justamouse Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Patty Joanna shared something with me this morning, in which this short piece really stuck out to me. I'll copy it here, maybe it will be of some comfort to you. It was to me. Fr. Sophrony said he doesn’t advocate too much introspection even for monastic’s or his other spiritual children. “You know, we pick and poke away, hunting for every little mistake or thought, and we make ourselves crazy, all for nothing. It becomes an obsession, and really makes a wall between us and God, leaving no room for grace to act. Yes, we must know in general our sins, and that we are sinful and deluded beings, but we must never lose sight of the fact that we come to God in prayer, not to be obsessed with our sins, but to find His mercy. Otherwise the devil takes everything away from us…joy, hope, peace, love…and leaves us nothing but this obsession with our mistakes. That is not repentance. That is neurosis.†wow, that is so true and what I was going to say but worded in a different (and much better) way. *I* think that what happens when we strive is that the focus is still on US. It's still self centered focus. It's not God focused. And, even if we were capable of judging ourselves, we don't, and are incapable, of seeing what God sees in us. So we don't know the truth of ourselves. So it's much healthier to keep our focus on God, and the rest will take care of itself, in His time as we journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 My understanding is that works have nothing to do with getting to heaven (or being saved) because that is up to God. But works have a lot to do with learning to be like Christ. Our culture has a disturbing fixation with salvation but we cannot know the salvation of anyone, even ourselves. IMO the idea that we can know who is saved is one of the most dangerous beliefs. In everyday life and in world history that idea has been destructive. There is only one Judge and it is not us. The only person we are suppose to compare ourselves to is Christ. this so resonates we me. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlockOfSillies Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 My pastor has said in the past that sometimes people will walk away from the faith because times get hard and somewhere, they've been sold a bill of goods that if you become a Christian, life is all rainbows and kittens. It's not. Wrong, wrong, wrong! It's UNICORNS! Look it up -- it's in 2 Hezekiah. Psh. Heretic. :lol: OK, sidetracking over. I just couldn't help myself.:auto: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlockOfSillies Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Well, remember that even the Apostle Paul had a "thorn in his side" that plagued him. And finally, he learned that God's grace was sufficient for him. The problem didn't go away; he just realized that God was already there with him in the midst of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 Patty Joanna shared something with me this morning, in which this short piece really stuck out to me. I'll copy it here, maybe it will be of some comfort to you. It was to me. Fr. Sophrony said he doesn’t advocate too much introspection even for monastic’s or his other spiritual children. “You know, we pick and poke away, hunting for every little mistake or thought, and we make ourselves crazy, all for nothing. It becomes an obsession, and really makes a wall between us and God, leaving no room for grace to act. Yes, we must know in general our sins, and that we are sinful and deluded beings, but we must never lose sight of the fact that we come to God in prayer, not to be obsessed with our sins, but to find His mercy. Otherwise the devil takes everything away from us…joy, hope, peace, love…and leaves us nothing but this obsession with our mistakes. That is not repentance. That is neurosis.†See this I agree with!!! I was having a difficult time reconciling this with some of the things I was reading. Wonderful ;). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 My understanding is that works have nothing to do with getting to heaven (or being saved) because that is up to God. But works have a lot to do with learning to be like Christ. Our culture has a disturbing fixation with salvation but we cannot know the salvation of anyone, even ourselves. IMO the idea that we can know who is saved is one of the most dangerous beliefs. In everyday life and in world history that idea has been destructive. There is only one Judge and it is not us. The only person we are suppose to compare ourselves to is Christ. I have to be honest and say I'm having a total "duh" moment. I know others were trying to get this across with the relationship illustrations, but I still had a difficult time separating it from "salvation" or "right standing". Thank you for being able to phrase this in such away that gets across to me ;). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Patty Joanna shared something with me this morning, in which this short piece really stuck out to me. I'll copy it here, maybe it will be of some comfort to you. It was to me. Fr. Sophrony said he doesn’t advocate too much introspection even for monastic’s or his other spiritual children. “You know, we pick and poke away, hunting for every little mistake or thought, and we make ourselves crazy, all for nothing. It becomes an obsession, and really makes a wall between us and God, leaving no room for grace to act. Yes, we must know in general our sins, and that we are sinful and deluded beings, but we must never lose sight of the fact that we come to God in prayer, not to be obsessed with our sins, but to find His mercy. Otherwise the devil takes everything away from us…joy, hope, peace, love…and leaves us nothing but this obsession with our mistakes. That is not repentance. That is neurosis.†That really resonates with me. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandaceC Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Thank You for sharing about the podcasts, last night I listened to the 2 labeled his conversion story. Very good stuff! Now that I know the whole thing is a series I am going to go back and start at the beginning. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Thank You for sharing about the podcasts, last night I listened to the 2 labeled his conversion story. Very good stuff! Now that I know the whole thing is a series I am going to go back and start at the beginning. :) Excellent! We should discuss it. Anyone else game? This is the one: http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/eastwest You have to go to the bottom of the page and find "Display" then choose "All" then start at the bottom. There are 69 episodes in all. It's so good! :D It's hard to homeschool with so much good stuff to listen to. I've been squeezing it in after school while I make dinner, and in the evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 Excellent! We should discuss it. Anyone else game? This is the one: http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/eastwest You have to go to the bottom of the page and find "Display" then choose "All" then start at the bottom. There are 69 episodes in all. It's so good! :D It's hard to homeschool with so much good stuff to listen to. I've been squeezing it in after school while I make dinner, and in the evening. I listened to the first one of Scripture and Tradition during my workout this morning :) It was good! Maybe we can start a thread on the Exploring Orthodoxy group! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I listened to the first one of Scripture and Tradition during my workout this morning :) It was good! Maybe we can start a thread on the Exploring Orthodoxy group! If people are game, I'll start a thread for it there and accept anyone's request to join for the discussion. I would like to make sure at least one or two other EO people are willing to do this as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I listened to the first one of Scripture and Tradition during my workout this morning :) It was good! Maybe we can start a thread on the Exploring Orthodoxy group! Since being involved in the social groups I've noticed that discussions are difficult because there are a limited number of words. Do you think that would hamper our discussion? It does seem more appropriate for a social group though. :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Since being involved in the social groups I've noticed that discussions are difficult because there are a limited number of words. Do you think that would hamper our discussion? It does seem more appropriate for a social group though. :confused: Just continue in the next post ;) I think it's best in the Social Group area because then we can control the issue of trolling and those that just want to toot their own church's horn once in awhile. This way we can keep it on track. PS, I started a thread there ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy2BaMom Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 ...is Greek Orthodoxy the same as Eastern Orthodoxy? I drove by a Greek Orthodox church this morning and this thread made me curious..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 which thread would the discussion be in? The social group you started before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 which thread would the discussion be in? The social group you started before? It's in the Exploring Eastern Orthodoxy group. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 ...is Greek Orthodoxy the same as Eastern Orthodoxy? I drove by a Greek Orthodox church this morning and this thread made me curious..... Yes. There are various jurisdictions. Those that immigrated to this country built churches under their jurisdiction/Patriarch. But the jurisdictions (Greek, Russian, Antiochian, etc) are all part of the same Church. Some of the parishes maintain a bit of an ethnic flavour moreso than others. I'm part of a Greek parish, but though half the Church is Greek, there are plenty of other people there including an Eritrean group (Oriental Orthodox) that worship with us, converts of all ethnicities, and even those that are from other jurisdictions but the Greek Church is closer to their homes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 It's in the Exploring Eastern Orthodoxy group. :D can I join that one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 can I join that one? found y'all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) nevermind. :) Edited January 5, 2011 by momoflaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I'm arriving a bit late to the party, but wanted to say that I've really enjoyed reading this thread. I also thought I would point out a book that might be helpful. I feel a little awkward mentioning it, since I haven't actually read it myself! Coming to Orthodoxy from Buddhism, it didn't seem all that relevant for me personally. But I have heard former Protestants in my parish speak very highly of this book, so I thought it might be helpful to some here. It's called The Way: What Every Protestant Should Know About the Orthodox Church and it's by Clark Carlton. Available here: http://www.archangelsbooks.com/proddetail.asp?prod=REGCARLTC-02 The author has another book called "The Truth" that is designed for Roman Catholics interested in or entering the Orthodox Church, just in case anyone out there wants to know. :001_smile: And Simka, I thought you might particularly be interested in this one: http://www.archangelsbooks.com/proddetail.asp?prod=REGCARLTC-04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I would like to make sure at least one or two other EO people are willing to do this as well. I am willing. I listened to those podcasts a year and a half ago or so, when I was first inquiring about Orthodoxy. I would love to listen to them again. But I will point out that even a year and a half in the Orthodox Church (and only three months since baptism and chrismation) still makes me a baby in the faith! There is so much learning and growing I have yet to do - I still feel like a toddler taking those first tentative steps. So I probably won't be very helpful. In fact, I may have more questions than answers. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I am willing. I listened to those podcasts a year and a half ago or so, when I was first inquiring about Orthodoxy. I would love to listen to them again. But I will point out that even a year and a half in the Orthodox Church (and only three months since baptism and chrismation) still makes me a baby in the faith! There is so much learning and growing I have yet to do - I still feel like a toddler taking those first tentative steps. So I probably won't be very helpful. In fact, I may have more questions than answers. :D Sometimes I get the feeling that I would have a lot of unlearning to do if I were to join. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Sometimes I get the feeling that I would have a lot of unlearning to do if I were to join. Yes, I am working on unlearning as well as learning. Good point! :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsBasil Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Sometimes I get the feeling that I would have a lot of unlearning to do if I were to join. I have been inquiring and exploring since May. I go to Liturgy most Sundays, try to make the week day Liturgies when possible and affordable, and meet with my priest about every month. I've read, discussed, questioned, and read more. I haven't been baptized into the church and have told my priest I intend to take my time and he's all for that. I am still learning and unlearning so much, it's a process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Sometimes I get the feeling that I would have a lot of unlearning to do if I were to join. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) You know, I was just PMing with someone and I said something to her that I think I really ought to share here. I know I'm very enthusiastic about Orthodoxy -- it has truly changed our lives and our faith forever and in a positive way. I'm still so, so thankful that (number one) someone said something to us about the Orthodox faith and that we started checking it out, and (number two) that we had a parish that we could attend. Our one year anniversary of Holy Baptism is this coming Sunday. And here's what I said to the other gal in PM: I *will* say though -- and I think I should say this on the board because I tend to make it sound all peachy-keen-rosy -- becoming Orthodox has been the hardest thing we've ever done. In a GOOD way, just ... truly. It really makes sense, you know? It's part of leaving the "land of shallow wells" I guess; travail, holding on no matter what, etc. We have had to deal with very hard situations (both internally and externally) -- some of which we would have dealt with anyway, but the way we feel called to respond as Orthodox Christians is tougher in some respects. The other things, those that are a result of our faith, have brought tears, frustration, hard work, dying to self, etc. HARD stuff, but good too (because "all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose"). Edited January 6, 2011 by milovaný Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happygrrl Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Has anyone read Through Western Eyes by Robert Letham? The review I read indicated that it was pretty balanced in showing what Orthodoxy could teach those of the Reformed Protestant perspective, what the Reformed could teach the Orthodox, how the 2 are different, and how they are the same, but the review was from a Reformed perspective. I'm wondering what the Orthodox take would be? I have that book, and I really can't recommend it. I haven't seen or read that book. One that I enjoyed was Common Ground: An Introduction to Eastern Christianity For the American Christian, although it doesn't address Reformed theology specifically. I believe it was written by someone who was Orthodox at one point, but may not be now. Happygrrl read Eastern Orthodox Christianity: A Western Perspective recently and gave a favorable review on the Exploring Orthodox Chrstianity social group. HTH! Thanks Milovany! The book I am reading is actually "Light from the Christian East" by James Payton . It is now my 'go to' book to hand to Protestant friends; for serious inquirers the next book is the one by Bajis that Milovany mentioned. I read that book constantly for a year! I did not really like the Clark Carlton books as it seemed like he was both simplistic and a little strident in tone. Perhaps that was just my place at that time :) I am out of state right now, so not checking in too often. Will join in the fun soon! Love to all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Wrong, wrong, wrong! It's UNICORNS! Look it up -- it's in 2 Hezekiah. Psh. Heretic. :lol: OK, sidetracking over. I just couldn't help myself.:auto: I reject your theology and substitute my own! RAINBOWS AND KITTENS, DANGIT! RAINBOWS AND KITTENS! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) Thank you for posting this. The same general idea has been much on my mind. Orthodoxy involves a great deal of struggle, of self-emptying (kenosis). The thing is, you do it with other people, together. But it's not an easy road. Before you read too many books or listen to too many podcasts, get to a parish church, and start to experience the Orthodox life. I'm asking in great sincerity--you that are Orthodox on the board, you all seem so honestly devoted and that resonates with me, but don't all religions have people that go through the motions? Cradle Orthodox that just show up on Sunday and go through the service with no inner conviction? I'm listening to the podcast of 10 things I wish I knew -- and he is talking so much about community, how your walk is journey with other believers and I so agree which is why I left the institutional church and have been homechurching- and how you really can't practice without other believers--but the reason I left IC was because the 'religion' of church had overtaken and people were there because they thought they should be and there was no relationship. Is this different in the EO church? Or are you all anomalies? This is so important to me because these podcasts are answering -are saying everything that I've been looking for, the true priesthood of the people (not the priest), the community, the liturgy, the growing in relationship--this is what I'm looking for, but I'm afraid I'm going to be sold a lemon. That I'll get there and it will just be empty like so many other places I've visited. Edited January 6, 2011 by justamouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I'm asking in great sincerity--you that are Orthodox on the board, you all seem so honestly devoted and that resonates with me, but don't all religions have people that go through the motions? Cradle Orthodox that just show up on Sunday and go through the service with no inner conviction? I'm listening to the podcast of 10 things I wish I knew -- and he is talking so much about community, how your walk is journey with other believers and I so agree which is why I left the institutional church and have been homechurching- and how you really can't practice without other believers--but the reason I left IC was because the 'religion' of church had overtaken and people were there because they thought they should be and there was no relationship. Is this different in the EO church? Or are you all anomalies? This is so important to me because these podcasts are answering -are saying everything that I've been looking for, the true priesthood of the people (not the priest), the community, the liturgy, the growing in relationship--this is what I'm looking for, but I'm afraid I'm going to be sold a lemon. That I'll get there and it will just be empty like so many other places I've visited. Of course we have those that go through the motions or are there because of some family/cultural expectation of them! People are human after all :) However, we don't sit around trying to figure out who is who and judging them. It's between them, their priest, and God (and sometimes between them and God until they choose to include their priest). You also never know when something may click with them and it may become more than just motions to them. Like many faiths, we've had people go off, marry outside of the Church or simply quit going for a time, merely to come back later with their spouse/children and become part of the Church again. I have a few friends like this, mostly cradle, that will tell you that at one time, due to whatever reasons, they simply took their faith for granted and later it dawned on them that there was more to it and they needed to "own" it. Sometimes people own it young, sometimes it doesn't click till they've matured a bit, sometimes not till after they've married, and sometimes not till after they've had children. Each person's journey is different. We don't try to force children to "own" it by a "sinners' prayer", "hitting the altar", or "asking Jesus into their heart" by age 6 or 8 or 12 (all references from when I was growing up...in a church where that was the only goal of the children's ministry and once that was done, they felt they had "done their job"). It's a life long continuing journey. We all wander in one way or another...some more obvious than others, some merely distracted by whatever life or circumstances they are facing, etc. But that's not the end of the road. And because of that, we can't judge one person to be more "on the road" than another. Again, sometimes we *think* *we* are fully on the road until something brings us to our knees and we look back and see where we've wandered. The whole take the log out of your own eye bit...I need to focus on my own weaknesses more than focusing on the weakness of my neighbour. Instead, I'm called to LOVE my neighbour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Mommaduck, I want to quote your whole post but it's big. *g* OK, that I can deal with. :001_smile: I'm finding that most of the problems I had with the protestant religions are not a part of EO. And my personal struggles with those doctrines and my talking about them and questioning them won't be a problem there. :D That in and of itself is a paradigm shift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 6, 2011 Author Share Posted January 6, 2011 Of course we have those that go through the motions or are there because of some family/cultural expectation of them! People are human after all :) However, we don't sit around trying to figure out who is who and judging them. It's between them, their priest, and God (and sometimes between them and God until they choose to include their priest). You also never know when something may click with them and it may become more than just motions to them. Like many faiths, we've had people go off, marry outside of the Church or simply quit going for a time, merely to come back later with their spouse/children and become part of the Church again. I have a few friends like this, mostly cradle, that will tell you that at one time, due to whatever reasons, they simply took their faith for granted and later it dawned on them that there was more to it and they needed to "own" it. Sometimes people own it young, sometimes it doesn't click till they've matured a bit, sometimes not till after they've married, and sometimes not till after they've had children. Each person's journey is different. We don't try to force children to "own" it by a "sinners' prayer", "hitting the altar", or "asking Jesus into their heart" by age 6 or 8 or 12 (all references from when I was growing up...in a church where that was the only goal of the children's ministry and once that was done, they felt they had "done their job"). It's a life long continuing journey. We all wander in one way or another...some more obvious than others, some merely distracted by whatever life or circumstances they are facing, etc. But that's not the end of the road. And because of that, we can't judge one person to be more "on the road" than another. Again, sometimes we *think* *we* are fully on the road until something brings us to our knees and we look back and see where we've wandered. The whole take the log out of your own eye bit...I need to focus on my own weaknesses more than focusing on the weakness of my neighbour. Instead, I'm called to LOVE my neighbour. Just had to say that I found the bolded part very refreshing!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXMomof4 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) Just checking in on my own thread here, because I am still struggling with this issue a bit. The tree analogy was great...especially since my pastor has used that anolgy many times and although I love it, I also appreciate the more detailed view ;). That said I am going to put forth a specific situation I encountered. At one point I was dealing with a "sin" issue in my life. I would pray about it, fast , ask for prayers, read scriptures, quote scriptures.....and so on. I wanted to be free of it. I wanted to lead a more Godly life. Then a dear lady came up to me and said these words, "I sense that you are striving to make this happen. Rest in God. Give yourself some grace and see what happens." Maybe she knew my primary issue was shame, I'm not sure. What I do know is that when I stopped thrashing about and rested, God took over. When I let up on myself...I began to grow. Love and peace were rekindled. So, I guess...I don't want to go back to that type of striveing. Now, I could make the argument that I never stopped working...I just started working on dealing with shame instead. I'm not sure :confused:. What I do know is Jesus came to do what I could not do in my own strength. I think EO has the most balanced mindset on this issue. I just struggle with the way some things are phrased, but I am working on it ;). I think that is the hardest part of accepting grace. I think if I read enough, pray enough, gain enough knowledge I'll have a better understanding of God's work and goals for my life. But I've taken the burden of achieving that understanding. There is nothing wrong with any of those activities, but I have to TRUST that God will reveal whatever I need to know. It isn't a test to pass, it isn't a subject to master. I. can't. do. it. I can read the bible cover to cover every month and without allowing God to work IN me, it's just a book. ETA: I'm not saying there isn't a responsibility to study and pray. But determining that I can gain true understanding ON MY OWN is the point I was making. I've definately been struggling with this lately. I can't do it. I don't have to. God has promised he will and I need to trust him. Whatever it is. Edited January 6, 2011 by TXMomof4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXMomof4 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Of course we have those that go through the motions or are there because of some family/cultural expectation of them! People are human after all :) However, we don't sit around trying to figure out who is who and judging them. It's between them, their priest, and God (and sometimes between them and God until they choose to include their priest). You also never know when something may click with them and it may become more than just motions to them. Like many faiths, we've had people go off, marry outside of the Church or simply quit going for a time, merely to come back later with their spouse/children and become part of the Church again. I have a few friends like this, mostly cradle, that will tell you that at one time, due to whatever reasons, they simply took their faith for granted and later it dawned on them that there was more to it and they needed to "own" it. Sometimes people own it young, sometimes it doesn't click till they've matured a bit, sometimes not till after they've married, and sometimes not till after they've had children. Each person's journey is different. We don't try to force children to "own" it by a "sinners' prayer", "hitting the altar", or "asking Jesus into their heart" by age 6 or 8 or 12 (all references from when I was growing up...in a church where that was the only goal of the children's ministry and once that was done, they felt they had "done their job"). It's a life long continuing journey. We all wander in one way or another...some more obvious than others, some merely distracted by whatever life or circumstances they are facing, etc. But that's not the end of the road. And because of that, we can't judge one person to be more "on the road" than another. Again, sometimes we *think* *we* are fully on the road until something brings us to our knees and we look back and see where we've wandered. The whole take the log out of your own eye bit...I need to focus on my own weaknesses more than focusing on the weakness of my neighbour. Instead, I'm called to LOVE my neighbour. If we could all grasp this and LIVE this! Amazing post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Just had to say that I found the bolded part very refreshing!!!! That's exactly how I felt. To be loved through your questions and doubts instead of judged for them. My bruises are showing. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 My bruises are showing. :001_smile: Mine are also...to hear the questions and have to put an answer to them is healing like you wouldn't believe. Can I go back a few years and kick my younger self? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommyoftwinboys Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I struggled with that as well when coming back to the EO church. I struggled with what *others* in the church were doing. The priest reminded me that it's not my job to wonder about what others are doing, it's between me and God...my business is my business and there's is there's... I'll use an example...you may or may not know that EO has many fast days a year. This includes giving up dairy, meat, etc...for Lent it's for the entire time! I really, really, really struggle with this...well, the priest made a comment about me using soy products as a subsititute(ie. soy milk) Well, for one I don't use soy products and two I kindof feel like that's cheating...I mean for me, I feel like it's not really a sacrifice(or a huge one)if you are eating soy ice cream instead of regular ice cream, ywim? Well, he then put me in my place..in a nice way of course:tongue_smilie:..If *I* have issues with that and *I* feel like it's *cheating* than that is *my* issue with it and it's something I need to deal with and not worry about whether others in the faith feel the same way....It makes sense I was so worried about what others were doing I couldn't focus on my own journey... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Mine are also...to hear the questions and have to put an answer to them is healing like you wouldn't believe. Can I go back a few years and kick my younger self? :grouphug: Though I think every decade brings that feeling in some way or another. :D Perhaps when I'm 90 I won't want to kick myself? I doubt it. :D But yeah, I know what you mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I did not really like the Clark Carlton books as it seemed like he was both simplistic and a little strident in tone. Perhaps that was just my place at that time :) I appreciate you mentioning this, as well as how much you like the James Payton book. This is good to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abreakfromlife Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 This was one part of becoming Orthodox that was so *refreshing* to me--the judging of other people just fell away. I don't HAVE to judge anymore--to be testing other people's theology to see if it "measures up to mine" (which is,) of course, correct) (how prideful!) or to make my point so people can understand what I believe. The Church teaches us, and Christ--and we--have mercy and love for the people. One of the things you will hear again and again in Orthodoxy is that walking with Christ goes like this: Walk. Fall down. Get up again. Fall down. Get up again. We all do this together. And what I have observed is that the more like Christ a parishioner is, the less embarrassed I am to be on the ground again, because the other person kindly and mercifully helps me stand up, dusts me off (not exposing my sin, even while silently, by love, encouraging me to shed it), and walks beside me some more. What's interesting to me is that this kind of thing is said in the evangelical/protestant churches, but it doesn't seem to work out that well in practice. Why is it that it seems to work in EO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) What's interesting to me is that this kind of thing is said in the evangelical/protestant churches, but it doesn't seem to work out that well in practice. Why is it that it seems to work in EO? I've asked myself that many times in the last few days. Edited January 6, 2011 by justamouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXMomof4 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 What's interesting to me is that this kind of thing is said in the evangelical/protestant churches, but it doesn't seem to work out that well in practice. Why is it that it seems to work in EO? I just listened to a sermon a few days ago that was talking about western culture and our need to 'measure' everything. From the minute you're born, there are scales and tables that we are measured against. APGAR, weight, height, then it goes to how early you walk, talk, etc., then school age competition - on through til we die. The preacher was pointing out that this is a very western mindset. You don't find this nearly as much in eastern cultures. He was using this to explain why we have such a hard time grasping the concept of agape love. We want to use a scale - if I do x then Jesus will love me y. If I do 2x then I get twice the love. It doesn't work that way, but our culture says it should and we are nothing if not products of our upbringing. Maybe there is something in EO that has a better grasp of the idea that it isn't a competition but a journey with family? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 6, 2011 Author Share Posted January 6, 2011 I just listened to a sermon a few days ago that was talking about western culture and our need to 'measure' everything. From the minute you're born, there are scales and tables that we are measured against. APGAR, weight, height, then it goes to how early you walk, talk, etc., then school age competition - on through til we die. The preacher was pointing out that this is a very western mindset. You don't find this nearly as much in eastern cultures. He was using this to explain why we have such a hard time grasping the concept of agape love. We want to use a scale - if I do x then Jesus will love me y. If I do 2x then I get twice the love. It doesn't work that way, but our culture says it should and we are nothing if not products of our upbringing. Maybe there is something in EO that has a better grasp of the idea that it isn't a competition but a journey with family? This is the very issue that has my dh a bit concerned with ALL Chrisitianity. This need to measure, or evaluate other's "fruit" or growth is difficult. It's what appeals to me about EO, but some of the language ie "works" gets a bit triggering for him (and me :D) We are begininng to see the difference. A difference we were only able to find in churches that were "grace heavy" you know the ones...the ones other Christians would say were "soft on sin." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) Patty Joanna, I was going to say confession too (as what makes it different in EO churches compared to Protestant churches). It's amazing what having to say your sins out loud does to you in the inner man, and how that starts to begin changing what comes OUT little by little. Now that I've been a part of this "mystery" for a short while, I can see the wisdom of having to say things out loud to a priest. Areas I've struggled with for years (overeating, grumpiness with my kids, marital frustration, etc.) are finally being addressed -- by addressing my heart in a safe, loving place -- and I'm seeing change, glory to God. Simka, I know based on your past experience that this might be a struggle for you (relating to a priestly authority). I in no way ever, ever want to belittle your experience because it must have been extremely difficult and is not something I've ever had to deal with (so I don't want to be patronizing by saying, "I know how you must feel"). I have NO idea how you feel and how it has affected you. :grouphug: But your gentle, loving God *does* and He's not going to press you on this. There is so *little* pushing in Orthodoxy. Our priest hasn't yet told us to do anything -- when we ask, then he advises. He listens, he prays. He asks questions and occasionally challenges me as necessary (I can be pretty hard hearted and selfish). I haven't met a ton of priests yet, but a few, and most of the ones I've met are converts (which doesn't mean anything in the end, but it does mean they made a huge change in faith as an adult, so they share that understanding of where we're coming from). And they're among the nicest, gentlest people that I've ever met. We might be seeing a change of priestly leadership soon, in our parish, and I'm not worried about it because of what I've seen so far. Mouse (may I call you Mouse? :D), I remember reading a post of yours a couple months back. In it, you described community and how your home church is living in community. I really enjoyed reading that. We, too, have longed for true Christian community -- people sharing their very lives. I believe you spoke of families/households even buying homes near each other didn't you? I love that. We live in a smallish town so that nothing is really far away -- we're about 7.5 minutes from our local parish. I've seen/heard of people doing what you mentioned (buying near the church/each other). But aside from proximity physically, I'm really seeing people come together in a godly way. And for the first time, it's not centered on "likemindedness" (forgive me if anyone loves this word, but I'm really learning to loathe it and the affect it has had on the Body of Christ). It is just because it is ..... we are the Body of Christ and we are called to bear one another's burdens, no matter what. I feel like I'm rambling. Long day at work, and am just unwinding for a bit before we go to church tonight, to break through the ice in the creek so the priest can bless the water! (It's Theophany today -- joyous feast! -- the day we celebrate the baptism of Christ in the waters of the Jordan River). Edited January 7, 2011 by milovaný Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 Simka, I know based on your past experience that this might be a struggle for you (relating to a priestly authority). I in no way ever, ever want to belittle your experience because it must have been extremely difficult and is not something I've ever had to deal with (so I don't want to be patronizing by saying, "I know how you must feel"). I have NO idea how you feel and how it has affected you. :grouphug: But your gentle, loving God *does* and He's not going to press you on this. There is so *little* pushing in Orthodoxy. I will be honest and say this has been a concern of mine. The very thought of it makes me nauseous....extreemly nauseous!!!! That said...I have determined two things... 1. This person will have only so much power over me. I choose to push forward...albeit very cautiously...and listening to my gut. 2. God has to be big enough to know where I am at. If this is something I cannot do for some time, I have to trust he understands. There I said it. Let's hope I can walk it out :D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 The author has another book called "The Truth" that is designed for Roman Catholics interested in or entering the Orthodox Church, just in case anyone out there wants to know. :001_smile: Are there any other books that detail the differences between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy? One that just says "Orthodox believe this, Catholics believe this" - evenhanded - without getting argumentative? I would be very interested in reading such a book, but, very honestly, I don't know how I would do if it's main purpose was to prove Catholicism wrong. I hope I said that alright; I would just like to know more so I can ponder it myself. I am very, very curious about Orthodoxy. Twice in my life when discussing faith, someone has said to me I sound like I'm Orthodox???? I'd like to know why since Catholicism is in my core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Mouse (may I call you Mouse? :D), I remember reading a post of yours a couple months back. In it, you described community and how your home church is living in community. I really enjoyed reading that. We, too, have longed for true Christian community -- people sharing their very lives. I believe you spoke of families/households even buying homes near each other didn't you? I love that. We live in a smallish town so that nothing is really far away -- we're about 7.5 minutes from our local parish. I've seen/heard of people doing what you mentioned (buying near the church/each other). But aside from proximity physically, I'm really seeing people come together in a godly way. And for the first time, it's not centered on "likemindedness" (forgive me if anyone loves this word, but I'm really learning to loathe it and the affect it has had on the Body of Christ). It is just because it is ..... we are the Body of Christ and we are called to bear one another's burdens, no matter what. You know what I'm learning about that situation? Is that if no one else is as committed as I am, it falls apart. And I'm not saying that I'm the only family that is committed, not at all. But it's ...just hard. Bearing one another's burdens. Yes. That is a word from God to me today, from you. Thank you. And mouse sounds great. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) You know what I'm learning about that situation? Is that if no one else is as committed as I am, it falls apart. And I'm not saying that I'm the only family that is committed, not at all. But it's ...just hard. Boy, I hear you. If intentionally bearing one another's burdens / living in community is a project of sorts (meaning, "this is what's distinctive about our group, in Christian circles") then I could see how it itself might become a burden. That would be hard; in fact we've been there too. Our family was part of a church start up about 10 years ago. Our "distinctive" was "age integrated fellowship." We had 7-8 families who met together for awhile. It was what we all longed for, we were all "likeminded" in this, but it become such a large burden itself that it fell apart. How do you bear someone's burden when the burden is the burden?! (Did that make any sense at all?) ETA -- Now, in EO church, no one is really off doing their own thing, trying to get their own pet project going, etc. We don't have this kind of Christians meeting over here and that kind of Christian group meeting over there. We're all coming together within an ark that's already been afloat for 2000 years. Instead of pioneering something (which had been so exciting previously), we're just learning to move along with a boat that knows where its going and how best to get there. Edited January 7, 2011 by milovaný Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 Are there any other books that detail the differences between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy? One that just says "Orthodox believe this, Catholics believe this" - evenhanded - without getting argumentative? I would be very interested in reading such a book, but, very honestly, I don't know how I would do if it's main purpose was to prove Catholicism wrong. I hope I said that alright; I would just like to know more so I can ponder it myself. I am very, very curious about Orthodoxy. Twice in my life when discussing faith, someone has said to me I sound like I'm Orthodox???? I'd like to know why since Catholicism is in my core. I got this at the library http://www.amazon.com/Catholicism-Orthodox-Christianity-World-Religions/dp/1604131063/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294364448&sr=1-11 It was very neutral, maybe a bit simplistic. I liked it, but I wouldn't buy it ;). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.