Questions about the ancient churches

[8circles]

I hope that I don't offend anyone in here, I'm just going to be honest & I don't have a lot of time to post so it will be what it will be.

 

As background, I was raised & am still a member in the Evangelical Covenant Church (www.covchurch.org). It's been really puzzling to me - & frustrating & irritating, I must admit - that the word "evangelical" has come to have such a negative connotation & is defined in such a narrow way. Our doctrine is not legalistic, we don't oppress women, people of all walks of life are welcomed into our congregation, we are allowed & encouraged to use our intellect & ask questions. I could go on.

 

It's been really interesting to me to learn more about EO beliefs & it seems that many of my beliefs match-up with them & still don't contradict my church's doctrine. I understand that both the RC & EO churches believe that they are following the church that Jesus established. However, I find it very confusing that the focus is to be on Jesus, we are to follow Christ, etc, yet why would he want us to focus on other things within the church? In my mind these things would be Mary, saints, purgatory, etc - all the big stereotypical why-protestants-think-Catholics-are-wrong items. Again, I'm not trying to offend, I'm just really confused about these things & curious. Why does His church have to have all that extra stuff? Why wouldn't He just want us to follow Him?

[milovany]

Allison,

 

My initial thought is that since the Lord Jesus Christ came into the world in a material way, as a human with a body, He thereby consecrated the material world and everything is now HIS and useful in getting to know Him and His ways. Even our bodies -- which include our senses. These things that you mention help make our faith holistic -- we use all our senses in worship. We hear the bells and the chanting, we smell the incense, we touch the priest's robe and the icons, we see the icons and the movement in and about the altar, we taste the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist, etc. Participating in these things in this sacramental/mysterious way really takes the faith out of the realm of cerebrality (I made that word up) -- I think here in the west especially we try to understand everything and get everything to make sense to our minds. But relationship with God was never meant to be mind-based. It's such a treat in the Divine Liturgy to just enter into the established, ancient practices, to stop trying to figure everything out, and to be changed by it.

 

ETA: I just re-read your post and you specifically mentioned Mary, the saints, purgatory -- sorry I didn't address those specific things! But I think it all goes together -- the faith is complete; holistic. Jesus did have a mother, so because of the unique role she played in bringing God into the world we honor her; the saints lived and died for the faith and so we honor them. We don't have purgatory in EO theology, but another topic might be icons, no? We see these as "windows to heaven" -- they are the visual Scriptures in a sense. Etc.

 

Hope that's helpful. I'm sure there will be even better answers posted, but that's what it's come to for me.

Edited December 31, 2010 by milovaný

[8circles]

Thanks Milovany.

 

I'm going to be thinking about this a lot today, I appreciate your input.

[Avila]

It is about making worship more concrete and experiencing it with more than just our mind. I just second what Milovany said there.

 

The Chuch was meant to be a family. When it is all about "me and Jesus," we remove ourselves from that family and start to think of ourselves as outside the body of Christ.

 

Mary is the mother of Jesus. She was chosen among women for that role. She is special. But she always points us to Jesus, brings us to Him. Never away from Him. She is our mother too.

 

The saints are our brothers and sisters. They have gone before us and walked the path first. They have a lot to tell us about that journey. They can inspire us and show us the way.

 

And the saints are not dead. We are not praying to the dead. We are praying to the living. Christ came to bring us eternal life. Their earthly bodies have died, but they are alive in Christ. And they are connected with us through Him. Death doesn't sever that bond. So we have living, perfected souls who are in Heaven to pray for us. They don't have earthly troubles of their own, and they are perfectly in tune with the will of God. They won't lead us astray or pray for us outside His will.

 

The focus is still on Jesus. But everything else points to Him. They don't take glory for themselves. It all goes back to Him.

 

It isn't so much that we focus on these other things as that we use those things to bring us closer to Christ. They help us. Not everyone needs the same kind of help, and in 2,000 years, we have a wide variety of helps available to us -- each resounding with different spiritual issues but all pointing to Jesus.

 

Purgatory is a different issue altogether. Purgatory is nothing more than the process of a soul being cleansed. Nothing unclean can enter Heaven. Nothing impure can stand before God. Purgatory purges everything in us that is unacceptable to God so that we have room for nothing but Him. He fills us as He empties us.

[milovany]

The focus is still on Jesus. But everything else points to Him. They don't take glory for themselves. It all goes back to Him.

 

Very good summary, thank you.

[OregonNative]

:bigear:

[mcconnellboys]

You know, a lot of churches have been participating in meditation walks (Walk to Emmaus, etc.) for the past decade or two. Within the Methodist church (where I've spent most of my life) there are Chrismon symbols used at Christmas (and sometimes Easter). There are the seasons of the church year, i.e., Advent, Lent, etc. and various traditions that go along with those.

 

For me, these sorts of things, as well as reciting of prayers, creeds, the Rosary, etc. are all ways to focus our minds on what we are doing and better connect to God.

 

Now, it can certainly be true that some might get lost in the trappings and their minds may be a blank and they may fail to focus on God and just be going through the motions when they use such devices. But that could be just as true for anyone sitting in any congregation anywhere listening to a sermon, too.....

 

Only the seeker and God can know if the connection is truly being made....

[Parrothead]

It isn't so much that we focus on these other things as that we use those things to bring us closer to Christ. They help us. Not everyone needs the same kind of help, and in 2,000 years, we have a wide variety of helps available to us -- each resounding with different spiritual issues but all pointing to Jesus.

 

 

Nicely said.

[K&Rs Mom]

The best explanation I've heard is that those things *help* us follow Him. Maybe people can find the way to heaven without these extras, but if He left us a "map" in the Church, why not use it instead of thinking maybe we know a better way?

[8circles]

OK. I understand what you mean about everything pointing you to Jesus. But what if it doesn't? I mean, if I'm being honest & no disrespect meant - the descriptions of worship in the RC or EO churches doesn't appeal to me - or any of my senses. For example, incense makes me ill (physically & emotionally) & I don't understand why we have to think abut Mary at all, even thought she is special - I find it very distracting.

 

So, while the doctrine of theRC & EO churches would allow (I think) for someone outside of the church to obtain salvation, they still would consider me "not doing it right". Why? I'm following Jesus even thought I'm not following their way. Argh! I have to go... will come back later.

[jenn1129]

And the saints are not dead. We are not praying to the dead. We are praying to the living. Christ came to bring us eternal life. Their earthly bodies have died, but they are alive in Christ. And they are connected with us through Him. Death doesn't sever that bond. So we have living, perfected souls who are in Heaven to pray for us. They don't have earthly troubles of their own, and they are perfectly in tune with the will of God. They won't lead us astray or pray for us outside His will.

 

this is beautiful. I never thought of it like that before. And I want to believe that, but I wonder how do you know for sure the saint you are praying to is actually with Christ in Heaven?

[cathmom]

I heard it explained this way once.

 

"Honey, I love you so much! I want to spend all my time with you! I love you! But I don't ever want to meet your mother, or spend any time with her..or your friends either."

 

How would someone feel if their boyfriend/girlfriend said this to them? He or she wouldn't like it. If someone posted this on the board, people would be responding with "This brings up red flags...possible abuser, or just totally selfish, etc."

 

When we cut out everything but Jesus, we're kind of doing the same thing to Jesus.

[OregonNative]

I heard it explained this way once.

 

"Honey, I love you so much! I want to spend all my time with you! I love you! But I don't ever want to meet your mother, or spend any time with her..or your friends either."

 

How would someone feel if their boyfriend/girlfriend said this to them? He or she wouldn't like it. If someone posted this on the board, people would be responding with "This brings up red flags...possible abuser, or just totally selfish, etc."

 

When we cut out everything but Jesus, we're kind of doing the same thing to Jesus.

 

Nice perspective:001_smile:

[Avila]

this is beautiful. I never thought of it like that before. And I want to believe that, but I wonder how do you know for sure the saint you are praying to is actually with Christ in Heaven?

 

 

Well, I believe it because I believe the Church. But I can see how that would be an obstacle if you don't. ;)

 

No one we would ask to pray for us here on earth is in Heaven, yet we still feel comfortable asking them to pray for us. I am not sure how that part is any different.

 

What do you think would happen if you were praying to someone that wasn't in Heaven? I haven't really though about it from that angle, but is that what is bothering you about it? I guess I am still pondering this one.

 

I guess the flip side is that even as a Catholic, we aren't required to pray to the saints or ask for their intercession. Many of us do, and many of us have special saints whose lives we find to be inspirational and helpful to our own journeys. But no one has to include that as part of their personal devotions or prayer life if they don't want to.

[Tea Time]

I hope that I don't offend anyone in here, I'm just going to be honest & I don't have a lot of time to post so it will be what it will be.

 

As background, I was raised & am still a member in the Evangelical Covenant Church (www.covchurch.org). It's been really puzzling to me - & frustrating & irritating, I must admit - that the word "evangelical" has come to have such a negative connotation & is defined in such a narrow way. Our doctrine is not legalistic, we don't oppress women, people of all walks of life are welcomed into our congregation, we are allowed & encouraged to use our intellect & ask questions. I could go on.

 

It's been really interesting to me to learn more about EO beliefs & it seems that many of my beliefs match-up with them & still don't contradict my church's doctrine. I understand that both the RC & EO churches believe that they are following the church that Jesus established. However, I find it very confusing that the focus is to be on Jesus, we are to follow Christ, etc, yet why would he want us to focus on other things within the church? In my mind these things would be Mary, saints, purgatory, etc - all the big stereotypical why-protestants-think-Catholics-are-wrong items. Again, I'm not trying to offend, I'm just really confused about these things & curious. Why does His church have to have all that extra stuff? Why wouldn't He just want us to follow Him?

To the first part of your post:

 

I agree that it is disheartening to hear/read how much disdain is heaped on the word "evangelical." I read comments after news articles and such, and the level of anger, resentment, bitterness toward Christians is sometime truly frightening to me. I think all Christians need to examine themselves and ponder what we say and do that evokes this response. Some of it is unavoidable in a world that does not want to hear certain messages. But some of it is that we have strayed (all of us) from holiness and perhaps tried to do the work instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to work. Anyway, that is all something for perhaps even another thread. :tongue_smilie:

 

To the second part of your post:

I second this, and it is a wonderful response. Thanks for putting it so well!

 

Allison,

 

My initial thought is that since the Lord Jesus Christ came into the world in a material way, as a human with a body, He thereby consecrated the material world and everything is now HIS and useful in getting to know Him and His ways. Even our bodies -- which include our senses. These things that you mention help make our faith holistic -- we use all our senses in worship. We hear the bells and the chanting, we smell the incense, we touch the priest's robe and the icons, we see the icons and the movement in and about the altar, we taste the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist, etc. Participating in these things in this sacramental/mysterious way really takes the faith out of the realm of cerebrality (I made that word up) -- I think here in the west especially we try to understand everything and get everything to make sense to our minds. But relationship with God was never meant to be mind-based. It's such a treat in the Divine Liturgy to just enter into the established, ancient practices, to stop trying to figure everything out, and to be changed by it.

 

ETA: I just re-read your post and you specifically mentioned Mary, the saints, purgatory -- sorry I didn't address those specific things! But I think it all goes together -- the faith is complete; holistic. Jesus did have a mother, so because of the unique role she played in bringing God into the world we honor her; the saints lived and died for the faith and so we honor them. We don't have purgatory in EO theology, but another topic might be icons, no? We see these as "windows to heaven" -- they are the visual Scriptures in a sense. Etc.

 

Hope that's helpful. I'm sure there will be even better answers posted, but that's what it's come to for me.

 

Purgatory has come up a couple of times. It seems a small thing to get derailed on, so I, for one, have not bothered to venture there. Other topics are far more relevant, but here is one perspective.

 

I see it more as a process than a place. It is the process of seeing things how they really were. "There" we might know the complete truth about our thoughts and deeds on earth that are now hidden to us (consciously and unconsciously). We will shed guilt that we did not deserve for things we held ourselves responsible for but were not ours. And we learn just how our actions at times caused pain and worse. Put plainly, we come to know. That will hurt to various degrees, but will also be a good pain as that of being rid of a long infection. Call it what you want, but I can't see how some process like this is not absolutely inevitable, and I am not alone.

 

This from C.S. Lewis who was not, of course, EO or RCC.

 

"Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?

 

I believe in Purgatory.

 

Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on the 'Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory' as that Romish doctrine had then become.....

 

The right view returns magnificently in Newman's DREAM. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer 'With its darkness to affront that light'. Religion has claimed Purgatory.

 

Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.'

 

I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don't think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.

 

My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am 'coming round',' a voice will say, 'Rinse your mouth out with this.' This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."

 

- C.S. Lewis, Letters To Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, chapter 20, paragraphs 7-10, pages 108-109

[Tea Time]

I heard it explained this way once.

 

"Honey, I love you so much! I want to spend all my time with you! I love you! But I don't ever want to meet your mother, or spend any time with her..or your friends either."

 

How would someone feel if their boyfriend/girlfriend said this to them? He or she wouldn't like it. If someone posted this on the board, people would be responding with "This brings up red flags...possible abuser, or just totally selfish, etc."

 

When we cut out everything but Jesus, we're kind of doing the same thing to Jesus.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

 

Excellent point! You know, one of the biggest flags I had about a boyfriend I had in college was his complete indifference toward my best friend, who was like a sister to me. He so clearly did not want to be anywhere near her that I was completely aghast at how little he cared for priorities in my life. It was wise of me to see it. Clearly his interest in me was only what he could get from the relationship. When I hear too much about "being saved" this always comes to my mind. It comes across as self serving. "I love Jesus because he gives me everything I want." Mature Christians (and they dwell in all denominations in my experience) know that there is more to it than that.

[dangermom]

Well, I believe it because I believe the Church. But I can see how that would be an obstacle if you don't. ;)

 

No one we would ask to pray for us here on earth is in Heaven, yet we still feel comfortable asking them to pray for us. I am not sure how that part is any different.

 

What do you think would happen if you were praying to someone that wasn't in Heaven? I haven't really though about it from that angle, but is that what is bothering you about it? I guess I am still pondering this one.

 

 

Assuming your POV, my guess would be that people who aren't in heaven can't hear your request, thus nothing much would happen. Though Heavenly Father still hears it, which seems to me to be the important part.

[ktgrok]

OK. I understand what you mean about everything pointing you to Jesus. But what if it doesn't? I mean, if I'm being honest & no disrespect meant - the descriptions of worship in the RC or EO churches doesn't appeal to me - or any of my senses. For example, incense makes me ill (physically & emotionally) & I don't understand why we have to think abut Mary at all, even thought she is special - I find it very distracting.

 

So, while the doctrine of theRC & EO churches would allow (I think) for someone outside of the church to obtain salvation, they still would consider me "not doing it right". Why? I'm following Jesus even thought I'm not following their way. Argh! I have to go... will come back later.

 

You don't have to think about Mary all the time to be Catholic or Orthodox. I'm sure many don't. All that is required is that you can acknowledge that she is your spiritual mother, and blessed among all women, both statements found in the Bible. But you aren't required to pray to saints or Mary.

[milovany]

You don't have to think about Mary all the time to be Catholic or Orthodox. I'm sure many don't. All that is required is that you can acknowledge that she is your spiritual mother, and blessed among all women, both statements found in the Bible. But you aren't required to pray to saints or Mary.

 

So true. For me, this is still something I'm working through. I don't pray to the saints or Mary very much -- the church is like Christ: gentle, safe, peaceful. It's not forced; we learn and grow but it accepts us where we are. For me, at the very least, I know that honoring Mary shows I believe in the Incarnation -- that it was "done to [her] according to [His] word" and Christ was born a human baby.

 

Here's an icon that I saw of her recently; I had never seen this one before. This is something that two+ years ago would have sort of turned me off (sorry if it's so big; I didn't resize it). Now I look at it in wonder and it makes me want to say, "Thank you." As in, thank you for being willing; and thank you for being the best human example of someone submitted to Christ there could be. I want to be like that, you know? "Let it be done to me according to Thy word."

Edited January 1, 2011 by milovaný

[Caitilin]

So true. For me, this is still something I'm working through. I don't pray to the saints or Mary very much -- the church is like Christ: gentle, safe, peaceful. It's not forced; we learn and grow but it accepts us where we are. For me, at the very least, I know that honoring Mary shows I believe in the Incarnation -- that it was "done to [her] according to [His] word" and Christ was born a human baby.

 

Here's an icon that I saw of her recently; I had never seen this one before. This is something that two+ years ago would have sort of turned me off (sorry if it's so big; I didn't resize it). Now I look at it in wonder and it makes me want to say, "Thank you." As in, thank you for being willing; and thank you for being the best human example of someone submitted to Christ there could be. I want to be like that, you know? "Let it be done to me according to Thy word."

Thanks for posting the icon--I really love all the symbolism that they carry, and this one is especially beautifully written. Happy and blessed New Year. :)

[jenn1129]

Assuming your POV, my guess would be that people who aren't in heaven can't hear your request, thus nothing much would happen. Though Heavenly Father still hears it, which seems to me to be the important part.

 

 

i just worry that if the person you are praying to is in hell, then somehow you are inviting satan into your home/life by giving him an open doorway. maybe that sounds stupid, but there it is...

[mommaduck]

i just worry that if the person you are praying to is in hell, then somehow you are inviting satan into your home/life by giving him an open doorway. maybe that sounds stupid, but there it is...

Satan is not in hell, he has nothing to do with the dead ;) And I would not think we should presume the worst judgment against another. Scripture says we do not know our own hearts, so how can we judge anothers?

[unsinkable]

i just worry that if the person you are praying to is in hell, then somehow you are inviting satan into your home/life by giving him an open doorway. maybe that sounds stupid, but there it is...

 

But you are NOT praying TO a person.

 

If a person has died, and is not KNOWN to be a saint, you can pray for his soul, in case he is in purgatory, in order to ease his suffering.

 

There are NO Catholic prayers that summon demons or the dead from hell. Really.

[Parrothead]

Satan is not in hell, he has nothing to do with the dead ;) And I would not think we should presume the worst judgment against another. Scripture says we do not know our own hearts, so how can we judge anothers?

The process for canonization is long and through. The Church isn't going to say, "Well, he seemed to be a nice guy. Let's make him a saint." Otherwise JPII would already by one.

 

Part of the process is called beautification. It is the thrid step to canonization. This process requires documentation of a miracle due to the intercession of the person up for possible sainthood. And there has to be more than one miracle. I think at least two is needed.

 

I'm pretty sure we are waiting the second miracle for both JPII and Mother Theresa.

[8circles]

The process for canonization is long and through. The Church isn't going to say, "Well, he seemed to be a nice guy. Let's make him a saint." Otherwise JPII would already by one.

 

Part of the process is called beautification. It is the thrid step to canonization. This process requires documentation of a miracle due to the intercession of the person up for possible sainthood. And there has to be more than one miracle. I think at least two is needed.

 

I'm pretty sure we are waiting the second miracle for both JPII and Mother Theresa.

 

Can you tell me where to find all this information about sainthood? I know that people recommend reading "church fathers" - can you guys point to the sources for this stuff when you reference it? It gets confusing pretty fast when I have no frame of reference for it.

[Brigitte]

I would not say that the focus of the RCC is on Mary, saints, etc. We do honor them, but also use them as models of how we should behave and believe. A great deal can learned about our faith and how we should try to live our lives from the lives or Mary and the saints.

[mommaduck]

The process for canonization is long and through. The Church isn't going to say, "Well, he seemed to be a nice guy. Let's make him a saint." Otherwise JPII would already by one.

 

Part of the process is called beautification. It is the thrid step to canonization. This process requires documentation of a miracle due to the intercession of the person up for possible sainthood. And there has to be more than one miracle. I think at least two is needed.

 

I'm pretty sure we are waiting the second miracle for both JPII and Mother Theresa.

I'm not certain what it is in the EO...I haven't asked LOL! I'm still getting comfortable with it all...but have on occasion have asked a few saints for prayer, and those prayers were answered by God.

[mommaduck]

I would not say that the focus of the RCC is on Mary, saints, etc. We do honor them, but also use them as models of how we should behave and believe. A great deal can learned about our faith and how we should try to live our lives from the lives or Mary and the saints.

Exactly. Just like Protestants have books out on various martyrs, on missionaries, by their trusted teachers, etc...we also look to those that came before us, their lives, their writings, what history and tradition (history) teaches about them.

[unsinkable]

I would not say that the focus of the RCC is on Mary, saints, etc. We do honor them, but also use them as models of how we should behave and believe. A great deal can learned about our faith and how we should try to live our lives from the lives or Mary and the saints.

 

Yes. The focus is on Jesus. There are some RCs who focused on Jesus SO WELL that I want to be like them. Like Mother Teresa & JPII.

[Parrothead]

Can you tell me where to find all this information about sainthood? I know that people recommend reading "church fathers" - can you guys point to the sources for this stuff when you reference it? It gets confusing pretty fast when I have no frame of reference for it.

Wiki has a pretty accurate article about the history and current process for canonization. Just with the links within the article one could study the process for sainthood all afternoon.

 

Now if you mean is believing in the communion of saints (the body of saints in Heaven) Biblical, yes. I can post the verses.

[Brigitte]

Part of the process is called beautification.

 

Beatification. :tongue_smilie: :)

[Parrothead]

Beatification. :tongue_smilie: :)

Okay enlighten me.

 

Never mind I see it now. I spelled it wrong.

[8circles]

OK - thanks for all the responses so far. I think I need to read more of the church fathers in order to understand.

 

Can anyone point me to where to start? Since I'm coming from the protestant sola-scriptura perspective, is there anything else written by any of the Biblical authors that would be easier for me to accept? Does that make sense?

[Avila]

OK - thanks for all the responses so far. I think I need to read more of the church fathers in order to understand.

 

Can anyone point me to where to start? Since I'm coming from the protestant sola-scriptura perspective, is there anything else written by any of the Biblical authors that would be easier for me to accept? Does that make sense?

 

I don't know of anything that was written by NT authors that is not in the NT.

 

But the Church Fathers are the people who determined what went into the NT, so if you can trust them on that, I don't see why they can't be trusted in their own writings.

 

I would recommend William Jurgens if you want a comprehensive collection and Mike Aquilina if you want something more condensed as an introduction.

 

And you should probably know that there are other groups out there who will quote Church Fathers to support protestant doctrines -- but when they do that, the quotes have either been taken out of context or are not being considered along with everything else that Church Father said. It seems dishonest to use a CF as authoritative if a quote seems to support Sola Scriptura, for instance, and then argue that when he later is discussing the Real Presence and papal authority, that he has those all wrong. JMO though. Read them for yourself in the context of the rest of what the wrote and see what you think.

[milovany]

Can anyone point me to where to start? Since I'm coming from the protestant sola-scriptura perspective, is there anything else written by any of the Biblical authors that would be easier for me to accept? Does that make sense?

 

One of the determining factors for whether or not a writing appeared in the official canon was if the writer knew Christ personally (i.e., while He was living on the earth). So if there were other writings by the NT writers, they'd likely be in the Bible already. So, how about some disciples of the Apostles themselves? Things written and included in the writings passed around while some of the Apostles were still alive?

 

St. Ignatius was a disciple of the disciple John, and his epistle was written somewhere between A.D. 105 and 115. The Didache may have been written even earlier (it was written between A.D. 50 and 120). St. Clement wrote his first epistle between A.D. 80 and 140. If you're interested in a print-book with some of these (the ones considered more "major"), here is one that can be found at Amazon I think.

 

Hope this helps.

[iwka]

Church fathers writings:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/

 

Sola Scriptura is hard to defend even historically - the Scriptures were defined by the Church.

 

I second Mike Aquilina and smth interesting to consider is Scripture Catholic - and explanation of Catholic faith by the Scriptures only.

 

I have tons more. :-)

[8circles]

One of the determining factors for whether or not a writing appeared in the official canon was if the writer knew Christ personally (i.e., while He was living on the earth). So if there were other writings by the NT writers, they'd likely be in the Bible already. So, how about some disciples of the Apostles themselves? Things written and included in the writings passed around while some of the Apostles were still alive?

 

St. Ignatius was a disciple of the disciple John, and his epistle was written somewhere between A.D. 105 and 115. The Didache may have been written even earlier (it was written between A.D. 50 and 120). St. Clement wrote his first epistle between A.D. 80 and 140. If you're interested in a print-book with some of these (the ones considered more "major"), here is one that can be found at Amazon I think.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Thank you. It's very helpful. & Thank you for understanding where I'm coming from regarding sources.

 

Sola Scriptura is hard to defend even historically - the Scriptures were defined by the Church.

 

Thanks, but I'm not here to debate Sola Scriptura. I'm sure that I don't define it the way you do anyway.

[KristineinKS]

OK - thanks for all the responses so far. I think I need to read more of the church fathers in order to understand.

 

Can anyone point me to where to start? Since I'm coming from the protestant sola-scriptura perspective, is there anything else written by any of the Biblical authors that would be easier for me to accept? Does that make sense?

 

I would start with Scott Hahn's books (he was a Protestant minister who converted, his conversion story can be found here), then Mike Aquilina's.

 

Scott Hahn's Signs of Life: 40 Catholic Customs and Their Biblical Roots will address most of what you've brought up in your posts. You can also do some reading on his website: Saints, Mary, Purgatory.

[simka2]

OK - thanks for all the responses so far. I think I need to read more of the church fathers in order to understand.

 

Can anyone point me to where to start? Since I'm coming from the protestant sola-scriptura perspective, is there anything else written by any of the Biblical authors that would be easier for me to accept? Does that make sense?

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Eastern-Orthodoxy-Through-Western-Eyes/dp/0664224970

 

I am reading this right now, and it has been wonderful. You might want to have a theoligical dictionary handy or google (I just read it aloud to dh...seminary trained ;))

 

It's been very interesting how much of what the eastern orthodox church believes are things I held anyway. It is making me realize that some of my spiritual leanings have been pretty accurate.

 

One thing I really appreciate is their approach to God. It's called Negative theology. Basically it means, we know what God isn't..ie sin, but we cannot fathom all the mysteries of what He IS. As opposed to Positive theology, which addresses what we do know about God.

 

From what I read...it sounds like the early church fathers were very concerened with not putting God in a box...and much of their thought process stems from there.

Edited January 3, 2011 by simka2

[Sparkle]

So true. For me, this is still something I'm working through. I don't pray to the saints or Mary very much -- the church is like Christ: gentle, safe, peaceful. It's not forced; we learn and grow but it accepts us where we are. For me, at the very least, I know that honoring Mary shows I believe in the Incarnation -- that it was "done to [her] according to [His] word" and Christ was born a human baby.

 

Here's an icon that I saw of her recently; I had never seen this one before. This is something that two+ years ago would have sort of turned me off (sorry if it's so big; I didn't resize it). Now I look at it in wonder and it makes me want to say, "Thank you." As in, thank you for being willing; and thank you for being the best human example of someone submitted to Christ there could be. I want to be like that, you know? "Let it be done to me according to Thy word."

 

 

This is a beautiful icon, Juliana. Do you know the name of it or where I can get a copy of it?

[milovany]

Yvette, I'm sorry to say I don't. I asked the abbott who posted it on his Facebook page about it, and he didn't have any details. I've been looking and so far haven't found it anywhere. I'd like to get it for the icon prayer corner in my bedroom (where I do morning prayers). I may print out a color copy for now, until I can find it.

[Sparkle]

Yvette, I'm sorry to say I don't. I asked the abbott who posted it on his Facebook page about it, and he didn't have any details. I've been looking and so far haven't found it anywhere. I'd like to get it for the icon prayer corner in my bedroom (where I do morning prayers). I may print out a color copy for now, until I can find it.

 

 

Oh, too bad...I guess we'll have to keep searching. It's so pretty, and I've never seen it before. Thanks for checking.