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(I'm not sure how to ask this correctly and hope it doesn't come off as anything other than curiosity).

I know I read the answer to this somewhere or someone already answered it for me-but why does the RCC need(probably not the right word) Mary or the Saints if we have God to pray to?

 

I'm no theological expert, but have you ever asked your friends to pray for you?

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Thank you so much for sharing part of your journey! I really love what you say above. I am so thankful that my DH was willing to step in and call on friends during the time I was wanting to convert. He was literally terrified!

It's the only time he has told me in 11 years that I was absolutley not allowed to do something.

 

At the same time, I worry about what I find, when I do find where God is calling me. Let's hypothetically say it was RCC. I can say right now, that he would be strongly opposed and might even think I was being led astray once again. His biggest issues would be: praying to the saints, praying to Mary, the Assumption, Immaculate Conception, Confessing to man, removal of salvation by mortal sin, not Sola Scriptura and purgatory. I also struggle with reconciling these things, but think I would be more open to learning about them to see if I could actually buy into them or if the information presented to validate them was enough for me. HOWEVER, this got me into trouble before and so I worry. Will I once again find something I "think" God is calling me to and emotion or impressionability will win over? Will I then buy blindly into the beliefs and practices? If I talk to a RCC Priest-he will obviously support RCC. If I talk to a Lutheran Pastor-he will inform me about dents in the RCC's Armour. And so on and so on. Everywhere I turn I get biased opinion (not that it's a bad thing) which makes it all the more hard for me to make an educated choice.

:willy_nilly:

 

I have a feeling the E. Orthodox beliefs about these things would be more acceptable to him.

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How do you know if she heard you? If your prayer is answered? (I'm sorry, these are probably really annoying questions) Are you having to pray for patience?:tongue_smilie:

No. I'm glad you are asking. I'm actually glad you are asking publicly.

 

Faith would be the answer to your question. Faith that she heard you, faith that your request is being see about and faith that God will listen to the woman whom he has such high regard.

 

St. Anthony of Padua is the patron saint of lost things. I know he heard me in my request for help in finding my engagement ring that was missing for over a year. We actually moved during that time. I came down the stairs one afternoon and just very quickly said, "St. Anthony, please ask that my ring be found." Later that evening my dd found my ring lying on my dresser. It has apparently fallen out of a basket.

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And here we were having a really nice, meaningful discussion.

 

I don't know how you meant this. People in this thread have overwhelmingly been respectful and kind, and this comment really irks me.

 

Let me translate what I heard: Catholics worship Mary, not Jesus. Some Catholics I don't know very well told me this. I have no firsthand knowledge of it, haven't read up on it or verified, but I just thought I would throw it out there anyhow.

 

Why would you feel the need to pass along something that you yourself admit you haven't researched and that you know is going to be offensive?

 

FTR, we don't worship Mary. We worship Jesus.

:iagree:

How is rocking a baby asleep evil? How is paying one's bills on time with hard earned money evil? How is going to church to pray to God evil? Maybe I don't get the Lutheran faith the way I thought I did if they think all human kind can do is evil. There is no way I would believe someone like Mother Theresa, for example, could be doing evil in the way she answered God's call.

 

Catholics believe in free will. We can turn to and embrace God or we can turn away from and reject Him. That is free will in a nutshell.

 

If you (and possibly your dh) are interested in moving toward the Catholic church I'd like to recommend checking out Scott Hahn's story He was a Protestant minister that converted to the Catholic church. He and his wife are great apologists now. You can hear his story for free from this website. Either download it or order the free CD.

:iagree: Seeing that on the chart suprized me yesterday. I instantly thought of doctors and nurses curing and helping the sick. How is that evil? A mother nursing her baby. People raising money for those in need and giving freely of themselves to others.

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In my RCIA class a lovely young lady with Downs Syndrome simplified purgatory for us. She said purgatory is rehab for sinners. Perfect!

 

Maybe you could just start with the Nicene Creed, which is prayed during every Mass. It's the foundation of "what we believe" in the RC church. Really go through it, praying over each part, reading, discussing...

 

Some of what you said above about your DH's concerns aren't really based on the truth of Catholic teaching.

 

Once you really understand the communion of saints, for example, you'll understand that we don't pray to the saints, we ask them to pray for us.

 

There's a verse in 1 John (I think that's where it is) that talks about "a sin that leads to death." That never made sense to me as a protestant. I remember a whole group of friends in Bible study being confused by it.

 

We confess our sins to God, through his agent on earth. The priest is merely His servant. We believe that Jesus gave this responsibility to His disciples.

 

As for purgatory, I remember studying Revelations as a Protestant and thinking, "Wow, when we get to Heaven, we get a new name and garment." I immediately thought, Where does that happen? If it's before we enter Heaven, but after death, that sounds like the RC version of purgatory, where we're "perfected" for Heaven.

 

It's a process, for sure. I prayed constantly that God would show His truth to BOTH my DH and myself, so that we were united in our beliefs and our children would feel that unity. He did, and His grace increases in abundance day by day.

 

Peace to you.

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:iagree:

 

:iagree: Seeing that on the chart suprized me yesterday. I instantly thought of doctors and nurses curing and helping the sick. How is that evil? A mother nursing her baby. People raising money for those in need and giving freely of themselves to others.

Oh, I know. Even with Oregon Native's further explanation I'm still having a hard time wrapping my mind around it.

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I have a feeling the E. Orthodox beliefs about these things would be more acceptable to him.

On a few of these things.

 

praying to the saints & praying to Mary explained...petitioning for them to pray for us just as we ask prayer from one another on earth. We don't consider the saints dead, just alive with Christ...merely their bodies are dead.

the Assumption Orthodox believe Mary died, but Tradition has it that her body later disappeared from the grave (remember, they didn't bury people in the ground then or in that area, but rather in caves and underground caverns...where multiple bodies were laid to rest.

Immaculate Conception He doesn't believe Christ was immaculately conceived by the Holy Spirit???

Confessing to man I think this is one of the most misunderstood points often. Many times it's like a counseling session. You don't have to go into detail over every little sin. Usually we discuss areas that we are personally working through. We receive advice and wisdom and prayer.

removal of salvation by mortal sin

not Sola Scriptura This one has been explained. It didn't fall from the sky already published ;) It came from Tradition.

purgatory Orthodox don't believe in purgatory. However, there are "some" Orthodox that hold to a belief in "tollhouses", but that is not supported by the Church.

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I think were a lot of the misconception of how Catholics esteem the Blessed Virgin Mary and the communion of Saints comes from the Catholic lexicon. We do say that we are going to pray to the BVM for intercession. We also simply say we are going to pray to Mary. Even Catholics that are not properly catechized would think what they are doing is actually praying as in worship, which is reserved for God.

 

Here on the boards it comes up periodically. I'll think we have all the Protestant newbies up to speed, and well... here comes another one asking the same question or making the same mistake. It can get exasperating to some of us long timers to explain it yet again. Not that I mind explaining again. But I do have to pray for patience. ;)

 

:grouphug:

Yes, it can all be quite confusing at times. I had recently learned something new. During Mass the following occurs during the greeting:

Priest says: May the Lord be with you.

People say: And also with you.

Who is "you?" In the past, I had always thought it was the priest. :blush: I was wrong. You are saying it to the Holy Spirit. Sadly, there are Catholics who don't know that.

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On a few of these things.

 

praying to the saints & praying to Mary explained...petitioning for them to pray for us just as we ask prayer from one another on earth. We don't consider the saints dead, just alive with Christ...merely their bodies are dead.

the Assumption Orthodox believe Mary died, but Tradition has it that her body later disappeared from the grave (remember, they didn't bury people in the ground then or in that area, but rather in caves and underground caverns...where multiple bodies were laid to rest.

Immaculate Conception He doesn't believe Christ was immaculately conceived by the Holy Spirit???

Confessing to man I think this is one of the most misunderstood points often. Many times it's like a counseling session. You don't have to go into detail over every little sin. Usually we discuss areas that we are personally working through. We receive advice and wisdom and prayer.

removal of salvation by mortal sin

not Sola Scriptura This one has been explained. It didn't fall from the sky already published ;) It came from Tradition.

purgatory Orthodox don't believe in purgatory. However, there are "some" Orthodox that hold to a belief in "tollhouses", but that is not supported by the Church.

Just a quick correction if you don't mind. It is a common misconception that the Immaculate Conception refers to Jesus' conception. In the Catholic church the Immaculate Conception is actually referring to Mary's being conceived without sin.

 

As for the Assumption there is no specific theology on this. One can believe that Mary died or one can believe Mary was taken up to Heaven prior to actual death.

 

You've got to explain "tollhouses."

Edited by Parrothead
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Just a quick correction if you don't mind. It is a common misconception that the Immaculate Conception refers to Jesus' conception. In the Catholic church the Immaculate Conception is actually referring to Mary's being conceived without sin.

 

As for the Assumption there is no specific theology on this. One can believe that Mary died or one can believe Mary was taken up to Heaven prior to actual death.

 

You've got to explain "tollhouses."

Okay, then on the Immaculate Conception, the Orthodox don't believe that ;)

 

Tollhouses are difficult to explain and I'm not well-versed. Let me read and think on it before giving an answer. Let's just say I don't hold to it as is presented...I think it overthinks things.

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No. I'm glad you are asking. I'm actually glad you are asking publicly.

 

Faith would be the answer to your question. Faith that she heard you, faith that your request is being see about and faith that God will listen to the woman whom he has such high regard.

 

St. Anthony of Padua is the patron saint of lost things. I know he heard me in my request for help in finding my engagement ring that was missing for over a year. We actually moved during that time. I came down the stairs one afternoon and just very quickly said, "St. Anthony, please ask that my ring be found." Later that evening my dd found my ring lying on my dresser. It has apparently fallen out of a basket.

This happened to me too. My ring had been missing for a long long time: a year or more. This was before I returned to my Catholic faith. A Lutheran friend of mine told me to pray to God to help me find my ring. I felt a little silly, but I did it anyway. I immediately retracked it since I felt awful praying about a ring when there was so much more important work for God to do. I found my ring the next day. :D

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REMEMBER, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly to thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother; to thee do I come; before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen.

 

This is probably a stupid question, but is she answering your prayer or your request to intercede for you?

 

 

This is a genuine question and not snarky. I am truly wondering this and have discussed this with dh. If we have confidence to come before the throne of grace because of Jesus our mediator and High Priest why would one feel the need to fly to Mary instead of flying to Jesus? My pastor frequently exhorts the congregants to flee to Jesus, so the language of this particular request caught my attention. Why would one flee to Mary instead of bypassing her and fleeing straight to Jesus?

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Think of it like this: I need you to do pick up my mail while I'm on vacation. So I ask you to do that. I also know that you are a very busy wife and mom, so I ask your dh to remind you to pick up my mail for me while I'm on vacation.

 

Sorry...I see OregonNative asked the same question I posted. Maybe she asked this question too. I'm afraid if I keep reading though I'll lose my place so here is my thought as I'm reading through.

 

Is Jesus too busy to hear the prayers of his saints? :confused:

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This is a genuine question and not snarky. I am truly wondering this and have discussed this with dh. If we have confidence to come before the throne of grace because of Jesus our mediator and High Priest why would one feel the need to fly to Mary instead of flying to Jesus? My pastor frequently exhorts the congregants to flee to Jesus, so the language of this particular request caught my attention. Why would one flee to Mary instead of bypassing her and fleeing straight to Jesus?

 

Rebecca, just out of curiosity (and also without "snark") -- does your pastor or do you ever ask friends, family, church people to pray for you? I would think so, right? You're sick and you ask people to pray for you, or you need some money to pay a bill and you ask people to pray for you? It's the very same thing. To me, when I hear people question asking the saints to pray for you on the basis of "why not just ask God?" I would think the practical application in one's life would be to never ask anyone else to pray for you because you can just ask God directly. That actually almost makes sense to me! But it's not what the Bible teaches -- it teaches that the prayers of the saints rise before the throne God.

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We still pray to God. But the answer to your question is the same answer to "why do we come here and ask people to pray for us?"

 

 

Now that is something I can wrap my brain around. :001_smile:

 

ETA: And thanks to milovany too. :-) I will ponder this. I am actually not big on asking people to pray for me...only very close people over very serious issues. But it's an interesting thought.

 

ETA: And parrothead :-)

Edited by silliness7
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This is a genuine question and not snarky. I am truly wondering this and have discussed this with dh. If we have confidence to come before the throne of grace because of Jesus our mediator and High Priest why would one feel the need to fly to Mary instead of flying to Jesus? My pastor frequently exhorts the congregants to flee to Jesus, so the language of this particular request caught my attention. Why would one flee to Mary instead of bypassing her and fleeing straight to Jesus?

Again, it isn't that Catholics don't pray directly to God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. But in the same way you ask for prayers on the forum, Catholics ask for prayers from the BVM and the saints. Since the BVM and the saints are up there with God they have His ear.

 

Say you met your dh's best buddy in the market. He asks you to remind dh about returning the chainsaw your dh borrowed. You go home and remind dh about returning the chainsaw. Asking the BVM or the saints for intercession is the same.

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I think were a lot of the misconception of how Catholics esteem the Blessed Virgin Mary and the communion of Saints comes from the Catholic lexicon. We do say that we are going to pray to the BVM for intercession. We also simply say we are going to pray to Mary. Even Catholics that are not properly catechized would think what they are doing is actually praying as in worship, which is reserved for God.

 

Here on the boards it comes up periodically. I'll think we have all the Protestant newbies up to speed, and well... here comes another one asking the same question or making the same mistake. It can get exasperating to some of us long timers to explain it yet again. Not that I mind explaining again. But I do have to pray for patience. ;)

 

This may seem like a dumb question, but why would someone ask the BVM or a saint to pray and intercede on their behalf, when they could pray directly to God themselves? Perhaps I am thinking about this too much. Is the request made just as if you would ask other people to pray for you?

 

Edited: Sorry, I just saw that someone else asked this - and thank you who answered for the clarification :)

 

Krista

Edited by kristavws
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This may seem like a dumb question, but why would someone ask the BVM or a saint to pray and intercede on their behalf, when they could pray directly to God themselves? Perhaps I am thinking about this too much. Is the request made just as if you would ask other people to pray for you?

 

Edited: Sorry, I just saw that someone else asked this - and thank you who answered for the clarification :)

 

Krista

 

Yeah, I've explained it six ways from Sunday and so have a few others. :D:lol:

 

That does seem to be a very common question from others to Catholics.

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Sorry...I see OregonNative asked the same question I posted. Maybe she asked this question too. I'm afraid if I keep reading though I'll lose my place so here is my thought as I'm reading through.

 

Is Jesus too busy to hear the prayers of his saints? :confused:

I wouldn't think so. Do you think He is ever too busy to hear our prayers?

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I'm no theological expert, but have you ever asked your friends to pray for you?

Yes, but they are here on earth and with my upbringing that is looked upon as OK. Praying to someone up in Heaven that is not God comes across as lessening who he is. Does this make sense? I'm not saying I disagree with the Catholic way, just where my thought process originates from.

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Yes, it can all be quite confusing at times. I had recently learned something new. During Mass the following occurs during the greeting:

Priest says: May the Lord be with you.

People say: And also with you.

Who is "you?" In the past, I had always thought it was the priest. :blush: I was wrong. You are saying it to the Holy Spirit. Sadly, there are Catholics who don't know that.

 

Until you posted this, I was under the same impression! This is done in a Lutheran church as well-I had no clue we were talking to the Holy Spirit:001_huh: I guess this confuses me a bit because why am I saying that to the HS when he is part of the Lord?

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Just a quick correction if you don't mind. It is a common misconception that the Immaculate Conception refers to Jesus' conception. In the Catholic church the Immaculate Conception is actually referring to Mary's being conceived without sin.

 

As for the Assumption there is no specific theology on this. One can believe that Mary died or one can believe Mary was taken up to Heaven prior to actual death.

 

You've got to explain "tollhouses."

Yes, this is the conception I was speaking of.

Edited by OregonNative
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Until you posted this, I was under the same impression! This is done in a Lutheran church as well-I had no clue we were talking to the Holy Spirit:001_huh: I guess this confuses me a bit because why am I saying that to the HS when he is part of the Lord?

 

Good question. I am sorry to say that I don't have an answer.:blushing: It is actually being changed to, "And with your spirit." I do have someone I can ask.

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Just a quick correction if you don't mind. It is a common misconception that the Immaculate Conception refers to Jesus' conception. In the Catholic church the Immaculate Conception is actually referring to Mary's being conceived without sin.

 

As for the Assumption there is no specific theology on this. One can believe that Mary died or one can believe Mary was taken up to Heaven prior to actual death.

 

You've got to explain "tollhouses."

 

You're speaking from E.O. tradition, am I correct? (regarding the Assumption of Mary). I believe from the Catholic tradition, one is anathema and condemned eternally if one does not believe in Mary's Assumption. (This is one of the only points on which a pope has ever spoken _ex cathedra_--and therefore the point is considered infallible. This was in 1950, I believe.)

 

I'm interested in hearing about "tollhouses." I know very little about Christian Orthodoxy, and am finding this all Very Interesting. :)

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Yes, but they are here on earth and with my upbringing that is looked upon as OK. Praying to someone up in Heaven that is not God comes across as lessening who he is. Does this make sense? I'm not saying I disagree with the Catholic way, just where my thought process originates from.

 

 

I've been mulling on this topic whilst making dinner. On the surface it seems to make a certain amount of sense. But I just cannot think of anywhere in Scripture where Paul or anyone else requests prayer or suggest others request the prayers from those in heaven. Paul asks other believers to pray for him and he states he is praying for them. I'm pretty sure Paul doesn't ask John the Baptist or Elijah or Moses or Abraham to intercede for him or instruct Timothy or others to do so.

 

This question has kind of already been asked but is there any indication from Scripture that once in heaven believers will have the ability to hear prayers? I know Samuel heard the Witch of Endor (or not, that's debatable, I guess). But supposing he did is that evidence that he would be able to hear many, many requests possibly sent up simultaneously? God can do this but is there any evidence that saints in heaven can do this? I understand taking things on faith but for those who are sola scriptura where is the basis for believing these things to be true? Is this going to come back down to the sola scriptura thing or is there Scripture I'm not thinking of?

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You're speaking from E.O. tradition, am I correct? (regarding the Assumption of Mary). I believe from the Catholic tradition, one is anathema and condemned eternally if one does not believe in Mary's Assumption. (This is one of the only points on which a pope has ever spoken _ex cathedra_--and therefore the point is considered infallible. This was in 1950, I believe.)

 

I'm interested in hearing about "tollhouses." I know very little about Christian Orthodoxy, and am finding this all Very Interesting. :)

 

No. Anathema would not apply here. Anathema doesn't even exist under current church law. But even an anathema doesn't condemn someone eternally. God can do that, but the Church does not. The Church can excommunicate or cut someone off from fellowship, but only God determines eternity.

 

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0004chap.asp

 

The Assumption is part of Catholic doctrine, and Catholics are obliged to believe it.

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I've been mulling on this topic whilst making dinner. On the surface it seems to make a certain amount of sense. But I just cannot think of anywhere in Scripture where Paul or anyone else requests prayer or suggest others request the prayers from those in heaven. Paul asks other believers to pray for him and he states he is praying for them. I'm pretty sure Paul doesn't ask John the Baptist or Elijah or Moses or Abraham to intercede for him or instruct Timothy or others to do so.

 

This question has kind of already been asked but is there any indication from Scripture that once in heaven believers will have the ability to hear prayers? I know Samuel heard the Witch of Endor (or not, that's debatable, I guess). But supposing he did is that evidence that he would be able to hear many, many requests possibly sent up simultaneously? God can do this but is there any evidence that saints in heaven can do this? I understand taking things on faith but for those who are sola scriptura where is the basis for believing these things to be true? Is this going to come back down to the sola scriptura thing or is there Scripture I'm not thinking of?

 

You are asking about scripture, but are forgetting about tradition.

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My husband is just like yours and I am just like you!:tongue_smilie: My DH is very open to me questioning and learning and he is extremely helpful. He def. sees I have no idea where to turn:lol: We do talk in length about this and in fact he stopped by this afternoon and we talked for quite a while.

 

This thread has brought about some very interesting conversations between my husband and me. It has felt good to talk about these things. He is learning about EO right along with me. (We are not thinking of converting, just to be clear, but we both want to truly understand others' practice of Christianity.) I have found in my marriage that my husband and I are often at different places spiritually at different times. There have been times when his faith held me up, so to speak, and times when mine held him up. Looking back over the years at how that has played out brings me to grateful tears. It is a beautiful thing and very sacred, the joining of marriage and spirituality.

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No. Anathema would not apply here. Anathema doesn't even exist under current church law. But even an anathema doesn't condemn someone eternally. God can do that, but the Church does not. The Church can excommunicate or cut someone off from fellowship, but only God determines eternity.

 

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0004chap.asp

 

The Assumption is part of Catholic doctrine, and Catholics are obliged to believe it.

 

Thanks for the clarification. Then, does God accept people who are cut off from the Catholic church? I honestly don't know. If it's the case that "The Church can cut someone off from fellowship, but only God determines eternity," then it must be possible that God accepts people into His Presence without being a part of Holy Catholic Church--or its merely semantics

 

I think the last time I was in a Catholic church and was reading the . . .literature in the pews (I can't think of what it was. . . the missle maybe?) it said that people outside the Catholic church might be accepted by God. I didn't realize that was a Catholic teaching.

 

Off to read up on the repercussions of being "anathema" :)

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You are asking about scripture, but are forgetting about tradition.

 

No, I am not forgetting about tradition. I just do not ascribe to ancient church tradition...and that is not said with disrespect to people who do. That is what I meant by the sola scriptura camp may have to just agree to disagree unless there is some Scripture I am overlooking. Hey, I used to be a hard core Baptist and now I'm baptizing my infants much to the gasp and horror of my Baptist friends and family. :lol: This old dog is open to new tricks but not currently seeing the wisdom in giving up sola scriptura.

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but not currently seeing the wisdom in giving up sola scriptura.

 

Even if sola scriptura was not part of any church prior to the reformation? Not the NT church, the early church, the middle ages church(es), etc.? Just asking in a sorta tongue-in-cheek way to see if you've thought about the implications of this -- that the church was in error for 1500 years until the doctrine of sola scriptura was introduced, defined, and put into practice about 500 years ago.

 

:001_huh:

 

Or do you see another way to think about this?

Edited by milovanĂƒÂ½
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Even if sola scriptura was not part of any church prior to the reformation? Not the NT church, the early church, the middle ages church(es), etc.? Just asking in a sorta tongue-in-cheek way to see if you've thought about the implications of this -- that the church was in error for 1500 years until the doctrine of sola scriptura was introduced, defined, and put into practice about 500 years ago.

 

:001_huh:

 

Or do you see another way to think about this?

 

Good question. This thread is really making me think. Iron sharpening iron. Let the mulling continue. :001_smile:

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No, I am not forgetting about tradition. I just do not ascribe to ancient church tradition...and that is not said with disrespect to people who do. That is what I meant by the sola scriptura camp may have to just agree to disagree unless there is some Scripture I am overlooking. Hey, I used to be a hard core Baptist and now I'm baptizing my infants much to the gasp and horror of my Baptist friends and family. :lol: This old dog is open to new tricks but not currently seeing the wisdom in giving up sola scriptura.

Revelation 5:8-10 (King James Version)

 

 

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

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You're speaking from E.O. tradition, am I correct? (regarding the Assumption of Mary). I believe from the Catholic tradition, one is anathema and condemned eternally if one does not believe in Mary's Assumption. (This is one of the only points on which a pope has ever spoken _ex cathedra_--and therefore the point is considered infallible. This was in 1950, I believe.)

 

I'm interested in hearing about "tollhouses." I know very little about Christian Orthodoxy, and am finding this all Very Interesting. :)

Sorry we were talking in friend code.

 

I'm Catholic and Mommaduck is EO. Yes, the BVM was taken to heave body and soul. But it is open to each person to decide if she died first or was assumed prior to death.

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No, I am not forgetting about tradition. I just do not ascribe to ancient church tradition...and that is not said with disrespect to people who do. That is what I meant by the sola scriptura camp may have to just agree to disagree unless there is some Scripture I am overlooking. Hey, I used to be a hard core Baptist and now I'm baptizing my infants much to the gasp and horror of my Baptist friends and family. :lol: This old dog is open to new tricks but not currently seeing the wisdom in giving up sola scriptura.

 

It is kind of like geometry. If you are given two angles in a triangle you can know the third angle even if it is not given. Some things that are given in Scripture lead to knowing some things that are not directly stated, and the Church has been studying that "geometry" for a long time. Now, I am not that great at geometry, and while I can follow it to some extent and can work to follow more, my own efforts will only get me so far. So I have to defer to those who know more and who have earned the right to have authority in that subject. I don't have to figure it out on my own, thank goodness. (It is common for people to underestimate the level and degree that they defer to authority in all areas of life.)

 

I would rather use, as my authority, something that is a larger and has been around longer than a pastor and a flock on their own in space and time reading from a book that they may not comprehend. That lonely way does not seem like what I see in the NT.

 

While I do not trust every individual person who has ever been a Catholic, I do trust the body of believers that spans 2000 years and draws on thousands of years of Jewish tradition before that. That is a lot of compiled wisdom. Why reinvent the wheel every few years? And when will enough reform take place that you can be sure that you have finally gotten to the Truth?

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And when will enough reform take place that you can be sure that you have finally gotten to the Truth?

 

This is why I have found myself searching the last few years. It seems they change things everytime I think we've found a church home. I find the discussions on RC/EO so very interesting because they seem constant.

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It is kind of like geometry. If you are given two angles in a triangle you can know the third angle even if it is not given. Some things that are given in Scripture lead to knowing some things that are not directly stated, and the Church has been studying that "geometry" for a long time. Now, I am not that great at geometry, and while I can follow it to some extent and can work to follow more, my own efforts will only get me so far. So I have to defer to those who know more and who have earned the right to have authority in that subject. I don't have to figure it out on my own, thank goodness.

 

I really, really love this description of something that is usually so hard to put into words. Thank you for this.

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I've been mulling on this topic whilst making dinner. On the surface it seems to make a certain amount of sense. But I just cannot think of anywhere in Scripture where Paul or anyone else requests prayer or suggest others request the prayers from those in heaven. Paul asks other believers to pray for him and he states he is praying for them. I'm pretty sure Paul doesn't ask John the Baptist or Elijah or Moses or Abraham to intercede for him or instruct Timothy or others to do so.

 

This question has kind of already been asked but is there any indication from Scripture that once in heaven believers will have the ability to hear prayers? I know Samuel heard the Witch of Endor (or not, that's debatable, I guess). But supposing he did is that evidence that he would be able to hear many, many requests possibly sent up simultaneously? God can do this but is there any evidence that saints in heaven can do this? I understand taking things on faith but for those who are sola scriptura where is the basis for believing these things to be true? Is this going to come back down to the sola scriptura thing or is there Scripture I'm not thinking of?

Mark 9:4 Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; the two were in conversation with Jesus;

Luke 16:24 Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue

1Cor 12:25-26... that there be no dissension in the body, but that all the members may be concerned for one another. If one suffers, all suffer.

Eph 2:19.. you are fellow citizens with the saints...

1 Thes 5:10 He died for us, that all of us, either awake or asleep

might live in him.

 

If you take the above as truth, you can see the progression. Yes, there are saints in Heaven. Yes the are concerned for us. And Jesus himself told the story of the rich man who cried out to Abraham in Heaven.

 

ETA: there are more verses, but I didn't want to type them out.

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This is why I have found myself searching the last few years. It seems they change things everytime I think we've found a church home. I find the discussions on RC/EO so very interesting because they seem constant.

 

It's exactly why we converted (EO), FLMom -- reform? Why exactly does the Church, which is Christ's body, need to be re-formed? Didn't the Trinity do it right the first time? Aren't all things possible with God? (Even forming a church with fallible men into an infallible entity?) And if He didn't do it right the first time, then why/how could I believe He got it right when it was re-formed? These were thoughts I had anyhow. (And I'm not referring to the Reformation, necessarily, since that's not so much part of our EO history; just the general idea of re-forming the Church).

Edited by milovanĂƒÂ½
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Thanks for the clarification. Then, does God accept people who are cut off from the Catholic church? I honestly don't know. If it's the case that "The Church can cut someone off from fellowship, but only God determines eternity," then it must be possible that God accepts people into His Presence without being a part of Holy Catholic Church--or its merely semantics

 

 

Yes, of course.

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Mark 9:4 Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; the two were in conversation with Jesus;

Luke 16:24 Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue

1Cor 12:25-26... that there be no dissension in the body, but that all the members may be concerned for one another. If one suffers, all suffer.

Eph 2:19.. you are fellow citizens with the saints...

1 Thes 5:10 He died for us, that all of us, either awake or asleep

might live in him.

Revelation 8:3-4 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

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Trying to think through these issues while reading Pat the Bunny and hunting down cups of milk and missing blankies is quite challenging. :D

 

My initial thought was that the church is fallible. I've never thought the church to be infallible and to imagine that it was for 1500 years is possible? Of course that does seem a little far-fetched almost cultish to claim that the church was in error for so long but thanks to the reformers has now been "fixed." I see the arrogance and futility in that.

 

So I copped out and googled "was the apostle Paul sola scriptura?"

Obviously the term was coined at the Reformation but the CONCEPT that church doctrine should be based on Scripture alone certainly cannot be that young.

 

I found this article which was quite informative. Obviously written from a Protestant perspective but what flavor I do not know. I will try to excerpt a bit after I link it. What struck me about the argument here is that the early church fathers were arguing the concept of sola scriptura against the gnostics who claimed they were privvy to some oral apostolic teachings that others could not know or understand. Of course there is another side to this story. The article mentions a 600+ page tome written by a Catholic scholar recently refuting sola scriptura and goes on to explain where the work falls short. I'm not going to read the 600 pages and now I'm off to the movies with dh. :001_smile:

 

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-earlychurch.html

 

Brief excerpt: (bolding is mine)

 

These above quotations are simply representative of the Church fathers as a whole. Cyprian, Origen, Hippolytus, Athanasius, Firmilian, and Augustine are just a few of these that could be cited as proponents of the principle of sola Scriptura in addition to Tertullian, Irenaeus, Cyril and Gregory of Nyssa. The Early Church operated on the basis of the principle of sola Scriptura. It was this historical principle that the Reformers sought to restore to the Church. The extensive use of Scripture by the fathers of the Early Church from the very beginning are seen in the following facts:

 

ETA: Thanks for the scripture references parrothead. I'm off to Harry Potter...again. Putting this heavy stuff on hold for the time being. later :-)

Edited by silliness7
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Trying to think through these issues while reading Pat the Bunny and hunting down cups of milk and missing blankies is quite challenging. :D

 

My initial thought was that the church is fallible. I've never thought the church to be infallible and to imagine that it was for 1500 years is possible? Of course that does seem a little far-fetched almost cultish to claim that the church was in error for so long but thanks to the reformers has now been "fixed." I see the arrogance and futility in that.

 

So I copped out and googled "was the apostle Paul sola scriptura?"

Obviously the term was coined at the Reformation but the CONCEPT that church doctrine should be based on Scripture alone certainly cannot be that young.

 

I found this article which was quite informative. Obviously written from a Protestant perspective but what flavor I do not know. I will try to excerpt a bit after I link it. What struck me about the argument here is that the early church fathers were arguing the concept of sola scriptura against the gnostics who claimed they were privvy to some oral apostolic teachings that others could not know or understand. Of course there is another side to this story. The article mentions a 600+ page tome written by a Catholic scholar recently refuting sola scriptura and goes on to explain where the work falls short. I'm not going to read the 600 pages and now I'm off to the movies with dh. :001_smile:

 

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-earlychurch.html

 

Brief excerpt: (bolding is mine)

 

These above quotations are simply representative of the Church fathers as a whole. Cyprian, Origen, Hippolytus, Athanasius, Firmilian, and Augustine are just a few of these that could be cited as proponents of the principle of sola Scriptura in addition to Tertullian, Irenaeus, Cyril and Gregory of Nyssa. The Early Church operated on the basis of the principle of sola Scriptura. It was this historical principle that the Reformers sought to restore to the Church. The extensive use of Scripture by the fathers of the Early Church from the very beginning are seen in the following facts:

How could St. Paul have been operating on the basis of sola scriptura when there was no written scripture during his life time?

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Oh, shoot. I started to read the article, but they lost me at paragraph two: "Sola Scriptura is the teaching, founded on the Scriptures themselves, that there is only one special revelation from God that man possesses today, the written Scriptures or the Bible."

 

I've not yet seen anyone able to prove sola scriptura from the Scriptures by using the principle of sola scriptura. In other words, by using the Scriptures alone. Personal interpretation of certain passages is always thrown into the equation. People will quote a Scripture (often 2 Tim. 3:16) and say "this proves sola scriptura." But it doesn't; if you *interpret* this verse a certain way, possibly. But there are other ways to interpret it, too. And to me it's pretty obvious it doesn't mean the writings we have today called The Bible are the only revelation of God.

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I really hate it when my computer freezes and eats my post!

 

I have so truly enjoyed this thread and learned so much - and I'm not the OP!

 

Catholics, rejoice - I have an appointment with my parish priest in a couple of weeks.

 

Milovany - I appreciate sincerely the links and information you sent. I will continue to study them, but feel that I'm being led towards RC at the moment. I hope you'll understand. Thank you so much for your help!

 

Parrothead - gird your patience: one question since you all have answered so many of mine in the last 40 pages:

 

Explain Jesus' brothers and sisters as referenced in the Bible. How could he have siblings if Mary was ever-virgin? I know the Protestant explanation - what is the RC/EO one?

 

Thank you!!

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