s/o False Gods/Idols (cc)

[Mrs. Frankweiler]

I don't know where to put this thread---curriculum or general, but I think maybe it just might be more appropriate here.

 

Background info: We're Catholic. I'm using CLE reading with the kids. I love the program and I knew going in we might come across a few things that didn't mesh with our beliefs, and I was ok with that--I'd just explain to the kids that this is what some people believe, but we believe this way....discuss if necessary.

 

Anyway, my 3rd grader and I have come across a few stories regarding idols & false gods. In one of them, a non-Christian family is worshiping some little idols in their home and they can't understand why life is just not working out for them. The little boy in the story hears some missionaries talking about the One True God, and so he tries to "test" his family's gods. (blowing out the candle, hiding the little statue under his bed) Life is hard for the family until the father decides to throw the statues into the river and follow the One True God of the missionaries, then life becomes wonderful again. (This is a very abridged version!) The main point of the story is that those people who pray to statues and "idols" are going down the wrong path and just not as enlightened as those of us who worship the One True God. Once they change their ways and stop worshipping "a block of wood," good things will start to happen to them.

 

So I'm reading this thinking, "This is going to totally confuse dd because (as any Catholic knows) there are statues all over the place at church," and I'm preparing my theological explanation. At a break, dd says, "Well, Mom, everyone knows God isn't IN the statue. It's just a statue....like a picture...of someone we love." Then the conversation turned to how it was kind of disrespectful for the dad to throw the statues into the river because it would sort of be like tearing up a picture of someone you love. We talked about it, and the discussion was a great way to introduce respect for other religions etc....

 

I think the whole episode went pretty well, but later in my grown up brain I'm wondering, "Is this what other religions think of Catholics? That we're just a bunch of idol worshipers?" I'm a cradle Catholic, went to Catholic schools, married a Catholic, etc.... As an adult most of my friends haven't been Catholic, but this isn't something I would feel comfortable discussing with them....which is why I'm asking the hive. Is this a common belief among non-Catholics? I know in the past there have been these misunderstandings between the different faiths, but I (maybe naively) thought that nowadays people don't really think that, do they?

I do know that there's still some misunderstandings about the Catholics' relationship to Mary, but does a statue of Jesus (or maybe the Holy Family) still cause such a stir for others?

 

I'm not wanting to start up a debate among religions, but maybe just a gentle discussion on some of the misunderstandings.

[....]

We're traditional Lutheran and we use a LOT of CLE. So far, we've been OK.

 

As far as misconceptions, someone (they were Baptist) asked me one time if we're just "going through the motions" when we go through our liturgy - you know..the confession/absolution, reciting the Apostle's Creed or Nicene Creed, reciting the 10 commandments (our church recites these as part of our service), the Kyrie/other songs, etc...). :confused: I was a little confused on that. I mean, I guess there could be someone in the congregation going through the motions... In this day and age, I think if you ARE attending service, you probably WANT to attend service.

 

I don't know. It's sad that we all have misconceptions about each other and are segregated into denominations. I think we should all just merge back together and everybody bring all their ideas to the table. Wonder what our pastor would say to that comment. :tongue_smilie:

[mommaduck]

Yes, it's what particular other Christian faiths believe about Catholics (and Orthodox). CLE is basically the Mennonite version of LifePacs. I don't recommend them or Rod & Staff for these type of reasons. An older R&S Grammar book I used to have had passage after passage of cutting down Catholic, Calvinist, and Jewish faiths. Having a lot of experience with the people that put out R&S and work for R&S, I know that this is truly how they feel and believe. Basically, in their minds, Catholics are nothing more than superstitious idolaters doomed to hell (unless they can get you to change your ways). Sad, but true. Many very fundamentalist baptists taught the same thing.

 

(I was raised IFB, have anabaptist family, and am now Orthodox with icons on my walls ;) )

[lionfamily1999]

This has been gone over in here before. The praying to Saints was cleared up as well as idol worship.

<-------- Christian Baptist, but not condeming fellow Christians to hell, even if they have different methods.

[....]

This has been gone over in here before.

 

And probably many, many times. As they say on Battlestar Galactica: "All of this has happened before and it will all happen again." Because Battlestar Galactica applies to TWTM forums also.

[mommaduck]

This has been gone over in here before. The praying to Saints was cleared up as well as idol worship.

<-------- Christian Baptist, but not condeming fellow Christians to hell, even if they have different methods.

And though we've cleared it up here at WTM's, where people are more open to understanding, there are still plenty out there and even writing curricula that aren't understanding and don't care to. It's something we all face at times on one thing or another and, yes, homeschooling parents should be aware of what the curricula they buy supports and teaches ;)

[Onceuponatime]

I think the whole episode went pretty well, but later in my grown up brain I'm wondering, "Is this what other religions think of Catholics? That we're just a bunch of idol worshipers?" I'm a cradle Catholic, went to Catholic schools, married a Catholic, etc.... As an adult most of my friends haven't been Catholic, but this isn't something I would feel comfortable discussing with them....which is why I'm asking the hive. Is this a common belief among non-Catholics? I know in the past there have been these misunderstandings between the different faiths, but I (maybe naively) thought that nowadays people don't really think that, do they?

I do know that there's still some misunderstandings about the Catholics' relationship to Mary, but does a statue of Jesus (or maybe the Holy Family) still cause such a stir for others?

 

I'm not wanting to start up a debate among religions, but maybe just a gentle discussion on some of the misunderstandings.

 

It really depends who you are talking to. I've found that private opinions vary much more than public opinions, if that makes sense.

 

I can tell you that when I was growing up if someone wanted to stop (fundamental protestant) church members from doing something they might say, "the Catholics do that." It seemed to be an unanswerable argument that no one questioned. I know it sounds harsh, but that was my experience.

 

I've noticed that most people now are not so quick to judge. If you hear the above statement now, it usually comes from an older person. These people will not have religious art of any kind in their homes or the church. No crosses, no nativities, etc. A good friend of ours got berated for having a copy of The Last Supper on her living room wall, but that was 30 years ago. I don't think it would be an issue today.

 

That said, disparaging iconography has been part of the protestant tradition for hundreds of years. It is associated with the "graven image" of the Old Testament. The Quakers believed (I don't know if they still do) that any picture or statue of any subject was a graven image.

[LND1218]

I think the whole episode went pretty well, but later in my grown up brain I'm wondering, "Is this what other religions think of Catholics? That we're just a bunch of idol worshipers?" ...I (maybe naively) thought that nowadays people don't really think that, do they?

I do know that there's still some misunderstandings about the Catholics' relationship to Mary, but does a statue of Jesus (or maybe the Holy Family) still cause such a stir for others?

 

I'm not wanting to start up a debate among religions, but maybe just a gentle discussion on some of the misunderstandings.

 

Simply answering this question in bold (but not answering it "personally")... You asked about other religions and what they think of Catholics. And yes there are those who do believe this.

 

And the last question - Yes, to some a statue of Jesus would cause a stir.

 

There are differing opinions on this, but there are those who absolutely believe this.

 

I won't say this is a prevalent belief among TWTM forums but I could be wrong.

[Mrs. Frankweiler]

This has been gone over in here before. The praying to Saints was cleared up as well as idol worship.

<-------- Christian Baptist, but not condeming fellow Christians to hell, even if they have different methods.

 

 

Sorry! :blush: I didn't mean to rehash an old topic. I did do a quick search before I posted, but I didn't find anything that quite answered my questions. Could you guide me to the right threads? Or at least maybe just the right search words? I tried "idol worship" but mostly I got threads that were about teaching Ancient Mythology to little ones. Any suggestions?

[Mrs. Frankweiler]

And though we've cleared it up here at WTM's, where people are more open to understanding, there are still plenty out there and even writing curricula that aren't understanding and don't care to. It's something we all face at times on one thing or another and, yes, homeschooling parents should be aware of what the curricula they buy supports and teaches ;)

 

 

I know, Mommaduck. The problem is finding GOOD curricula that also supports and teaches ones beliefs, whether they be Catholic, Protestant, secular, whatever. I like CLE because it does a great job at teaching the student how to analyze literature. I knew it would come with some challenges as well, but I look at that as opportunity to discuss and clarify our beliefs compared to others. I think if we limit ourselves to only one kind of curriculum (based on religious belief, especially since I am a religious minority in the homeschooling world.) then we are closing the door on a wealth of educational opportunities.

[KatieH]

I had a friend (non denominational protestant) ask me if it was true that Catholics don't believe Jesus resurrected. I said, "Uh...what??" And she said, "Well isn't that why you only show Him dead on the cross, because you don't think He resurrected?" :eek:

 

I think there are still a lot of misconceptions, but for many protestants, I think they do "get" the Catholic viewpoint, and just don't agree with it. Which is fine with me, I'm not a universalist and don't expect others to be.

 

What's CLE, btw? (I'm still relatively new to homeschooling, I don't know what a lot of the acronyms here stand for!)

[mommaduck]

I had a friend (non denominational protestant) ask me if it was true that Catholics don't believe Jesus resurrected. I said, "Uh...what??" And she said, "Well isn't that why you only show Him dead on the cross, because you don't think He resurrected?" :eek:

 

I think there are still a lot of misconceptions, but for many protestants, I think they do "get" the Catholic viewpoint, and just don't agree with it. Which is fine with me, I'm not a universalist and don't expect others to be.

 

What's CLE, btw? (I'm still relatively new to homeschooling, I don't know what a lot of the acronyms here stand for!)

Christian Light Education.

[mommaduck]

I know, Mommaduck. The problem is finding GOOD curricula that also supports and teaches ones beliefs, whether they be Catholic, Protestant, secular, whatever. I like CLE because it does a great job at teaching the student how to analyze literature. I knew it would come with some challenges as well, but I look at that as opportunity to discuss and clarify our beliefs compared to others. I think if we limit ourselves to only one kind of curriculum (based on religious belief, especially since I am a religious minority in the homeschooling world.) then we are closing the door on a wealth of educational opportunities.

No, I'm not suggesting that people limit themselves to just their own faith type of curricula. I'm merely suggesting awareness that there is some curricula that may criticise or outright attack a particular faith in certain subjects. Being aware can help eliminate those, or prepare to deal with the questions and discussion (we've dealt with this also), and still leave plenty of other options open ;)

[dangermom]

I have heard a few people say things like that about Catholics, but honestly almost always it's been on the Internet, discussing something about very conservative Protestants. I have almost never heard anyone say such a thing IRL--though I'm sure there are folks around here who do think so, I guess they aren't people I talk with much. For myself, I rather like fancy Catholic churches and saints' legends and things, and I suppose if I was going to switch (not gonna happen) I'd lean towards the RCC.

 

I agree that it's hard to find really good curriculum that fits you and lines up with your beliefs. We are a much smaller minority denomination, so I never try; we use R&S grammar and some other things, and just deal.

[Pretty in Pink]

I have encountered such sentiments in very conservative, Protestant circles. I once heard a pastor preach an entire sermon on why Catholics weren't Christians!

 

I am interested in what non-Christians have to say on the subject.

[kalanamak]

Sad, but true. Many very fundamentalist baptists taught the same thing.

)

 

My husband was a cradle fundamentalist (he gave it up at about age 49), and his family still is. I've read a few of the books their bookstore sells, and read many monthly newsletters. My take, as a non-religious person who has studied psychology and history, is that Catholics and Jews are easy targets to make "others", so as to rally the troops, and make the followers in this Church not only feel they are better and correct, but under a threat. This is a common thread in history, and, as a friend of mine said: Mankind will not be unified until it is attacked by aliens.

 

I'm sorry that is the way of the world, and we can but endeavor to teach our children to resist this common human foible.

[WTMCassandra]

I am a very conservative Christian, and while I have encountered those opinions about Catholics, I do not share them. While I will always be Protestant, I think, I have a great deal of respect for serious Catholics that have a true relationship with God and Christ. I think Protestants have ignored the thousands of years of traditions at their peril--thrown the baby out with the bathwater. Icons/statues would be no issue for me. I have done personal retreats at Catholic retreat centers and found them to be an aid to worship/contemplation.

[Parrothead]

I had a friend once ask my why we (Catholics) worship the pope. She said her pastor told the (Baptist) congregation that Catholics worship the pope.

 

There is a lot of misinformation out there. I think some people use misinformation as a scare tactic to keep others within their denomination. It is all about the money. I think some people pass along false information because they truly do not know better. There are dozens of reasons for the misinformation to abound.

 

It is something that happens with all religions. One could finish "Oh, those darn_________ !" with any religion/denomination one wanted. Someone will agree with you.

 

 

And it will come up on these forums from time to time. We get new members who, for whatever reason, don't know better. They need to be gently guided to the truth or to a thread that has the truth.

 

No, Catholics do not worship the pope, idols, the saints, the Blessed Virgin Mary...

 

No, the Muslims are not all terrorists.

 

No, the Jews are not responsible for the Crucifixion.

 

No, the Protestants are not all Catholic, Muslim and Jew bashers.

[TravelingChris]

Both dh and I are former Catholics and have been Protestants for the last 24 years. I grew up in a Catholic house where we had some medallions, pictures, etc. but we never prayed to them. On the other hand, my mil was an uneducated Catholic. She did think she was supposed to pray to Saints and she also thought that only Catholics are Christians.

In terms of what we have taught the children, we simply teach that some of the Catholic practices aren't correct and that some of the teachings aren't what we believe. The one we really had to explain was relics which aren't common in the US but are in Europe. It was just such a foreign concept to our kids. BUt they certainly don't consider Catholics not to be Christians and each of them has Catholic friends since our homeschool group and our speech and debate club is open to all Christians.

[Parrothead]

I have encountered such sentiments in very conservative, Protestant circles. I once heard a pastor preach an entire sermon on why Catholics weren't Christians!

 

I am interested in what non-Christians have to say on the subject.

I do believe there was a thread about why Catholics aren't Christians here about a year ago.

 

I suppose it is time to cycle back through the popular subject matter.

[Carol in Cal.]

I am Lutheran, and we have statues in some of our churches, and also (more commonly) beautiful stained glass windows and sometimes pictures. We don't worship them, and we tend not to worship in front of them either.

 

I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood, and my Catholic school-attending friends did pray to and worship some of the saints. I know that it's not the official teaching of Catholicism that they should do so, but it was so common that it must have been taught in their school at least. Maybe that does not happen anymore.

 

My experience is that the Orthodox faiths are clearer and more consistent in their teachings about this than the Catholics. I don't know why that is, but it's a conclusion I reached based on many, many observations. My DD has an Orthodox godmother, and is attending a Catholic high school. I ruled out the use of Catholic schools earlier because of the focus on the saints and on a number of other disputed teachings, and the lack of Biblical teaching, but I'm glad that she is attending a Catholic school at the high school level where social teachings are the religious emphasis--Catholic social teachings tend to be nuanced and in line with mine.

 

Lutherans also have some variation between official and popular teaching, but it's considered unfortunate and cause for concern in a way that it is not in some other denominations.

 

I have never regarded Catholics as non-Christians, but I do think that because there are so many different beliefs and practices taught in Catholicism it is easier than in most other Christian faiths for people to just go through the motions and not really realize that they are not actually Christian.

[vonfirmath]

I have encountered such sentiments in very conservative, Protestant circles. I once heard a pastor preach an entire sermon on why Catholics weren't Christians!

 

I heard a sermon similar to that (why Mother Theresa was not a Christian)

 

But the gist of it was NOT that Mother Theresa was not a Christian but, rather, all the good things you (or she) did do not save you.

 

It could just as easily be "Why vonfirmath is not a Christian" and be the exact same sermon.

 

My mother sat in church for over 30 years, regularly attending and going through all the motions. And was still not a Christian until she realized she needed that personal relationship in her mid-30s and did it.

[KarenNC]

The little boy in the story hears some missionaries talking about the One True God, and so he tries to "test" his family's gods. (blowing out the candle, hiding the little statue under his bed)

 

Depending on the age of the child, this sort of thing is also a good place to talk about the Christian teaching on testing God (Luke 4:12) and whether other religions might believe the same about their Gods--ie that it's not the best idea;). Another option is to get into (again, possibly when your child is older, but I've done it with a 3rd grader) the different Catholic cultures where people do put the statues of the saints, etc to the test and why one wouldn't want to do that because it shows an imperfect understanding of Church teaching. I have a friend who did anthropology fieldwork in Chiapas a few decades ago and she tells stories of the Catholics there who would punish the statues of the saints for not bringing rain, etc when asked (break fingers off the statues, etc).

 

At a break, dd says, "Well, Mom, everyone knows God isn't IN the statue. It's just a statue....like a picture...of someone we love." Then the conversation turned to how it was kind of disrespectful for the dad to throw the statues into the river because it would sort of be like tearing up a picture of someone you love. We talked about it, and the discussion was a great way to introduce respect for other religions etc....

 

Very astute on her part and what sounds like a nice response on your part.

 

I think the whole episode went pretty well, but later in my grown up brain I'm wondering, "Is this what other religions think of Catholics? That we're just a bunch of idol worshipers?"

 

It is absolutely the understanding of the fundamentalist Protestants among whom I grew up, but not among most mainline Christians, I don't think. However, that understanding doesn't stop my very fundamentalist parents, who believe this, from having any number of crosses, Nativity scenes, images of Jesus, etc around.;)

 

This is also a common criticism of modern polytheists and Neopagans (and was of the ancient religions as well). Celsus addressed this in the 2nd century CE:

 

""Let us pass on," says he, "to another point. They cannot tolerate temples, altars, or images. In this they are like the Scythians, the nomadic tribes of Libya, the Seres who worship no god, and some other of the most barbarous and impious nations in the world. That the Persians hold the same notions is shown by Herodotus in these words: 'I know that among the Persians it is considered unlawful to erect images, altars, or temples; but they charge those with folly who do so, because, as I conjecture, they do not, like the Greeks, suppose the gods to be of the nature of men.' Heraclitus also says in one place: 'Persons who address prayers to these images act like those who speak to the walls, without knowing who the gods or the heroes are.' And what wiser lesson have they to teach us than Heraclitus? He certainly plainly enough implies that it is a foolish thing for a man to offer prayers to images, while he knows not who the gods and heroes are. This is the opinion of Heraclitus; but as for them, they go further, and despise without exception all images. If they merely mean that the stone, wood, brass, or gold which has been wrought by this or that workman cannot be a god, they are ridiculous with their wisdom. For who, unless he be utterly childish in his simplicity, can take these for gods, and not for offerings consecrated to the service of the gods, or images representing them?"– Celsus , a 2nd century Greek philosopher (as quoted in Origen, Contra Celsum 7.62). To be clear, Celsus was *not* Christian. His writings exist because Origen, one of the Church Fathers, quoted him extensively in an effort to answer Celsus' criticisms of the Christianity of the time.

(see http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04167.htm scroll down to chapter 62)

 

Basically, Celsus (agreeing with Heraclitus--a Greek philosopher who lived from 535-475 BCE) is saying that, indeed, it is useless to pray to images *if you don't understand what those images represent* because they are representations only. It isn't the images themselves that are divine--only a child or simpleton would believe that they were. The child in the story is, not surprisingly, showing a childish understanding of the family's deity images. Christian children are also apt sometimes to have a rather "idiosyncratic" understanding of their family's traditions, rituals and theology.:001_smile: How many stories have there been of "Harold the angel" from "hark the herald angels sing" or "Our Father, who art in heaven, Howard be thy name," etc? You could use the story to point out that people, especially children, sometimes misunderstand the meanings behind the things they do in religious worship. That's why we go to---whatever you call your religion's religious education program--and study---whatever the sacred texts/traditions/practices/stories/etc of your religion might be--and others do the same in their religions.

 

Unfortunately, it seems that many people are rather quick to assume that anyone of any age who believes or worships differently from them, either in content or form, is indeed a simpleton because of that difference or that they "must be" doing such and such ("worshiping Mary," etc), despite the practitioner's statements to the contrary. CLE sounds like it does this. I like to think I don't fall into the category of simpleton.;)

 

So, to the poster who was interested in a non-Christian take, this is one :). We are Neopagan Unitarian Universalists. My husband wrote a nice post on the topic on his former blog that some might find interesting:

http://executivepagan.wordpress.com/2008/01/04/in-praise-of-idols/

Edited December 18, 2010 by KarenNC

[Catwoman]

"Is this what other religions think of Catholics? That we're just a bunch of idol worshipers?" ... Is this a common belief among non-Catholics? I know in the past there have been these misunderstandings between the different faiths, but I (maybe naively) thought that nowadays people don't really think that, do they?

I do know that there's still some misunderstandings about the Catholics' relationship to Mary, but does a statue of Jesus (or maybe the Holy Family) still cause such a stir for others?

 

I certainly hope that most people don't believe that nonsense, but as I understand it, some churches have played fast and loose with what Catholics believe, and have even implied that Catholics are not "real" Christians, so I'm sure many people have a completely skewed impression. That said, I'm sure there are a lot of Catholics who have mistaken impressions about those who practice other religions.

 

Personally, I don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone else what a "real" Christian is, or that there is only one right faith or religion. The fact is, no one knows for 100% sure what is true, and we won't find out until after we've passed on from this world, so I don't think it's anyone's place to judge anyone else's beliefs.

 

When I meet new people, I am concerned about whether they are kind, decent, and honest; it would never even occur to me to ask them about their religious beliefs, and I find it very odd and disconcerting when they ask about mine before they know anything else about me.

 

Cat

Edited December 18, 2010 by Catwoman

[i.love.lucy]

I guess I don't get the debate. Unless we are talking about respectfulness. At some point you either believe something or you don't. We can't all be right. I believe my faith/denomination to be right according to scripture. So consequently others must be wrong, correct? I don't profess to have some secret knowledge into the heart of God, nor am I an accomplished Biblical scholar. But over my years of study I have come to a set of beliefs. Isn't that what we should all do? And if so, and you (general) have come to your set of beliefs and it differs significantly from mine, then we can be respectful of each other. But ultimately you think I am wrong and I think you are wrong.

 

I guess I am fortunate in that my church (which happens to be Reformed Southern Baptist) spends all it's teaching time on teaching actual scriptural truths, and ZERO time on teaching why everyone else is wrong. So while I may have heard that Catholics are wrong for this or that at some point, I'm certainly not hearing that in my church. Mostly from older people. Does this mean that thought process is dying out?;)

 

It's like racism. It still exists, to be certain, but in my daily life and thoughts it does not. At. all.

[lionfamily1999]

And probably many, many times. As they say on Battlestar Galactica: "All of this has happened before and it will all happen again." Because Battlestar Galactica applies to TWTM forums also.

:001_smile:

And though we've cleared it up here at WTM's, where people are more open to understanding, there are still plenty out there and even writing curricula that aren't understanding and don't care to. It's something we all face at times on one thing or another and, yes, homeschooling parents should be aware of what the curricula they buy supports and teaches ;)

I agree about the curriculum. I guess I just thought bikinis and tried to derail... not very nice of me :blush:

Sorry! :blush: I didn't mean to rehash an old topic. I did do a quick search before I posted, but I didn't find anything that quite answered my questions. Could you guide me to the right threads? Or at least maybe just the right search words? I tried "idol worship" but mostly I got threads that were about teaching Ancient Mythology to little ones. Any suggestions?

I'm not worried about it. I wanted to assure you that these have been gone over here and so many on here now know that Catholics (for instance) do not worship Saints, rather petition them for prayer &tc.

 

:grouphug:

 

That all came out wrong. I get a little defensive, though, when being informed what Baptists believe ;) I'm POSITIVE you completely understand.:D

I do believe there was a thread about why Catholics aren't Christians here about a year ago.

 

I suppose it is time to cycle back through the popular subject matter.

It isn't speedo weather yet :lol:

[Catwoman]

It isn't speedo weather yet :lol:

 

Let's just hope it's not time to start a Speedo thread. :ack2:

 

Cat

[goldberry]

Respectfully, and without at all implying that Catholics are not Christian or not saved, or anything...but only addressing the question about how I view the use of idols.

 

I do believe that the use of idols in worship is not appropriate, and that the manner in which it is done in the Catholic faith is not any different than the manner in which it is done in other non-Christian faiths.

 

To me that is what your son saw the truth of. He recognized that a Hindu using an idol can also say that the idol is just a representation and not the actual God. In the same manner a Catholic (open to correction here!) feels that the idol is not God, and is only a representation and an aid to visualizing.

 

I don't see the behavior as any different. The only difference is that the Bible (which the Hindu is not trying to follow, but the Catholic is) prohibits the use of idols. I believe this applies even when idols are used as just an "aid to visualizing". (See Acts 17:29, Isaiah 40:18, John 4:23,24)

 

So, while not saying in any way that Catholics are not Christian or not saved or not "right", I do view Catholicism as using idols inappropriately. Hopefully I was able to communicate this respectfully!

[mommaduck]

Let's just hope it's not time to start a Speedo thread. :ack2:

 

Cat

ew, ew, ewwwww!!!

[OnTheBrink]

There are genuine and there are phonies in every faith. There are those who really live their beliefs and those who simply go through the motions because it's what they've always done and they've never really looked at it. I find this in every. single. denomination/faith/belief. I've ever encountered.

 

So, I think there are Catholics who are truly saved, and I think there are Catholics who aren't. I think there are Baptists who are truly saved, and Baptists who aren't. I think there are Lutherans, Presbyterians, Orthodox, Charismatic, Pentecostals, Methodists, etc and so forth who are saved, and L, P, O, C, P, M etc and so forth who aren't. What I find is that the main differences tend to be in interpretation.

 

I truly believe that heaven is full of those who are saved by the blood of Christ, who have Christ as their savior, and the label they wear is irrelevant. Sometimes I think when we get there, there's going to be a big assembly and Jesus is going to do a power point for us all entitled, "Here's what you misunderstood..." LOL

 

I prefer to look at individuals, see what they profess and see if they live it over simply lumping all (fill in the blank) as condemned to hell or destined for heaven.

[mcconnellboys]

In my experiences both here and when we lived in predominantly Catholic south Louisiana, there are some people who just don't understand anything that is not part of their familiar world.

 

Once, while in Baton Rouge, I was wearing some jade pieces I own and one of them was a Buddha. A girl in her 20's, a life-long Catholic, was looking at my necklaces and commented that I was wearing a "false idol", LOL....

 

And just recently in a Bible study class someone hear was commenting on Catholics "praying TO" Mary and others, rather than to God.

 

I've also heard many comments over the years about the various things considered "idols". For those who are non-Orthodox, icons may qualify. For those who are non-Catholic, statues may qualify. For some, any sort of image that is allegedly of Jesus, etc. may qualify. For Jehovah's Witnesses, the cross is considered false. It really just varies according to the point of view of folks.

 

I've always taught my children that it would be wrong to ever worship either a man-made or natural "thing", as if it contained the soul of God. Or it would be wrong to worship other "gods" as if there were any such thing. Now, I don't teach them to be disrespectful of religions that do worship many gods; and we do talk about the concept of the trinity or God that is present even within those religions. But we are Christian....

 

I have friends who are atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Jewish, Catholic, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormon, and a variety of Protestant denominations, among others. My husband attended a Catholic high school. My older son attended a Catholic high school and it's looking like my younger son may elect to go to the same school. I think when people have a wider range of folk experiences in their lives, they tend to have a better understanding of what those of other religions really think. When they don't, they may tend to take things they've heard and turn them into something strange and/or scary....

[KarenNC]

I guess I don't get the debate. Unless we are talking about respectfulness. At some point you either believe something or you don't. We can't all be right. I believe my faith/denomination to be right according to scripture. So consequently others must be wrong, correct? I don't profess to have some secret knowledge into the heart of God, nor am I an accomplished Biblical scholar. But over my years of study I have come to a set of beliefs. Isn't that what we should all do? And if so, and you (general) have come to your set of beliefs and it differs significantly from mine, then we can be respectful of each other. But ultimately you think I am wrong and I think you are wrong.

 

It's not about who's right and who's wrong. You are totally correct. I fully believe you are wrong and I am right. Otherwise, I would be following your beliefs (or I'd be nuts). I'm not talking about "all religions are the same deep down," etc. It's about accurate vs. inaccurate information. You may believe Catholics (or others) have a wrong belief about something theologically without claiming that some ritual they use means something other than what they say it means. It's an important distinction.

 

For instance, the vast majority of those who have expressed the belief in my presence (either IRL or online) that Catholics worship idols seem to fall into the very evangelical camp of Christianity as well. As such, they are very dedicated to the Great Commission and winning others to Christ is a large part of their lives. If that is one's goal, then having *accurate* information about what the other person believes and does is important. Otherwise, you are not going to get even a cursory hearing, much less have a meaningful dialogue.

 

If I were to try to convert someone and went up to them saying the equivalent of "You should join my religion because we don't worship statues or practice ritual cannibalism and we don't tie blue ducks to our heads and dance the hornpipe on the church lawn on alternate Tuesdays like yours does" when their religion in fact does none of the above, they'd say, "Mine doesn't either" and think I was nuts. Doesn't matter if I've been told or think that they do. I would still be wrong and have lost any chance of being taken seriously (and possibly of having anyone else claiming affiliation with my group taken seriously in the future).

 

Disclaimer: I have no interest in converting anyone to anything, but I do have an interest in accurate information and a love of comparative theology:). Also, yes, there have been stories from the mission fields about groups (just not usually Protestant Christians;)) who, hearing about the Eucharist or seeing it done without understanding the meaning, believed that Christians practiced ritual cannibalism. The blue ducks were my own idea from some of the ridiculous things Neopagans have been accused of doing.:)

[lionfamily1999]

There are genuine and there are phonies in every faith. There are those who really live their beliefs and those who simply go through the motions because it's what they've always done and they've never really looked at it. I find this in every. single. denomination/faith/belief. I've ever encountered.

 

So, I think there are Catholics who are truly saved, and I think there are Catholics who aren't. I think there are Baptists who are truly saved, and Baptists who aren't. I think there are Lutherans, Presbyterians, Orthodox, Charismatic, Pentecostals, Methodists, etc and so forth who are saved, and L, P, O, C, P, M etc and so forth who aren't. What I find is that the main differences tend to be in interpretation.

 

I truly believe that heaven is full of those who are saved by the blood of Christ, who have Christ as their savior, and the label they wear is irrelevant. Sometimes I think when we get there, there's going to be a big assembly and Jesus is going to do a power point for us all entitled, "Here's what you misunderstood..." LOL

 

I prefer to look at individuals, see what they profess and see if they live it over simply lumping all (fill in the blank) as condemned to hell or destined for heaven.

Well said :hurray:

[Farrar]

Just to respond to the original question, my mother has a story that is exactly what the OP was saying. She grew up in a small southern town and didn't know many Catholics. When she made a friend who was Catholic in elementary school, the first time she went to her house and saw that they had all these little statues of Jesus and Mary and so forth she had a complete freak out thinking they were idol worshippers. Luckily she left without saying anything and her parents explained everything very respectfully so it's now just a funny story about childhood misconceptions. In my mind, it's a very silly misconception, but then again I know that unfortunately some Christians harbor an anti-Catholic sentiment and may be teaching that Catholics worship false idols. Which is sad and untrue, obviously.

[Mrs Mungo]

And probably many, many times. As they say on Battlestar Galactica: "All of this has happened before and it will all happen again." Because Battlestar Galactica applies to TWTM forums also.

 

So wise.

I know, Mommaduck. The problem is finding GOOD curricula that also supports and teaches ones beliefs, whether they be Catholic, Protestant, secular, whatever. I like CLE because it does a great job at teaching the student how to analyze literature. I knew it would come with some challenges as well, but I look at that as opportunity to discuss and clarify our beliefs compared to others. I think if we limit ourselves to only one kind of curriculum (based on religious belief, especially since I am a religious minority in the homeschooling world.) then we are closing the door on a wealth of educational opportunities.

 

I think this is true across the board. A non-Catholic parent might not even pick up on that, but their child may internalize it, file it away and think something bad about Catholics down the road because of it. It is the exact same reason some people get upset over OTHER biases in history books. It is important to talk about so that other people can what will or will not work for them. However, people inevitably get upset that you are bashing their curriculum.

[i.love.lucy]

It's not about who's right and who's wrong. You are totally correct. I fully believe you are wrong and I am right. Otherwise, I would be following your beliefs (or I'd be nuts). I'm not talking about "all religions are the same deep down," etc. It's about accurate vs. inaccurate information. You may believe Catholics (or others) have a wrong belief about something theologically without claiming that some ritual they use means something other than what they say it means. It's an important distinction.

 

For instance, the vast majority of those who have expressed the belief in my presence (either IRL or online) that Catholics worship idols seem to fall into the very evangelical camp of Christianity as well. As such, they are very dedicated to the Great Commission and winning others to Christ is a large part of their lives. If that is one's goal, then having *accurate* information about what the other person believes and does is important. Otherwise, you are not going to get even a cursory hearing, much less have a meaningful dialogue.

 

If I were to try to convert someone and went up to them saying the equivalent of "You should join my religion because we don't worship statues or practice ritual cannibalism and we don't tie blue ducks to our heads and dance the hornpipe on the church lawn on alternate Tuesdays like yours does" when their religion in fact does none of the above, they'd say, "Mine doesn't either" and think I was nuts. Doesn't matter if I've been told or think that they do. I would still be wrong and have lost any chance of being taken seriously (and possibly of having anyone else claiming affiliation with my group taken seriously in the future).

 

Disclaimer: I have no interest in converting anyone to anything, but I do have an interest in accurate information and a love of comparative theology:). Also, yes, there have been stories from the mission fields about groups (just not usually Protestant Christians;)) who, hearing about the Eucharist or seeing it done without understanding the meaning, believed that Christians practiced ritual cannibalism. The blue ducks were my own idea from some of the ridiculous things Neopagans have been accused of doing.:)

Ah, yes. I see what you are saying. Misinformation is definitely out there and many Christians have no idea to whom they are evangelizing when they do it. That's why dh and I do deep comparative theology studies so that we will know what we are talking about. Same is true for anything, really. You had better know about X before you start spouting off about it, no?;)

[Hannah C.]

I grew up Protestant (in a conservative Episcopal church primarily), and I've never thought Catholics worshiped idols. Nor have I ever heard any other Protestants express the belief that Catholics worshiped idols. I have heard other (evangelical) Protestants say that Catholics worship Mary in an idolatrous way, or that they worship the saints in an idolatrous way, but it was never connected with all the statues in a Catholic church!

 

I could see why people would easily think the Orthodox worship idols, however, because of the way icons are used in asking for the intercession of the saints/Mary/Jesus/God. Personally, I've never thought that..

 

Then again -- I went to an Orthodox church for a year and am about to graduate from a Catholic college filled with conservative Catholics. So I am quite well educated about Catholic theology, more so than some cradle Catholics and a lot more so than many evangelical Protestants [at least in my experience].

[Hedgehog]

We are Bible reading, baptism believing, Unitarian, future Kingdom on earth believing Christians; we have no pastor or vicar - only lay preachers; but these are things that I believe in because of the way I understand what I read. Other people think differently, and they also act upon what they believe.

 

My personal opinion is that God is too great to fit into one sort of church. My belief - and earnest prayer - is that every believer is sincere in their faith, and tries to live as Jesus did. I believe that God is more interested in why you chose your church, what motivated you to do this, or that, than the rightness or otherwise of the choice itself. If that leads you in a different direction to me, that's ok. It's so easy to judge based on a little information - and so wrong, IMO. I don't think we're given the job of judging anyone, and it's a very good thing because I'm sure I would be very bad at it. Thankfully the one who will judge us knows all things; he is merciful, and his judgement is just.

[elizabeth]

I absolutely enjoyed reading this book on the subject after having been treated like a leper by the other hsers in our city. They do the same to the LDS moms and the Jehovah Witness' are certainly on their do not associate list. I never knew why as I always attended Catholic schools so I had no idea what other religious institutions were "teaching" about Catholicism. Having been sheltered by attending only Catholic school this hsing gig took my breath away... It was breathtaking to discover . This board is, in my humble opinion, an exception to the religious ignorance and bigotry that pervades the hsing community. That said you will find that being a classical hser will put you totally outer limits without the whole Catholic thing to boot. As a Catholic gal married to a Jewish male I have heard a thing or two that would make your hair stand on end in shock.

http://books.google.com/books?id=p5SW0l7ciokC&dq

That said I really do think this particular group is not representative of hsers in general in terms of the depth and breadth of their religious knowledge. Essentially, you do not even want to know what is being said and "taught" about your faith especially in the oblique fashion that is in vogue.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

To answer the OP-yes, there are plenty of religions that feel that way about the Catholic and Orthodox churches and to a lesser extent about the Anglican/Episcopal and some Lutheran churches. As my evidence I will simply state that countries where these are the predominant religions are full of missionaries (mostly Americans) of various denominations trying not just to convert them to Christianity (especially since they are already Christian) but trying to convert them to the "correct" version. There may be many individuals that do not agree with these assumptions but it still appears to be the official stance.

 

I absolutely enjoyed reading this book on the subject after having been treated like a leper by the other hsers in our city. They do the same to the LDS moms and the Jehovah Witness' are certainly on their do not associate list. I never knew why as I always attended Catholic schools so I had no idea what other religious institutions were "teaching" about Catholicism. Having been sheltered by attending only Catholic school this hsing gig took my breath away... It was breathtaking to discover . This board is, in my humble opinion, an exception to the religious ignorance and bigotry that pervades the hsing community. That said you will find that being a classical hser will put you totally outer limits without the whole Catholic thing to boot. As a Catholic gal married to a Jewish male I have heard a thing or two that would make your hair stand on end in shock.

http://books.google.com/books?id=p5SW0l7ciokC&dq

That said I really do think this particular group is not representative of hsers in general in terms of the depth and breadth of their religious knowledge. Essentially, you do not even want to know what is being said and "taught" about your faith especially in the oblique fashion that is in vogue.

 

This is not true nor is it the sum of my experience as a homeschooler. Yes, there are some who take their religious stance to the point of intolerance but there are many who do not. Nor is this board always an oasis of acceptance of various viewpoints-religious or otherwise. The homeschool curriculum market is full of items from a particular religious viewpoint because that is the viewpoint of the authors and of the majority of the market. However, the more we promote homeschooling as an intolerant bigoted community the greater the likely hood that homeschooling will be legislated against as being socially unacceptable in the US. Certainly it would be fanning the flames already there in many other countries.

 

While I enjoy and am educated by the diversity on this board I think that the last thing homeschoolers need to do is allow this diversity to tear apart their common goal of homeschooling. If, as a community, we focus on intolerance and bigotry we will eventually bring about our own destruction.

 

 

I truly believe that heaven is full of those who are saved by the blood of Christ, who have Christ as their savior, and the label they wear is irrelevant. Sometimes I think when we get there, there's going to be a big assembly and Jesus is going to do a power point for us all entitled, "Here's what you misunderstood..." LOL

 

 

 

May I just add--there may be a lecture but in Heaven there will be NO Power Point. ;)

[brehon]

Sometimes I think when we get there, there's going to be a big assembly and Jesus is going to do a power point for us all entitled, "Here's what you misunderstood..." LOL

 

Oh, dear heavens, please no! No Power Point! I think PP is the missing circle of hell and am surrounded by colleagues who *adore* using it. UGH!

[pqr]

This board is, in my humble opinion, an exception to the religious ignorance and bigotry that pervades the hsing community.

 

What???? This mimics the uninformed drivel that I hear from the NEA and other anti-HS groups.

 

You are taking the exception and making it the rule and I know of no place where this is an accepted form of argument. One cannot make a general case based on the exception.

 

Yes we have some nuts in the HS community, but they are very much the minority, and to attempt to paint the entire community based on your world perspective is not only wrong but damaging. If your view became the accepted view then we would be shut down. This brings to mind the line, "With friends like these, who needs enemies?"

 

What shocks me is that few seem to be outraged by this indictment? Do people actually agree that “religious ignorance and bigotry … pervades the hsing community� PERVADES, not exists but PERVADES

[OnTheBrink]

 

...snip...

 

This is not true nor is it the sum of my experience as a homeschooler. Yes, there are some who take their religious stance to the point of intolerance but there are many who do not. Nor is this board always an oasis of acceptance of various viewpoints-religious or otherwise. The homeschool curriculum market is full of items from a particular religious viewpoint because that is the viewpoint of the authors and of the majority of the market. However, the more we promote homeschooling as an intolerant bigoted community the greater the likely hood that homeschooling will be legislated against as being socially unacceptable in the US. Certainly it would be fanning the flames already there in many other countries.

 

...snip...

 

 

 

May I just add--there may be a lecture but in Heaven there will be NO Power Point. ;)

 

I agree with the first paragraph.

 

As for the last line, how silly of me! *slapping forehead* I meant, Jesus will give a Keynote lecture. ;)

[Barry Goldwater]

This board is, in my humble opinion, an exception to the religious ignorance and bigotry that pervades the hsing community.

 

Vicious defamation. Shame on you.

 

Why not say, "you people aren't half as bigoted as all the other people I know."

 

Miserable...

[mommaduck]

What???? This mimics the uninformed drivel that I hear from the NEA and other anti-HS groups.

 

You are taking the exception and making it the rule and I know of no place where this is an accepted form of argument. One cannot make a general case based on the exception.

 

Yes we have some nuts in the HS community, but they are very much the minority, and to attempt to paint the entire community based on your world perspective is not only wrong but damaging. If your view became the accepted view then we would be shut down. This brings to mind the line, "With friends like these, who needs enemies?"

 

What shocks me is that few seem to be outraged by this indictment? Do people actually agree that “religious ignorance and bigotry … pervades the hsing community� PERVADES, not exists but PERVADES

It may depend on WHERE she lives and may be speaking only from *her* experience. There are some areas where the only homeschooling group would be an evangelical protestant one where you have to sign a SOF which intentionally excludes anyone outside of the mainstream/conservative evangelical protestant sphere (aka no LDS, no Catholics, no JW's, no Unitarians or Universalists, etc allowed). I've lived in one of those areas.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I agree with the first paragraph.

 

As for the last line, how silly of me! *slapping forehead* I meant, Jesus will give a Keynote lecture. ;)

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

Jesus may make (and I hope that I may look forward to) any presentation he so chooses. If it is Heaven there will be no Power Point-if Dante had current technology he would have added another circle.

[pqr]

It may depend on WHERE she lives and may be speaking only from *her* experience. There are some areas where the only homeschooling group would be an evangelical protestant one where you have to sign a SOF which intentionally excludes anyone outside of the mainstream/conservative evangelical protestant sphere (aka no LDS, no Catholics, no JW's, no Unitarians or Universalists, etc allowed). I've lived in one of those areas.

If that were the case then the outrageous broad brush attack on the entire hsing community should have been prefaced with something like "in my limited regional experience." Further, nothing changes the fact that the comment reinforced every negative stereotype that one hears about HSing. As a community we need to loudly and repeatedly disavow such claims as they are; untrue, damaging to the HS movement and stereotypical.

There is a thread about how to deal with family members who make such claims, that one of our own would do so is shocking.

I am all for commenting on specific groups there are, according to some posters, supremacist HS groups and we should disavow them, but the comment was against the entire HS community.

[mommaduck]

If that were the case then the outrageous broad brush attack on the entire hsing community should have been prefaced with something like "in my limited regional experience." Further, nothing changes the fact that the comment reinforced every negative stereotype that one hears about HSing. As a community we need to loudly and repeatedly disavow such claims as they are; untrue, damaging to the HS movement and stereotypical.

 

There is a thread about how to deal with family members who make such claims, that one of our own would do so is shocking.

 

I am all for commenting on specific groups there are, according to some posters, supremacist HS groups and we should disavow them, but the comment was against the entire HS community.

 

Totally agree ;)

[justamouse]

Geez, elizabeth, you had to go and say something nice and look what you got.

[justamouse]

I have encountered such sentiments in very conservative, Protestant circles. I once heard a pastor preach an entire sermon on why Catholics weren't Christians!

 

I am interested in what non-Christians have to say on the subject.

 

ohh yeah, I still hear people talking like that. All to much, frankly. And among the same groups.