Revisiting Math... Algebra I and beyond.

[LisaKinVA]

Up until yesterday, I had planned to use Chalkdust and LoF with my oldest son. I know those programs are "solid." I'm comfortable with them. After some back and forth with some people on the accelerated learner board, people who know the various math programs gave me some feedback, and I went back to revisit some selections, and suggestions.

 

I don't want TT. My son is "good" at Math, shows interest in technical/technological fields, and at this point he needs something a bit "more."

 

The Dolciani Pre-Algbera course was a nightmare. Neither of us liked the text, examples, explanations... we hated it. So, at this point the Doliciani Algebra I is going to be a very hard sale.

 

Foerester's was mentioned as a possibility. There are some videos that can be purchased to "enhance" the text (Math without Borders), which I feel will be helpful. It sounds like it might have some humor, I like the textbook + video assist format, and it sounds like it might be a bit "deeper" than some other texts out there.

 

I also stumbled across something relatively new, called Kinetic Textbooks. Unlike the other options I've really considered, which all have textbooks, it's a computer-based program and a $49 for 12 month subscription. A couple of reviews praise it fairly highly -- and of course, my son thought it looked fun. In the scheme of things $50 for 12 months is pretty cheap for a math course, although I don't have anything I could "keep." The program tracks all of the problems, grades... very, very nice on that end. Very independent, but no tutoring/extra help (which is one thing I like about Chalkdust... an outside person we could go to if we get stumped).

 

Lial's I've heard has wonderful explanations, but can be quite hefty (my son does better with short & sweet...) I probably wouldn't mind having a copy on my shelf just to have different explanations available, but not so sure about something that has been described as a more "incremental" approach, with a student having to do a lot of review, etc. at the end of a chapter.

 

Jacob's I have also heard uses some humor, cartoons and gets to some of the Why's in math (which, I think my son may like). But that "incremental approach" rears it's ugly head (we had an awful early experience with this approach with this boy, and I don't want to repeat that. There are the Ask Dr. Callahan videos, etc. -- and it too receives high marks.

 

I don't mind my son thinking math is "fun" (but, he thinks anything new or different is fun... until it's not "new" anymore :glare:). I DO want math to be solid, rigorous, not something I'm willing to skimp on at these levels. Pretty much all of my choices (other than Kinetic) is going to have a lot more work for me to check and review work... so I need a good TM with full solutions. I have other kids, and I just don't have an extra hour or two to go through everything step-by-step with my son, to make sure he's doing it right... but an answer key, or answers to simply odd problems is not going to cut it. *I* want clear examples -- which are tied to the problems being worked, not just one simple example, followed by problems that jump 2-3 levels without much basic practice, good instruction, good review (like cumulative review, chapter tests, quizzes, and enough problem selections to go back for extra practice, if needed). Additional Challenge problems would be nice, but not completely necessary. I can always keep a copy of AoPS, and we have LoF already on-hand.

 

I am more worried about this decision for my oldest child. My two younger children seem to flourish regardless of the program... they seem to be a bit more adaptable. Re-using is a nice feature, but it doesn't have to be mandatory. Cost isn't a huge consideration, either (I was planning on purchasing both AoPS and Chalkdust next year for my ds).

 

We also purchased Descartes Cove for the kids' to play (Family Gift)... so there is plenty of math around. :lol:

 

So, here I am... asking for input, and praying for assistance and clear direction from those of you who may have been through this, or know more about these math programs than I can find out.

 

Thank you so much.

[TheApprentice]

My 12ds is currently using Kinetic Books Pre-algebra program. This program is very thorough. There is enough practice without it being "too much", and the end of unit reviews is the time I make him write and show his work. I have 2 slight beefs about the program: no solutions to the problems are given, just the answers; and, the answers are given for just the odd problems. That makes it difficult to see where your child actually made his/her error. One way to get around that is to join Mathway: Math Problem Solver, which for a years subscription, you plug in the math question, and it will run through the problem. If I don't continue with Kinetic Books, my next choice will be Lial's. And while it looks long, it is meant as a block curriculum, basically meaning that each lesson is 2 days worth. I agree, the decision can be a bit difficult. Good Luck.:001_smile:

[Gratia271]

We have used Foerster, and my daughter enjoyed it. Its most outstanding feature for me are the real world problems which require application of the material studied. I don't have a point of comparison, as I have only used this curriculum.

[LisaKinVA]

I have 2 slight beefs about the program: no solutions to the problems are given, just the answers; and, the answers are given for just the odd problems. That makes it difficult to see where your child actually made his/her error.

 

Other than the Math Problem Solver, any thoughts on possibly purchasing the Foerester's & DVD's anyway (with the Solutions Guide, I believe is also available), and then he could to the written problems from something like Foerester's? Or, I already have the whole LoF series, maybe he could do a corresponding section from that book instead.

 

I really like having a textbook/solutions available... I guess that's my biggest beef with the Kinetic program then. $50 bucks for a year of Algebra I is a drop in the bucket, compared to so many other programs out there.

[EKS]

Jacobs does not use an incremental approach.

[Corraleno]

IMO the explanations in Foerster's are much better. The problems in Kinetic Books are certainly more challenging than TT, but in some cases I found the explanations to be even "lighter" than TT. For example, TT gives a brief explanation of why moving the decimal point in both numbers works when the divisor is a decimal (a few sentences comparing it to equivalent fractions). Kinetic Books just says to move the decimal an equal number of places in both numbers, and that's it. That's the only example I can remember off the top of my head, but I did a comparison several months ago, and I remember noticing a number of similar things. KB has some fun games, and it can be done completely independently, but if you want more conceptual explanations, I would go with Foerster's & the Math Without Borders DVDs. I own both KB and Foerster's (and Lial, Jacobs, Larson, and several others :tongue_smilie:) and Foerster's would be my pick for a student who can handle it; the word problems are quite meaty and he introduces quadratics early than most texts, but I think the explanations are superb. I think Lial would be my second choice.

 

Jackie

[TheApprentice]

Having a text/teacher manual is one of the reasons we are considering switching curriculum for Algebra. It would be easier to reference/review material. I truly like the independent nature of Kinetic Books, and if your son is very mathy and doesn't want to be "taught" much, which is the case as my son gets older (and I'm trying to groom an independent learner;)), that is why I am still considering KB for next year. It's working now, I don't know if KB would work though as the math got more difficult.

[swimmermom3]

After three years of using Saxon with my youngest we moved to Foerster Algebra 1 this year. My son was hesitant to make the move because he actually liked Saxon. Now, I don't think I could pay him to go back. He continues to insist on self-teaching but finds that Foerster requires more "math discussion" from both of us. The best part is that I am more comfortable with Foerster and feel more confident as a math teacher. It's a win-win situation for us.

 

Good luck with your decision. I really wanted to be able to do Dolciani because I read numerous glowing reviews of it from posters whose opinions I respect; however, Foerster is such a good fit here that I have no regrets at this point.

[AngieW in Texas]

My oldest used Jacobs for Algebra I and Geometry, Kinetic Books for Algebra II, and Larson's for Precalculus.

 

I liked Jacobs just fine for Algebra I, but I tried the free download of Kinetic Books Algebra I (available right after it was first released). My middle dd did both Jacobs and KB for Algebra for 7th grade and then dropped Jacobs and just finished KB for 8th grade. She did Jacobs for Geometry and is using KB for Algebra II right now.

 

I didn't care for Larson's Precalculus (and we didn't care for the videos either), so I'm going to use Lial's for my dd next year.

 

I'd love to have my youngest in Kinetic Books (KB), but she really doesn't want to do a computer-based program for math. I tried Lial's BCM for her, but it was way too visually cluttered. MUS Prealgebra is working for her this year. I'll probably use Algebra I: A Fresh Approach for her next year along with the systematic review pages from MUS Algebra I. I don't think she'd do well with Jacobs.

Edited December 17, 2010 by AngieW in Texas

[LisaKinVA]

Thank you all so much for the comments (I'll be continuing to check the thread). I'm sure you all know how you feel when you've had your plans... and then think you may need to "chuck them." I've been so wedded to Chalkdust for upper levels, I just had trouble seeing anything else.

 

I spent awhile talking to my son about CD (we have Basic Math, which he did a couple of summers ago). As good as Mosley is, my son felt like he "talked too much."

 

I think we are going to try a mixture of KB and Foerster's with the Math w/o Borders DVDs. This child seems to do pretty well with a mixture of inputs, and I can let him do the KB for practice on the computer (he can't really cheat his way through that), and use Foerster's for the added depth of explanation, the "pencil/paper" work, and meaty word problems. I may purchase AoPS, just to have it on my shelf, and I still have FRED :D

 

Hopefully, this will cover any & all bases, and give us plenty of room to grow. He has passed the "placement tests" for Algebra I for AoPS, so I'm pretty certain he can handle what we've got coming ;-). The KB will make him happy, and the Foerster's will act as my "security blanket." LOL Fred we may use as intro, extra practice or "weekend math." AoPS is just because he's never seen anything like it -- and who knows he could really take to something like that (my younger DD and my younger DS will most likely LOVE it, so not a waste of money).

 

GEOMETRY -- this will be my next "big" thing... guess I'll have to be looking at that during conventions this year (Jacobs vs. the program used by the Math w/o Borders people, is most likely what I'll be focusing on)

 

Thank you all so much... I feel much better about all of this. I feel like I'll have lots of good resources on-hand, but we'll focus our time in Foerster's and KB :D

[Sunshine State Sue]

We used Foerster's Algebra 1 last year. Here is my review:

 

We used Foerster’s Algebra in 8th grade after completing MUS Algebra (easy) and LoF Algebra (challenging). With 20/20 hindsight, I wish I had done something different for 7th grade, perhaps MUS Algebra and Patty Paper Geometry. I was able to obtain the 1999 student book and 1999 teacher book used. I purchased the solutions manual new through Prentice Hall.

 

Pros:

• Clear, easy to understand explanations

• Explicit, step-by-step working through problems

• Sufficient practice and continual review of concepts

• Clear building upon and relationships between concepts

• Explicit demonstration of how to apply concepts to word problems

• Challenging, real-life word problems

• Solutions manual provides worked out solutions for every problem

• Solid preparation for SAT, sciences, college level math

• Amusing names in many word problems: Moe Delaune, Mary Thon, Fran Tick, etc.

• Math Without Borders DVDs available

 

Cons:

• None

 

 

Here is an example from Foerster’s Chapter 6 on the Quadratic Formula:

In Foerster's Chapter 6 they teach the quadratic formula. That's

x = [-b +- sqrt(b2-4ac)]/2a

(not easy to type here)

Within this chapter, they teach the vertical motion formula: d = rt - 5t(squared)

They have a section with 12 problems. The TM says to take 2 days to do these problems, but only do 3 problems a day. Here is the first one:

Football problem - A football is kicked into the air with an initial upward velocity of 25 meters per second (m/sec).

a. Calculate it's height after 2 seconds; 3 seconds

b. When will it be 20 meters above the ground?

c. Copy the diagram. Show the answers to part (a) in relationship to the 20 meters of part (b).

d. When will the ball hit the ground?

 

 

FWIW - I have a degree in math and ds is math-oriented.

[swimmermom3]

We used Foerster's Algebra 1 last year. Here is my review:

 

We used Foerster’s Algebra in 8th grade after completing MUS Algebra (easy) and LoF Algebra (challenging). With 20/20 hindsight, I wish I had done something different for 7th grade, perhaps MUS Algebra and Patty Paper Geometry. I was able to obtain the 1999 student book and 1999 teacher book used. I purchased the solutions manual new through Prentice Hall.

 

Pros:

• Clear, easy to understand explanations

• Explicit, step-by-step working through problems

• Sufficient practice and continual review of concepts

• Clear building upon and relationships between concepts

• Explicit demonstration of how to apply concepts to word problems

• Challenging, real-life word problems

• Solutions manual provides worked out solutions for every problem

• Solid preparation for SAT, sciences, college level math

• Amusing names in many word problems: Moe Delaune, Mary Thon, Fran Tick, etc.

• Math Without Borders DVDs available

 

Cons:

• None

 

 

Here is an example from Foerster’s Chapter 6 on the Quadratic Formula:

In Foerster's Chapter 6 they teach the quadratic formula. That's

x = [-b +- sqrt(b2-4ac)]/2a

(not easy to type here)

Within this chapter, they teach the vertical motion formula: d = rt - 5t(squared)

They have a section with 12 problems. The TM says to take 2 days to do these problems, but only do 3 problems a day. Here is the first one:

Football problem - A football is kicked into the air with an initial upward velocity of 25 meters per second (m/sec).

a. Calculate it's height after 2 seconds; 3 seconds

b. When will it be 20 meters above the ground?

c. Copy the diagram. Show the answers to part (a) in relationship to the 20 meters of part (b).

d. When will the ball hit the ground?

 

 

FWIW - I have a degree in math and ds is math-oriented.

 

Sue, you, 8Filltheheart, and Rebecca in VA were instrumental in getting me to look at Foerster. It "feels" right here, like MCT does for LA. How is that for a rational reason for recommending a curriculum?:tongue_smilie: I am actually enjoying working through the book on my own which is way more than I could ever say for Saxon and even Harold Jacob.

[cathiemom6]

I see your old post saying you were going to use Foersters with dvd's. Were you happy with it? I'm trying to decide between Foersters Alg 2/trig and chicago math. I've used Saxon through Alg. 1/2 and the TT for Alg. 1, 2, Geom. I don't think my 13yoson is really ready to move on so I'd like to repeat Alg. 2 with a more rigorous program to be sure he's solid. I have plenty of time so I've been considering Chicago since it has Adv. Alg, FST, PDM, and then Calc. so I could fill 4 years of math. Foerster would have only Alg 2 Trig and then I'd have to go into Calc with something else, right?

Since Calc would probably be at a cc i'm fine with that

 

Anyway, I'd love to hear what you thought of Foersters.

Thanks!

cathie

[Trish]

I've been researching pre-algebra and algebra options. This week I'm leaning toward Thinkwell. Also, it's on sale at HSBC this month.

[justasque]

We found Foerester's to be dull.

We liked Jacob's, especially for a younger kid who is dabbling in Algebra, but you probably want something with more exercises.

 

I can't say enough good things about McDougal Littell's Algebra I by Larson et. al.

1. If you use the second-most-recent edition, it's cheap.

2. If you get the Easy Planner software, often available used, it has a HUGE amount of support materials.

3. Even without the software, I like this book.

4. There is a complete worked-out solutions manual. Honestly, at this point, my students check their work themselves.

5. Good examples, clearly laid out.

6. Lots of exercises, plus the teacher's manual has suggested "homework" problem sets at three levels (basic, average, and advanced)

7. Very important to me - they do not introduce concepts until the student has the background to understand WHY. This is an excellent series (there are other books) for kids who will be going on to careers that require math, such as engineering.

8. The teacher's manual is excellent. It is wrap-around style, with answers to the problems (though not worked-out solutions - you need either the solutions manual or the software for that), extra examples, "tips for new teachers", pacing suggestions for various kinds of courses, and so on.

9. The book has an excellent review section after each chapter.

10. There are mid-chapter quizzes to check understanding (in the student book) and the teacher book has daily mini-quizzes. There is also a regular chapter test and IIRC a standardized-test-style test for each chapter in the student book. The software has tons more assessment options, including tests at the basic, average, and advanced level for each chapter.

11. There is a workbook (overkill if you have the text). I assume it's mainly for school which don't let kids take the text home. I sometimes print the workbook pages from the software for a change, or for a student who is traveling and doesn't want to take the text. There are worksheets for each section, in basic, average, and advanced levels. Typically, the advanced levels do the problems with more complex numbers (fractions and decimals, compared to whole numbers for the basic level).

 

They do have another book which is similarly titled, and at a lower level. The one I like is here:

http://www.amazon.com/McDougal-Littell-Algebra-Applications-Equations/dp/0395937760/ref=pd_sim_b_1

(There are also various state-specific editions. These are exactly the same as the regular edition except they have extra pages with practice for the state standardized tests. They are quite often cheaper, and usually have a different ISBN.)

[MtnTeaching]

Up until yesterday, I had planned to use Chalkdust and LoF with my oldest son. I know those programs are "solid." I'm comfortable with them. After some back and forth with some people on the accelerated learner board, people who know the various math programs gave me some feedback, and I went back to revisit some selections, and suggestions.

 

I am curious as to what the back and forth was on the accelerated learner board. My son is using the Chalk Dust Algebra 1 series right now and seems to be doing fine. (I wouldn't say it's fun, but he seems to do well with it.) I had him evaluated a few weeks ago by a Denver math teacher and he said ds was solid and should probably be moving faster.)

 

I don't want to second guess myself on this one, we used Basic Math and Pre-algebra also. I was trying to stay with a program for continuity. I do definitely value the knowledge on this board, though, and would like to know if you heard any negative comments on this program. I do want to cover all the bases and I supplement with Lial's Algebra and math reading from various sources.

 

Thank you!