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Let's talk Brigham Young. Was he a prophet? I talked with the friend I mentioned earlier this morning and told her about this thread. She asked if he had been mentioned. She is currently a Mormon and this is what she said "Brigham Young took the Church in a direction that Joseph Smith would not recognize if he came back today". This surprised me because she is a member of the church today. I asked what she meant, but I won't go into all of it because I like the way this thread is going and some of it could be hurtful. She did say that the way JS practiced polygamy was very different from BY. She also said that BY never claimed to be a prophet but said that others say he was a prophet.

 

I know this is a silly question but on Big Love (I know they aren't LDS) they cross their arms over their chest when praying. Why is this?

 

I would say that each Prophet in his turn has had his own leadership style. Some have had definite focus--for example, President Gordon B. Hinckley (who preceded our current, Thomas S. Monson) was very involved in the building of temples around the world. During his time as President of the Church, the number of LDS temples more than doubled. We believe the Prophet is called of God, and leads by inspiration from God and that the work he does during his time as President is what the Lord intends for the current period of our Church.

 

Folding arms--I think it's just a 'cultural' LDS thing. We just bow our heads and fold our arms/clasp our hands/hold hands with our families during prayer to sort of center ourselves and focus on the prayer.

 

To elaborate on this, I think it would probably be helpful if we could manage to get the whole story told in order. Which I don't have time to do right now, but if anyone isn't leaving for church in 30 minutes, feel free! :) But I'd like to add to it that while Lucifer did announce this alternate plan of having everyone forced to never sin, thus saving everyone, so he should get the glory--it's not actually a plan that would have worked. He pretty much just wanted to take over and be in charge instead of God--it's more of a coup attempt than an actual plan.

 

If you follow the logic of his plan, you see that if no one is ever allowed to choose, then no one can actually be righteous. No one can learn. Everyone would be 'stuck' and unable to grow. There could be no heaven, no joy, no love under such a plan. Take Christ, Heavenly Father, and choice out of the equation, and there's nothing left.

 

Yes. Alma 42 (in the Book of Mormon) is a really great discussion on this.

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And I've never heard of keeping a nativity up all year, that's a new one on me. Ours goes away after Christmas, and I don't know anyone who leaves it up all year. At least not that I've noticed. But I suppose somebody might, and it could certainly be a good way to remind ourselves and our families of our precious Savior throughout the year.

 

:D This made me giggle...I received a beautiful nativity set for Christmas last year and just couldn't bring myself to put it away right after Christmas since I hadn't gotten to enjoy it very long...so I did leave it out all year long! I'm probably the lone Mormon to have ever done this though--it's certainly not a common thing. I'm sure any visitors to my home thought I was nuts...but I loved looking at it throughout the year! And it did remind me of what a gift our Savior is! Not quite sure if I'll put it away this year or leave it out. Maybe I'll start a new tradition in our family!

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Also regarding the War in Heaven, here is the entry from the LDS Bible Dictionary. I'm just going to cut and paste because of all the links to scripture:

War in Heaven

 

War in Heaven. This term arises out of Rev. 12:7 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth. The issues involved such things as agency, how to gain salvation, and who should be the Redeemer. The war broke out because one-third of the spirits refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the Savior. Such a refusal was a rebellion against the Father’s plan of redemption. It was evident that if given agency, some persons would fall short of complete salvation; Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who passed through mortality, without regard to individual preference, agency, or voluntary dedication (see Isa. 14:12–20; Luke 10:18; Rev. 12:4–13; D&C 29:36–38; Moses 4:1–4). The spirits who thus rebelled and persisted were thrust out of heaven and cast down to the earth without mortal bodies, “and thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29:37; see also Rev. 12:9; Abr. 3:24–28).

The warfare is continued in mortality in the conflict between right and wrong, between the gospel and false principles, etc. The same contestants and the same issues are doing battle, and the same salvation is at stake.

Although one-third of the spirits became devils, the remaining two-thirds were not all equally valiant, there being every degree of devotion to Christ and the Father among them. The most diligent were chosen to be rulers in the kingdom (Abr. 3:22–23). The nature of the conflict, however, is such that there could be no neutrals, then or now (Matt. 12:30; 1 Ne. 14:10; Alma 5:38–40).

 

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Does the LDS church advocate the use of corporal punishment by parents? I don't want to start any debates on whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, just trying to determine whether there's a theological basis for my observations that Mormon families tend to be very much pro-CP.

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Does the LDS church advocate the use of corporal punishment by parents? I don't want to start any debates on whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, just trying to determine whether there's a theological basis for my observations that Mormon families tend to be very much pro-CP.

 

No. The Church pretty much leaves discipline up to the parents. However, our previous President, Gordon B. Hinckley made some openly anti-spanking statements. I've also noticed more of an encouragement towards gentle discipline in articles about parenting in the Ensign (which is the Church's monthly magazine for adults, in addition to The New Era for teens and The Friend for children, and The Liahona for members outside the US/North America).

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Does the LDS church advocate the use of corporal punishment by parents? I don't want to start any debates on whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, just trying to determine whether there's a theological basis for my observations that Mormon families tend to be very much pro-CP.

No. Infact, our previous Prophet, Gordon B. Hinkley, spoke a lot about being careful about even raising our voices with our children. We should teach them right from wrong, and discipline them certainly, but that our children should never have reason to doubt our love for them. I even recall him saying that we should never have any reason to raise our hands to our children (and I think he even came out rather clearly against spanking, but that may just have been how I "heard" the "no raising your hand" bit, as I'm rather anti-spanking, personally :tongue_smilie:)

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No. The Church pretty much leaves discipline up to the parents. However, our previous President, Gordon B. Hinckley made some openly anti-spanking statements. I've also noticed more of an encouragement towards gentle discipline in articles about parenting in the Ensign (which is the Church's monthly magazine for adults, in addition to The New Era for teens and The Friend for children, and The Liahona for members outside the US/North America).

Posting at the same time. :001_smile: Yes, most of the articles in the church's magazines that relate to parenting seem to have a strong focus on gentle discipline. I read "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn (who is not LDS) a few years ago, and a lot of the advice in there was very similar to the advice given in talks and addresses from church leaders.

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Does the LDS church advocate the use of corporal punishment by parents? I don't want to start any debates on whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, just trying to determine whether there's a theological basis for my observations that Mormon families tend to be very much pro-CP.

 

No, not at all. If anything, my impression is that the ideal (non-existent) Mormon woman would be more like Ma Ingalls. I know my friends and I from church somtimes sit around at playgroups and bemoan our inability to control our tempers when dc start acting up. Sigh.

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No. Infact, our previous Prophet, Gordon B. Hinkley, spoke a lot about being careful about even raising our voices with our children. We should teach them right from wrong, and discipline them certainly, but that our children should never have reason to doubt our love for them. I even recall him saying that we should never have any reason to raise our hands to our children (and I think he even came out rather clearly against spanking, but that may just have been how I "heard" the "no raising your hand" bit, as I'm rather anti-spanking, personally :tongue_smilie:)

 

Here's one quote that I know of off the top of my head (and I know there are more):

 

I don’t believe that children need to be beaten, or anything of that kind. Children can be disciplined with love. They can be counseled—if parents would take the time to sit down quietly and talk with them. Tell them the consequences of misbehaving, of not doing things in the right way. The children would be better off, and I think everyone would be happier. My father never touched us. He had a wisdom all his own of quietly talking with us. He turned us around when we were moving in the wrong direction, without beating us or taking a strap to us or any of that kind of business. I’ve never been a believer in the physical punishment of children. I don’t think it is necessary.

Complete article here.

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No, not at all. If anything, my impression is that the ideal (non-existent) Mormon woman would be more like Ma Ingalls. I know my friends and I from church sit around and bemoan our inability to control our tempers when dc start acting up.

:lol: I was thinking more Michelle Duggar (except she'd make funeral potatoes instead of tater-tot casserole ;) )

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:lol: I was thinking more Michelle Duggar (except she'd make funeral potatoes instead of tater-tot casserole ;) )

 

Ha! You know, I was a RS President up until a few months ago, and we must have had half a dozen funerals during that time. I never could bring myself to actually ask someone to make funeral potatoes... :tongue_smilie:

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And we are always at 9am because we share the building with the young singles ward and they like to sleep in! I'm getting a new calling tomorrow and it's going to be REALLY different for me. I've never worked in this auxiliary before. Eep.

 

Soo? Are you going to tell us? You should be home from church by now. ;)

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I think I'm still a bit confused. How could God have lived as a man before he created Earth? And, then, how could he have commanded Jesus to create Earth if he were not conceived of until he were born of the Virgin Mary? I'm really trying to wrap my head around a different way of seeing the old testament:grouphug:.

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Soo? Are you going to tell us? You should be home from church by now. ;)
I'm home! I had to stay afterwards for the setting-apart stuff and there were a lot of us, as there was a a little bit of shake-up in the ward today.

 

I'm the Relief Society secretary, and I've never ever served in RS before. I've hardly even BEEN to RS in the last 10+ years as I've been in Primary for nearly all of it. I have only a very vague idea of how RS runs. I'm looking forward to it--but I'm a little trepidatious too.

 

(Translation: I'm the secretary of the women's organization, which is over all the women, humanitarian aid, a lot of the welfare, and I don't even know what. I had to stay afterwards to be set apart, which is when you have a new calling, the bishopric lays their hands on your head and confirms you in the job with a blessing.)

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Ha! You know, I was a RS President up until a few months ago, and we must have had half a dozen funerals during that time. I never could bring myself to actually ask someone to make funeral potatoes... :tongue_smilie:

 

LMHO...I'm in the RS presidency now, and it's not a funeral in our Utah ward unless the funeral potatoes are there. People look forward to them. :lol: However, I also ask for salads and we have had sooooo many delicious salad donations, I now ask for the recipes, too.

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congrats on your new position, Dangermom!

 

I've been quietly following along. I had a good friend my last couple of years in the service who was LDS and I actually attended services with her quite a few times (it was something to do on Sunday afternoon when we were in port). Between attending those services, talking with her, and talking to the missionaries there in Japan, I learned quite a lot.

 

I also have a soft spot for LDS missionaries, because on at least one occasion a pair of them kept my sister from getting beat up by her boyfriend at the time.

 

Anyway, I did have a couple of questions. One of them is, what is the reason for the LDS tendency towards big families?

 

The other is based on something DH mentioned. He said it's in the news that the LDS church could be in a good deal of legal/financial trouble for its funding of the coalition that got Prop 8 on the ballot and passed in California. Obviously, the LDS church opposes gay marriage, but he said gay people who can't fit themselves into the heterosexual mold/plan are usually excommunicated. Is this, to your knowledge, the case?

 

Finally, is excommunication always permanent, or is there some provision for "starting over" with one's relationship with God in the LDS context?

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congrats on your new position, Dangermom!
:) Thanks!

 

Anyway, I did have a couple of questions. One of them is, what is the reason for the LDS tendency towards big families?

I guess we just like kids? We do tend to see having children as a religious duty, as well as just fun, and we believe that it's a good idea to have as many kids as we can reasonably handle. So I have two. :D Perhaps someone with more kid cred than I have can comment further.

 

The other is based on something DH mentioned. He said it's in the news that the LDS church could be in a good deal of legal/financial trouble for its funding of the coalition that got Prop 8 on the ballot and passed in California. Obviously, the LDS church opposes gay marriage, but he said gay people who can't fit themselves into the heterosexual mold/plan are usually excommunicated. Is this, to your knowledge, the case?

I don't know much about the legality angle, so cannot comment. I don't think anyone expects a homosexual person to try to become straight (any more--in the 60's/70's this was sometimes tried, with awful results--happily the world is a little less ignorant about that these days) and have a family. Here is an article by an apostle that tackles the topic. You can't be excommunicated (or anything else) simply for being homosexual. Having sexual relations outside marriage is fornication whether you are straight or gay--and I don't think simple fornication is an excommunication-able sin all on its own. Clearly this puts people in a bind, and we struggle with that.

 

Finally, is excommunication always permanent, or is there some provision for "starting over" with one's relationship with God in the LDS context?

No, it does not have to be permanent at all. A person who is excommunicated for serious sin would ideally work with the bishop to repent and eventually come back into full fellowship with the Church. Re-baptism can happen after a minimum of a year. They try to use it as a tool to encourage repentance, as sort of a wake-up call. If a person has to be excommunicated for a second time, that is permanent--but you never know what might happen in the future. We always hope for repentance and reconciliation.

 

I should also note that excommunication and its less-serious cousin, disfellowship, are always very confidential things. I would not know if anyone in my ward was going through those things, unless I was involved somehow.

 

(As an example, a man I knew when I was a teen committed some serious crimes. It turned out that he had been excommunicated once before, gone through psychological counseling, and been re-baptized. When the second round happened, he skipped town to avoid arrest, spent years in jail, and had to be excommunicated a second time. AFAIK that's the end of the line for him in the LDS Church, though of course he can always attend services and I hope that he repents fully.)

 

3littlekeets, I'm not ignoring you--I'm getting there!

Edited by dangermom
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I think I'm still a bit confused. How could God have lived as a man before he created Earth? And, then, how could he have commanded Jesus to create Earth if he were not conceived of until he were born of the Virgin Mary? I'm really trying to wrap my head around a different way of seeing the old testament:grouphug:.

 

We believe that we all existed as spirits before we came to earth, including Jesus. We were learning and growing then too. One of the things Jesus did before He was born on earth was to create it. If God lived as a man before he was God, I don't think it could have been on this earth.

 

I agree it can be confusing. And weird. Again, the nature of God is still mostly mysterious to us and it's not a clear doctrine.

Edited by Amira
Clarity and returning my first-draft phrasing
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When I was a kid we would sometimes hear on the a radio about something done by the LDS. I always felt like applauding. This was because I thought they were the Later Day Saints. A group of religious people who were also big Procrastinators. To this day when I hear about the LDS I almost want to clap as a way of saying, "Way To Go, you got something done! You didn't put it off for a LATER DAY!"

 

So why is the group called "Latter-Day Saints?"

 

That cracks me up. I'm glad you're proud of us for getting something done. :lol:

 

The name of the church has "Latter-day Saints" in it to distinguish this current organization from the Church Jesus set up in his day ("former day," if you will). We believe it's all The Church of Jesus Christ, but the latter-day part just clarifies that we are living in the last days and this is the last time Christ's church will need to be organized on the earth.

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I think I'm still a bit confused. How could God have lived as a man before he created Earth?
Though would presumably have been before the creation of our...universe? Something like that. So far back that we don't really know about it.

 

And, then, how could he have commanded Jesus to create Earth if he were not conceived of until he were born of the Virgin Mary?
This is one of those places where we really differ from mainstream Christianity; we believe in the pre-mortal existence of souls. (Origen did too; so did some other early Church Fathers. They used to argue about it.) All of us lived as spirits with Heavenly Father before the earth was created, and Jesus was the first-born son, the Father's right-hand man, at that time. The Father commanded him to create the earth, and he did. He also volunteered to be our Savior. The need for a Savior was known and planned for before Adam and Eve lived in the Garden, before any of us were born.
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That cracks me up. I'm glad you're proud of us for getting something done. :lol:

 

The name of the church has "Latter-day Saints" in it to distinguish this current organization from the Church Jesus set up in his day ("former day," if you will). We believe it's all The Church of Jesus Christ, but the latter-day part just clarifies that we are living in the last days and this is the last time Christ's church will need to be organized on the earth.

 

:iagree: Yep, we are the church of the later days, instead of the former days. :001_smile:

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I wasn't sure if pre-exsistance had been mentioned in the thread yet and didn't want to ask if I hadn't read the whole thread, which I don't think I have time to do, this thread is LONG!

 

Can you explain pre-existance a little more in detail?

 

Do LDS believe:

 

We were ALL physically born to a wife of God? Or how were we "born?" If so, how were the wives born?

Do the souls in pre-existance know they will be asked to be reborn on earth? Why can't they just stay in paradise?

Is there any idea of how many souls are still up there and need spirit bodies? I know LDS have said that is why they have so many children, to give the pre-existing souls spirit bodies (I think that is the term.)

 

I know I will have more questions, but this is a start.

 

Dawn

 

 

 

This is one of those places where we really differ from mainstream Christianity; we believe in the pre-mortal existence of souls. (Origen did too; so did some other early Church Fathers. They used to argue about it.) All of us lived as spirits with Heavenly Father before the earth was created, and Jesus was the first-born son, the Father's right-hand man, at that time. The Father commanded him to create the earth, and he did. He also volunteered to be our Savior. The need for a Savior was known and planned for before Adam and Eve lived in the Garden, before any of us were born.

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Can you explain pre-existance a little more in detail?

 

Do LDS believe:

 

We were ALL physically born to a wife of God? Or how were we "born?" If so, how were the wives born?

Do the souls in pre-existance know they will be asked to be reborn on earth? Why can't they just stay in paradise?

Is there any idea of how many souls are still up there and need spirit bodies? I know LDS have said that is why they have so many children, to give the pre-existing souls spirit bodies (I think that is the term.)

 

Dawn

 

We believe we were all spiritually created by God before we were physically born on earth. I don't know at all how that process worked, but I believe my spirit existed long before I was born. After were created, but before we came to earth, we began to learn and progress.

 

Yes, we believe that anyone who is born on earth chose to be born here. That was part of following Jesus. We believe there were many spirits who chose not to come to earth, and they won't.

 

The place our spirits lived before birth was not paradise (although I imagine it was very nice). Paradise is where you can go after you die. Our spirits need to come to earth to receive a physical body and to be tested and learn. We cannot continue to progress without that, so not being born means being stuck.

 

I don't know if there is a finite number of spirits that will come to this earth. Maybe there are a lot more, maybe not. We do believe we will continue to raise families during the Millennium after Jesus returns and many more spirits will come to the earth then.

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Mamasheep, I don't know what thread it was in, but you had an excellent post a month or so ago about God allowing us to experience trials from a place of "ultimate safety" (because Christ would make up for our falling short of His Glory). I thought it was such a great summary of LDS belief of "Why are we here?" We're here to learn and grow. "For behold, this is my work and my glory - to bring to pass the immortality and eternal Life of man." (Moses 1:39) Heavenly Father didn't create us on a whim, or because He wanted a bunch of worshipers. He is all loving, and wants to share His joy with others. Part of that involves passing through sorrow and facing temptation so that we can learn to recognize the Good from the Evil. We cannot truely appreciate how good God is and wonderful being in His presense will be unless we've seen the alternative. We glorify Him for His wonderful Plan, and the evidence of His Infinate love for us in sending His Son to redeem us from the sin we would inevitably fall into in this world. I am so grateful for all that he has done, is doing, and will do for me and my family and all the people of the world. He is both Just and Merciful and I glory in His Grace.

Amen! (I don't remember what thread that was either, but I do vaguely remember saying something like that.)

 

Geez, I tried to be good and stay away from these forums for a whole day, and look what you guys started! I had to spend all evening and half of the morning catching up.

 

MamaSheep, thanks for starting this. I have thought about starting a thread like this on several occasions, but it felt too much like volunteering to stand in front of a firing squad. :tongue_smilie: Hopefully, members of this forum will feel more comfortable starting new threads when they have more questions in the future.

I did feel the rifles aimed at my blindfold and I almost deleted it several times.:lol: I'm really glad it's been such a friendly thread.

 

:D This made me giggle...I received a beautiful nativity set for Christmas last year and just couldn't bring myself to put it away right after Christmas since I hadn't gotten to enjoy it very long...so I did leave it out all year long! I'm probably the lone Mormon to have ever done this though--it's certainly not a common thing. I'm sure any visitors to my home thought I was nuts...but I loved looking at it throughout the year! And it did remind me of what a gift our Savior is! Not quite sure if I'll put it away this year or leave it out. Maybe I'll start a new tradition in our family!

 

You know, I got to thinking in chuch today that one of the sisters I visit teach has a collection of nativities, and she does keep them in a glass display case in her living room. Maybe if she was the only Mormon someone knew, that could look a little weird. But it's just her hobby, y'know? I forgot about her when I said I didn't know anyone who leaves a nativity up all year. If you're going to have a collection, nativities seem like a good thing to collect. Another friend collects birdhouses, and a dearly beloved relative who likes to cook collects pigs in chef hats. No religious significance. ;)

 

ETA: A friend in a former ward collected "cow" items. Her whole house was decorated in cow. She did me an unimaginably huge favor once and when I was looking for a cow-related thank you gift I lucked into a huge box of fudge--shaped like a cow pie. We had us a seriously good laugh together over that one.

Edited by MamaSheep
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When I was a kid we would sometimes hear on the a radio about something done by the LDS. I always felt like applauding. This was because I thought they were the Later Day Saints. A group of religious people who were also big Procrastinators. To this day when I hear about the LDS I almost want to clap as a way of saying, "Way To Go, you got something done! You didn't put it off for a LATER DAY!"

 

So why is the group called "Latter-Day Saints?"

 

Ahem...I resemble that remark!

 

I'm a dreadful procrastinator. One of these days I'm going to have to work on that.

 

It looks like the responses to this so far have mostly focused on the "latter-day" part, so I thought I'd comment a little on the "saints" part.

 

As I understand it, the word "saint" is translated as such in the Bible from a Greek word that means something that is holy, set apart or consecrated to the Lord for a sacred purpose. It was used in New Testament times to refer to those who had become pure through baptism and had been received into the Christian church by covenant. In other words, members of the church established by Jesus Christ. We use the term in the same way--people who have been received by the covenant of baptism into the church of Jesus Christ. It isn't intended to imply that we think there's anything particularly special about us or that we think we're in any way better than anyone else.

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We believe that we all existed as spirits before we came to earth, including Jesus. We were learning and growing then too. One of the things Jesus did before He was born on earth was to create it. We also believe that God would have lived on a different earth or planet when He was a man.

 

Any clearer? I agree it can be confusing. And weird. Again, the nature of God is still mostly mysterious to us and it's not a clear doctrine.

 

I wanted to bold this part of Amira's post. (sorry Amira. :tongue_smilie:) All we know about God is what He's chosen to reveal to us in his words to us via Scriptures and the Prophets.

 

The part of Amira's post that I put in blue is not something I've ever heard taught in church, and I feel confident in saying that it's not doctrine, but rather speculation.

 

I'm sorry Amira, if this is this embarasses you, but I just had to say that there's no official doctrine on where God lived, or if he lived on another planet as a man, or anything at all like that. We only know that His Works are One Eternal Round. Time is a man-made construct, so I can't imagine explaining how God came to be God is anything our mortal minds could ever grasp.

 

(and really really REALLY I'm not saying this to embarass or chastize you! just wanted to make it clear to the other posters here when some of us [and I'm guilty of it too] go off into speculation rather than straight doctrine)

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My answers in blue.

 

I wasn't sure if pre-exsistance had been mentioned in the thread yet and didn't want to ask if I hadn't read the whole thread, which I don't think I have time to do, this thread is LONG!

 

Can you explain pre-existance a little more in detail?

 

Do LDS believe:

 

We were ALL physically born to a wife of God? Or how were we "born?" If so, how were the wives born?

 

There is no doctrinal answer to this question. All we really know is that we are Eternal beings who started out as Intelligences (Doctrine and Covenants 138) who became Spirit children of the Father, and then were sent here to Earth.

 

Do the souls in pre-existance know they will be asked to be reborn on earth? Why can't they just stay in paradise?

 

Because it's not God's plan for us to remain stagnant in the pre-existance. He wants us to learn and to grow and learn for ourselves the difference between Good and Evil, and that could not happen while we were in His Presense, where no Evil can exist. He wants us to progress, and we could progress no further in His presense, and our learning and growth here in mortality is the next step for our progression.

 

Is there any idea of how many souls are still up there and need spirit bodies? I know LDS have said that is why they have so many children, to give the pre-existing souls spirit bodies (I think that is the term.)

 

 

We have no idea. It is in LDS Scripture (the book of Moses, I believe) that God has created "worlds without number". I doubt we could begin to count how many children He has, or how many have yet to born into mortal existance.

 

I know I will have more questions, but this is a start.

 

Dawn

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I wasn't sure if pre-exsistance had been mentioned in the thread yet and didn't want to ask if I hadn't read the whole thread, which I don't think I have time to do, this thread is LONG!

 

Can you explain pre-existance a little more in detail?

 

Do LDS believe:

 

We were ALL physically born to a wife of God? Or how were we "born?" If so, how were the wives born?

Do the souls in pre-existance know they will be asked to be reborn on earth? Why can't they just stay in paradise?

Is there any idea of how many souls are still up there and need spirit bodies? I know LDS have said that is why they have so many children, to give the pre-existing souls spirit bodies (I think that is the term.)

 

I know I will have more questions, but this is a start.

 

Dawn

Different LDS people believe different things about some of these things. The truth is, God has not revealed very much information about that time. I suppose there is good reason for having us forget, and telling us all about it in detail would probably defeat that purpose.

 

So we understand that the divine image (in which man was created) includes both male and female, and we have been told that there is a Mother in heaven as well as a Father. We have no information that I am aware of, and I've looked, as to whether God has only one wife, or more than one. We have no information about the process of the creation of spirits, except that there is one verse that says that intelligence is self-existent and cannot be created or made; from this some LDS draw the conclusion that we existed as something called "intelligences" before we were 'begotten' as spirits, much as we existed as spirits before those spirits were placed in physically 'begotten' spiritual bodies. But you don't have to believe this, and as far as I know there is no official doctrine as to how spirits are procreated. It's one of the 'mysteries' that God has not yet chosen to share with us. Presumably a wife, or wives of God would have come from the same place the Father came from. We have no specific information about that, but God exists eternally, so would His wife, and we, as His children, are also eternal beings. It is difficult to discuss origins of eternal things. I, personally, suspect that this is because we don't yet comprehend fully how time operates in relation to eternity.

 

We can't just stay in paradise because that would be stagnation. Kind of like grown-ups can't just stay in kindergarten, no matter how appealing naps and cookies and fingerpainting may be, and we eventually want our children to grow up and move out and be adults, and think it would be sad for them to spend their whole lives sitting at home raiding the fridge and playing video games all day. It would be such a waste of human potential.

 

We don't know how many children Heavenly Father has, or plans to send to live on Earth. There's not any kind of race to get them all down here, or anything. God is in charge, and if He wants them here, He'll get them here. I can't speak to why other people have kids, or want large families, and maybe this response sounds strange coming from me because I have only two, but my kids are amazing people, I feel so honored to have such a close relationship and connection with them, and I look forward to maintaining that connection as they move through life and hopefully have families of their own, to whom I will also have that family connection. I love the connection I share with my parents and my six siblings, and how even when we're annoyed at each other, we're still THERE for each other, y'know? And my relationship with my husband is even deeper. These relationships are in large part my most precious treasures, and they are (joy of joys) the kind of treasures I can have for all eternity--they don't rust or rot or break or shrivel up and die (unless I let them). These people I share my life with are incredible beings. I'd love to share that bond with more amazing people if I could. I think I'd love to have a dozen or so kids...at least five or six. When you find a good thing, you want more.

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Ok - I have a question :D

 

What are "funeral potatoes" :rofl:

 

I hear mention of them all the time and I've even heard them mentioned during GC. I know they are part of Mormon culture in the US - but I'm Aussie LDS and seriously have no clue :001_huh:

 

Pics???

Recipies???

Is it something I would want to eat :drool5:

 

We don't do the jello salads over here either - which I will admit sound pretty :ack2: to me LOL

 

What are we missing out on :D

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Ok - I have a question :D

 

What are "funeral potatoes" :rofl:

 

I hear mention of them all the time and I've even heard them mentioned during GC. I know they are part of Mormon culture in the US - but I'm Aussie LDS and seriously have no clue :001_huh:

 

Pics???

Recipies???

Is it something I would want to eat :drool5:

 

We don't do the jello salads over here either - which I will admit sound pretty :ack2: to me LOL

 

What are we missing out on :D

 

Funeral potatoes are a casserole-type dish made with shredded hashbrowns and shredded cheddar cheese. You use some kind of cream in the base (sour cream, a creamed soup, etc.). There are many variations and recipes. My grandma puts potato chips on the top for a little crunch. My family eats funeral potatoes (AKA cheesy potatoes) with ham at Easter. Yummy, but not a great, healthy option. :)

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Ok - I have a question :D

 

What are "funeral potatoes" :rofl:

 

I hear mention of them all the time and I've even heard them mentioned during GC. I know they are part of Mormon culture in the US - but I'm Aussie LDS and seriously have no clue :001_huh:

 

Pics???

Recipies???

Is it something I would want to eat :drool5:

 

We don't do the jello salads over here either - which I will admit sound pretty :ack2: to me LOL

 

What are we missing out on :D

 

Yes, definitely choose funeral potatoes over the shredded-carrot-and-green-Jello salad.

 

Here's a link to the first recipe I found online. It is similar to the recipe I use (although I make them only once a year or so).

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I wanted to bold this part of Amira's post. (sorry Amira. :tongue_smilie:) All we know about God is what He's chosen to reveal to us in his words to us via Scriptures and the Prophets.

 

The part of Amira's post that I put in blue is not something I've ever heard taught in church, and I feel confident in saying that it's not doctrine, but rather speculation.

 

I'm sorry Amira, if this is this embarasses you, but I just had to say that there's no official doctrine on where God lived, or if he lived on another planet as a man, or anything at all like that. We only know that His Works are One Eternal Round. Time is a man-made construct, so I can't imagine explaining how God came to be God is anything our mortal minds could ever grasp.

 

(and really really REALLY I'm not saying this to embarass or chastize you! just wanted to make it clear to the other posters here when some of us [and I'm guilty of it too] go off into speculation rather than straight doctrine)

 

No, I agree I should have written that differently, or left it to someone else because it's not "what we believe." I was mostly trying to clarify that I don't believe that God ever lived on this earth as a man, since He was God before this earth was created. I'll edit that above because I didn't phrase it well at all.

 

I would like to point out for anyone still reading this that a lot of what we've talked about in this thread isn't what we talk about a lot in church. We rarely talk about the nature of God, or what we were like before coming to earth, or what we will be like after we die except in the most general way. I think I said earlier that we've talked a lot about what is different about us in this thread instead of what is similar to other churches.

Edited by Amira
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No, I agree I should have written that differently, or left it to someone else because it's not "what we believe." I was mostly trying to clarify that we don't believe that God ever lived on this earth as a man, since He was God before this earth was created. I'll edit that above.

 

I would like to point out for anyone still reading this that a lot of what we've talked about in this thread isn't what we talk about a lot in church. We rarely talk about the nature of God, or what we were like before coming to earth, or what we will be like after we die except in the most general way. I think I said earlier that we've talked a lot about what is different about us in this thread instead of what is similar to other churches.

 

That is true. :) In Sunday School today our topic was Isaiah 61 and John 1. We are launching a study on Christ's Earthly ministry. In Relief Society (the women's meeting that happens during the third hour of church), we talked about following God's promptings given us via the Holy Ghost.

 

A lot of stuff in this thread is hardly ever or even never focused on as a topic of discussion at Church. :)

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That is true. :) In Sunday School today our topic was Isaiah 61 and John 1. We are launching a study on Christ's Earthly ministry. In Relief Society (the women's meeting that happens during the third hour of church), we talked about following God's promptings given us via the Holy Ghost.

 

A lot of stuff in this thread is hardly ever or even never focused on as a topic of discussion at Church. :)

 

We had the same Sunday School lesson (nearly everyone in the church had the same one this week) and in Relief Society we talked about setting goals that help us become what God wants us to become. In Sacrament Meeting, which is the main worship service, we had a testimony meeting where people in the congregation stood to witness their belief in Jesus and the gospel. We do that on the first Sunday of every month.

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I'm home! I had to stay afterwards for the setting-apart stuff and there were a lot of us, as there was a a little bit of shake-up in the ward today.

 

I'm the Relief Society secretary, and I've never ever served in RS before. I've hardly even BEEN to RS in the last 10+ years as I've been in Primary for nearly all of it. I have only a very vague idea of how RS runs. I'm looking forward to it--but I'm a little trepidatious too.

 

(Translation: I'm the secretary of the women's organization, which is over all the women, humanitarian aid, a lot of the welfare, and I don't even know what. I had to stay afterwards to be set apart, which is when you have a new calling, the bishopric lays their hands on your head and confirms you in the job with a blessing.)

 

You'll have a good time with it. The RS president will handle the most "sensitive" stuff. Untangling visiting teaching assignments can be quite a challenge. I hear. Every time I've been in a RS presidency I've been in charge of planning those now defunct "Homemaking Meetings". Not my forte', but I learned a lot. I was briefly a stake RS secretary, but then had issues with my first pregnancy and they took pity and released me before I really got oriented to the job. That was a "relief" indeed at the time...lol. At present I'm the assistant ward librarian, though I'm there more than the actual ward librarian (she has good reasons to be gone, and I'm glad they got her an assistant). It's just my speed right now. Primary was the last place I was before that too. I have to say, I'm glad not to be teaching in there anymore. Not only was it one more darn lesson to prep and teach, which it seems like I do all day, every day lately, and it's nice to have a day off, but also I have been going through a bit of an infertility rough patch (in other words it really bums me out, and having decided to take a break from trying to adopt after 3 unsuccessful years has brought a lot of that to the surface of late) and hanging with other people's little darlings is a bit of a strain for me just now. So it's nice to have a calling where all I have to do is show up and make copies and hand out crayons, and glue stick,s and chalk, and extra Bibles, and pictures of Jesus healing the sick or whatever, and then go home--no planning, no prep, no fuss, no muss.

 

Though would presumably have been before the creation of our...universe? Something like that. So far back that we don't really know about it.

 

This is one of those places where we really differ from mainstream Christianity; we believe in the pre-mortal existence of souls. (Origen did too; so did some other early Church Fathers. They used to argue about it.) All of us lived as spirits with Heavenly Father before the earth was created, and Jesus was the first-born son, the Father's right-hand man, at that time. The Father commanded him to create the earth, and he did. He also volunteered to be our Savior. The need for a Savior was known and planned for before Adam and Eve lived in the Garden, before any of us were born.

 

Hey, are you the one who said earlier in the thread that you enjoy reading the early church fathers? If so, I wish you would come over to JenniferB's new social group and go through Justin Martyr with me. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/group.php?groupid=133

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We had the same Sunday School lesson (nearly everyone in the church had the same one this week) and in Relief Society we talked about setting goals that help us become what God wants us to become. In Sacrament Meeting, which is the main worship service, we had a testimony meeting where people in the congregation stood to witness their belief in Jesus and the gospel. We do that on the first Sunday of every month.

I was filling in for someone in Primary today and taught the 8-9 year old class. The lesson was familiarizing them with the New Testament (since that is the book of Scripture we'll be focusing on this year), helping them understand what is contained in it (epistles, or letters, of the apostles to members of the ancient Church), why it's important that we read it (it's Christ's earthly ministry!) and then getting them started on memorizing the names of the books, and making sure they understood that when someone writes or says "Matt. 11:2" they're talking about the book of Matthew, chapter 11, verse 2.

 

In Sacrament meeting a widowed mother of 9 got up and shared how she'd learned that sometimes, the greatest miracle the Savior will perform in our lives is helping us to get through another day, when we feel like we just want to stop. She shared more than that, but I can't remember her exact wording, and I'd doubt I'd do it justice. It was a very moving Testimony.

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We had the same Sunday School lesson (nearly everyone in the church had the same one this week) and in Relief Society we talked about setting goals that help us become what God wants us to become. In Sacrament Meeting, which is the main worship service, we had a testimony meeting where people in the congregation stood to witness their belief in Jesus and the gospel. We do that on the first Sunday of every month.

 

Same lesson in Sunday School here too. We have a really good teacher in there just now. I came in late because I was in the library getting the new Primary teachers squared away with copies and crayons (today was dh's first Sunday teaching a class of 4 year olds--it was funny to see how terrified he was, considering he's served in several bishoprics and has been high priests' group leader a lot too). Anyway when I came in they were talking about John's use of "Logos" in reference to Christ. There was a list on the board that clearly related to the Isaiah part, but I missed it. :( As it happened, the premortal existence did come up in the lesson, at least as far as to say that Jesus existed prior to the creation of the world--"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

 

And of course it was fast Sunday here too. My eyes still feel a bit puffy from crying in testimony meeting. I'm such a baby. Speaking of babies, my friend's new baby was blessed today. I love baby blessings. His daddy looked SO proud holding that little guy up there. On a related note (to testimony meeting and Fast Sunday, not to babies), I was so proud of ds this morning. When I rolled out of bed he was already dressed and ready to go out to collect fast offerings. No nagging required. That's a hard thing for him because he has to interact with people, and it was wonderful to see him taking the initiative. They've got him paired up with a good friend as a companion, and he picks up ds at our house, and that helps. I think it's been really good for him to get to help with that. The branch I grew up in was too spread out for that, and my brother was the only deacon at the time, so everyone just put their fast offerings in with their tithing. But I think it's been really good for ds to get out there and make himself useful.

 

And of course, since the lesson topic in Relief Society is up to the local RS presidency on the first Sundays, ours was not the same there. We talked about diligence, though it was also a good lesson on basic scripture study methods as an extra added bonus, since she had us digging in the scriptures a lot, looking up words in a dictionary, and utilizing the topical guide (there's one incorporated into the back of the LDS edition of the KJV for those who don't know; it includes references from all our 'standard works').

Edited by MamaSheep
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Well I missed Sunday School today - I was stuck in the Nursery with my adjusting 17 month old :glare: but our RS lesson was on How we can make our homes feel inviting and warm and spiritual.

I'm such a nerd in that I LOVE those kinds of lessons, where we share how to make our homes more Spiritual. I want my home so much to be a place where you just KNOW that it's a godly home, with people striving to draw closer to Him, and who love eachother -and will love you- just the way you are. It's something I really want to be able to achieve. Some days I do, and it's WONDERFUL, and some days I think my home looks more like it's travelling in a handbasket to somewhere, and taking the carpool lane. :tongue_smilie:

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You'll have a good time with it. The RS president will handle the most "sensitive" stuff. Untangling visiting teaching assignments can be quite a challenge. I hear.
Yeah, I have to learn a lot of names! And I can tell I'm going to learn a lot I didn't want to know about other people's business, even though the RSP does the most sensitive stuff.

 

Hey, are you the one who said earlier in the thread that you enjoy reading the early church fathers? If so, I wish you would come over to JenniferB's new social group and go through Justin Martyr with me. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/group.php?groupid=133

Probably that wasn't me, but I'm interested! I'll hop over and take a look, but I've already taken on a bunch of reading challenges...eep.

 

I have never eaten funeral potatoes.

 

Our RS lesson today was the presidency switch, so we had a 'get-to-know-you' thing (OK, it was Jeopardy) and testimonies.

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Yeah, I have to learn a lot of names! And I can tell I'm going to learn a lot I didn't want to know about other people's business, even though the RSP does the most sensitive stuff.

 

Yeah, that does happen. For me it was worse whenever dh was in a bishopric, though. (I think sometimes people just need to talk to someone, and when the proper person isn't available they let loose on the next closest thing.) One thing I learned for sure is that everyone struggles. No matter what public face people put on, everyone has challenges in their lives. It made me grateful to have the ones I do, and not someone else's. And it gave me so much admiration for people I barely even gave a second thought to before. And it's so much easier for me now to feel genuine compassion for people. But there are definitely times it's not easy, and you do get to know some people really well. Heh...

 

Also it made me determined never to become one of those cranky old ladies who think they've put their time in, and never have to lift a finger to help again. It was so frustrating to see all that life experience go to waste. Instead, I want to be one of the old ladies who always knows just what to do in the face of any catastrophe, and never seems flustered by life's twists and turns.

Edited by MamaSheep
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I have never eaten funeral potatoes.

 

 

I remember reading a few years ago, in book about death customs in America, that funeral potatoes aren't a Mormon thing, more an older tradition in some parts of the US. The recipe in the book was very similar to the standard Mormon recipe, which I don't like, because I think it's weird to put cornflake crumbs on anything. And I've moved way beyond casseroles.

 

Have fun with the new calling.

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Instead, I want to be one of the old ladies who always knows just what to do in the face of any catastrophe, and never seems flustered by life's twists and turns.

 

some days I think my home looks more like it's travelling in a handbasket to somewhere, and taking the carpool lane. :tongue_smilie:

 

Gosh, you ladies are lovely

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It appears this thread is winding down, with questions asked and answered. I was able to follow some of it, but not able to jump in to answer questions as my time online has been limited the past few days...and never did I imagine MamaSheep's thread would explode in such a way! I think it's great that such a respectful tone has been able to continue and hope that in all of the sharing, more understanding has come. Well done, fellow WTMers!

 

Now, I do have a few things to add. I realize that in this discussion, much of the emphasis has been on perhaps little parts of our culture or at times even of 'mysteries of the kingdom,' in other words, things that we don't have a complete knowledge of or that seem weird to others (understandably so at times). As I've been following this thread and thinking about these things the past few days, I felt like I wanted to just make a comment here about our basic beliefs...what it is that we believe in with all of our hearts. In many instances, you may find that we have a lot of common beliefs and similarities. With my friends of other faiths, I tend to look more at the beliefs we share and build from there...yes we are different, and it is so helpful to have understanding in where each of us is coming from--but it is also so wonderful and helpful to look at what we share.

 

We have two official websites where much of our beliefs are outlined: www.mormon.org (geared toward those of other faiths with questions/curiousities) and www.lds.org (with scriptures, lessons, resources used by members to teach within church and home). I'd invite any of you who may want to know what we believe (not just what we don't believe...if that makes any sense), to browse these websites and dig in to any sections that interest you.

 

Some of our basic beliefs in summary:

1-We believe in God, our Heavenly Father and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. We believe they are three separate beings; Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and bones; the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit.

2-We believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer--He is the life and the light--that only through Him can we return to live with our Heavenly Father.

3-We believe that Heavenly Father has a plan for us--called the Plan of Salvation. We all lived with Him before we came to earth. His plan was presented and we chose to follow our Savior and come to earth. After this life, we will be resurrected (because of Jesus Christ) and be judged according to our choices on earth. Our ultimate goal is to return to live with our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ again.

4-We believe in the Bible, as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe in the Book of Mormon (another testament of Jesus Christ--this is not a book about Mormons, but a book testifying of Christ as our Savior)

5-We believe that when Christ was on the earth, He established His church. After his death & resurrection, his apostles continued the work of the church, until they all died or were martyred. This time then came to be known as an apostasy--we believe the priesthood power and Christ's church was taken from the earth. Many years later, this power was restored through the prophet Josepeh Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ was restored in the Latter-days (hence the name of our church).

6-We believe that Heavenly Father continues to lead us through a living prophet of God.

7-We believe families can be together forever. In our temples, when a couple is married (or 'sealed'), the phrases 'til death do we part' or 'so long as you both shall live' are not included. We believe that our families will know and love each other in the next life. This is one reason we do geneology and the reason we have temples throughout the world.

8-We believe in sharing the gospel and sending missionaries around the world to testify of Jesus Christ and bring souls unto Him.

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It appears this thread is winding down, with questions asked and answered. I was able to follow some of it, but not able to jump in to answer questions as my time online has been limited the past few days...and never did I imagine MamaSheep's thread would explode in such a way! I think it's great that such a respectful tone has been able to continue and hope that in all of the sharing, more understanding has come. Well done, fellow WTMers!

 

Now, I do have a few things to add. I realize that in this discussion, much of the emphasis has been on perhaps little parts of our culture or at times even of 'mysteries of the kingdom,' in other words, things that we don't have a complete knowledge of or that seem weird to others (understandably so at times). As I've been following this thread and thinking about these things the past few days, I felt like I wanted to just make a comment here about our basic beliefs...what it is that we believe in with all of our hearts. In many instances, you may find that we have a lot of common beliefs and similarities. With my friends of other faiths, I tend to look more at the beliefs we share and build from there...yes we are different, and it is so helpful to have understanding in where each of us is coming from--but it is also so wonderful and helpful to look at what we share.

 

We have two official websites where much of our beliefs are outlined: www.mormon.org (geared toward those of other faiths with questions/curiousities) and www.lds.org (with scriptures, lessons, resources used by members to teach within church and home). I'd invite any of you who may want to know what we believe (not just what we don't believe...if that makes any sense), to browse these websites and dig in to any sections that interest you.

 

Some of our basic beliefs in summary:

1-We believe in God, our Heavenly Father and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. We believe they are three separate beings; Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and bones; the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit.

2-We believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer--He is the life and the light--that only through Him can we return to live with our Heavenly Father.

3-We believe that Heavenly Father has a plan for us--called the Plan of Salvation. We all lived with Him before we came to earth. His plan was presented and we chose to follow our Savior and come to earth. After this life, we will be resurrected (because of Jesus Christ) and be judged according to our choices on earth. Our ultimate goal is to return to live with our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ again.

4-We believe in the Bible, as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe in the Book of Mormon (another testament of Jesus Christ--this is not a book about Mormons, but a book testifying of Christ as our Savior)

5-We believe that when Christ was on the earth, He established His church. After his death & resurrection, his apostles continued the work of the church, until they all died or were martyred. This time then came to be known as an apostasy--we believe the priesthood power and Christ's church was taken from the earth. Many years later, this power was restored through the prophet Josepeh Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ was restored in the Latter-days (hence the name of our church).

6-We believe that Heavenly Father continues to lead us through a living prophet of God.

7-We believe families can be together forever. In our temples, when a couple is married (or 'sealed'), the phrases 'til death do we part' or 'so long as you both shall live' are not included. We believe that our families will know and love each other in the next life. This is one reason we do geneology and the reason we have temples throughout the world.

8-We believe in sharing the gospel and sending missionaries around the world to testify of Jesus Christ and bring souls unto Him.

 

Thank you. I was just thinking about writing something like that. Now I don't have to. :)

 

I would like to just add that if we missed someone's question as everything whooshed by so fast, or if someone would like a little more detail than we were able to give at that speed, please feel free to ask again. And if anyone has questions about our take on things in the future, I hope you will feel free to start a thread. I'm not sure I'll have the guts to jump out in front of the train like this again, my head is still spinning...lol. But I'm always up for a polite question or two, in public or private. :)

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And if anyone has questions about our take on things in the future, I hope you will feel free to start a thread. I'm not sure I'll have the guts to jump out in front of the train like this again, my head is still spinning...lol. But I'm always up for a polite question or two, in public or private. :)

 

Same here :D It's one of the reasons I have "LDS" in my siggy!

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So, here's my question: why do LDS usually refer to the Divine as "Heavenly Father" rather than "God?" Is this part of the family-centered-culture, or just tradition, or something else? I have always found this interesting. Thanks! :)

Well, for one, he IS our Father, and the "Heavenly" part of the title makes it clear that we're not talking about our earthly father. But mainly I believe it's just tradition. I've heard Him referred to as God, God the Father, Father in Heaven, Eloheim, and other names I can't quiet remember just now.

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