Questions about the LDS (Mormon) faith

[Xuzi]

This really isn't a question for LDS specifically, but you might know or someone on here reading this might pop in and answer.

 

Is the LDS church the only Christian church that accepts God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost as three different entities and not one in the same, or are there other sects?

 

Now these are specially LDS questions:

 

Can you please explain *how* you look at them all differently? It might seem like a loaded question, or it might seem very simple to understand, but please enlighten me.

 

God is the Father. He is the "Boss", I guess you could say. It is HIS Plan, we are HIS children. Jesus Christ is His son (God is the father of both His spirit AND body). He does nothing but what the Father instructs Him to do. He will neither say nor do anything that the Father would not want Him to do. Both God the Father and Jesus Christ have physical, glorified bodies of flesh and bone. The Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, who also is under the direction of the Father. He is sent to guide us to the Truth, and be our Witness to it. He will not tell us something is True that isn't actually True.

 

Do you believe Jesus is physically God's son, and the Holy Ghost impregnated Mary or God himself did, without physically doing it?

 

We do not know how Jesus was conceived beyond what the Bible tells us the Angel told Mary. There was one church leader who did say that it was through sex that Jesus was conceived, however he was chastized by Church leadership for presenting his belief as being doctrine because he published it in a book called Mormon Doctrine. The second edition was greatly edited, with that controversial bit removed, and now all books published through the church's publishing arm have to be approved by Church leadership so that such personal opinions don't get confused with official doctrine.

 

This may have been asked elsewhere, and I have read all 40 pages, but can't remember if it was asked.

 

Thanks.

My answers in blue. :)

[Hunter's Moon]

My answers in blue. :)

 

Thanks, appreciate it :)

[Mekanamom]

I'm confused. If your parents were not sealed before you were born, then you were NOT born in the covenant (thus the need for you to be present at the time that they were sealed). "Born in the covenant" means a child was born after his/her parents had already been sealed in the temple. :)

 

***Ah, I had been told I was one of the lucky ones born in the covenant, because I was born into the church. Perhaps the person telling me this did not know my parents weren't yet sealed. Good to know.

 

As has been discussed earlier in this thread, teens do participate in proxy baptisms, but these occur in an entirely separate part of the temple. They do require a temple recommend, but it is a limited recommend that does not grant access into the areas for endowed (adults who have made specific commitments during a special ceremony) members. Only endowed adults wear the special garments under their clothes.

 

*** Yes, I answered just that part of the comment before reading all of the replies. Catching up, here. :) And yes, I know the baptisms for the dead are not the whole temple experience... Which is why I mentioned I did not receive endowments or go through that ceremony. I never wore garments. (Though I did serve a mini-mission and did some extra interviews and had a patriarchal blessing that the other kids my age that didnt serve on a mini-mission did not do. But those things were done outside of the temple).

 

Oh, also catching up here... No, there was nothing sexual about it. It's horrifying to think of a whole group of teens molested during such a trip.

 

I received my endowment in 1999, so I don't know what changes there might have been. I can't imagine them changing anything particularly significant....

 

Er, well, not having been through it myself I can't tell you from personal experience. I believe some of what changed actually falls under too sacred to discuss, since it was part of the ceremony. Obviously, someone did discuss it with me (actually, more than one person) but since the church has this policy, I feel it would be disrespectful to share in an open forum. Suffice to say, some people who noticed the change thought it was no big deal, and some thought it was. If you are curious, I think your bishop shouldn't have a problem discussing it with you...?

[Amira]

This really isn't a question for LDS specifically, but you might know or someone on here reading this might pop in and answer.

 

Is the LDS church the only Christian church that accepts God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost as three different entities and not one in the same, or are there other sects?

 

Thanks.

 

We're not the only nontrinitarians, but I'm not sure how many others believe the Godhead consists of three distinct and separate beings outside other Joseph Smith-based churches (except the Community if Christ which is now trinitarian). I think we are nearly unique in believing in three separate beings, but also believing Jesus is divine. This, of course, gets a little sticky since Christians are supposed to be monotheistic. I have researched this in the past, but it's hard to fit everyone into neat boxes and I'd love to have someone correct me.

[Mekanamom]

Mekanamom: Did your parents adopt by any chance? Perhaps you were present for the Sealing of your parents to your new sibling, rather than the Sealing of your parents to eachother?

 

Nope, not that I know of! ;)

 

I don't remember all the specifics of the ceremony... Just that we were being sealed as a family. I mostly remember the temple clothing, the removal of all jewelry for the ceremony, and all the mirrors in the room. LOL.

[jenL]

Thank you for opening such an interesting and educational thread Mamasheep! I've learned so much reading the questions and answers, and it was refreshing to see such respect throughout. :)

 

Great job, ladies!!!!

[learning2gether]

I have a few questions and thanks in advance for answering.

1. I have heard that prior to the 70's the LDS Church did not allow AA men to be priesthood holders, but I have also read that Joseph Smith ordained (I don't know if this is the right term) an AA man as priesthood holder. If JS did it why would others after him not continue to allow it?

 

2. I was told by an LDS friend that they tithe only on their increase not on their entire salary. She and her husband deduct all living expenses and tithe on what is left. Is there scripture for that interpretation of tithing?

 

3. What is the Church's stand on how the BOM was interpreted? I have read that JS was somehow able to understand Egyptian written on Gold tablets but then was told by the same friend that he put a seer stone inside his hat and put his face into the hat. She said that he supposedly used the same stone to find burried treasure.

 

Thanks again.

[Amira]

I have a few questions and thanks in advance for answering.

1. I have heard that prior to the 70's the LDS Church did not allow AA men to be priesthood holders, but I have also read that Joseph Smith ordained (I don't know if this is the right term) an AA man as priesthood holder. If JS did it why would others after him not continue to allow it?

 

2. I was told by an LDS friend that they tithe only on their increase not on their entire salary. She and her husband deduct all living expenses and tithe on what is left. Is there scripture for that interpretation of tithing?

 

3. What is the Church's stand on how the BOM was interpreted? I have read that JS was somehow able to understand Egyptian written on Gold tablets but then was told by the same friend that he put a seer stone inside his hat and put his face into the hat. She said that he supposedly used the same stone to find burried treasure.

 

Thanks again.

 

Yes, Joseph ordained African American men to the priesthood, but later prophets did not until 1978. I don't know why, although I've heard more explanations that you can count. None of those explanations work for me and I am very relieved the policy has changed.

 

There is a scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants that says we are to tithe on our "increase." This is usually interpreted as the gross salary, before taxes and expenses, but not everyone interprets it the same way. It's generally a personal decision, but most LDS tithe 10 percent of their gross income.

 

Joseph Smith used several different methods while he was translating the Book of Mormon. Various people who saw him described the process in different ways. One method apparently was for Joseph Smith to put a stone in a hat and look into it. Another was to look into two stones called the Urim and Thummim. Sometimes he didn't use other objects.

 

He probably didn't technically translate the Book of Mormon from reformed Egyptian in the way any other book is translated from another language, but instead he was inspired with the translation. These seer stones were one of the methods he used at times to help him receive the revelation. However it was he got the revelation, LDS belief is that he translated the Book of Mormon through the power of God.

 

Joseph and his family did work for people who were looking for buried treasure, and it's likely they used "magical" items to help them, as was not uncommon at the time. It's also likely they weren't very successful because the Smiths were usually not well off.

[Forget-Me-Not]

My answers in red :D

 

I have a few questions and thanks in advance for answering.

1. I have heard that prior to the 70's the LDS Church did not allow AA men to be priesthood holders, but I have also read that Joseph Smith ordained (I don't know if this is the right term) an AA man as priesthood holder. If JS did it why would others after him not continue to allow it?

Yes, it is true that AA men were not allowed to hold the priesthood until 1977 when new revelation occurred that allowed "all worth males" to hold the priesthood. I have never heard that Joseph Smith ordained an AA man before that time, so I can't speak to that.

 

2. I was told by an LDS friend that they tithe only on their increase not on their entire salary. She and her husband deduct all living expenses and tithe on what is left. Is there scripture for that interpretation of tithing?

 

There is LDS Scripture on Tithing. I will say that your friend's interpretation is, in my experience, unusual. Most church members tithe on *income*. Now, whether they tithe on gross or net income, whether it includes monetary gifts, etc etc etc varies from member to member. It's another one of those things that is ultimately between you and the Lord. Members are asked yearly if they are full tithe payers. They answer either yes or no and are not questioned on the specifics of how they arrived at their numbers.

 

3. What is the Church's stand on how the BOM was interpreted? I have read that JS was somehow able to understand Egyptian written on Gold tablets but then was told by the same friend that he put a seer stone inside his hat and put his face into the hat. She said that he supposedly used the same stone to find burried treasure.

 

We believe the Book of Mormon was written on gold plates in 'reformed Egyptian'. Joseph Smith was given the gift of interpretation, one of many 'Gifts of the Spirit' that LDS recognize, and was able to translate them using a couple of different methods. The seer stone inside the hat was one way.

Thanks again.

[Sara in AZ]

I have a few questions and thanks in advance for answering.

1. I have heard that prior to the 70's the LDS Church did not allow AA men to be priesthood holders, but I have also read that Joseph Smith ordained (I don't know if this is the right term) an AA man as priesthood holder. If JS did it why would others after him not continue to allow it?

 

2. I was told by an LDS friend that they tithe only on their increase not on their entire salary. She and her husband deduct all living expenses and tithe on what is left. Is there scripture for that interpretation of tithing?

 

3. What is the Church's stand on how the BOM was interpreted? I have read that JS was somehow able to understand Egyptian written on Gold tablets but then was told by the same friend that he put a seer stone inside his hat and put his face into the hat. She said that he supposedly used the same stone to find burried treasure.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

Hmmm, interesting questions, Kimberly.

 

1. I don't know very much on the subject of any AA being given the priesthood in Joseph Smith's day. Can anyone else answer that?

 

 

 

2. Your friend has taken an interesting interpretation on the law of tithing, which is admittedly vaguely worded both in the Bible and in LDS scripture. You'll find 1/10th of your income or your increase. I suppose your friend would be tithing on her increase above what they need to live? I don't know anyone who pays tithing in this way. My husband and I tithe on our gross income. The matter is entirely between she and her husband and the Lord, though. Her Bishop won't be looking at their W2 or anything, and they are the one's who declare to the Bishop whether or not they are full tithe payers.

 

Here are two scriptures I found, though. The first is referring to the early settlers in the Salt Lake Valley. It must have been even more difficult to determine how much to tithe when everything was done in food and goods!

 

D&C 119

1Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

 

2For the building of mine ahouse, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

 

3And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

 

4And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

 

5Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

 

Alma 13:15

15And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed.

 

 

 

3. My husband and I have been slowly wading through this book about Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman: http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Stone-Rolling/dp/1400077532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1293942932&sr=8-1

 

It is fascinating and really gives a good picture of the culture of Joseph Smith's day. There were many treasure seekers around using various stones to help them locate hidden treasures. Joseph wasn't unique in having one or using one, other than he used it to translate the amazing golden plates. He used the stone at first, and as he continued to translate he was able to transition away from that tool and didn't need it anymore.

[Sara in AZ]

Oh you guys are too fast! You both answered in the time it took me to formulate one reply. I'll go get ready for church now and leave it to you. :-)

[Forget-Me-Not]

This thread is moving at warp speed! I should get off and get ready for church too. . . we go back to the 9 a.m. block tomorrow.

[Amira]

This thread is moving at warp speed! I should get off and get ready for church too. . . we go back to the 9 a.m. block tomorrow.

 

We're switching to 11, much to the delight of my older children, but we'll only be on that time for three weeks, because we're moving soon. Personally, I can't abide going to church at 11, but I suppose it's better than the 8 AM and 3 PM slots we had in one ward. Or the 3:45-6:45 PM slot my mom had with five little children in 1980. I can't even imagine.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Yikes! The latest I've ever done is 1-4 and that was so hard with small children!

[Xuzi]

Yikes! The latest I've ever done is 1-4 and that was so hard with small children!

That's our new time slot. I'm actually thrilled. :tongue_smilie:My almost 2 year old goes to sleep at a more reasonable hour (7 instead of 9-10) on days when he doesn't have a nap, and the 1-4 meeting block is right during his nap time. He'll be too distracted by all the toys in Nursery to try and take a nap, and we're only a block from the chapel, so there'll be no time for him to fall asleep on the way home. :D

[Amira]

That's our new time slot. I'm actually thrilled. :tongue_smilie:My almost 2 year old goes to sleep at a more reasonable hour (7 instead of 9-10) on days when he doesn't have a nap, and the 1-4 meeting block is right during his nap time. He'll be too distracted by all the toys in Nursery to try and take a nap, and we're only a block from the chapel, so there'll be no time for him to fall asleep on the way home. :D

 

I like 1-4 also. 11 is during nap time at our house and I feel sorry for my new 3yo's Primary teacher tomorrow.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Amira

[dangermom]

I have a few questions and thanks in advance for answering.

1. I have heard that prior to the 70's the LDS Church did not allow AA men to be priesthood holders, but I have also read that Joseph Smith ordained (I don't know if this is the right term) an AA man as priesthood holder. If JS did it why would others after him not continue to allow it?

 

 

Thanks again.

Yes, Elijah Abel was baptized in 1832 and ordained to the priesthood in 1836. He continued to exercise his priesthood in good standing until his death. In fact, I just read in this timeline of Black LDS History that his son and grandson were also ordained, which is quite a surprise to me. Other black men were also ordained--one was Green Flake, who was with Brigham Young's party in 1847 (the first Mormons to enter the Utah valley and decide to settle there). I can't remember all the names off the top of my head though, sorry. (And I'd like to add that Jane Manning James is an amazing woman to read about too.)

 

The history is murky at best. No one is quite sure why the ban was instituted--it was never scriptural (that is, there is no section in the Doctrine and Covenants about it) but was a policy that no one felt they could overturn until they received specific revelation about it. It's fascinating and difficult to read about the struggles LDS Church leaders had with the issue. Speculation as to the original reasoning ranges widely, but I don't think anyone knows.

Edited January 2, 2011 by dangermom

[dangermom]

And we are always at 9am because we share the building with the young singles ward and they like to sleep in! I'm getting a new calling tomorrow and it's going to be REALLY different for me. I've never worked in this auxiliary before. Eep.

[Amira]

And we are always at 9am because we share the building with the young singles ward and they like to sleep in! I'm getting a new calling tomorrow and it's going to be REALLY different for me. I've never worked in this auxiliary before. Eep.

 

I'm curious which one? Maybe you can tell us tomorrow after 9 AM.

[MamaSheep]

I agree the core doctrines haven't changed, but so much of what we talk about has changed and a lot of the weird stuff has been rooted out. Honestly, almost every weird rumor I hear about Mormons has some basis in truth, but because there used to be Mormons who believed those things. Except the horns and sex in the temple and a few other things.

 

I doubt I'm explaining this well, but I'm quite sure I don't disagree with you at all. I was referring to extra-doctrinal practices instead of core doctrines.

 

You know, I do think you have a point about weird rumors having some basis in truth--not that they are TRUE, but there is some real thing that sort of sits at the root in some way--maybe something was taken out of context, or maybe an individual Mormon person said something they thought was right, but wasn't, or a personal opinion was construed as church doctrine, or someone heard something and interpreted it through their own cultural experience because they were unaware of sub-text that would have been obvious to another Mormon in the conversation, or some Sunday school teacher taught his own exaggerated extrapolation in a lesson sometime. Or, y'know, people with their own nefarious agenda who are, unfortunately, temporarily in some position of authority, or whatever. I think the more people in the general public become educated as to actual LDS belief, the less likely people will be to buy into the rumors...at least some of the more bizarre things. I would think that the one about us believing we become stars when we die (have you heard that one?) probably has roots in the concept of "celestial bodies", which means something entirely different in LDS theology than it does in astronomy, just for example. And I can sort of understand the kind of confusion that could spawn the notion that we worship Joseph Smith and think Jesus was only a prophet--I mean, that's just backwards (my former co-worker "learned" this from her pastor at her church and wondered why I would have a picture of Jesus on my bulletin board rather than Joseph Smith if that was the case; we had a nice chat). One I haven't figured out the roots of is the idea that Mormon girls are locked in the temple when they turn 16 and kept there until a man returns from his mission and selects them to be their wife. I mean...that's just weird. Although, I have heard that some woman wrote a book in which she claimed to have escaped from the Salt Lake temple by leaping out a window into the Great Salt Lake (which would have been quite the jump, considering the distance) so maybe that's where that comes from. I can't think of anything actually part of the church that would contribute to that. I encountered it in the total astonishment of a waiter I bussed tables for one Christmas break when I was in college. The college thing blew his mind too, since he'd also been told Mormon women were forbidden to pursue higher education (and here I'd thought all those conference talks urging women to get all the education they could meant ME!). And you know, it doesn't bug me so much when it's just some random person who really doesn't know any better, what bugs me are these publications that certain "ministries" put out full of "inaccurate" stuff that could easily have been cleared up by a little basic research. I try to tell myself it's just sloppy scholarship, but at some point it becomes really hard to believe it's not intentional deception.

 

Anyway...yes, I think you're right that the church has become better at making sure that the doctrine is taught accurately, at least within the church, and helping people recognize the difference between actual church doctrine and other stuff that unfortunately gets wormed in there sometimes. One thing I love about the church is how it teaches, in its core doctrine ( :) ) that we must study things out for ourselves, and not just take someone else's word for it, including church leaders. But I do think there's a difference between changes in administration and focus, and changes in actual teachings, and I just wanted to be clear that my experience has been that the teachings of the church have been very consistent, even when meeting formats and lesson focuses have shifted. I mean, there are changes, and then there are changes. I'm not sure I'm saying what I mean very clearly either...lol...oh well. I think we're on the same page, more or less...:)

[dangerdad]

2. I was told by an LDS friend that they tithe only on their increase not on their entire salary. She and her husband deduct all living expenses and tithe on what is left. Is there scripture for that interpretation of tithing?

 

If the LDS church made rules for all possible situations, the "tithing handbook of answers" (my made-up name) would be a legalistic tome bigger than the US tax code. My eyes were seriously opened once I started my own business. I didn't have a regular salary. I didn't have income tax withholding, etc. I had to pursue answers in prayer about how to fulfill my tithing obligation. At the end of each year we have a process called "tithing settlement" in which we talk with our Bishop about tithing and he asks a simple question, roughly "does this constitute a full tithe?" It's left between you and the Lord. The Bishop records it and that's that.

 

As far as your friends go, it may be more complicated than you think. For instance, if they work for a company and the company provides them a car, do they pay tithing on what an equivalent lease would be? (The US tax code makes you pay taxes on that as income, but less than half of LDS membership is in the US now.) What if they own their own business and pay for a car that's used for business out of business funds? What about my case in which I have a 50/50 partner -- is the cost of leasing office space tithable income? Do I pay only half of it?

 

This is a great question, and I suspect you'll get slightly different answers from each LDS you ask. Each of us believes we'll stand before the Lord someday to make an accounting of what we did with our talents and stewardships. Rather than attempt to chronicle all the minutia, LDS leadership has left it up to the Lord to say what an honest or full tithe is.

Edited January 2, 2011 by dangerdad

[Amira]

But I do think there's a difference between changes in administration and focus, and changes in actual teachings, and I just wanted to be clear that my experience has been that the teachings of the church have been very consistent, even when meeting formats and lesson focuses have shifted. I mean, there are changes, and then there are changes. I'm not sure I'm saying what I mean very clearly either...lol...oh well. I think we're on the same page, more or less...:)

 

I think we are too. Some things have changed a lot, but the most important things haven't. Mostly. ;)

[dangermom]

I'm curious which one? Maybe you can tell us tomorrow after 9 AM.

I will reveal it tomorrow after church!! Stay tuned for this exciting announcement. :D (For the non-LDS folks, callings are often considered to be pretty confidential until they are officially announced in church--mostly I think so that last-minute fall-throughs make as little fuss as possible. So it's not quite 'done' to tell the world beforehand, though I have told my mom. :))

 

MamaSheep, I do agree that the church has gotten WAY better at squashing rumor and speculation. IMO the speculation (and its complete demolishment) around the priesthood ban for blacks taught us a good lesson, but it's one we've been trying to learn for a long time. I sometimes look back at some of the things my seminary teachers said and boggle. At the time, when one told us something weird, I usually just shrugged and thought it sounded like nonsense and paid no attention. (I'm from a town where an awful lot of people are loopy. I don't know why that is. But my seminary teachers were excellent specimens.)

[MamaSheep]

Thank you for opening such an interesting and educational thread Mamasheep! I've learned so much reading the questions and answers, and it was refreshing to see such respect throughout. :)

 

Great job, ladies!!!!

 

I am glad that so many people have felt free to ask their questions. I hope in the future people will feel free to start their own threads when they have questions about what we believe. Really, we don't bite. (Much...mwahahahaaa!) And I, too, deeply appreciate the respect that has been shown here.

 

I kind of feel like I should apologize to my fellow LDS friends here for springing all this on them and then not being in here much myself. You guys have been amazing! I really thought I'd have more time to spend here today, but things being what they are at my house, I sometimes have a hard time predicting how intensely I will be needed from day to day. I love my family, but they can be a bit needy at times. Anyhow, thanks so much, dear sisters, for jumping in and doing such a wonderful job.

[Amira]

I kind of feel like I should apologize to my fellow LDS friends here for springing all this on them and then not being in here much myself. You guys have been amazing! I really thought I'd have more time to spend here today, but things being what they are at my house, I sometimes have a hard time predicting how intensely I will be needed from day to day. I love my family, but they can be a bit needy at times. Anyhow, thanks so much, dear sisters, for jumping in and doing such a wonderful job.

 

This was the most fun (and the most interesting time) I've had on the boards recently. Fascinating in so many ways. Thanks for starting it.

[MamaSheep]

This thread is moving at warp speed! I should get off and get ready for church too. . . we go back to the 9 a.m. block tomorrow.

 

We're switching to 11, much to the delight of my older children, but we'll only be on that time for three weeks, because we're moving soon. Personally, I can't abide going to church at 11, but I suppose it's better than the 8 AM and 3 PM slots we had in one ward. Or the 3:45-6:45 PM slot my mom had with five little children in 1980. I can't even imagine.

 

Oh I hate the 11:00 time slot, especially with small children; it cuts right through lunch and naptime.

 

I like 1-4 also. I'm really trying not to crow about the fact that we'll get to choose when we have church for the next few years because we'll have it at home. Guess I didn't succeed. :)

 

We're moving to the 1-4 slot this year too. Whew! It's my favorite.

 

When I was a kid we had church at our house. It wasn't just our family, there were a few others in the area who also came. We rearranged the couch, loveseat, diningroom chairs and a few folding chairs we had into rows. That was back in the days before the block schedule, so it was just sacrament meeting. We had primary at Sister L's house on Wednesday afternoons, and I think I remember Mom going to RS on Tuesdays at someone else's house. Later, as the branch grew, we met in a rented space where Dad and some of the other men went a bit early to clean up the cigarrette butts left by the folks who used the building during the week. And I remember how happy everyone was when the building fund policies changed and we were able to get our very own little "phase 1" chapel. My little sister was the first person baptized in our little font (we had to drive an hour to the closest ward building when I was baptized) but that was before it was dedicated. My little brother was the first baptized after the dedication. I don't know if it's just your family in your situation, but your comment about church at home certainly brought back memories for me. :)

[MamaSheep]

If the LDS church made rules for all possible situations, the "tithing handbook of answers" (my made-up name) would be a legalistic tome bigger than the US tax code. My eyes were seriously opened once I started my own business. I didn't have a regular salary. I didn't have income tax withholding, etc. I had to pursue answers in prayer about how to fulfill my tithing obligation. At the end of each year we have a process called "tithing settlement" in which we talk with our Bishop about tithing and he asks a simple question, roughly "does this constitute a full tithe?" It's left between you and the Lord. The Bishop records it and that's that.

 

As far as your friends go, it may be more complicated than you think. For instance, if they work for a company and the company provides them a car, do they pay tithing on what an equivalent lease would be? (The US tax code makes you pay taxes on that as income, but less than half of LDS membership is in the US now.) What if they own their own business and pay for a car that's used for business out of business funds? What about my case in which I have a 50/50 partner -- is the cost of leasing office space tithable income? Do I pay only half of it?

 

This is a great question, and I suspect you'll get slightly different answers from each LDS you ask. Each of us believes we'll stand before the Lord someday to make an accounting of what we did with our talents and stewardships. Rather than attempt to chronicle all the minutia, LDS leadership has left it up to the Lord to say what an honest or full tithe is.

 

I know what you mean about being in business for yourself throwing a loop in the whole thing. Yes, it's one of those things where as long as you're good with your own conscience that's good enough for the church. And I'm glad, because as you say, taxes are hard enough. Gah!

[Alenee]

Here are a couple of questions I have...I don't think they were asked or answered.

 

1. Someone mentioned something about Satan would've wanted to force everyone to do good/go to Heaven...did I misread that? If not (or if so) please explain where that idea comes from.

 

2. Is baptism for the dead the only reason for the Mormon church's focus on genealogy?

 

3. If Mormons don't believe in the Holy Trinity, or as one person said, worship Heavenly Father but then Jesus to a lesser degree, why is there a painting of Jesus in just about every Mormon home, as well as a Nativity scene up year-round? Is this in an effort to remind yourself that your works get you to Celestial Heaven, thereby meaning you really have no need of a Savior?

 

I don't mean to sound insulting, and am very happy that this thread was started because I've had nearly all of these same questions, but someone said that we (general we that call ourselves Christians) really do believe basically the same things that the Mormons do. I couldn't disagree more. I'm not saying that to start a debate but to address that comment in particular. I've read some anti-Mormon literature and these answers are exactly what was in them...nothing that was answered here differs from that literature. It just really is different from what Protestants generally believe. I do sincerely appreciate the time and care you ladies (and a few gents) have taken in answering all of the questions and I hope that the thread will continue, understanding that I feel like I'm walking on egg-shells by being honest, NOT NOT trying to start a debate.

[Veritaserum]

Dh said he recently saw a poll that put the pay tithing on gross vs. net at 55%/45%. I don't know how accurate a poll it was, though. :)

 

We are moving to 1pm church tomorrow and it's my least favorite block. I like 9am better, followed by 11. My favorite start time is 10am, but that's not an option when you're in a building with three wards. There was a time that the building in California (where I grew up) had six units. The block schedule was 8, 10, 12, 2, 4, and a branch that met at 6 (I think they just had Sacrament meeting). It was so good when a second building was built.

[Amira]

Here are a couple of questions I have...I don't think they were asked or answered.

 

1. Someone mentioned something about Satan would've wanted to force everyone to do good/go to Heaven...did I misread that? If not (or if so) please explain where that idea comes from.

 

2. Is baptism for the dead the only reason for the Mormon church's focus on genealogy?

 

3. If Mormons don't believe in the Holy Trinity, or as one person said, worship Heavenly Father but then Jesus to a lesser degree, why is there a painting of Jesus in just about every Mormon home, as well as a Nativity scene up year-round? Is this in an effort to remind yourself that your works get you to Celestial Heaven, thereby meaning you really have no need of a Savior?

 

I don't mean to sound insulting, and am very happy that this thread was started because I've had nearly all of these same questions, but someone said that we (general we that call ourselves Christians) really do believe basically the same things that the Mormons do. I couldn't disagree more. I'm not saying that to start a debate but to address that comment in particular. I've read some anti-Mormon literature and these answers are exactly what was in them...nothing that was answered here differs from that literature. It just really is different from what Protestants generally believe. I do sincerely appreciate the time and care you ladies (and a few gents) have taken in answering all of the questions and I hope that the thread will continue, understanding that I feel like I'm walking on egg-shells by being honest, NOT NOT trying to start a debate.

 

Don't worry. No one here is going to get offended. Direct questions are more interesting anyway. And I agree there are some major differences in doctrine between us and other Christians, but there are also many similarities too. We've focused a lot more on the differences in this thread.

 

1. To me, it's not so much that Satan would force us to be good, but instead he said he wanted us all to be saved no matter what. His plan as outlined would have removed the necessity of a Savior and the atonement, because there would have been no sin and no free will. His plan was designed to deceive. (I added the reference below.)

 

2. Yes, performing temple ordinances is the reason for doing family history. I imagine without that that we might still be encouraged to look at our genealogy, but I can't think of any doctrinal reason why we would.

 

3. I have nativities in my house and pictures of Jesus to remind me of Him, one of the members of the Godhead and my Savior. He is the Son of God. Without Him I cannot return to Heavenly Father, no matter what I do. I am saved by his grace, because I can never do enough to save myself. I do not know if I can state His importance to me any more strongly, because I am nothing without his grace. I worship Jesus differently than I do God, but he is not lesser.

 

 

----------------

Moses 4:1-4 (Moses is in our Pearl of Great Price, a collection of scriptural revelations to Joseph Smith and other writings)

 

1And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

 

2But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

 

3Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

 

4And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Amira
Found the reference

[Veritaserum]

Here are a couple of questions I have...I don't think they were asked or answered.

 

1. Someone mentioned something about Satan would've wanted to force everyone to do good/go to Heaven...did I misread that? If not (or if so) please explain where that idea comes from.

 

2. Is baptism for the dead the only reason for the Mormon church's focus on genealogy?

 

3. If Mormons don't believe in the Holy Trinity, or as one person said, worship Heavenly Father but then Jesus to a lesser degree, why is there a painting of Jesus in just about every Mormon home, as well as a Nativity scene up year-round? Is this in an effort to remind yourself that your works get you to Celestial Heaven, thereby meaning you really have no need of a Savior?

 

I don't mean to sound insulting, and am very happy that this thread was started because I've had nearly all of these same questions, but someone said that we (general we that call ourselves Christians) really do believe basically the same things that the Mormons do. I couldn't disagree more. I'm not saying that to start a debate but to address that comment in particular. I've read some anti-Mormon literature and these answers are exactly what was in them...nothing that was answered here differs from that literature. It just really is different from what Protestants generally believe. I do sincerely appreciate the time and care you ladies (and a few gents) have taken in answering all of the questions and I hope that the thread will continue, understanding that I feel like I'm walking on egg-shells by being honest, NOT NOT trying to start a debate.

 

1. In the premortal existence there were two factions and two plans. Satan's plan was for everyone to come to Earth and get a body, but for it to be impossible for anyone to choose sin. Satan also wanted everyone to glory him instead of Heavenly Father. The other plan was Christ's. Everyone omes to Earth to get a body, but everyone is free to choose whether or not to follow Heavenly Father. Jesus wanted the glory to be given to Heavenly Father. Jesus would atone for the sins of everyone, thereby making it possible for us to return to Heavenly Father. The reason why Christ's plan was better is because agency (free will) is more valuable than almost anything else.

 

2. I wouldn't say it's the only reason, but it is an important one. We also like to discover the relationships and histories that form our families.

 

3. I'm confused by this question. We absolutely, unequivocally believe that we need Jesus Christ, our Savior, in order to return to Heavenly Father. Our works do not get us into "Celestial Heaven". Our works plus our faith plus Christ are what make that possible. :) We value Christ's enormous sacrifice and love him for it. Pictures of him remind us of the price he paid and help us remember to follow his teachings. I imagine other Christians feel the same way when they see their own pictures of him or a cross, etc. I have no idea what you mean about nativity scenes being up all year. Ours go away after Christmas. :)

[Xuzi]

An anology a great Sunday School teacher once shared with me about the whole faith vs. works thing in the LDS faith goes as follows:

 

We're all drowning at sea. We're in over our heads, and too far from shore and too weak to possibly swim back, so someone (the Savior) throws us a life ring. Some of us can do no more than hang on and allow ourselves to be pulled in. Others will be able to swim, and get to the shore faster, building muscle strength and endurance along the way. Some will get to shore quicker than others. But reguardless of how quickly you got to shore, or whether you helped or not, nobody would say you saved yourself. It was all due to the lifering (Atonement) thrown to us by the Savior.

 

The Lord said "If ye love me, keep my commandments". We show our love for Him by obeying the commandments as revealed to us in Scripture. None of us are perfect at it, of course, but the Lord knows our hearts. He knows when we're sorry, and when we're in rebellion. He knows when we're trying and struggling, and when we just don't care what He thinks, we're going to have our fun anyway. We don't need to be 100% perfect 100% of the time. But He wants to know that we love Him, and He'll help us achieve greater things than we could possibly achieve on our own.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Xuzi

[dangerdad]

3. If Mormons don't believe in the Holy Trinity, or as one person said, worship Heavenly Father but then Jesus to a lesser degree, why is there a painting of Jesus in just about every Mormon home, as well as a Nativity scene up year-round? Is this in an effort to remind yourself that your works get you to Celestial Heaven, thereby meaning you really have no need of a Savior?

 

I don't mean to sound insulting

Not insulting at all! Honest questions are welcome, not insulting.

 

I think you're referring to this comment:

We only worship Heavenly Father (and, to a lesser extent, Christ). If he was like us (mortal) and there are other gods in other universes or something (hard to imagine, lol), it doesn't change the fact that we only worship Him.

 

The word "worship" can be a bit loosey-goosey. We pray to the Father in the name of the Son, and are influenced by the power of the Holy Ghost. We don't pray to Jesus, because we believe that He taught to pray to the Father in His name. (See Matthew 6:6-13, John 15:16, 16:23, and in the book of Mormon in 3 Nephi 18:19-21.) We believe Jesus is our Savior, Redeemer and Exemplar, just as the rest of Christendom, hence His prominence in LDS paintings, nativity, etc. We cannot enter into Heaven without the saving grace of Christ. We do believe that to accept His grace we must do as He asked--receive the ordinance of baptism by water by one with authority, strive to keep his commandments and repent when we fail, etc.

 

Because we don't have a formalized catechism, we often don't have defintions quite as precise as other churches. The part of Trinitarian doctrine we reject is the idea of "homoousious" (the greek word constructed during the Arian controversy to mean "same-substance"). We see the three personages of the Trinity (we typically use the term Godhead) as one, but their one-ness does not diminish their separateness of personage. (Side note: many protestants I've talked with think of the three personages in a way that was techincally defined as the heresy of "modalism" which is a way to wrap your head around the one-ness of God.) We also reject the councils of Chalcedon, etc. which more formally define the man-ness and God-ness of Christ, etc.

 

(Thinking of Christ as "lesser" is an important part of what split the western and eastern churches -- if you're familiar with the "filioque clause" then you know what I'm talking about. If you're not, the wikipedia entry is actually pretty good. We tend not to sweat stuff at this level of detail. Personally, I find the history of the Ecumenical Councils to be fascinating, but most LDS (and I suspect most Christians generally) don't delve into them into great detail because they tend not to impact our daily life.)

Edited January 2, 2011 by dangerdad
fix links

[dangerdad]

 

1. In the premortal existence there were two factions and two plans. Satan's plan was for everyone to come to Earth and get a body, but for it to be impossible for anyone to choose sin. Satan also wanted everyone to glory him instead of Heavenly Father. The other plan was Christ's.

Slight correction: it was the Father's plan, in which Jesus answered the call to be the Savior.

[Melinda in VT]

3. If Mormons don't believe in the Holy Trinity, or as one person said, worship Heavenly Father but then Jesus to a lesser degree, why is there a painting of Jesus in just about every Mormon home, as well as a Nativity scene up year-round? Is this in an effort to remind yourself that your works get you to Celestial Heaven, thereby meaning you really have no need of a Savior?

 

(Just to clarify, I'm the Melinda who is a former Mormon, not the Melinda who posted earlier in this thread who is currently a Mormon.)

 

First of all, I have never been in a Mormon home where the Nativity scene stayed up all year. (I spent 20 years as a Mormon in the Pacific Northwest and 10 years as a Mormon in Utah. Almost all of my relatives and ILs are Mormon. I've been in a lot of Mormon homes.)

 

Second, I've never heard a Mormon say that they have no need of a Savior. It's just not Mormon theology.

 

Let me just apologize in advance for the weakness of the following analogy. I'm going back and forth on whether or not to post it, but I'll go ahead in the hopes that it helps someone.

 

Consider a building with 50 stories. The only way to get to the 40th floor is an elevator. The only way to get from the 40th floor to the 50th floor is a set of stairs. Jesus is the elevator. :tongue_smilie: The temple ordinances are the set of stairs. People can focus on the stairs and come away with the idea that they got to the top by themselves. But their efforts would mean nothing without the elevator that got them to the staircase.

 

Yes, Mormon theology is that without temple ordinances, one cannot get to the celestial kingdom. But the Celestial kingdom is only a possibility because of the atonement and resurrection of Jesus.

[Sara in AZ]

Here are a couple of questions I have...I don't think they were asked or answered.

 

1. Someone mentioned something about Satan would've wanted to force everyone to do good/go to Heaven...did I misread that? If not (or if so) please explain where that idea comes from.

 

2. Is baptism for the dead the only reason for the Mormon church's focus on genealogy?

 

3. If Mormons don't believe in the Holy Trinity, or as one person said, worship Heavenly Father but then Jesus to a lesser degree, why is there a painting of Jesus in just about every Mormon home, as well as a Nativity scene up year-round? Is this in an effort to remind yourself that your works get you to Celestial Heaven, thereby meaning you really have no need of a Savior?

 

 

 

I'm linking to a chapter in the Book of Mormon that gives an excellent explanation of how Satan factors into Heavenly Father's plan and the need for opposition in all things to give us the opportunity to choose and learn and grow. The chapter also touches on your third question and unequivocally states our dependence on Jesus as our Savior and his atonement and resurrection in order to be saved and return to the presence of God.

 

http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/2.11?lang=eng#10

 

Also, per the church website, Jesus Christ is ultimately our judge:

 

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=3d077c2fc20b8010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

 

Okay, and because it's the middle of the night and I have an ear infection and I can't sleep and I'm doing all this web searching....one more really great website that describes all the roles and attributes of Jesus Christ and makes it incredibly clear how much we need him!:

 

http://www.mormonwiki.com/Jesus_Christ

[Sara in AZ]

2. Is baptism for the dead the only reason for the Mormon church's focus on genealogy?

 

 

 

This question brings up some thoughts I have that I'm not sure have been previously or thoroughly addressed. It's important to understand that when someone "goes through" the temple for the first time, they are receiving the ordinances for themselves. Every other time they go back they are doing proxy work and receiving the ordinances in place of someone who has died.

 

Yes, it's basically true that we focus so much on genealogy in order to perform proxy baptism's for our dead ancestors because that is an essential saving ordinance. However, baptism is not the only ordinance performed in the Temple. There are several other ordinances we perform work for for the dead, including sealing families together for eternity. It's stated better here, again from the church's website:

 

"On April 3, 1836, the prophet Elijah came to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple. He conferred upon them the sealing power of the priesthood, making it possible for families to be sealed throughout the generations. In conferring this power, he fulfilled the prophecy that the Lord would send him “to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers†(see D&C 110:14-16; see also Malachi 4:5-6).

 

Through family history work, we can participate in the continuing fulfillment of this prophecy. We can learn about our ancestors and increase our love for them. We can be inspired by their stories of courage and faith. We can pass that legacy on to our children.

 

These are lasting benefits that come from family history work, but they are not the principal reasons for the Church's great effort to gather genealogical records. All of the Church's family history endeavors are directed to the need to form a “welding link—between the fathers and the children†(D&C 128:18). This welding link is formed by the power of the priesthood, through sacred temple ordinances we receive in behalf of our ancestors."

 

 

Both my husband and I come from very long lines of LDS church members, so a lot of family history work has already been done, which is my poor excuse for not getting as involved with it at this point in my life! So we tend to focus in our family on getting to know the stories of our ancestors, partially so that we can learn from their lives and examples, but also because we believe that we are connected to these people for eternity and will have the opportunity to meet them and live with them again and thus want learn as much about them as we can.

[Soror]

The matter is between the husband, the wife, and the Lord, but the theology of the Church emphasizes the importance of families, so you will find larger-than-normal families.

How about abortion is that between husband and wife?

[Xuzi]

How about abortion is that between husband and wife?

 

An abortion for convenience is considered a sin, but there are exceptions.

From the church website:

 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in the sanctity of human life. Therefore, the Church opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience, and counsels its members not to submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions.

The Church allows for possible exceptions for its members when:

• Pregnancy results from rape or incest, or

• A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy, or

• A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

 

[learning2gether]

I have learned quite a bit from this thread. I lurk here a lot but don't often post, but this is a subject I had been trying to learn about anyway so I am really enjoying this.

 

Let's talk Brigham Young. Was he a prophet? I talked with the friend I mentioned earlier this morning and told her about this thread. She asked if he had been mentioned. She is currently a Mormon and this is what she said "Brigham Young took the Church in a direction that Joseph Smith would not recognize if he came back today". This surprised me because she is a member of the church today. I asked what she meant, but I won't go into all of it because I like the way this thread is going and some of it could be hurtful. She did say that the way JS practiced polygamy was very different from BY. She also said that BY never claimed to be a prophet but said that others say he was a prophet.

 

I know this is a silly question but on Big Love (I know they aren't LDS) they cross their arms over their chest when praying. Why is this?

[Xuzi]

I have learned quite a bit from this thread. I lurk here a lot but don't often post, but this is a subject I had been trying to learn about anyway so I am really enjoying this.

 

Let's talk Brigham Young. Was he a prophet? I talked with the friend I mentioned earlier this morning and told her about this thread. She asked if he had been mentioned. She is currently a Mormon and this is what she said "Brigham Young took the Church in a direction that Joseph Smith would not recognize if he came back today". This surprised me because she is a member of the church today. I asked what she meant, but I won't go into all of it because I like the way this thread is going and some of it could be hurtful. She did say that the way JS practiced polygamy was very different from BY. She also said that BY never claimed to be a prophet but said that others say he was a prophet.

 

I know this is a silly question but on Big Love (I know they aren't LDS) they cross their arms over their chest when praying. Why is this?

Yes, Brigham Young was a prophet. I really don't know what your friend meant about his "taking the church in a direction Joseph Smith would not recognize". :confused: The only difference I can see with the polygamy thing is that it's pretty well established that he actually had sexual relations with his wives (he fathered children with them and shared a home with them), whereas there's no conclusive evidence, other than heresay, that Joseph Smith ever consumated his plural marriages (DNA tests on some of the decendents of his supposed plural-wife children hasn't shown a family link yet).

 

I've read biographies of both men, and don't really see how BY did anything that JS wouldn't have liked.

 

And yes, we do fold our arms across our chests when we pray. I have no clue why, but I know it's no big deal if you fold your arms any other way. I see lots of pictures in church publications of people praying with their hands clasped in front of them, and some LDS families who I've prayed with have clasped eachother's hands during prayer, as I see many other Christian families do.

[dangermom]

I have learned quite a bit from this thread. I lurk here a lot but don't often post, but this is a subject I had been trying to learn about anyway so I am really enjoying this.

 

Let's talk Brigham Young. Was he a prophet? I talked with the friend I mentioned earlier this morning and told her about this thread. She asked if he had been mentioned. She is currently a Mormon and this is what she said "Brigham Young took the Church in a direction that Joseph Smith would not recognize if he came back today". This surprised me because she is a member of the church today. I asked what she meant, but I won't go into all of it because I like the way this thread is going and some of it could be hurtful. She did say that the way JS practiced polygamy was very different from BY. She also said that BY never claimed to be a prophet but said that others say he was a prophet.

I'm gathering that she has issues with polygamy, then? For myself, I'd agree that BY was a different man than Joseph. But I certainly believe that he was a prophet called of the Lord, and he loved Joseph very much--he also had really different things to deal with. I don't agree that Joseph Smith "wouldn't recognize" the church today, but right now I have to run away and get ready for church. :001_smile:

 

I know this is a silly question but on Big Love (I know they aren't LDS) they cross their arms over their chest when praying. Why is this?

I've never seen it, so I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but the usual LDS way to pray--especially for children--is to fold your arms and bow your head. I suspect that we teach kids to do that in order to keep them from wiggling TOO much. ;) We aren't strict about it, and adults often just clasp their hands together. We don't usually hold hands for prayer outside the family circle, nor do we usually press the hands together in the traditional Catholic way, but there's not much in the way of rules about it--as long as you're reverent, you're good.

[DianeW88]

Here are a couple of questions I have...I don't think they were asked or answered.

 

1. Someone mentioned something about Satan would've wanted to force everyone to do good/go to Heaven...did I misread that? If not (or if so) please explain where that idea comes from.

 

2. Is baptism for the dead the only reason for the Mormon church's focus on genealogy?

 

3. If Mormons don't believe in the Holy Trinity, or as one person said, worship Heavenly Father but then Jesus to a lesser degree, why is there a painting of Jesus in just about every Mormon home, as well as a Nativity scene up year-round? Is this in an effort to remind yourself that your works get you to Celestial Heaven, thereby meaning you really have no need of a Savior?

 

I don't mean to sound insulting, and am very happy that this thread was started because I've had nearly all of these same questions, but someone said that we (general we that call ourselves Christians) really do believe basically the same things that the Mormons do. I couldn't disagree more. I'm not saying that to start a debate but to address that comment in particular. I've read some anti-Mormon literature and these answers are exactly what was in them...nothing that was answered here differs from that literature. It just really is different from what Protestants generally believe. I do sincerely appreciate the time and care you ladies (and a few gents) have taken in answering all of the questions and I hope that the thread will continue, understanding that I feel like I'm walking on egg-shells by being honest, NOT NOT trying to start a debate.

 

1. Satan's plan was to bring glory to himself. It was all about him. He was fundamentally opposed to everything our Father in Heaven wanted for his children and no, he didn't want to do good. Exactly the opposite...hence the "war in Heaven".

 

2. Yes and no. Obviously we want all of our families to have the opportunity to hear and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. However, we also think the family is an important gift given to us by God. "Families are forever" as we often say, and we want to learn about our ancestors, simply because they are part of us. I love hearing stories about my great grandparents, their struggles, their triumphs, etc. We love looking at photos to see where we came from and to notice family traits ("Oh, look, you have grandma's eyes!"). We do geneaology simply because we love our families.

 

3. We have pictures of Jesus Christ because he is our Lord and Savior. He is the ONLY way we can gain salvation. Yes, we believe in good works. We believe our Father in Heaven has given us commandments and we believe He expects us to obey them. That is how we show our faithfulness. He wants our broken hearts and our contrite spirits. He wants us to acknowledge Christ and His atonement and to know that it is only because of the life, death and resurrection of His son that we can hope to live in His presence again. I do good works because I love my Heavenly Father and I want to please Him. However, I also know that I can do good works 24/7 and am still powerless to save myself. I am only admitted to heaven after death because of the mercy of Jesus Christ and His suffering and atonement for my sins. He is my Savior. He is the way, the truth and the life. He is my God.

 

BTW...we only have a nativity scene up at Christmas. Don't know of any LDS people who have one out year round.

 

Also, you don't sound insulting. We appreciate honest questions and are always happy to answer them. Like many other ladies have said, we really aren't trying to hide anything and we know we're different. We just appreciate the opportunity to answer your questions. So, keep asking! :)

Edited January 2, 2011 by DianeW88

[dangermom]

1. Satan's plan was to bring glory to himself. It was all about him. He was fundamentally opposed to everything our Father in Heaven wanted for his children and no, he didn't want to do good. Exactly the opposite...hence the "war in Heaven".

 

 

To elaborate on this, I think it would probably be helpful if we could manage to get the whole story told in order. Which I don't have time to do right now, but if anyone isn't leaving for church in 30 minutes, feel free! :) But I'd like to add to it that while Lucifer did announce this alternate plan of having everyone forced to never sin, thus saving everyone, so he should get the glory--it's not actually a plan that would have worked. He pretty much just wanted to take over and be in charge instead of God--it's more of a coup attempt than an actual plan.

 

If you follow the logic of his plan, you see that if no one is ever allowed to choose, then no one can actually be righteous. No one can learn. Everyone would be 'stuck' and unable to grow. There could be no heaven, no joy, no love under such a plan. Take Christ, Heavenly Father, and choice out of the equation, and there's nothing left.

[Veritaserum]

To elaborate on this, I think it would probably be helpful if we could manage to get the whole story told in order. Which I don't have time to do right now, but if anyone isn't leaving for church in 30 minutes, feel free! :) But I'd like to add to it that while Lucifer did announce this alternate plan of having everyone forced to never sin, thus saving everyone, so he should get the glory--it's not actually a plan that would have worked. He pretty much just wanted to take over and be in charge instead of God--it's more of a coup attempt than an actual plan.

 

If you follow the logic of his plan, you see that if no one is ever allowed to choose, then no one can actually be righteous. No one can learn. Everyone would be 'stuck' and unable to grow. There could be no heaven, no joy, no love under such a plan. Take Christ, Heavenly Father, and choice out of the equation, and there's nothing left.

Good idea. Here is a link to a Church manual discussing premortal life (Insitute is a once-a-week class for college-aged adults). It lays out the two plans as well:

 

http://institute.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/doc-gosp-01-10-6.asp

 

From the link:

 

See Doctrine and Covenants 93:29.

 

B. We lived as spirit children of God in a premortal existence.

1. God is the father of the spirits of all mankind (see Hebrews 12:9 ; D&C 76:24 ; Acts 17:29 ; Romans 8:16 ).

2. Our spirit bodies are in the form of God’s physical body (see D&C 77:2 ; Ether 3:6–16 ).

3. Our instruction and preparation for earth life began in the world of spirits (see D&C 138:56 ).

4. God gave us agency in the premortal life (see Moses 4:3 ; D&C 29:36 ).

5. Many became noble and great in the premortal world (see Abraham 3:22–25 ; Jeremiah 1:4–6 ; Alma 13:3–5 ).

 

C. God the Father provided the plan of salvation by which His spirit children could eventually become like Him.

1. God’s plan of salvation was taught to His spirit children (see Abraham 3:24–27 ).

2. Jesus Christ was chosen and foreordained to come to earth to perform the atoning sacrifice (see 1 Peter 1:19–20 ; Moses 4:2 ; Revelation 13:8 ; Abraham 3:27 ).

3. Lucifer, a spirit in authority in the presence of God, sought the glory and honor of God and the elimination of the agency of the children of God (see Moses 4:1–3 ; D&C 76:25–28 ; Isaiah 14:12–14 ).

4. Lucifer’s rebellion against God caused a war in heaven (see Revelation 12:7 ; D&C 76:25–29 ).

5. One-third of the spirits were cast out of heaven because they chose not to keep their first estate (see Abraham 3:27–28 ; D&C 29:36–38 ; 2 Peter 2:4 ; Revelation 12:8–9 ).

6. All who kept their “first estate” (premortal life) were promised that they would “be added upon” (which includes receiving mortal bodies). All who keep their second estate will have “glory added upon their heads for ever and ever” ( Abraham 3:26 ).

Edited January 2, 2011 by Veritaserum
Add quotes from the link.

[MamaSheep]

Here are a couple of questions I have...I don't think they were asked or answered.

 

1. Someone mentioned something about Satan would've wanted to force everyone to do good/go to Heaven...did I misread that? If not (or if so) please explain where that idea comes from.

 

2. Is baptism for the dead the only reason for the Mormon church's focus on genealogy?

 

3. If Mormons don't believe in the Holy Trinity, or as one person said, worship Heavenly Father but then Jesus to a lesser degree, why is there a painting of Jesus in just about every Mormon home, as well as a Nativity scene up year-round? Is this in an effort to remind yourself that your works get you to Celestial Heaven, thereby meaning you really have no need of a Savior?

 

I don't mean to sound insulting, and am very happy that this thread was started because I've had nearly all of these same questions, but someone said that we (general we that call ourselves Christians) really do believe basically the same things that the Mormons do. I couldn't disagree more. I'm not saying that to start a debate but to address that comment in particular. I've read some anti-Mormon literature and these answers are exactly what was in them...nothing that was answered here differs from that literature. It just really is different from what Protestants generally believe. I do sincerely appreciate the time and care you ladies (and a few gents) have taken in answering all of the questions and I hope that the thread will continue, understanding that I feel like I'm walking on egg-shells by being honest, NOT NOT trying to start a debate.

 

I know this has already been answered pretty thoroughly, but I wanted to just chime in on that last one too. (And also to say that your questions are not at all insulting. :grouphug:)

 

We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separate beings working in unity, and that the Father presides within the group, but I wouldn't say that we believe the Son is "lesser" than the Father or that He is less important to us. All three are equally divine and powerful, but the Son and the Holy Ghost willingly submit to, and cooperate with, the will of the Father. He calls the shots, but not because he is "greater", just because amongst the three, He is in charge, so to speak. Each member of the Godhead fills a somewhat different role. Oversimplifying somewhat, the Father is the ultimate ruler of the universe, the lawgiver and judge. He has established a plan whereby we can become more like Him. He provided us with a Savior so we could return to Him, and the Holy Ghost as a constant guide on the journey. The Son is our Savior, our Redeemer, our Mediator at the throne of judgment. He suffered the punishment for the sins of all mankind. Through Him, and ONLY through Him, we can return to the Father and become whole and complete. Without Him we are nothing. Worse than nothing. The Holy Ghost testifies to us of the Father and the Son, teaches us in our minds and hearts, comforts us in our sorrows, and guides us to the Son for forgiveness and mercy, and can convey messages from the Father directly to our minds and hearts. All three are equally precious to us. But we pray only to the Father, in Jesus's name, because this is what we believe Jesus taught us to do.

 

Obedience to God is an outward expression of our faith in Christ, but the actions themselves are not what "save" us. Even temple ordinances (which Melinda mentioned) are pretty worthless if all you're doing is going through the motions. It's not what you "do" on the outside that is really important there, but what it "means" on the inside. The ordinances incorporate internal commitments, or covenants, that we make with God, and forming a closer relationship with Him. Done properly faith and works are not separate things. Our faith shows in our "fruits". Faith without works is dead. Works without faith are equally dead. There is no path to salvation except through Christ. Period. And in the temple, all the symbolism (and there's a LOT of it) points us to Christ.

 

As far as pictures, figurines, needlepoints or whatevever that you might see in an LDS home that represent Christ, I think it's pretty safe to say that we do this to remind us of the price He paid for us, of His teachings, and of the commitments we have made to Him, to take His name upon us and follow His teachings as best we can, repenting when we mess up. And inevitably we do mess up. They're not icons, and we don't venerate them, but they are good reminders and symbols of Christ and all He means to us.

 

And I've never heard of keeping a nativity up all year, that's a new one on me. Ours goes away after Christmas, and I don't know anyone who leaves it up all year. At least not that I've noticed. But I suppose somebody might, and it could certainly be a good way to remind ourselves and our families of our precious Savior throughout the year.

 

Regarding anti-Mormon literature, yes, some of the information in it is quite accurate, especially when it comes to things the authors think have shock value, and which are often things that are not considered essential in LDS theology, and therefore are not talked about frequently in church, where we tend to focus very heavily on the essentials, and might not be as well known, especially by new members who are still getting oriented. Often there are also a lot of half-truths that come close enough to what we really teach to sound convincing, but then have a nasty little nugget buried somewhere in it that throws the whole thing way off track--but the true part 'sells' the nugget. Sometimes there are glaring inaccuracies, such as the idea that Mormons think we can earn our own salvation and reject Christ as Savior. That's WAY off. (And it's the kind of thing that bugs me in anti-LDS literature because 5 minutes talking to a real Mormon or poking around the church website would clear that up. It doesn't bug me when people ask me about it, because it's one of the things that is very common in such literature, and people who don't know any better read about it and have no reason not to believe what the book says. But if you're going to write a book that claims to tell all about something, it seems like a little basic research would be in order. I mean, look how easy it was for you to find out what we really believe about Jesus.) On this thread, you're right, a lot of the questions have focused on areas where we differ from most other Christians, though there are also many areas in which we would very closely agree. There are, however, some very important and distinctive differences, you are right. Maybe it would help for you to know that when we say we are Christian, we don't mean we are Christian 'just like everyone else', we mean that we are devoted disciples of Christ. And when people ask us not to identify ourselves as Christians, it feels to us as if we are being asked to separate ourselves from Christ, or to deny Him, and that we cannot and will never do. He is our Savior and we're not going to distance ourselves from Him. Does that help at all with what you were wondering?

Edited January 2, 2011 by MamaSheep

[MamaSheep]

3. What is the Church's stand on how the BOM was interpreted? I have read that JS was somehow able to understand Egyptian written on Gold tablets but then was told by the same friend that he put a seer stone inside his hat and put his face into the hat. She said that he supposedly used the same stone to find burried treasure.

 

Thanks again.

 

Now that things have slowed down a bit there's more time to look things up, and I thought you might like a more thorough answer to this question. This article on the church website (it was in a church magazine a few years back, and the magazines are all online) addresses this question:

 

http://lds.org/ensign/1997/01/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god?lang=eng

[MamaSheep]

To elaborate on this, I think it would probably be helpful if we could manage to get the whole story told in order. Which I don't have time to do right now, but if anyone isn't leaving for church in 30 minutes, feel free! :) But I'd like to add to it that while Lucifer did announce this alternate plan of having everyone forced to never sin, thus saving everyone, so he should get the glory--it's not actually a plan that would have worked. He pretty much just wanted to take over and be in charge instead of God--it's more of a coup attempt than an actual plan.

 

If you follow the logic of his plan, you see that if no one is ever allowed to choose, then no one can actually be righteous. No one can learn. Everyone would be 'stuck' and unable to grow. There could be no heaven, no joy, no love under such a plan. Take Christ, Heavenly Father, and choice out of the equation, and there's nothing left.

:iagree: Heavenly Father wanted us to learn and grow and fulfill all of our potential and Christ was willing to die for us in order to see that happen, and both wanted us to be allowed to choose whether to worship them or not. Satan's plan was to take Heavenly Father's place and make us all into mindless slaves worshipping him.

[Xuzi]

:iagree: Heavenly Father wanted us to learn and grow and fulfill all of our potential and Christ was willing to die for us in order to see that happen, and both wanted us to be allowed to choose whether to worship them or not. Satan's plan was to take Heavenly Father's place and make us all into mindless slaves worshipping him.

Mamasheep, I don't know what thread it was in, but you had an excellent post a month or so ago about God allowing us to experience trials from a place of "ultimate safety" (because Christ would make up for our falling short of His Glory). I thought it was such a great summary of LDS belief of "Why are we here?" We're here to learn and grow. "For behold, this is my work and my glory - to bring to pass the immortality and eternal Life of man." (Moses 1:39) Heavenly Father didn't create us on a whim, or because He wanted a bunch of worshipers. He is all loving, and wants to share His joy with others. Part of that involves passing through sorrow and facing temptation so that we can learn to recognize the Good from the Evil. We cannot truely appreciate how good God is and wonderful being in His presense will be unless we've seen the alternative. We glorify Him for His wonderful Plan, and the evidence of His Infinate love for us in sending His Son to redeem us from the sin we would inevitably fall into in this world. I am so grateful for all that he has done, is doing, and will do for me and my family and all the people of the world. He is both Just and Merciful and I glory in His Grace.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Xuzi

[TKDmom]

Geez, I tried to be good and stay away from these forums for a whole day, and look what you guys started! I had to spend all evening and half of the morning catching up.

 

MamaSheep, thanks for starting this. I have thought about starting a thread like this on several occasions, but it felt too much like volunteering to stand in front of a firing squad. :tongue_smilie: Hopefully, members of this forum will feel more comfortable starting new threads when they have more questions in the future.