deacongirl Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Slightly OT b/c it involves terminating a twin for medical reasons, but I know IRL someone who terminated one twin because testing (can't remember if it was amnio or CVS) showed Down syndrome. While it is highly unusual for an error to be made, in fact the baby did not have Down syndrome, the cells were from the placenta and there is something called confined placental mosaicism. The mother carried both twins to term and pathology on the aborted twin showed that it had been healthy. I cannot imagine explaining either situation to a surviving twin one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Slightly OT b/c it involves terminating a twin for medical reasons, but I know IRL someone who terminated one twin because testing (can't remember if it was amnio or CVS) showed Down syndrome. While it is highly unusual for an error to be made, in fact the baby did not have Down syndrome, the cells were from the placenta and there is something called confined placental mosaicism. The mother carried both twins to term and pathology on the aborted twin showed that it had been healthy. I cannot imagine explaining either situation to a surviving twin one day.I can hardly think straight about that issue. It makes me too sad and angry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacongirl Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 I can hardly think straight about that issue. It makes me too sad and angry. I spent many nights rocking my son just thankful he was alive and weeping at what his diagnosis means for so many babies just like him. In an effort to attempt to understand what led people to choose to terminate for t21 I lurked a lot on termination for medical reasons forums. It was extremely difficult to read the justifications, as well as the details of the procedures. Now I often wonder when I notice a woman staring at my son, (and seeing how awesome he is doing) if she is wondering what her child with Down syndrome would have been like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Even though I believe in a woman's right to choose, this makes me so sad. I lost DS6's twin at around 12 weeks. Friends of ours had twins last March, and a few months later my eldest asked me why I never had twins. So, without even thinking about it, I mentioned the deceased twin. My eldest and DD4 were sad and surprised, but it was really DS6's reaction that surprised me and made me really wonder - he was not surprised at all, and all he said to me was "I know, I call him Jacob." Made the hair on my arms stand up and also made me really upset to know that he knew about his twin, but never spoke of him. He talks about it all the time now that he feels he has "permission" and he asks lots of questions like "why did he die and i didn't?" (not that we knew what the sex was). This gave me chills. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Time Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Just ran into this article and thought it was really timely to this thread. I apologize it if is not an appropriate link, and I ask the mod to just delete the post if it is. The Unborn Paradox http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/03/opinion/03douthat.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Just ran into this article and thought it was really timely to this thread. I apologize it if is not an appropriate link, and I ask the mod to just delete the post if it is. The Unborn Paradox http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/03/opinion/03douthat.html :crying: good, true, but very sad article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KatieH Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I spent many nights rocking my son just thankful he was alive and weeping at what his diagnosis means for so many babies just like him. In an effort to attempt to understand what led people to choose to terminate for t21 I lurked a lot on termination for medical reasons forums. It was extremely difficult to read the justifications, as well as the details of the procedures. Now I often wonder when I notice a woman staring at my son, (and seeing how awesome he is doing) if she is wondering what her child with Down syndrome would have been like. I don't have a child with DSn (although I do have a child who's disabled), but I used to be a community support worker, working with adults with disabilities. Most of the time it was DS. The thought of people aborting those babies makes me sick with rage, honestly. They're people like anyone else, they have likes and dislikes and a full range of emotions...I really don't get what scares people so much about DS that over 90% babies diagnosed are aborted. Yeah, there's health problems, yeah, they're "different" but so what? And anyway, "perfect" genes don't mean anything. My disabled dd is genetically "normal" but disabled because she suffered a massive stroke prenatally. I always wonder what people who would abort a baby with problems would do if they unexpectedly gave birth to one. Actually, I think I know. I read an article on mothers of babies with DS (in a Catholic magazine). One didn't know until birth. The baby also had a heart defect, which is normal. The doctor actually told her that he would be happy NOT to do the surgery to fix the baby's heart since they "didn't have a chance to take care of this before birth." In other words, since you didn't know before hand so you could kill the baby, we can just skip the surgery she needs so she'll die!!!! How horrifying. Apparently this is fairly common for "surprise" DS. Blargh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KatieH Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Oh, and that reminds me, around the time my dd2 was born and struggling in the NICU, there was a big to-do in England because someone had a proposed a law that would allow parents to effectively euthanize babies like her (babies born brain-damaged). Nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Just ran into this article and thought it was really timely to this thread. I apologize it if is not an appropriate link, and I ask the mod to just delete the post if it is. The Unborn Paradox http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/03/opinion/03douthat.html So very sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I don't have a child with DSn (although I do have a child who's disabled), but I used to be a community support worker, working with adults with disabilities. Most of the time it was DS. The thought of people aborting those babies makes me sick with rage, honestly. They're people like anyone else, they have likes and dislikes and a full range of emotions...I really don't get what scares people so much about DS that over 90% babies diagnosed are aborted. Yeah, there's health problems, yeah, they're "different" but so what?I understand that people are afraid and don't feel like they can take on the job. I can't understand being so afraid and unwilling that they would decide that the child doesn't deserve to live. It truly frightens me how our society doesn't seem to feel that disabled children are worthy of life--and we don't even need a eugenics-obsessed government to take them away, people do it themselves. And anyway, "perfect" genes don't mean anything. My disabled dd is genetically "normal" but disabled because she suffered a massive stroke prenatally. There's no such thing as a 'perfect' child. People come with problems. If they aren't born with them, they develop difficulties and problems later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I understand that people are afraid and don't feel like they can take on the job. I can't understand being so afraid and unwilling that they would decide that the child doesn't deserve to live. It truly frightens me how our society doesn't seem to feel that disabled children are worthy of life--and we don't even need a eugenics-obsessed government to take them away, people do it themselves. There's no such thing as a 'perfect' child. People come with problems. If they aren't born with them, they develop difficulties and problems later. Exactly! My twins were 7.5 lbs each, perfectly healthy, and born at 37 weeks. But by the time they were 2, they had clear speech delays but I wasn't worried. By the time they were 3, I was worried, and they've been in at least 2x a week speech therapy since then (they are now 5). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Just ran into this article and thought it was really timely to this thread. I apologize it if is not an appropriate link, and I ask the mod to just delete the post if it is. The Unborn Paradox http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/03/opinion/03douthat.html :crying: This is the paradox of America’s unborn. No life is so desperately sought after, so hungrily desired, so carefully nurtured. And yet no life is so legally unprotected, and so frequently destroyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phathui5 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Wow. That's horrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 6, 2011 Author Share Posted January 6, 2011 :crying: Talk about a paradox...the Toronto woman had 2 babies in her womb...nurtured and wanted one & killed the other... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Talk about a paradox...the Toronto woman had 2 babies in her womb...nurtured and wanted one & killed the other... I can't wrap my head around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I don't see that is any worse than aborting a single pregnancy. I don't think it's worse. I do think it's more shocking. It shatters the illusion that abortion is rare, and generally only performed when a woman is in really desperate circumstances that might justify her terrible, heart-wrenching decision. It shows that in fact it isn't always terrible and desperate circumstances that lead women to abortion, but matters of "convenience". It shows that keeping abortion both legal and rare is a pipe dream. It shows that once we have numbed our emotions enough to allow one child to be aborted, we really are slipping down a slope into a hell of our own making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 I don't think it's worse. I do think it's more shocking. It shatters the illusion that abortion is rare, and generally only performed when a woman is in really desperate circumstances that might justify her terrible, heart-wrenching decision. It shows that in fact it isn't always terrible and desperate circumstances that lead women to abortion, but matters of "convenience". It shows that keeping abortion both legal and rare is a pipe dream. It shows that once we have numbed our emotions enough to allow one child to be aborted, we really are slipping down a slope into a hell of our own making. When I started this thread, I felt a visceral horror about the act. I just couldn't find the words to state how I felt. I am not trying to keep this thread going just to keep it going. but I wanted to add: GretaLynne what you have written matches my feelings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I don't think it's worse. I do think it's more shocking. It shatters the illusion that abortion is rare, and generally only performed when a woman is in really desperate circumstances that might justify her terrible, heart-wrenching decision. It shows that in fact it isn't always terrible and desperate circumstances that lead women to abortion, but matters of "convenience". It shows that keeping abortion both legal and rare is a pipe dream. It shows that once we have numbed our emotions enough to allow one child to be aborted, we really are slipping down a slope into a hell of our own making. I agree that abortion can be done for reprehensible reasons such as convenience:(. OTOH, I want to see abortion rare, legal and safe and between a woman and her doctor. I don't think a woman should have to go to a judge for permission. This case is illustrative of why is should be between a woman and her doctor: http://ncronline.org/news/no-direct-abortion-phoenix-hospital-theologian-says Ideally I think both woman and child should be saved but that is not always possible:(. I agree that abortion is ending a human life and at one time was totally against abortion. I changed my mind when I met a woman who was gang raped at 13 and also mutilated with a knife in her privates. She became pregnant. I don't think I should be the one to tell her to go through with the pregnancy even though that is her child. I would want her to know all of the supports available to her. This case changed my mind. I also know an experienced prosecutor who told me that rape cases are very difficult to prove and are often lost:( I don't think a judge should be able to determine the outcome here. I would hope that Plan B emergency contraception would be readily available to every woman who needs it. It also upsets me that those who are strictly opposed to abortion often, not always, are against birth control, Plan B emergency contraception, and sex education in conjunction with abstinence education. I have also read of some opinions in the pro-life movement that believe a woman should sacrifice her life in cases where the woman is in danger physically. I myself have taken care of 3 women who were critically ill in pregnancy:( Thank goodness, their pregnancies continued but again it is not always feasible:( I do pray that cases of convenience and other reprehensible reasons for abortion come to an end. I also hope to see Plan B emergency contraception readily available over the counter as well as good access to birth control and sex education in conjunction with encouraging abstinence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HistoryMom Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Even though I believe in a woman's right to choose, this makes me so sad. This. She has the right, but what a terrible, unthinking way to exercise it. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KatieH Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 There's no such thing as a 'perfect' child. People come with problems. If they aren't born with them, they develop difficulties and problems later. Gosh yes, that was my point, hence the quotation marks around "perfect." Sorry if that wasn't clear. I came across this story today and thought of this thread :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virg Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I got pregnant right before my 18th birthday and found out at 8 weeks I was having twins. This option was offered to me. I didn't take it and was upset for days they had even asked me. My twins have had multiple health issues but are ten now. Their special connection is unbelievable and of course I can't imagine life without them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Gosh yes, that was my point, hence the quotation marks around "perfect." Sorry if that wasn't clear. No, I know! I was agreeing with you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Gosh yes, that was my point, hence the quotation marks around "perfect." Sorry if that wasn't clear. I came across this story today and thought of this thread :( Omg. She'd do anything. Disgusting. Do you think her sons feel the love? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2myboys Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Gosh yes, that was my point, hence the quotation marks around "perfect." Sorry if that wasn't clear. I came across this story today and thought of this thread :( Wow. The part in the article about the professor saying he does not think it will hurt anyone is disturbing. What about those 2 little boys who never had a chance? What kind of message is this sending the boys that they do have? I am sorry for the couple's loss. Truly I am. But killing more babies to replace one lost is not going to solve things. They do not seem to realize right now that they have lost 3 children, 2 by their own hand. :sad::crying: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I have hesitated to open this thread, and have chosen to not read the other responses. Six years ago I sat in my new ob's office to discuss the ramifications of my newly diagnosed pregnancy. It was quite a matter-of-fact visit. Given my particular circumstances, I was at high risk for multiples and high risk for uterine rupture during the pregnancy. The doc told me that if a multiple pregnancy was in progress, we would need to discuss a selective reduction. Or I would have to seriously consider getting my affairs in order (yeah, the lack of bedside manner is a whole 'nother discussion but I at least appreciated his straightforwardness). I left that appointment just... sick. Heartsick, physically ill, no other way to describe it. I prayed very hard between that appointment and the first sonogram which revealed a single fetus. I would like to be able to say that, had it been multiples, we'd have opted to not reduce. And deep in my heart, I don't think I could have brought myself to it. But at the time, my death would have meant leaving my dh and three other young children without a mother. So who knows? But the case scenario in the original post? Selective reduction of twins for a matter of... convenience? Preference? Because twins would be a bump in the road of a perfectly planned life? I personally find that thoroughly disgusting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllBoys Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Two reasons which are always given to justify abortion are rape and incest. I think we would all agree that becoming pregnant as a result of rape or incest has to be one of the most difficult and heart breaking situations a woman could experience. But I was thinking about this and if you believe that abortion is the ending of a human life, that means that rape and incest are the only crimes in this country for which children are legally punished (with the death penalty of all things) for the crimes of their parents. So for me it comes down to either it is a human life or it isn't. And if it is, then it always is, not sometimes, a human life, even when it is difficult, heart breaking, or inconvenient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdalley Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Two reasons which are always given to justify abortion are rape and incest. I think we would all agree that becoming pregnant as a result of rape or incest has to be one of the most difficult and heart breaking situations a woman could experience. But I was thinking about this and if you believe that abortion is the ending of a human life, that means that rape and incest are the only crimes in this country for which children are legally punished (with the death penalty of all things) for the crimes of their parents. So for me it comes down to either it is a human life or it isn't. And if it is, then it always is, not sometimes, a human life, even when it is difficult, heart breaking, or inconvenient. I have a friend who was molested and raped by her stepfather from the time she was 3 until she became pregnant at 16 by him. She told me abortion had never entered her mind. She said she felt it was wrong to punish the baby for his crimes. She had her baby, placed it up for adoption and four years later is happily married to a fine young man and they have a nine month old daughter. I am in awe of her. She could be bitter but she isn't. She's one of the most loving giving people I know with the most optimistic outlook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Katie H, that article made my stomach want to retch. Honestly, that youngest boy of theirs ought to be feeling like he narrowly "dodged the bullet" just because he had the wrong plumbing. The world is an ugly place and some people just shouldn't procreate, ever. Every once in a while, something like this makes my blood boil and then I dangerously think, "Not all forced sterilization by the state, is necessarily a bad thing!" I know, I know....don't go there. It's just people like the ones in this article, make me see red! Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakia Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 That last linked article is even more sickening, if that's possible. These things make me long for heaven even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Two reasons which are always given to justify abortion are rape and incest. I think we would all agree that becoming pregnant as a result of rape or incest has to be one of the most difficult and heart breaking situations a woman could experience. But I was thinking about this and if you believe that abortion is the ending of a human life, that means that rape and incest are the only crimes in this country for which children are legally punished (with the death penalty of all things) for the crimes of their parents. So for me it comes down to either it is a human life or it isn't. And if it is, then it always is, not sometimes, a human life, even when it is difficult, heart breaking, or inconvenient. :iagree: My hang-up comes when the life of the mother is in the balance. I've known women that have taken the chance and lived to tell about it and women that have gotten the abortion only to be left wondering and depressed over could have beens. Imo, that is the hardest position to be put in. Choosing your own life over the life inside you, even if the ultimate result may be two deaths or only one. Part of me wishes we didn't know all that we do. If it were me, I'd rather die in complete ignorance. In your two given instances, I lean towards the 'morning after' pill if only because it would cause a spontaneous period before implantation could occur. I know that it means the woman/girl would have to go to authorities immediately (before the pregnancy concerns even start), or else go to term, but a big part of me thinks that it would benefit everyone overrall if that were the case. More rapes/incest would get reported, because there would not be a chance to 'wait and see.' I thank God all the same that I've never been in THAT situation. Theoretically, I agree with the woman you mentioned, the resulting child should not be punished. However, I've never been there and I do believe that the child will end up "punished" one way or another (birth defects due to incest or knowing they're the child of rape). I do hope, though, that cases like these will be a starting point for the two groups (pro-life and pro-choice) to come together and start to make concessions towards, at the very least, making abortion rare, rather than the go-to-answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Wow. The part in the article about the professor saying he does not think it will hurt anyone is disturbing. What about those 2 little boys who never had a chance? What kind of message is this sending the boys that they do have? I am sorry for the couple's loss. Truly I am. But killing more babies to replace one lost is not going to solve things. They do not seem to realize right now that they have lost 3 children, 2 by their own hand. :sad::crying: Yes, all the worst of the 'slippery slope' arguments of the 70's are coming true, one by one. So many are morally anesthetized about these killings. It's tragic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Yes, all the worst of the 'slippery slope' arguments of the 70's are coming true, one by one. So many are morally anesthetized about these killings. It's tragic. That's exactly what I was thinking this morning. I'm hoping this will give people pause. Thank God, the majority of people are not anesthetized to it, let's just hope they don't justify their way around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amyrjoy Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 My brain can't understand or fathom all of this. My heart aches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Or ..... "Johnny I wish we'd aborted you too". I've sadly heard moms scream horrible things at their children, and can just imagine the shrill in her voice when Johnny does something naughty and that moms starts thinking she shouldn't have bothered having him either. I comfort myself to think that perhaps it will never happen since someone else will be raising her 2 kids. I have heard that screamed with my own ears: "I aborted 7 others! I wish I had aborted you, too!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I have heard that screamed with my own ears: "I aborted 7 others! I wish I had aborted you, too!" It boggles my mind that abortion is taken lightly enough to be used as a response to IRRITATION. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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