm open, but I'm done with the very 'highschoolness' of the church. :(

Has anyone read the book 'Pagan Christianity'? or 'Mere Churchianity'?

These books mirror my feelings at the moment.

[Mejane]

And, I'm sorry (or not), but when you reject my kid, you lose the chance to be around us. Am I assuming rejection? Sure I am, based on the hateful things they posted about gay people on their Facebook. (I had to un-friend them.)

 

That's just truly pathetic and totally their loss, but I'm sorry for your/her hurt.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

:D yep why is one offensive and the other okay?

 

 

because the group that is dominant refuses to acknowledge that they are dominant and with that dominance comes privilege.

[freethinkermama]

Wow, thank you for this! Is there any way you can link that article or give a reference? :bigear:

 

Howdy,

I'll be happy to share once it's either printed or posted. It's with an editor right now and he's passing it through his print or online folks to see where they want it.

 

Fingers crossed!

 

T.

[mo2]

 

And, I'm sorry (or not), but when you reject my kid, you lose the chance to be around us.

 

 

I'm sorry for your daughter. I would react the same way you are.

[Desert Rat]

I have noticed that people assume that if you do not believe, it's because you are ignorant. I have had soooo many people tell me that if I just read the bible, go to church, pray for whatever, etc, then I will have to believe. I have done all that. I didn't just stumble into my faith. It was a long journey to get here.

Perhaps those who have these siggies are asserting their knowledge and rejection so as to prevent the assumption that they just don't know any better.

 

After 7 years at a Lutheran School and 18 years of mandated church attendence (Methodist), I moved away from the church. Last year, (I was 38) my mom said that she thinks I just haven't studied Christianity enough. :ack2:

 

I mourn my lack of Christianity. Today, the boys and I covered Handel as part of our history lesson (SOTW3, Ch. 14). We listened to his Messiah. I was moved to tears as much for the beauty of it as for the idea that others find strength and comfort listening to his beautiful music about their God. That faith in Christianity just isn't something I can feel, not for want or lack of trying.

 

For me, my seperation with the church was mostly caused by hypocricy and intolerance. I STAY away because I can't believe in a all powerful God, in any form. However, I think Jesus was a brilliant prophet. I teach his meditations along with Buddha, Mohummed (sp?), Confucius, and many more. Anyone who teaches peace and understanding is okay in my book.

 

For me, Ghandi's thoughts say it all. "I love your Christ but I do not love your Christians."

 

I appreciate the diversity and kindness of this forum. It is comfort to me to know so many good souls exist.

[freethinkermama]

I have noticed that people assume that if you do not believe, it's because you are ignorant. I have had soooo many people tell me that if I just read the bible, go to church, pray for whatever, etc, then I will have to believe. I have done all that. I didn't just stumble into my faith. It was a long journey to get here.

Perhaps those who have these siggies are asserting their knowledge and rejection so as to prevent the assumption that they just don't know any better.

 

Yes, I can see that.

 

I have a friend who has this under her profile picture on her FB. "'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.' So what are you waiting for? Believe!"

 

Really? Can one just "believe"!

 

Believe that Abraham Lincoln was a space alien! (Did it work?) :) :tongue_smilie:

[Jenny in Atl]

Not sure I really ever was a "believing" Xtian. I went to church, went through the motions, did study groups, etc. At one point I really wanted to believe, but the whole "story" just fell flat, unbelievable for me. And, unlike a number of others I worshiped with, who like the company, the fellowship but didn't believe in the faith as 100% true, I really saw no point, if it was exclusionary. So far no other faith has rung true either, so it's not just not Christianity that I doubt get, it's all the others as well.

 

I guess, I'm happy being nothing.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

 

I have a friend who has this under her profile picture on her FB. "'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.' So what are you waiting for? Believe!"

 

Really? Can one just "believe"!

 

Believe that Abraham Lincoln was a space alien! (Did it work?) :) :tongue_smilie:

 

Ah, Pascal's Wager.

 

I had a friend who used to say, "believe, just in case it's true!" I said,"that is not belief, that is hedging your bets". It isn't belief, it becomes an insurance policy that you don't really think you will ever need.

 

I can't just decide to believe or I would have for those many, MANY years that I wasted trying.

[keptwoman]

I moved away gradually, first I questioned the concept of a "loving god" doing and saying the stuff "he" did and said. And allowing people to endure the misery of wars and famines, cancer and other horrible illnesses. I basically decided that if THAT was god, I didn't want a bar of it.

For me personally, yes I saw hypocrasy and crazy christians, and church nonsense, but it wasn't any of that. It was simply that one can't just believe in what one doesn't believe. Once I started questioning the value in that kind of god of "love" I started questioning that he existed at all, and I realised that I did not have any inherent belief. I don't think belief is a choice, you either do or you don't.

 

Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion is a good place to start.

DS got it for Christmas, I'm looking forward to reading it after him.

 

I think it is mostly about one finding, accepting and submitting to you what believe is the truth and living one's life so that it is fufilling to you.....just some of my thoughts, sorry if it is a little long winded.

ITA.

 

But she wrote a couple posts about how she was a Christian -- used to spend the summers on the beach witnessing to people! -- and now she's an atheist, and much happier.

I am now categorically much happier since I shed the remnants of my Christian upbringing. I get more and more adamantly atheist, and more and more relaxed and happy about life and the future.

 

 

Actually, I probably shouldn't post this, but this reminds me of the time at the Christian nursing home where I once worked when old Missionary Jones was going senile. He often reverted back to his "pre-conversion" days -- and he was a merchant marine before he became a missionary. Just imagine the verbiage. :001_huh: :lol: All the pretty little social work trainees were in shock!

I have nursed many people with dementia, and without a shadow of a lie, the ones who were most foul mouthed and voiced the worst thoughts were those who were very religious before they got dementia. Nuns were the worst, which makes me sad actually. I truely believe that people with dementia will reveal more about what they really think without the vestiges of respectability bothering them.

 

I appreciate seeing "ex-Christian" in people's signatures, if only because my de-Christianing was a very important 5 years of my life, and I feel a kinship with those who have also made the journey.

:iagree:

[funschooler5]

Interesting thread! I enjoy reading these threads about religion and beliefs.

 

I hope I don't offend anyone with my story, this is just what I felt at the time, and how I came to believe as I do.

 

I have been an atheist since I was a teenager. From ages 8-16, I considered myself a Christian, though my family never belonged to a church (my parents went to church when they were kids, but never as adults). I went to several different churches with friends, and my parents encouraged that. They always told me that they wanted me to decide for myself what I believed. I heard about accepting Jesus into your heart (from different churches and a few TV shows I watched), and I did that at age 8, but didn't feel any different. I did it a few more times over the years, and when I became a teen, I started to get scared and wonder why I wasn't feeling anything when I did this. I finally made a deal with God: I would read the bible and pray every night, I could just feel something, anything to make me believe He was real. I did this for a year and a half, reading the bible, and taking notes on notebook paper. I had pages and pages of notes. Still, nothing. But as I was reading, I kept finding things in the bible that disturbed me. The one that bothered me the most was when Abraham was getting ready to sacrifice Isaac...I don't know, everything about that story just bothered me, and I eventually realized I didn't want to have anything to do with religion. Eventually, I started to question if the events in the bible could have even actually happened.

 

Then I started doing some reading. I read Bertrand Russell's "Why I'm Not a Christian," and it was the first time someone had pinpointed my beliefs. Everything just made sense at that point. It's kind of hard to explain.

 

My beliefs haven't changed over the years. I know that I was completely sincere in my Christian beliefs as a child, even though I didn't belong to a church. I think if there is a God, He would have spoken to me at that point in my life.

[Halcyon]

I haven't read this whole thread (yet!) but I just wanted to say that in many ways I consider myself a (wavering) Christian...but most Christians wouldn't agree. The reason for the wavering? I am on the fence about the existence of God. And assuming there IS a god or gods, I believe there are many paths: Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, and all the myriad other religions and beliefs (a few of which I've studied at one time or another). So right off the bat, most church-going Christians around here would look at me askance. I don't believe that Jesus is "the only way". Not at all. And I actually find it an arrogant point of view, to be honest.

 

I also believe very, very strongly in abortion rights and rights for gay, lesbian and transgendered people. I find the viewpoint that such people are committing "sins" to be utterly repugnant, judgmental and condescending, and most Christians in the area I live believe that these "choices" are "sinful". It wasn't that way at my old church in NYC, and maybe moving to the South has opened my eyes to what Christianity really teaches. Or maybe I just haven't found the "right" church for me (I actually don't like the idea of "church shopping". I mean, if a Christian is a Christian is a Christian, then I should feel accepted wherever I go, right? But I don't, because there is a lot of dogma and hate out there.)

 

I have been reading "the four horsemen" books, and finding much to agree with. At the same time, I love reading CS Lewis and Oswald Chambers.

 

Maybe I'm too peripatetic to label ;)

Edited January 6, 2011 by Halcyon

[Peela]

 

I suppose a part of me wonders about the movements inside a person's heart. Why do we move towards or away? From a person, a partner, a career, homeschooling, a way of life, a faith?

 

 

Because life is change. Nothing ever stays the same. Even if you are a Christian, I hope you have grown and matured over the years, and you have continued to grown and question your spirituality, even if the larger context is a Christian one. I hope you didnt just decide to be a Christian and stop there, as if thats it. For some people, growing and maturing takes them into new territory...what they used to believe no longer holds water for them. And every growth involves loss on some level- for some it is the loss of an identity as a Christian.

I was never a Christian although I was sent to Sunday School and a Christian Girls School. It never held water for me.

And...no marriage, no belief, nothing on this earth is 100% secure. Its best to make peace with that.

[elegantlion]

 

I have been reading "the four horsemen" books, and finding much to agree with. At the same time, I love reading CS Lewis and Oswald Chambers.

 

Maybe I'm too peripatetic to label ;)

 

What four horsemen books are you referring to?

[Halcyon]

What four horsemen books are you referring to?

 

Four Horsemen of the Anti-Apocalypse: Richard Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens

 

*The God Delusion: Dawkins

 

*Breaking the Spell: Dennett

 

*The end of Faith: Harris

 

*god is not Great: Hitchens

[ereks mom]

I am a Christian, but I get SOOOO tired of the rhetoric that my life would be perfect if my faith were stronger. Even Christians have problems, real problems.

 

:iagree: I think that the "prosperity gospel" is one of the worst movements that ever took place within the church.

[elegantlion]

Four Horsemen of the Anti-Apocalypse: Richard Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens

 

*The God Delusion: Dawkins

 

*Breaking the Spell: Dennett

 

*The end of Faith: Harris

 

*god is not Great: Hitchens

 

Thank you!

[Carol in Cal.]

After my brother died (and on the way to the funeral) I kept hearing,

"He just wouldn't embrace his healing". :001_huh: Yeah, it couldn't at ALL be that a god could not heal him from this disease from which NO ONE has survived, it must be the dying man's fault. I sat there thinking, "and you have the nerve to wonder why I don't want any part of this religion?!"

 

This is horrible. I am so sorry.

[Liz CA]

This is horrible. I am so sorry.

 

Right there with Carol! Please, please don't think all Christians believe this rubbish. I, for one, don't.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

There is that version of VCL -- it doesn't take into account any suffering, any sickness that doesn't go away, any poverty, any hardship, any pain, any loss, any obstacle, any opposition, any persecution, any imprisonment, any loss of control, any mental anguish, any punishment that is unjust, any anything that doesn't make Christianity out to be TRIUMPHANT!!!!!!

 

I hate that thing. I like to say it's based on a faulty reading of Romans, while my life is based on a correct application of Job. ;) Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him.

 

I hate it, too.

 

It is profoundly and deeply offensive to me.

 

It is also one of the most anti-Biblical, transparently false distortions of Christianity around.

 

What ABOUT Job?

What about Paul?

What about Peter?

What about the thief/insurrectionist on the cross next door?

What about Jesus, even? Hello?

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Right there with Carol! Please, please don't think all Christians believe this rubbish. I, for one, don't.

 

 

Oh, I know. And, believe me, after meeting some wonderful homeschooling moms in my area.....I understand more NOW that you aren't all like 'that'.

 

And, I agree with a pp re: the prosperity gospel. I think it has done HORRIBLE harm to the religion. My family is still firmly enmeshed in it and if you present them with FACTS re: Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, etc. they will dismiss it as "liberal propaganda". :001_huh:

[justamouse]

After my brother died (and on the way to the funeral) I kept hearing,

"He just wouldn't embrace his healing". :001_huh: Yeah, it couldn't at ALL be that a god could not heal him from this disease from which NO ONE has survived, it must be the dying man's fault. I sat there thinking, "and you have the nerve to wonder why I don't want any part of this religion?!"

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

The reason I stopped calling myself a Christian for a long time was that I had to always add a disclaimer, "Not one of those kinds."

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I hate it, too.

 

It is profoundly and deeply offensive to me.

 

It is also one of the most anti-Biblical, transparently false distortions of Christianity around.

 

What ABOUT Job?

What about Paul?

What about Peter?

What about the thief/insurrectionist on the cross next door?

What about Jesus, even? Hello?

 

I have tried those arguments and I hear, ''but, Jesus was so rich that they cast lots for his garments!" Hmmm, I guess my take on it was that the guards wanted his clothes because they were souveniers, but what do I know?

 

To me, the whole prosperity gospel/name it and claim it/confess it and possess it nonsense is rooted in the Puritanical Ethic: The "HAVES" have because they were blessed by god and the ''HAVE NOTS'' have little or nothing because they have been cursed by god.

 

So, it stands to reason that they now look down on those with less, it's all part of that same mindset.

[Nakia]

I have tried those arguments and I hear, ''but, Jesus was so rich that they cast lots for his garments!" Hmmm, I guess my take on it was that the guards wanted his clothes because they were souveniers, but what do I know?

 

To me, the whole prosperity gospel/name it and claim it/confess it and possess it nonsense is rooted in the Puritanical Ethic: The "HAVES" have because they were blessed by god and the ''HAVE NOTS'' have little or nothing because they have been cursed by god.

 

So, it stands to reason that they now look down on those with less, it's all part of that same mindset.

 

WHOA! Some people think Jesus was rich? He was homeless; He owned nothing! The reason the guards cast lots for his clothes was to mock him, and yes, to have souvenirs. My best friend goes to a "name it and claim it" type of church. Rubbish, I say.

 

Remember when I took a "medication holiday" as Kim calls it because a so-called Christian friend had me convinced if I prayed more, I would be cured of bipolar disorder. Again, rubbish.

 

Anyway, I digress, but yeah I get it. And I don't like it.

[Carol in Cal.]

I have tried those arguments and I hear, ''but, Jesus was so rich that they cast lots for his garments!" Hmmm, I guess my take on it was that the guards wanted his clothes because they were souveniers, but what do I know?

 

To me, the whole prosperity gospel/name it and claim it/confess it and possess it nonsense is rooted in the Puritanical Ethic: The "HAVES" have because they were blessed by god and the ''HAVE NOTS'' have little or nothing because they have been cursed by god.

 

So, it stands to reason that they now look down on those with less, it's all part of that same mindset.

 

Holy cow. This is worse than I thought.

 

"Foxes have holes, and owls have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay His head." Rich. Right.

 

Nope, actually the clothes thing was that cloth was fairly valuable. Jesus was wearing what were probably the only clothes that He had. The outer cloak would be your coat, your dust protection, and your blanket at night. That's why in the OT it talks about giving a guy his cloak/coat back when night falls, even if you claim ownership of it because of a loan--the guy would freeze otherwise. Simple humanity in a simple, poor culture. So anyway, the Bible itself, a primary source if there ever was one, says that they cast lots because Jesus' mantle had no seams. That meant that it was hard to pull apart without it ravelling. So they decided that one should get it instead of dividing it up.

 

Maybe it IS because of the Puritans, but I suspect that it's mostly wishful thinking and also that telling people what they want to hear really pays off here below.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Yep, it's evil false doctrine with big fancy hair.

 

You can even pinpoint the exact dates in which false prophecies were made ("Jesus Christ will appear physically with me on stage"....."Fidel Castro will die in the 90's....") and they will say, "ohwell, god probably told him something different later". uh-huh. :001_huh:

 

This is one of my all-time favourite quotes, "Time is the enemy of the false prophet". Don't know who said it, but it's true.

[astrid]

Yup, that pretty much sums it up for me, too. I'm done subjecting myself and my family to the behavior of such Christians.

 

astrid

[astrid]

How utterly tragic.

 

My brother and only sibling was killed in an auto accident when he was 17 and I was 18. My parents dealt with it, and though we speak of Joel often, it's always happily, remembering good times of recounting funny stories.

 

One day a neighbor was complaining to my mother about how her son had just come out to the family, and now she'd "lost him" because she just cannot be around him knowing his lifestyle, and about how he was "dead to her now."

 

My mother got angrier than I've ever seen her, and told the woman in no uncertain terms that she was being completely ridiculous, because her son was ALIVE, regardless of his lifestyle, he was THERE. She could put her arms around him, hug him, love him, and watch him grow and mature. She continued, but you get the point. Mom and the neighbor woman do not speak, but the poor guy is still shunned from her house. What a sad, sad waste.

 

I just don't get it.

 

astrid