Do you think this approach to drugs could work in America?

[jld]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/26/AR2010122600610.html

 

The article mentions there are prejudices that must be overcome in order to put such a program in place. Do you think these prejudices could be overcome? How?

[Peela]

Yes, America is full of people just like anywhere else. It would work. However, yes, the war against drugs- mainly the media's brainwashing- has created so much prejudice that there would have to be a big turn around and I doubt the government woudl be willing to go there...yet....but it is heartening to see that people are looking at such things at least (hopefully here too). Change often takes a long time.

 

There is a lot of corruption at high places when it comes to drugs, though. I read the other day (loosely paraphrasing) that only something like 20% of the world's heroine came out of Afganistan a decade ago. Now that it is occupied, something like 90% of the world's heroine is coming out of there. Its not a nice business, war. And there is a lot of black market, international, high level stuff going on. It's not so easy to research that another way of handling drug addiction and the crime form drugs is available and far more effective- here's proof- let's change. The poeple who want to make the changes will be villified by the people who have investments in the actual criminal corruption, who are also involved in policy making.

[Joanne]

Drug addiction is so complex.

 

What the US has done isn't working.

 

The article offered a compelling alternative.

 

I do tend to agree that it's best to offer *help* to non violent offenders rather than punishment. I would probably stay in support of punishment for selling drugs to minors.

[IsabelC]

I think the "solution" to the drug problem is to figure out how people get to a place where illicit drugs seem like a good idea (or the only option) in the first place and address that. I would agree that for some/many drug users, a more supportive and less punitive approach might be helpful, but it's a reactive response, rather than a preventative measure. Wrt overcoming "prejudice" I suspect this might be extremely difficult if not impossible in America (and Australia too) in the foreseeable future.

[TravelingChris]

FIrst of all, we do this in many places. It just isn't systematic. Second of all, Portugal had a problem with heroin- a depressant. We don't particularly. We have problems with cociane ;with meth; with illegal use of prescription drugs. I would so much rather deal with a heroin addict that with a meth user. Another point- the article says Portugal had an astounding 1% of the population- okay that is astounding if they are using only heroin but I am sure we have at least 1% addicts or frequent users (you don;t technically get addicted to some of the drugs).

 

In most places, users aren't held in prison unless they have other charges. They are released and there is neither treatment nor imprisonment. So what the proposal would be is to take people who are not taking up prison cells and instead give them treatment. THis would cost tremendous amounts of money and I just don't think there is the public will. It would be hard to justify treatment for addicts while non addicts don't get kidney transplants.

[Catherine]

Heroin is a huge problem. Intravenous injection of heroin and cocaine is a widespread problem in cities-meth is far more common outside of cities. Both are a big problem.

 

Injecting drugs increases the social burdens significantly, because of the expensive illnesses these people get-horrible bacterial infections and HIV and its attendant problems.

[Harriet Vane]

Drug addiction is so complex.

 

What the US has done isn't working.

 

The article offered a compelling alternative.

 

I do tend to agree that it's best to offer *help* to non violent offenders rather than punishment. I would probably stay in support of punishment for selling drugs to minors.

 

:iagree:

[Heather in Neverland]

Well, in Malaysia you get the death penalty if you are caught selling drugs. It is in BIG RED LETTERS on the customs form you sign when you come into the country. That might be a deterrent?

 

Just kidding.

Sort of.

[Free Indeed]

Well, in Malaysia you get the death penalty if you are caught selling drugs. It is in BIG RED LETTERS on the customs form you sign when you come into the country. That might be a deterrent?

 

Just kidding.

Sort of.

 

LOVE IT!!! :D

[Laurie4b]

I see the initial outlay of $$ being the deterrant rather than prejudices. From reading the article, Portugal did not legalize drugs (that's where you get most of the argument), it decriminalized use of drugs. I would be all for getting people into treatment. Though the initial cost would be higher, the long-term costs are probably lower. I think we've had clean needle programs in some places in the US already. I don't think all these ideas are new.

[Laurie4b]

I think the "solution" to the drug problem is to figure out how people get to a place where illicit drugs seem like a good idea (or the only option) in the first place and address that. .

 

The illegal drug users that I have known did it for fun & kicks--they liked the way the substance made them feel. Some kept doing it for fun . It was often the "risk-taker" personalities or the nonconformist types who kept doing it for fun. (ie Some used drugs precisely because they were risky because taking risks was fun to them.) Some got hooked on something or other. This is primarily from my experiences of friends in college. I didn't know any heroine users, but that's about it. Every single one of them knew the dangers; they just pooh-poohed them, being young.

[jld]

Yes, America is full of people just like anywhere else. It would work. However, yes, the war against drugs- mainly the media's brainwashing- has created so much prejudice that there would have to be a big turn around and I doubt the government woudl be willing to go there...yet....but it is heartening to see that people are looking at such things at least (hopefully here too). Change often takes a long time.

 

There is a lot of corruption at high places when it comes to drugs, though. I read the other day (loosely paraphrasing) that only something like 20% of the world's heroine came out of Afganistan a decade ago. Now that it is occupied, something like 90% of the world's heroine is coming out of there. Its not a nice business, war. And there is a lot of black market, international, high level stuff going on. It's not so easy to research that another way of handling drug addiction and the crime form drugs is available and far more effective- here's proof- let's change. The poeple who want to make the changes will be villified by the people who have investments in the actual criminal corruption, who are also involved in policy making.

 

What a powerful post, Peela. Thank you.

[jld]

I see the initial outlay of $$ being the deterrant rather than prejudices. From reading the article, Portugal did not legalize drugs (that's where you get most of the argument), it decriminalized use of drugs. I would be all for getting people into treatment. Though the initial cost would be higher, the long-term costs are probably lower. I think we've had clean needle programs in some places in the US already. I don't think all these ideas are new.

 

I see your point, Laurie, but don't you think there is some prejudice, too? Don't people blame drug users, instead of trying to understand why they may have gotten started and why they've stayed in?

 

You know, on this and, I've read, a lot of other issues, it's not as though different, more effective ways of handling things are not known; it's that there isn't the will to try them.

[Impish]

I don't know what the answer is.

 

Here, minor amounts of pot get ignored. 'Personal use' amounts.

 

Plus, you can get an Rx for it. I've asked my pain specialist about it, since it is used for nerve pain, but he doesn't Rx it. Didn't object to me *trying* it, mind you, just not something he Rx's. I figured he's the expert, I'd go with whatever he deemed ok.

 

Hilarious (not really) part is that the meds I get from him are more valuable on the street than pot. Go figure :001_huh::lol:

 

Addiction isn't a one note issue. Alcohol is addictive, but we sell it all over...same with nicotine.

 

I don't know what the answer is...But when the term 'meth orphan' is common to police and social workers, something has got to give...unfortunately, its usually the front line workers that break.

[Garga]

The illegal drug users that I have known did it for fun & kicks--they liked the way the substance made them feel. Some kept doing it for fun . It was often the "risk-taker" personalities or the nonconformist types who kept doing it for fun. (ie Some used drugs precisely because they were risky because taking risks was fun to them.) Some got hooked on something or other. This is primarily from my experiences of friends in college. I didn't know any heroine users, but that's about it. Every single one of them knew the dangers; they just pooh-poohed them, being young.

 

Yup. My coworker would come to work and mention taking ecstasy at the clubs on Saturday night. But at the same time, he was working full time and getting an MBA. He would also smoke pot. He saw absolutely nothing wrong with any of it.

 

He was young, the drugs made him feel good, so he felt, "Why not!?"

[dancer67]

If this country could figure out a way to "tax" these drugs, it would be legal.

 

I'm just sayin'

[jld]

Yup. My coworker would come to work and mention taking ecstasy at the clubs on Saturday night. But at the same time, he was working full time and getting an MBA. He would also smoke pot. He saw absolutely nothing wrong with any of it.

 

He was young, the drugs made him feel good, so he felt, "Why not!?"

 

How about this, Garga? My sister used to work at a law firm where one of the lawyers had just come from the DEA in Miami. He admitted to her he himself regularly used cocaine.

[dancer67]

Why is selling alcohol legal, yet drugs are not?

 

We have drunk drivers? yes.

 

But our government makes tax $$ on that, so I guess they are not all that concerned about that.

 

Why is there such a drug problem? Well, society for one. Second, there are shooting, stabbings etc, because drugs are illegal. Guns get stolen for a drug deal gone bad.

 

Hmmm, never heard of an alcohol deal gone bad. Excpet that drunk driver who hit and killed a young family on the way to a Christmas party.

[Tarreymere]

Most of the drug users I have known used drugs for fun initially and later became addicted. They didn't start using drugs because they had some kind of horribly oppressed life or felt abused or something. They were looking for a good time. I think it is a waste of money to counsel these people, they went into using drugs knowing that it could really mess them up and because they felt they could take the risk and get away with it. They all can rationalize why using their drug of choice is working for them. No amount of counseling is going to change that choice unless the drug user chooses to make a change, usually because of experiencing some really adverse consequences from using, not from talking to some counselor.

I have a daughter who sold heroin, because she could make a lot of money doing it with little effort. There is no counseling or cure for this kind of willful, chosen stupidity. Personally I think that Malaysia has a great idea - death penalty for selling drugs. All of the willfully stupid people I know would be able to understand and respect that kind of consequence.

[Joanne]

Most of the drug users I have known used drugs for fun initially and later became addicted. They didn't start using drugs because they had some kind of horribly oppressed life or felt abused or something. They were looking for a good time. I think it is a waste of money to counsel these people, they went into using drugs knowing that it could really mess them up and because they felt they could take the risk and get away with it. They all can rationalize why using their drug of choice is working for them. No amount of counseling is going to change that choice unless the drug user chooses to make a change, usually because of experiencing some really adverse consequences from using, not from talking to some counselor.

I have a daughter who sold heroin, because she could make a lot of money doing it with little effort. There is no counseling or cure for this kind of willful, chosen stupidity. Personally I think that Malaysia has a great idea - death penalty for selling drugs. All of the willfully stupid people I know would be able to understand and respect that kind of consequence.

 

 

Hm. As a clean and sober (nearly 20 years) woman who is nearing the end of her training to be a counselor, your perspective is not mine. I agree that addicts need to want help, but I also believe in the power of the therapeutic alliance and of my profession.

 

Most of the people who were recreational users of street drugs that *I* knew did not become addicted. I will agree, however, that the reasons they chose to try or experiement in the first place varied widely and could not consistently be correlated with abuse, divorce, etc. I'm willing to bet on a genetic/family correlation, however.

 

I also think it's a mistake to lump all street drugs together. Smoking pot is not the same as using meth. :glare: I am not a believer that pot is *not* a gateway drug, but I am also not a believer that all street drug use should be punishable.

 

I think the fact that some drugs are addictive by nature (crack, meth, etc.) makes them different than alcohol or pot (which you can become addicted to, but are not addictive inherently).

 

For *my* kids, I've told them their best bet is to never try. They are screwed genetically with both parents.

 

I don't believe that throwing money at incarceration and the court system for street drug use has gotten "us" anywhere productive.

[Chris in VA]

There's been little to no criminal penalty for the drug use of my son and his friends--and tons of treatment.

And no change in behaviour. Maybe, tho, seeds were planted that may take root.

I don't see that treatment is some magic thing that makes people clean. I don't see jail as a major deterrant to an addicted brain.

It's just so complicated, as Joanne said.

Sure wish I knew the answer.

[Laurie4b]

I see your point, Laurie, but don't you think there is some prejudice, too? Don't people blame drug users, instead of trying to understand why they may have gotten started and why they've stayed in?

 

You know, on this and, I've read, a lot of other issues, it's not as though different, more effective ways of handling things are not known; it's that there isn't the will to try them.

 

 

No, I really don't think there is a lot of prejudice; there are always judgmental people, but I don't think there is a great wave of judgmentalism toward users of the sort that would like to see them in jail versus treatment. It's a different ballgame once you get to attitudes toward dealers and a lot of squeamishness/fear about making drugs legal, but that is not what Portugal did. What Portugal did is precisely what some communities in the US have done already. It's not really all that avant garde.

 

Don't people blame drug users? (for what?) Most people know/knew people who use drugs. People may certainly speak negatively about addicts (of some substances) because they suck the life out of people they know, but I don't think most people want them thrown in jail if treatment would work. Now if they don't do treatment or they do it repeatedly and it has no effect and they are harming others (their kids, stealing, etc.) then that attitude changes. But an addict who is primarily harming him/herself? I think most people would rather see that person in treatment than in jail.

 

Like I said in an earlier post, I don't see any purpose whatsoever in understanding why they got started--it would be one of those stupid government studies people roll their eyes at. The bulk of people start because it is fun and risky and the risky part contributes to the fun. People continue because they have personalities that are more risk-taking or nonconformist or because their genetic make-up wires them more easily to become addicted or because they have a mood disorder and are self-medicating. This holds true whether the user is rich or poor, good family or dysfunctional, etc. etc. We don't need a study for that either; we already know this stuff. So I wouldn't support more studies unless they were targeted at understanding the genetics and how to help people with that.