Why do people say this country was founded on Christian beliefs?

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

This is not to start a debate about whether or not this country was founded on Christian beliefs, but I'm just generally interested in where this idea comes from. Do people learn this in school? Church? From family?

 

As far as I learned in school, this country was founded on the political philosophies of a group of men, most of whom were interested in keeping church and state separate. So, why this belief that we are a Christian country founded on Christian beliefs?

 

ETA: I suppose I should specify that by this country I mean the USA

Edited December 21, 2010 by thescrappyhomeschooler

[dcjlkplus3]

This is not to start a debate about whether or not this country was founded on Christian beliefs, but I'm just generally interested in where this idea comes from. Do people learn this in school? Church? From family?

 

As far as I learned in school, this country was founded on the political philosophies of a group of men, most of whom were interested in keeping church and state separate. So, why this belief that we are a Christian country founded on Christian beliefs?

 

ETA: I suppose I should specify that by this country I mean the USA

 

 

Many of the founders were devout christians who wanted the freedom to practice their religion without the government's interference. They were coming from Europe where the governments controlled which and how religions were practiced. They did want to have to be catholic, or protestant, or anglican, or lutheran, or whatever just because their king or queen was. Also their religious beliefs influenced their political beliefs.

[Blueridge]

Here is David Barton's site. It is Christian, and contains so many great articles and information that you might find informative.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/

[jld]

Well, something doesn't have to be true to be useful for advancing one's ideological beliefs, right?

 

Just my very cynical opinion, lol.

[cathmom]

Well, something doesn't have to be true to be useful for advancing one's ideological beliefs, right?

 

Just my very cynical opinion, lol.

 

:iagree:

 

Some of the first settlers, who came here for their own religious freedom, denied it to others.

[TXMary2]

Historically, it is clear that one of the main reasons people came to the new world was for religous freedom. Our laws stem from the ten commandments, our founders were largely christians and they mention God, Christ, and traditional christian beliefs and thoughts in many of their writings. There is so much more, but from that right there - it is fair to say that the US was founded on christian principles.

[Hannah C.]

Oo, I just finished writing my thesis on this!! (Well, more specifically it was on religion in state constitutions between 1776 and 1791, but still.) :D

 

I think people say this country was founded on Christian beliefs because they grow up learning that it was, or they hear people say that it was. Books about the colonial time period often give that impression, and with good reason.

 

When I was writing my thesis, I found out that religion was very, very present in state constitutions and in public life in general at the time of the Founding. However, the Revolution did not happen for religious reasons, it happened for political and philosophical reasons. People invoked God in the cause of the Revolution, but it was in the same way that anyone who believes in a god will invoke that god in support of this cause they have great faith in. So America was not founded on Christian beliefs, because Christianity had very little to do with the reasons for breaking away and making a new country.

 

It is true, however, that religious freedom as we know it today simply didn't exist in the states up to 1791. (That was where my research stopped..not saying that's when religious freedom suddenly sprang into being! :D ) Rhode Island had freedom of religion in its charter (it modified its charter instead of making a new constitution). *ALL* the other states, except for Connecticut which also just modified its charter, had things *in their constitutions* which would violate our modern-day idea of religious freedom. I only looked at laws about religion in Virginia and Massachusetts, and both of those states had "blue laws" which basically enforced Christian morality. So Virginia, which had true religious freedom in its constitution, didn't have true religious freedom in practice. Protestants definitely had preference given to them in the majority of states' constitutions. So, America was, in effect, a Christian nation. But, again, Christianity was not one of the pillars on which it was founded, because Christianity had little to do with the reasons they broke away and the government made at the federal level. At the state level, things were definitely Christian..nearly always Protestant Christian.

 

I also found in my research that most people who supported religious freedom at the time did so because of their strong Christian faith. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, who were not traditionally Christian and supported religious freedom and separation of church and state for philosophical reasons, were in the minority in their reasoning.

 

Sorry, I definitely got into the "was it actually a Christian nation?" Not trying to debate either...maybe I got over-excited. :o Either way, hope this helps. :)

Edited December 21, 2010 by Hannah C.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

Okay, let me re-word this. If you believe that this country was founded on Christian beliefs, how did you come about this belief? Through school, your parents, church, reading?

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

Oo, I just finished writing my thesis on this!! (Well, more specifically it was on religion in state constitutions between 1776 and 1791, but still.) :D

 

I think people say this country was founded on Christian beliefs because they grow up learning that it was, or they hear people say that it was. Books about the colonial time period often give that impression, and with good reason.

 

When I was writing my thesis, I found out that religion was very, very present in state constitutions and in public life in general at the time of the Founding. However, the Revolution did not happen for religious reasons, it happened for political and philosophical reasons. People invoked God in the cause of the Revolution, but it was in the same way that anyone who believes in a god will invoke that god in support of this cause they have great faith in. So America was not founded on Christian beliefs, because Christianity had very little to do with the reasons for breaking away and making a new country.

 

It is true, however, that religious freedom as we know it today simply didn't exist in the states up to 1791. Rhode Island had freedom of religion in its charter (it modified its charter instead of making a new constitution). *ALL* the other states, except for Connecticut which also just modified its charter, had things *in their constitutions* which would violate our modern-day idea of religious freedom. Protestants definitely had preference given to them in the majority of states. So, America was, in effect, a Christian nation, but it wasn't founded to be that way.

 

I also found in my research that most people who supported religious freedom at the time did so because of their strong Christian faith. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, who were not traditionally Christian and supported religious freedom and separation of church and state for philosophical reasons, were in the minority in their reasoning.

 

Sorry, I definitely got into the "was it actually a Christian nation?" Not trying to debate either...maybe I got over-excited. :o Either way, hope this helps. :)

 

Cool!

[Carol in Cal.]

It's difficult to overstate how all-pervasive protestant Christian beliefs were in the colonial period.

 

Most homes had two books--the Bible and Fox's Book of Martyrs. Kids learned to read so that they could read the Bible. Literacy was very high because of that impetus. So was comprehensive general knowledge of the Bible, including memorized Bible verses, which were routinely assigned in public schools. All public meetings included prayers. English language literature of the period contains so many Biblical references that it's almost impossible to adequately footnote it--that's because literally everyone 'got' the allusions.

 

Even non-believers were expected (and in some states required by law) to attend church every Sunday, and businesses were required by law to shut down on Sundays.

 

Most of our founding documents contain Biblical references, and I believe that all of them assume the existance of God. The Star Spangled Banner, our national anthem, has a Christian verse, as does America.

 

The premise of separation of church and state was not ever envisioned going as far as it does today. It was envisioned in the context of a fundamentally Christian society in which no specific Christian denomination would be supported above others by any government.

 

This has all changed, a lot, in interpretation. But studying original sources makes these conclusions undeniable.

 

Having said that, I do not call the US a Christian nation. I favor the separation of church and state, and taking it further than the founders intended. But I don't want to change our history to make it suit those views of mine.

[Mejane]

As far as I learned in school, this country was founded on the political philosophies of a group of men, most of whom were interested in keeping church and state separate. So, why this belief that we are a Christian country founded on Christian beliefs?

 

 

 

Many people don't bother to read beyond the fact that many of the "founding fathers" self-identified as Christian, but were deists who were adamant that church and state remain separate. Or, as jld said, it's convenient to 'forget' that when it doesn't jibe with one's own ideology.

[Carol in Cal.]

:iagree:

 

Some of the first settlers, who came here for their own religious freedom, denied it to others.

 

This is not quite it--the settlers mostly didn't come for religious freedom in general; they came for the freedom to exercise their OWN religious views, and, as was customary in their home countries, they mostly tended to impose their views in their own new locales. The Quakers in Pennsylvania were a counter-example, but an unusual one.

[cathmom]

This is not quite it--the settlers mostly didn't come for religious freedom in general; they came for the freedom to exercise their OWN religious views.

 

Isn't that what I said?

[LizzyBee]

Okay, let me re-word this. If you believe that this country was founded on Christian beliefs, how did you come about this belief? Through school, your parents, church, reading?

 

Primarily by reading about that time period.

[jld]

I think making money was a big reason this country was founded. The founding fathers didn't want to be ruled by England and pay taxes to England when they could be the big bosses here. I think Howard Zinn backs up this idea.

 

I do agree, though, that they had some pretty progressive ideas, like freedom of speech and freedom of religion. And I read recently that Jefferson was scared of big banks -- talk about a prophet! (From 13 Bankers, by Simon Johnson and James Kwaak)

[kewb]

Beats the heck out of me. It is very clear to me from studying history that the founding fathers believed in a higher authority but no where does it say Christian Country. They believed in freedom from religion which is very different from freedom of religion. They did not want a ruler telling them what religion they had to practice.

[jld]

Okay, let me re-word this. If you believe that this country was founded on Christian beliefs, how did you come about this belief? Through school, your parents, church, reading?

 

I was taught very clearly in Catholic school that the founders (the big names, anyway) were deists, believing in a sort of hands-off ultimate power.

 

The sad thing is that once people's beliefs are set in their minds, you cannot show them any amount of proof to convince them otherwise.

[Parrothead]

Many people don't bother to read beyond the fact that many of the "founding fathers" self-identified as Christian, but were deists who were adamant that church and state remain separate. Or, as jld said, it's convenient to 'forget' that when it doesn't jibe with one's own ideology.

I probably shouldn't be joining this conversation since I'm once again suffering from a head cold, but the whole "separation of chruch and state" just bugs me. I just can't let it go by without commenting. And I'm not calling on you, Mejane, in particular. You post just happened to be the first one on page two.

 

IMHO the Establishment clause is not meant to keep God out of the government, it is meant to keep the government from establishing a state religion. Those are two very different concepts.

 

Okay, I've said my peace and I'm going to let those who have clear heads carry on the discussion.

 

 

OP, to answer your question, I do not think the US was founded on Christian beliefs. I think the country was founded on the models of Greece and Rome by God-fearing (not necessarily Christians) men.

[Mejane]

I think making money was a big reason this country was founded. The founding fathers didn't want to be ruled by England and pay taxes to England when they could be the big bosses here. I think Howard Zinn backs up this idea.

 

 

 

I tend to agree with this. Jamestown was primarily a business venture, and the Puritans came here only after their Holland experience didn't work out. The FF were all about creating a new government sans monarch; religion didn't have much to do with it.

[Hannah C.]

IMHO the Establishment clause is not meant to keep God out of the government, it is meant to keep the government from establishing a state religion. Those are two very different concepts.

 

Stephen Waldman, in his book Founding Faith, says that the First Amendment was more about states' rights than anything. At the time it was drafted, all of the states had different positions on religion in their constitutions. The First Amendment, he says, was both a declaration that the federal government had to stay out of religion...and that the states *could* be involved in it! The First Amendment wasn't applied to the states until after the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified. In fact, I'm fairly certain the entire Bill of Rights didn't apply to the states at the beginning, only to the federal government.

 

Separation of church and state *did not exist* in the states at the time of the Founding. It simply wasn't there.

[Mejane]

 

IMHO the Establishment clause is not meant to keep God out of the government, it is meant to keep the government from establishing a state religion. Those are two very different concepts.

 

 

:iagree: I just meant that there are those who would seem content to 'forget' it exists at all.

[Carol in Cal.]

Isn't that what I said?

 

I didn't read it that way, but if that's what you meant, cool!

[Rivka]

This is not to start a debate about whether or not this country was founded on Christian beliefs,

 

I admire your simple, touching faith in the board's ability to discuss this without a debate.

 

In the meantime, it seems a little close to the holidays to crack open a beer. Anyone want to join me in some hot cider with a shot of rum? :tongue_smilie:

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I admire your simple, touching faith in the board's ability to discuss this without a debate.

 

In the meantime, it seems a little close to the holidays to crack open a beer. Anyone want to join me in some hot cider with a shot of rum? :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol::lol:

 

Well, I have a cold, so I'm enjoying this thread with a cup of tea with lemon and honey, but I'm about to make it into a hot toddy if the debate heats up! :lol::lol:

[OnTheBrink]

I was taught very clearly in Catholic school that the founders (the big names, anyway) were deists, believing in a sort of hands-off ultimate power.

 

The sad thing is that once people's beliefs are set in their minds, you cannot show them any amount of proof to convince them otherwise.

 

Why would you want to? Doesn't that sort of go both ways?

[Mom-ninja.]

I don't know why people think the country was founded on Christianity. I never did. I was never taught that it was. I was taught that the Founders wanted religion to not be mixed with personal religious beliefs.

 

I agree with Mejane, about how people like to forget.

[cathmom]

:iagree:

 

Some of the first settlers, who came here for their own religious freedom, denied it to others.

 

This is not quite it--the settlers mostly didn't come for religious freedom in general; they came for the freedom to exercise their OWN religious views, and, as was customary in their home countries, they mostly tended to impose their views in their own new locales. The Quakers in Pennsylvania were a counter-example, but an unusual one.

 

I didn't read it that way, but if that's what you meant, cool!

 

Yep, that's what I meant! Maybe you skipped the word "own" in mine? :001_smile:

[alpidarkomama]

Some of the first settlers, who came here for their own religious freedom, denied it to others.

 

Yep. The colonists in Savannah, GA accepted the Jews because they arrived with a doctor and a winemaker. Not true with most other colonies!

[elizabeth]

I admire your simple, touching faith in the board's ability to discuss this without a debate.

 

In the meantime, it seems a little close to the holidays to crack open a beer. Anyone want to join me in some hot cider with a shot of rum? :tongue_smilie:

 

What a splendid idea!!!:cheers2:

[susankenny]

Here is David Barton's site. It is Christian, and contains so many great articles and information that you might find informative.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/

 

 

Yes. This.

 

Susan

[Cricket]

Many, but not all, of the early settlers came so they could freely practice their religion. When they arrived, they set up colonies where they could rule according to their own religion. As a pp said, there was no separation of church and state. The laws of the individual colonies were based on religion (in this case, Christian). [An interesting aside, there was no religious freedom in the colonies. In Massachusetts the Puritans kept to themselves and the Pilgrims did as well. The Puritans even had laws forbidding Quakers in their part of the colony. Quakers that did come were imprisoned and eventually made to leave. When they kept coming back, the leaders decided to lop off an ear, then the other ear after a second offense. Finally some were even hung.] I think it is a fair statement to say that this country was founded upon religious beliefs but I don't think that tells the entire story. Like a pp said, the reasons for the War weren't religious, they were political but I don't think it is correct to ignore the part religion played in our founding.

[Mrs Mungo]

I agree that the early colonists who *did* come to the "New World" for religious freedom were seeking religious for themselves and still persecuted others. Puritans in Boston outlawed Christmas celebrations for over 20 years. You could be fined for not working on Christmas, for having a big meal or otherwise thought to be celebrating.

 

Whosoever shall be found observing any such day as Christmas, or the like, either by forbearing labor, feasting, or any other way upon such account as aforesaid, every such person so offending shall pay for each offense five shillings as a fine to the country.

 

These laws were by and large intended to be anti-Catholic and anti-Anglican. Puritans were destroying church organs with axes even through the Civil War period.

 

Religious groups of varying types eventually grouped together for their own interests and protection.

 

IMHO the Establishment clause is not meant to keep God out of the government, it is meant to keep the government from establishing a state religion. Those are two very different concepts.

 

That really depends upon which founder you're talking about. Thomas Jefferson absolutely believed it should work both ways. Here is THE document that has guided how it is widely interpreted: http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

 

Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson

Jan.1.1802.

[Mejane]

I think it is a fair statement to say that this country was founded upon religious beliefs but I don't think that tells the entire story. Like a pp said, the reasons for the War weren't religious, they were political but I don't think it is correct to ignore the part religion played in our founding.

 

I guess I don't see the country as "founded" until the Revolution. Until then it was still, for all intents and purposes, a part of England.

[Mrs Mungo]

I was just answering the OP...which reads:

 

Why do people say this country was founded on Christian beliefs?

 

She also said: As far as I learned in school, this country was founded on the political philosophies of a group of men, most of whom were interested in keeping church and state separate.

 

Is that true or false in your opinion? Why do you believe the way you do?