grading - s/o expectations

[Julie of KY]

I'd love to hear from more of you who don't give grades for high school and reasons why I should or shouldn't.

 

I could give grades and be happy with it, but I'm not sure they're that meaningful. I expect excellent work and will make my children continue to work until they meet their abilities.

 

For certain kids/courses - my child may be very accelerated and doing excellent work and other courses the same child is not held to the same expectation because they are doing their best at a lower level.

 

I'm afraid that grades can be detrimental - I can just hear one of my kids saying why should he do more if he already has an A. Also what's the point if they can't live up to the expectations of others due to reading or writing difficulties.

 

I could grade based on whether my child did my level of expectation of work, but then I would expect all A's. :)

 

How important are grades really? I suspect homeschool students are more often judged on test scores, interviews, recommendations, etc. but I'm not sure.

[asta]

I'd love to hear from more of you who don't give grades for high school and reasons why I should or shouldn't.

 

I could give grades and be happy with it, but I'm not sure they're that meaningful. I expect excellent work and will make my children continue to work until they meet their abilities.

 

For certain kids/courses - my child may be very accelerated and doing excellent work and other courses the same child is not held to the same expectation because they are doing their best at a lower level.

 

I'm afraid that grades can be detrimental - I can just hear one of my kids saying why should he do more if he already has an A. Also what's the point if they can't live up to the expectations of others due to reading or writing difficulties.

 

I could grade based on whether my child did my level of expectation of work, but then I would expect all A's. :)

 

How important are grades really? I suspect homeschool students are more often judged on test scores, interviews, recommendations, etc. but I'm not sure.

 

I've been chewing on this as well. I give *DS* grades. As in, I tell him "you got X% on this assignment, Y% on this other assignment," etc. and then, at the end of each course, I look at how things went *overall* and assign a letter grade. He could have been god's gift to a subject, but if he fought me every. single. day., he drops a grade (hello, B in biology...). Fair? I'm sure some people wouldn't think so. But antagonizing a college professor wouldn't get him anywhere, either, so I think it is good for him to learn it now. Besides, it has made Chemistry so pleasant :lol:.

 

That said...

 

I don't know what I'm going to do with his final transcript.

 

I teach everything to mastery here. So it isn't like kid is wandering around with a plate full of Fs. He has to re-do things until he understands them. Even if that takes using a different curriculum. But here I run into a conundrum: do I want him to be the kid with a straight A transcript? Will anyone believe that? Sure, he'll have test scores, but...

 

Which leads to the PS inflated grades thread: if the PSs are inflating grades, (and let's face it, the colleges know it), how do some kids compete if they don't have straight As? Not all kids have access to external coursework and rely on sending in a "mommy transcript".

 

It's a mess. I hope I figure it out before I have to write a transcript.

 

 

a

[Sunshine State Sue]

This is a good question. I feel the need to give grades because it's the norm. For NCAA eligibility, I must give grades - if I don't they give Ds or Fs, I can't remember which.

 

So, I've been trying to figure out grades based on the evidence I have compiled so far for 9th grade first semester. For math, my son has a bunch of quizzes, average 82, and a bunch of tests, average 84. Hmm. B? Most of his mistakes are silly. He's a good math student. I suspect in building school, he'd be getting an A. How can I give him an A based on this evidence? Do I stress myself out and attempt to stress him out by making him realize that he must do better on the quizzes and tests? That the quizzes and tests are all important? Hmm. He does all the homework I assign. Schools give credit for completed homework - I can give him 100% for homework especially since we check over absolutely everything especially mistakes. When I toss that in with varying formulas, ex. 1/3 quizzes, 1/3 tests, 1/3 homework or 15% homework, 35% quizzes, 50% tests, I come up with 89. Still a B. Oh, I can give him extra credit for completing every single problem in every single review section, right? So, why do I finagle an A instead of just give it to him?

 

For English, he has 97 on the quizzes (which are rather easy), 83 on the tests (which are rather picky), and a bunch of ungraded papers. I'm not really capable of assigning a grade for papers. Do I pay someone to assign them a grade? Or do I just give him a B because I know that, though he does fairly well with literature, spelling, and grammar, his writing is not A material. He's average, maybe above average, but certainly not excellent.

 

Add to all this mind chatter, the fact that he is taking 2 outsourced classes with teachers who will assign a grade for 2 classes (likely one will be an easy A and the other will be a hard-fought B), and the fact/hope that he will be attending CC next year (the goal is to start with 2 classes), and the powers that be who will look over his transcript when the time comes will ignore mom grades and focus on CC grades, why do I spend so much time wrestling how to come up with grades?

 

Because I need to submit a report card to the local public high school so that ds can continue to play basketball there. Because the NCAA wants grades as well. So, it would be nice to have the evidence to back it up.

 

Hoping that no one will think I'm a madwoman (surely I can't be the only one with this conversation going on in her head), I hit 'Submit Reply'.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Sue in St Pete

[elegantlion]

Hoping that no one will think I'm a madwoman (surely I can't be the only one with this conversation going on in her head), I hit 'Submit Reply'.

 

No, you are not alone. We haven't graded and grades do nothing to motivate my son. But when we get to the high school level I'm feeling like I should grade. *I* am not sure I'm confident enough to not submit grades on a transcript. I also know I could work myself into a frenzy over it and waste time that could be put to better use. I also know that not everything my ds does is at "A" level, so I'd be reluctant to just give As...and so the what ifs and should I, could Is spiral slowly downward into the abyss of high school thought. It's so much easier just to research and pick curriculum.

[Julie of KY]

Which leads to the PS inflated grades thread: if the PSs are inflating grades, (and let's face it, the colleges know it), how do some kids compete if they don't have straight As? Not all kids have access to external coursework and rely on sending in a "mommy transcript".

 

It's a mess. I hope I figure it out before I have to write a transcript.

 

 

a

 

It makes me crazy to think of it sometimes. If my friend's child is in school taking "honors" classes and making A's, but my child is doing more work and understands it better, does that deserve an A?

 

On the flip side, if my child masters 100% of my expectations does that qualify for an A? What if I know these might not be the same standards other students are graded on.

 

The problem with grades is that there is no standard scale to compare students to. Is it a rigourous course or a teacher that lets everything slide? Is the grade inflated because of extra credit? Does the grade reflect the student's work or does it also reflect attendence, good behavior, poor penmanship, tardiness, etc.

 

How do you prepare a transcript without grades? ... and do you offer an alternative transcript with mommy grades upon request?

[asta]

Is it a rigourous course or a teacher that lets everything slide? Is the grade inflated because of extra credit? Does the grade reflect the student's work or does it also reflect attendence, good behavior, poor penmanship, tardiness, etc.

 

How do you prepare a transcript without grades? ... and do you offer an alternative transcript with mommy grades upon request?

 

It all just makes me want to sit in my jammies and eat cookies.

 

:confused:

[Julie of KY]

another question... do grades matter if looking at national merit finalists? in other words do you have to turn in grades/transcript? Of course if you turn in grades, I'm sure they need to be good for national merit finalists.

[Sunshine State Sue]

another question... do grades matter if looking at national merit finalists?

It is my understanding that national merit is determined solely from PSAT scores taken in the junior year of high school. It's why you often see PSAT/NMSQT. It stands for something like National Merit Scholar Qualifying Test?

Edited December 21, 2010 by Sue in St Pete

[Nan in Mass]

I don't give grades. My older one got into college with a transcript that had pass/fail (a very unpopular choice here) for the classes at home, grades for the classes he took at community college, and SAT scores. I organized the transcript according to subject. There were no dates on it, either. Hopefully this will work for the younger one as well. I have heard a number of times that colleges disregard "mummy" grades. I have no idea if that is right.

-Nan

[swimmermom3]

This is a good question. I feel the need to give grades because it's the norm. For NCAA eligibility, I must give grades - if I don't they give Ds or Fs, I can't remember which.

 

So, I've been trying to figure out grades based on the evidence I have compiled so far for 9th grade first semester. For math, my son has a bunch of quizzes, average 82, and a bunch of tests, average 84. Hmm. B? Most of his mistakes are silly. He's a good math student. I suspect in building school, he'd be getting an A. How can I give him an A based on this evidence? Do I stress myself out and attempt to stress him out by making him realize that he must do better on the quizzes and tests? That the quizzes and tests are all important? Hmm. He does all the homework I assign. Schools give credit for completed homework - I can give him 100% for homework especially since we check over absolutely everything especially mistakes. When I toss that in with varying formulas, ex. 1/3 quizzes, 1/3 tests, 1/3 homework or 15% homework, 35% quizzes, 50% tests, I come up with 89. Still a B. Oh, I can give him extra credit for completing every single problem in every single review section, right? So, why do I finagle an A instead of just give it to him?

 

For English, he has 97 on the quizzes (which are rather easy), 83 on the tests (which are rather picky), and a bunch of ungraded papers. I'm not really capable of assigning a grade for papers. Do I pay someone to assign them a grade? Or do I just give him a B because I know that, though he does fairly well with literature, spelling, and grammar, his writing is not A material. He's average, maybe above average, but certainly not excellent.

 

Add to all this mind chatter, the fact that he is taking 2 outsourced classes with teachers who will assign a grade for 2 classes (likely one will be an easy A and the other will be a hard-fought B), and the fact/hope that he will be attending CC next year (the goal is to start with 2 classes), and the powers that be who will look over his transcript when the time comes will ignore mom grades and focus on CC grades, why do I spend so much time wrestling how to come up with grades?

 

Because I need to submit a report card to the local public high school so that ds can continue to play basketball there. Because the NCAA wants grades as well. So, it would be nice to have the evidence to back it up.

 

Hoping that no one will think I'm a madwoman (surely I can't be the only one with this conversation going on in her head), I hit 'Submit Reply'.

 

If you are a madwoman, they can bring the jackets for both of us. My dd's report card is due at the high school in January to keep her on the swim team for her fourth year. This is my first time giving out high school grades. Even though I have a folder for all the high school syllabi that have come through in the past four years, they are no help. I try to look at dd's work as if she were still at ps, then I look at it according to my standards and all I succeed in doing is driving myself nuts.:willy_nilly:

 

My youngest needs to see grades because that is how he operates. My dd was so burned out on school that grades are not of interest. She knows I am tough so praise is earned. She knows that "We'll work on it" means exactly that. This won't cut it for staying on swim team or if she decides to go to college sometime down the road.

[Julie of KY]

This reminds me of my medical school transcipt. As I interviewed for residency programs, no one could interpret my transcript. I would frequently get the comment that they could see that I hadn't failed anything, but beyond that they couldn't interpret it well.

 

Some of the classes were pass/fail. The rest were honors/high pass/pass/fail. The transcript made no note of which grading system was used for which class - just that both were used. So did a pass mean I didn't do well enough to get a high pass/honors, or was it just a class that was only pass/fail - no one knew.

[Julie of KY]

I don't give grades. My older one got into college with a transcript that had pass/fail (a very unpopular choice here) for the classes at home, grades for the classes he took at community college, and SAT scores. I organized the transcript according to subject. There were no dates on it, either. Hopefully this will work for the younger one as well. I have heard a number of times that colleges disregard "mummy" grades. I have no idea if that is right.

-Nan

 

Nan,

Did you get any grief over not giving grades? This is what my heart wants to do and my husband is on board, I'm just not sure of the practical side of college applications and the impact here.

[swimmermom3]

I don't give grades. My older one got into college with a transcript that had pass/fail (a very unpopular choice here) for the classes at home, grades for the classes he took at community college, and SAT scores. I organized the transcript according to subject. There were no dates on it, either. Hopefully this will work for the younger one as well. I have heard a number of times that colleges disregard "mummy" grades. I have no idea if that is right.

-Nan

 

Nan, were your boys ever bothered by not getting grades? Swimmer Dude wouldn't know what to do without them, but half his life is governed by the results on a stop watch so it is understandable. I can make up a grading scale but the slippery slope of how I "feel" about my kids work gets in the way.

[Nan in Mass]

No, but I don't exactly have a large sample size. My son applied to one state school and got in.

 

When I made the decision not to grade, there were a few people on the board who assured me that their children had gotten into college without grades, that it could be done. One of them belonged to a oversight school that didn't give grades. We also had an aquaintance who had a daughter in a private school that didn't grade. She was applying to ivy league and just below ivy league colleges, and getting into them. Her mother reassured me that it could be done. I also talked to several colleges who said they would not be upset by the lack of grades. One admissions person said that if my son didn't test well, I should have him take academic-type classes at the community college to demonstrate that he could do college-level work. I can't remember how many she suggested, maybe three or four? It was higher than I was thinking, though. My son wound up with speech, comp, precalc 1+2, chem 1+2, drawing, and the how-to-use-your-computer class. Although he doesn't test well and, for our family, bombed the SAT (we test rather well on that sort of test), he still landed in the bottom half of the range for his college. When we figured out where exactly he wanted to go, I called the college and asked them if an ungraded transcript would be a problem. They said probably not, especially since he had SAT scores and CC grades, and that at most, they might call me and ask me to give them some sort of indication what sort of student he was. They never asked me. The school is familiar with our particular CC because they recruit there.

 

If I graded, it would encourage my children to play it safe and not stretch themselves and try things they aren't sure they can pull off. Many of the things we do are made up by us. Some of them are things that I can't teach well. My son will get half a credit for sight singing, for example. The goal is for him to be able to sing a not-very-complicated tenor part of something like a Christmas carol. It is taking us a long time to reach that goal because I can't do it either and we banged around awhile before I figured out how to teach it and because his voice changed in the middle and because we pick it up and put it down and have to start over again, etc. Another month or two and he will be able to do what I hoped. How on earth do you grade that? Another example is his history. He is doing middle school history books from France. These are a struggle. If he were in a classroom in France, I doubt he'd be getting a very good grade. Is he learning some history? Yes. Will he remember the history? I don't know - we are seive-brained in this family. It is a real handicap. Is his French improving? Yes. Can he answer the questions? At first he couldn't because he had never had to answer textbook questions for history before and had trouble guaging the scope. Now he does much better, but is limited by his French. If I had to grade him, I wouldn't be able to do this, despite this being a great thing to do. The history book is almost entirely primary sources (translated into modern French) and gorgeously illustrated. It also incorporates geography. His French is improving, too. Another example is science. If I were grading him, I couldn't let him spend a month trying to see the microscopic swimmies that everyone assured him lived in the lake, and yet, trying to figure out how to see them with my old toy microscope was a pretty good simulation of what scientists actually do in real life. How would you grade that? Give him a bad grade because he couldn't do it right away? Not let him attempt it until I had figured out how to do it first and then given him directions that worked? What about the insect legs he built? Those failed, but he learned a lot in the process of building them. My children try papers that don't work, too, since they almost always pick their own topics. I also feel unqualified to grade. Grading would require that I set goals that are attainable GRIN. We try all sorts of things that don't work. Or we do things TWTM-style - by doing one procedure for four years, beginning by being unable to do it at all and ending by being able to do it fairly easily. Grading that would require that I know what constitutes an appropriately bad job. Experienced teachers solve this problem by giving students assignments that they should be able to do and then gradually making them more and more difficult. I can't do that and if I let somebody else do that for us, I can't tailor the learning to my particular child as well.

 

-Nan

 

ETA - I am not recommending that everyone else not grade. I have no idea how many colleges do or don't like this approach. The ones I appoarched didn't have a problem with it, as long as we had SAT scores and CC grades, but I didn't ask very many.

 

PPS - The reason I gave pass/fail grades is because when I formatted the transcript, I wanted to include grades for the CC classes and they were scattered throughout. It looked less odd to put something down in the grade spot for our at-home grades than to leave it blank. If there had been no CC grades, I would not have bothered. People like Ellie, who has a ton of experience with these things, say that colleges don't like to see pass/fail.

Edited December 22, 2010 by Nan in Mass

[Nan in Mass]

Mine older son could not understand why on earth we would have grades when I suggested them at the beginning of 9th grade. He saw how they would hamper us before I did (not surprising, since he was the one doing the work). My youngest would probably enjoy the competative aspect of grades, but they would also encourage him to quit when he had an A, rather than keep going until his curiosity is satisfied. He has never asked for grades. If he has done a good job, he is pleased with himself. If he has been lazy, he knows it. Occasionally, I have to tell him he is too old to be producing that sort work. I think he is the type of child who would rather have a self-grading, check-off-each-assignment, totally independent program, but I don't think that would be as good for his intellectual growth as muddling about half on his own in a pretty unstructured way and half with me forcing him to do more than he would be inclined to do on his own. He never has had grades until this semester in CC. We always chose his gyms to be the sort where the gymnasts sometimes don't even know what level they are competing at and nobody minds if they do badly at competitions except the children themselves. Not a good way to grow a high level, competative gymnast. Mine have felt competative and worked hard some years, and other years, they've taken it easy and just enjoyed themselves. School has gone similarly.

 

-Nan

Edited December 22, 2010 by Nan in Mass

[Tiramisu]

I recently planned on assigning an A- for Latin 2 based primarily on test grades. Then I was having second thoughts because I'm not as involved with Latin on a daily basis, so I asked dh, dd's Latin teacher who teaches Latin in a high school, "What would you give her?" He said if she were in his class she'd get an A because she has excellent understanding and gets among the highest grades on the same tests.

 

Last year, I realized that I was "taking off points" for laziness and a bad attitude in certain subjects but not giving credit for daily work well done. Once I considered what she put in every day, I felt better about the grades I was giving.

[flyingiguana]

I see my kids every single day. I know exactly how much of the time they spend goofing off, exactly how bad their attitude is, etc, so I'd be likely to assign lower grades than they actually deserve, if I graded.

 

But when I compare what they know to what the local high schoolers know, I can see that my kids are at least as good as many of the star students at the local high school. I think many homeschool parents don't have that comparison. So they feel they should grade their own kids a lot harder.

 

But then I wondered why I would give grades, and unfortunately, I wondered if it would change the dynamic between me and my kids. My role as teacher and helper would get transformed into taskmaster. The result would be that they wouldn't trust me to teach them anymore. That was the last thing we needed.

 

I wouldn't have graded at all, except that many colleges give out scholarships based on high school grades. A lot of them also look at test scores, but several schools we dealt with were not going to consider my daughter for scholarships unless they had something in that magic GPA box. So, to save us all a lot of grief, I came up with some grades. To make my life easier, I just made them all A's. I figured she knew the material. I considered giving her a couple B's here and there just to make the transcript "believable" but then I couldn't figure out which class she supposedly did worse in. And was I then penalizing her for having been homeschooled when she could very well have made straight A's in a standard school?

 

And WHAT would I have based a lower grade on? Her average from a number of quizzes and tests from some curriculum that was probably written by someone who knew LESS about the subject than I did? When a lot of the "right" answers on those tests are just wrong? And what would the grade cut offs be? Just because some school district mandates 93 percent and above is an A doesn't mean I should do that. (A 93 percent, or any number, does not mean the student understands the material.) And why, if she got an answer wrong, would I not just explain it to her until she understood it, meaning she would then have an A?

 

I never gave grades while we were doing the "classes", but when it came time to do a transcript for college, it looked easier to just give a grade. Then I didn't have to explain anything, or attach lengthy descriptions that they probably were going to ignore. The grades were a quick way shorthand. It also looked like avoiding grades might disadvantage my daughter. I decided it was better to give grades and let the college discount them, then to not give any grades.

 

As it has turned out, the straight A, 4.0 average I gave her was probably too low. If she'd gone to a traditional high school, she would have had AP courses and honors courses and weighted grades and likely would have ended up with a GPA that was above 4.0. And now that she's in college, it's become obvious that my not grading for all those years hasn't had a negative impact on her behavior. She is generally the only kid in her classes who turns everything in on time, who studies diligently, and who always shows up to class. Grades in high school aren't necessary to get that sort of diligence in college.

 

With my second daughter, once again, I'm avoiding giving grades while she's actually doing the classes.

[dirty ethel rackham]

It is my understanding that national merit is determined solely from PSAT scores taken in the junior year of high school. It's why you often see PSAT/NMSQT. It stands for something like National Merit Scholar Qualifying Test?

 

Actually, the score on the test qualifies one for the scholarship program. After that, there are more hoops that include a transcript and an essay. So, it is not just the test.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Actually, the score on the test qualifies one for the scholarship program. After that, there are more hoops that include a transcript and an essay. So, it is not just the test.

I stand corrected. I learn something new every day....:001_smile:

[LidiyaDawn]

We've never done 'grades'. Grades, in the public school system, exist to tell OTHERS what a student has accomplished - look ma! all A's! - and we don't need that. We know what we've accomplished. :)

[EKS]

We've never done 'grades'. Grades, in the public school system, exist to tell OTHERS what a student has accomplished - look ma! all A's! - and we don't need that. We know what we've accomplished. :)

 

Don't homeschoolers have a need to tell others in a concise way what a student has accomplished as well? Particularly homeschooled high school students?