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Are you outlining? From what?


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My 5th grader is doing one level outlines from SOTW 1.

 

So far it has been easy and after only a few chapters he can sit down mostly by himself and give me the main idea of each paragraph in a section.

 

I know it is time to make it a little harder, but do I pick more challenging reading material (SOTW 1 is pretty easy for him), or do I add extra levels on to his outline first?

 

Anyone else have easy books for outlining? We own both Usborne Internet Linked and Kingfisher History Encyc. and I can see that niether of those would work very well.

 

I also do much better with a set book, instead of choosing a lit or reading book each week. That extra step makes it less likely to get done :tongue_smilie:

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I don't know if it makes a difference to you, but SWB specifically says to NOT use SOTW book 1 or 2 for outlining. She says it is too narrative.

 

I use "Human Odyssesy" or other non-fiction history books on whatever subjects we are reading about.

 

I strongly recommend the SWB audio lecture 'teaching writing: focus on the middle years' to learn more about the purpose and goals of outling.

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My 10yo outlines from The Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History (as recommended in The Well-Trained Mind). The paragraphs are short, so it works well for one-level outlines.

 

And yeah, SWB doesn't recommend outlining from SOTW1 or 2. :)

 

Eventually, I plan to outline from non-fiction library books. This year is about learning the skill. For that purpose, UILEWH is working very well.

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I didn't realize that outlining from a narrative wasn't "okay" ;)

 

So I compared his outline to the section from SOTW 1 and to the UILE. I still don't see how you would learn to outline from UILE. For instance, he chose to outline the section about The Mysterious End of the Minoans Ch. 18. He has sentances in neat outline form about- we don't know why the minoans left, maybe because of a volcano, first there were small earthquakes, then volcano started to erupt, then v. on Thera exploded and people left, problems from this nearby v. probably caused people to leave Crete too.

 

His outline is pretty much what the paragraph under The end of the Minoans in the Usborne Encyc says (p. 127).

 

I guess I just find outlining from a narrative easier???? Both of our encyclopedias are just basically listings of facts anyway (at least that is how it seems to me). I think, for him, reading through some of the narrative extra and being able to pick what is important is helpful.

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We are outlining from "The Book of the Ancient World" by Dorothy Mills. It is non-fiction and will take us from the Egyptians to Ancient Greece; i.e. Egypt, Assyrians/Babylonians, Hebrews, Hittites, Persians and Phoenicians. The writing is not perfect school writing, so dd has to do more than reword an existing topic sentence. On occasion, she also splits long paragraphs into two topics. This resource is working well for the outlining goals of WTM, and it is giving dd a good overview of the time period.

 

We bought the book and the study guide from Memoria Press. The study guide has lessons with facts to know; i.e. people, places and events, vocabulary, comprehension questions; i.e. short answer questions, some map work, writing ideas, etc. Add in the outlining, a few writing ideas from WTM, and some fiction reading, and the set is excellent for 5th through 7th grade or even older students who need to get through this time period at a faster pace.

Edited by 1Togo
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I hope I don't sound like I won't take a suggestion, because I think I really am looking for something different, but I don't like UILHE or KHE any better.

 

I do think I would like HO, in fact I almost bought it for history this year. I might have to look at it again.

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I had the same problems as you with the Usborne, etc., and settled on the Kingfisher Illustrated History of the World-the old one with the white cover-this is what was suggested in the 1st ed of WTM, and you can find it used. It is written in paragraph form and better for outlining.

 

If you really want more narrative, I know some people use the Guerber books for outlining.

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We really like Streams of Civilization for outlining. It's loaded with fact, but reads like a narrative. (Not secular.)

 

For ancients we've also used the Cultural Atlas for Young People. Sounds like the Ancient Greece one would be a good fit if you just passed the Minoan culture.

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I haven't listened to the lectures, I don't trust my slow internet and downloads, but we are doing the beta testing of WWS.

 

I went ahead and ordered KIHE. I also see The Cultural Atlas listed on the sale board. SilverMoon, you are saying we are mostly past the First Civilizations book, right?

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I haven't listened to the lectures, I don't trust my slow internet and downloads

 

You can also buy them on CD from Peace Hill Press. I found them to be so, so helpful.

 

I also found it useful to highlight in TWTM logic section the steps for history.

 

There are approx 7 things a student should do ever week.

1. read the History "spine"

2. find the place/s on the map

3. put the events/people on the timeline

1-3 can be done together from the same reading on the same day. You could use SOTW or Human Odysses or Oxford Encyclopedia. I use Kingfisher Book of the Ancient World

 

4. Read a corresponding section from your chosen history encyclopedia and make a list of 4-6 facts. This is not the outline. This is a list, complete sentences, of things your student finds interesting

 

5. Find a non-fiction source that has to do with one of the facts the student found of interest. This is library work. This can be an original source, a biography, a book about a specific event or an industry, etc.

 

6. Have the student read the source and write a brief narration. Half a page for a 5th grader is ok.

 

7. Pick an approx 250 word section and have the student do an outline of the section. This can be a 1, 2, 3 point outline depending on the year of the student.

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I also found it useful to highlight in TWTM logic section the steps for history.

 

 

Yes, my logic stage history chapter has lots of highlights and notes ;)

 

This is what we usually do-

 

Session 1

1. Listen to chapter of SOTW (do questions and summaries orally with both boys)

2. Do mapwork (from SOTW and more as in logic stage recs)

7. one point outline from section of SOTW

 

Session 2

4. Read UILHW and KHE and make a list of facts

3. Timeline with info from encyclopedias

 

Assigned reading throughout the week

5. library books, our books, etc.

6. summary of something he read (although I am not as good about getting this done.)

 

We also haven't managed to get to any primary sources yet either.

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Yes, my logic stage history chapter has lots of highlights and notes ;)

 

This is what we usually do-

 

Session 1

1. Listen to chapter of SOTW (do questions and summaries orally with both boys)

2. Do mapwork (from SOTW and more as in logic stage recs)

7. one point outline from section of SOTW

 

Session 2

4. Read UILHW and KHE and make a list of facts

3. Timeline with info from encyclopedias

 

Assigned reading throughout the week

5. library books, our books, etc.

6. summary of something he read (although I am not as good about getting this done.)

 

We also haven't managed to get to any primary sources yet either.

 

 

Thank you for this! I woke up this morning with the intention of mapping out what logic stage history at our house will look like going forward. Your schedule is of great help. Just in case this helps someone else, I'll also have dd write a narrative summary from the STOW reading and use the MapTrek maps when applicable.

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5. Find a non-fiction source that has to do with one of the facts the student found of interest. This is library work. This can be an original source, a biography, a book about a specific event or an industry, etc.

 

Ohhhhhhhhhhh. This IS a great place to insert a primary resource!

 

Good thing I logged on to the forums this morning. I've been seriously considering HO for dd this coming term, and admittedly, the WTM recs had me feeling a bit overwhelmed and flustered, but they are looking a more, and more clear now.

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Thank you for this! I woke up this morning with the intention of mapping out what logic stage history at our house will look like going forward.

 

I had these great plans of doing something similar with each section, but part of what makes this really work for us is doing the whole chapter (from SOTW) at one sitting.

 

We also do hands on stuff in session 2. Things from SOTW AG or History Pockets. My 4th grader really likes the hands on, and my 5th grader often doesn't care, so that way they are both working during the second session.

 

Ohhhhhhhhhhh. This IS a great place to insert a primary resource!

 

 

Alright, I'll try harder (although I think coming up to the Greeks and Romans primary sources are going to be easier to come by ;)).

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You're right. Most history encyclopedias are already so compressed that they're already virtually in outline format. You'd be copying down every single sentence if you tried to outline from them! I think that's why SWB recommended more recently just to make a list of important facts from something like Kingfisher. That will still help with notetaking strategies, picking out important points, etc.

 

But you can outline from any good book written in a paragraph format that is not compressed and which does not contain lots of embedded stories for purposes of illustration.....

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Alright, I'll try harder (although I think coming up to the Greeks and Romans primary sources are going to be easier to come by ;)).

 

:001_smile:

 

 

Re: Outlining: Yesterday, I received my copy of the "white" Kingfisher Ency. NOW I see what everybody means when they say it's better for outlining!! The text is not as "clipped" as the red ency (I have the red one too). It's really too bad they overhauled the new edition. All the older edition needed was to be updated, not changed. The timeline alone is worth it's weight in pure gold!!

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:001_smile:

 

 

Re: Outlining: Yesterday, I received my copy of the "white" Kingfisher Ency. NOW I see what everybody means when they say it's better for outlining!! The text is not as "clipped" as the red ency (I have the red one too). It's really too bad they overhauled the new edition. All the older edition needed was to be updated, not changed. The timeline alone is worth it's weight in pure gold!!

 

Where can you find the white KF that you don't have to pay it's weight in pure gold? I've seen some crazy asking prices for it on amazon. Please dish! :bigear:

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Re: Outlining: Yesterday, I received my copy of the "white" Kingfisher Ency. NOW I see what everybody means when they say it's better for outlining!! The text is not as "clipped" as the red ency (I have the red one too). It's really too bad they overhauled the new edition. All the older edition needed was to be updated, not changed. The timeline alone is worth it's weight in pure gold!!

 

Looking forward to getting my own!

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But you can outline from any good book written in a paragraph format that is not compressed and which does not contain lots of embedded stories for purposes of illustration.....

 

I just used those sections that were not stories and I think it helped greatly for him to begin to pick out for himself in a text like that what is non-fiction vs. what is fiction....

 

 

Thanks! SOTW is working so well I think we will mostly stick with it. I will try to plan some outlining from another book every so often, just so he gets practice with another resource :tongue_smilie:

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Mallory, you should easily be able to add on the white KF outlining too-it is not an overwhelming amount at all. For instance, everything about the Phoenicians is on two pages, only four short paragraphs (not counting the three boxes of "extra info" that you prbly wouldn't outline.) So the wk you cover the Phoenicians in SOTW, he could do that spread easily in one day in about 15 minutes (for a one-level outline.)

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  • 4 weeks later...

I've been re-reading WTM for the logic stage and wondering about this same topic...I haven't seen where she specifically says DON'T outline SOTW though I nothought it suspicious she doesn't recommend it. How about SOTW 3 - is that ok? better? We are due for SOTW3 next year but my oldest will be in 5th grade. I had decided that I want him on the same track as us. He adores SOTW and trying to coordinate another book with SOTW 3 sounds like an unnecessary use of time. Thoughts?

Brownie

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I'm not sure if I posted it earlier in the thread, but I'm still attempting to outline the Bible chapters as I study them in SOW. I'm still looking for a commentary or some other resource with every chapter outlined to use as a sort of answer key.

 

I've bought a set of World Book Encyclopedias and some of the articles are outlined. I might outline some of these articles.

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In the SWB MP3, she says not to outline SOTW b/c it's too much like a story.

 

But doesn't she also dislike some of the current encyclopedias? Like the red Kingfisher?

 

All I know is outlining SOTW works for us. Since we only do 1 section per chapter we can skip the parts that are telling stories. I think it was a great book to start outlining from. We are now ready to try some of these other options (I think we are going to use the Cultural Atlases for Young People from our library).

 

Ultimately SWB wants you to make your own critical decisions about books

Edited by Mallory
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I don't know her stance on the Red Kingfisher. I've actually looked for that but have never found it. In her MP3, she actually says that the Red one is just as good as the white one. I don't know if she was just referring to content. She said she didn't understand why folks insisted on the white one. I know WTMers said they have found it easier to outline the white one b/c it's less bare bones than the red one.

 

Perhaps I'm confusing SWB saying not to outline from literature but I could have sworn she said not to outline SOTW. If it works for you, then go for it. :001_smile:

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I don't know her stance on the Red Kingfisher. I've actually looked for that but have never found it. In her MP3, she actually says that the Red one is just as good as the white one. I don't know if she was just referring to content. She said she didn't understand why folks insisted on the white one. I know WTMers said they have found it easier to outline the white one b/c it's less bare bones than the red one.

 

Perhaps I'm confusing SWB saying not to outline from literature but I could have sworn she said not to outline SOTW. If it works for you, then go for it. :001_smile:

 

This confuses me, though, because isn't the activity book for SOTW 4 geared toward outlining?

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My 10yo outlines from The Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History (as recommended in The Well-Trained Mind). The paragraphs are short, so it works well for one-level outlines.

 

.

 

When we started outlining this is exactly how we did it.

 

My now 16 yo Dd outlines everything because that is the way she notetakes, Ds11 outlines his science books.

 

re: thh red Kingfisher-that was from the first TWTM edition, I believe (huh, I guess I've been doing this a while), and yes, we outlined from that as was taught in TWTM. We still have it and the Usbourne and I like both equally. Though the Red has much more text, the Usbourne has more pictures of historic items and such and not so much text though I think that's because they are hoping the links are used.

Edited by justamouse
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This confuses me, though, because isn't the activity book for SOTW 4 geared toward outlining?

 

We haven't done SOTW4 but I do believe there is outlining in it. My friend did comment though that SOTW4 is less narrative than the others. I could be totally wrong about SWB saying not to outline SOTW lol so don't change anything based on what I say. IF it works for you, then it works for you.

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hmmm...maybe outlining science is starting to sound like a good idea:) Seems like it would be more logical to pull out the main points.

 

Does anyone use SOTW and outline another history book? I've got all her reommended cores sitting in my library bin to look at with ds but the thought of coordinating it all sounds like a waste of time.

Brownie

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Yes Brownie....many here do that. Many use WOrld in Ancient Times for outlining. We're using K12 Human ODyssey. In fact, SWB in WTM2009 says that the child gets the facts from an encyclopedia (Kingfisher or Usborne) then picks a topic from those pages that DC finds interesting to do further research. It is one of those books that DC outlines from. So if DC wanted to learn more about the silk trade in China, you could get World in Ancient Times: China, read the chapter on the silk trade, and have DC outline a few pages.

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