S/O Low expectations: why I have 'dumbed down' certain classes

[Stacy in NJ]

us regular folks need to stick together. There are more of us (statistically this has to be true). :D

 

 

I think I've finally decided my average kids and obviously substandard expectations don't belong here.

I wish everyone success in their homeschooling endeavors and thanks to those of you who have been supportive and given great advice.

[AnitaMcC]

Sorry for rambling...

 

I think I've finally decided my average kids and obviously substandard expectations don't belong here.

 

I wish everyone success in their homeschooling endeavors and thanks to those of you who have been supportive and given great advice.

 

 

I am sorry you are leaving us Robin!!!! :sad:

 

I don't understand why anyone needs to bash anyone. We all are doing the best we can with our kids.

 

My kids are not average kids... and they are not doing well being above average!!!!

 

Ds who is border line genius.. just isn't doing what he is capable of and I have no idea what or how to do anything to help him. My trying to push the academics on him isn't working, but he also isn't happy not being challenged. So I am :banghead::banghead: with him all the time. We just can't seem to find the balance for him.

 

Dd is very talented (music and martial arts), is average in academics. She reaches much farther for her goals than her brother. She wants to do so much and she has to limit what she does. Her academics are where she has limits. She does not want or need to do AP courses, she does not need or want to do precalculus. She does not need or want to do chemistry, biology, physics, etc at high levels. She does not need or want to read 15 classic novels every year. She would rather not read any -LOL.

 

So we let her limit... she only has to read 10 novels a year and only 5 of them are classics. And she can read the "kid" versions of them if that is what she wants. We don't do intense literary discussions and analysis. We don't do indepth science curriculum. She does what is best for her.

[Rosie_0801]

Should I repost this from earlier?

 

Maybe rigorous means the top end of realistic? Maybe "low expectations" means the bottom end of realistic?

 

 

Semantics seems to be the main cause of tension in these threads...

 

Rosie

 

 

If the top end of realistic at your place is Calculus and reading the Illiad, I would be surprised if anyone thought allowing Junior to drop maths after Algebra 1 and counting Roald Dahl as literature was ok. There might be good reasons why you don't oblige Junior to do Calculus or read the Illiad, even though they realistically could, but there wouldn't be good reasons why "The Twits" would acceptably count as literature. If Junior wants to go into psychology, is anyone going to think taking statistics instead of calculus is dumbing things down? I doubt it.

 

REALISTIC is a RELATIVE TERM and is not calculated solely on academic ability. Not even Uber-geniuses can operate at their academic maximum in every sphere of life because there isn't enough time in the day and they still have to take time out to sleep, eat and contemplate their navels.

 

Geez. If we know we have our kids working in the upper levels of realistic, we needn't get our knickers in a twist because someone else's realistic is at a higher level. How about we address the reasons why we, personally, aren't robust enough to handle that and take a bit of responsibility.

 

I may not feel so good hearing about people's 2 year olds have started reading when my 3 1/2 year old can't speak in full sentences yet, but are those people saying anything offensive? No they aren't, if I'm bothered by their anecdotes, I'm the one with the problem, not them; unless they actually come and and say "Rosie, you and your kid are utter losers. Bug off outta this forum because you don't belong here." Of course, if anyone other than SWB did, I'd say "Where are your manners? Suck it up Princess, I'm here to stay!" :tongue_smilie:

 

It'd be awful if anyone created an Us v Them situation here based on IQ, huh? There aren't so many differences really. Probably all of us would like our kids to be working a smidge harder than they want to.

 

Rosie

Edited December 19, 2010 by Rosie_0801

[8filltheheart]

I find this thread rather amusing. I have kids that are pretty darn bright and are beyond me intellectually and I have kids that are most definitely just plain ol' normal. Honestly, I am just not that responsible for where they are one way or the other. They are who they are. It isn't as if nurture thwarts nature. Nurture nurtures nature, but mostly......they are who they are.

 

Shouldn't the goal of ANY education be to help each individual achieve what is appropriate for their abilities? It is absolutely pointless to expect work levels far beyond a child's abilities. It is equally counter-productive to force an advanced kid to work below their abilities.

 

I can't imagine allowing what other people are achieving or aren't achieving as a personal indicator in what is going on in my home. Heck......you can't even compare the education of one of my own kids to one of their own siblings. Their educations don't look very similar at all b/c every single grade level is completely tailor made for that individual child.

 

I don't even let my kids compare themselves to each other. My jr isn't permitted to "feel threatened" by the fact that her 14 yo brother surpassed her in math ability about 2 yrs ago. His math abilities do not reflect on her at all. They reflect on him. Just as he isn't permitted to "feel dumb" b/c his sister reads about 4-5 books to his one b/c he is an incredibly slow reader. Her reading abilities are hers......not his.

 

Goodness, every single person in this world has struggles to overcome. Rejoice in others accomplishments and be confident in our own achievements.

Edited December 20, 2010 by 8FillTheHeart

[Robin in DFW]

nt

Edited December 20, 2010 by Robin in DFW

[justamouse]

I find this thread rather amusing. I have kids that are pretty darn bright and are beyond me intellectually and I have kids that are most definitely just plain ol' normal. Honestly, I am just not that responsible for where they are one way or the other. They are who they are. It isn't as if nurture thwarts nature. Nurture nurtures nature, but mostly......they are who they are.

 

Shouldn't the goal of ANY education be to help each individual achieve what is appropriate for their abilities? It is absolutely pointless to expect work levels far beyond a child's abilities. It is equally counter-productive to force an advanced kid to work below their abilities.

 

I can't imagine allowing what other people are achieving or aren't achieving as a personal indicator in what is going on in my home. Heck......you can't even compare the education of one of my own kids to one of their own siblings. Their educations don't look very similar at all b/c every single grade level is completely tailor made for that individual child.

 

I don't even let my kids compare themselves to each other. My jr isn't permitted to "feel threatened" by the fact that her 14 yo brother surpassed her in math ability about 2 yrs ago. His math abilities do not reflect on her at all. They reflect on him. Just as he isn't permitted to "feel dumb" b/c his sister reads about 4-5 books to his one b/c he is an incredibly slow reader. Her reading abilities are hers......not his.

 

Goodness, every single person in this world has struggles to overcome. Rejoice in others accomplishments and be confident in our own achievements.

 

 

this is so true--so much wisdom here

[Grace is Sufficient]

I really did NOT intend to re-open, or take a side on the recurring debate about 'rigor.'

 

I DID intend to share some of my personal situation and give reasons why in certain cases, I specifically chose courses that were 'below' my kids level.

 

That's why I used the term 'dumbed down.' My son got a 35 on the ACT English portion. (Noticeably better than he did in math/science, nonetheless, he wants to go into computers.) Therefore, he's certainly capable of doing a really rigorous, challenging English course this year. But he's got too much else on his plate, and I wanted him to focus on Calculus, Electronics, and Computer Networking, so he has the easiest English I could find. He probably spends about 10-15 minutes on it most days.

 

I allowed my daughter (very bright, but not a hard worker) as I said before, to use the Famous Men books for a class because she loves it. I was pleasantly surprised at the result. She did not work hard enough for it to be high school level by most people's considerations, and the text is not high school level, but to this day, she knows more about Greeks and Romans than most people. I found it interesting that a book with much less information was retained so well -- partly because it wasn't an overload of info, and partly because it was done more in the 'delight-directed' style of education.

 

I shared these because I thought it was interesting to consider, as home educators, the whys and whens of choosing courses that are less challenging. Please don't judge each other's educational methods; please don't be quick to feel judged. God gave us the kids we're supposed to raise. He trusts us with them; we can trust ourselves and each other with them, too.

 

Debbie

[LisaKinVA]

average, regular kids...a spin-off of the "other thread" about expectations.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't think that... I just thought it was a thread about not making *every* class at a "rigorous" level... no matter if the child was "gifted" or "average."

 

I know there are people who try to make sure that *every* class their child takes is pretty challenging (for that child, whatever the actual level might be) and I am not in that camp.

 

My kids are on the upper end of the bell curve, and even though my 7.5 yo is "capable" of more difficult levels across the curriculum, I pick and choose how much to "stretch" him, and in which subjects.

 

Sorry... didn't mean to hijack

[Storm Bay]

 

Geez. If we know we have our kids working in the upper levels of realistic, we needn't get our knickers in a twist because someone else's realistic is at a higher level. How about we address the reasons why we, personally, aren't robust enough to handle that and take a bit of responsibility.

 

It'd be awful if anyone created an Us v Them situation here based on IQ, huh? There aren't so many differences really. Probably all of us would like our kids to be working a smidge harder than they want to.

 

Rosie

:iagree::iagree::iagree:!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I find this thread rather amusing. I have kids that are pretty darn bright and are beyond me intellectually and I have kids that are most definitely just plain ol' normal. Honestly, I am just not that responsible for where they are one way or the other. They are who they are. It isn't as if nurture thwarts nature. Nurture nurtures nature, but mostly......they are who they are.

 

Goodness, every single person in this world has struggles to overcome. Rejoice in others accomplishments and be confident in our own achievements.

 

 

Well said, all of it, and so true.

I allowed my daughter (very bright, but not a hard worker) as I said before, to use the Famous Men books for a class because she loves it. I was pleasantly surprised at the result. She did not work hard enough for it to be high school level by most people's considerations, and the text is not high school level, but to this day, she knows more about Greeks and Romans than most people. I found it interesting that a book with much less information was retained so well -- partly because it wasn't an overload of info, and partly because it was done more in the 'delight-directed' style of education.

 

I shared these because I thought it was interesting to consider, as home educators, the whys and whens of choosing courses that are less challenging. Please don't judge each other's educational methods; please don't be quick to feel judged. God gave us the kids we're supposed to raise. He trusts us with them; we can trust ourselves and each other with them, too.

 

Debbie

:grouphug::grouphug: I think that what you're doing is great, and you aren't the one who reopened the debate. I do think this is interesting, particularly since it was difficult for me to even get to the point where I would do that with my own dc, but once I got there I was very happy to realize that it's okay.

 

It's okay to do this even if you have true geniuses if they enjoy it and that's what they do.

 

Some parents, and I'll be the first to admit that I have been this way myself before, tend to get offended and or defensive at times if they feel that someone is slamming what they do. I've felt that way at times on various forums here and IRL, but I do work to overcome it. My dc are my dc, and whether or not they are working up or down to the levels they are capable of or the levels others think they ought to be are two different things. Whether I'm doing the best I can or going through a slump thanks to the lovely age of perimenopause and menopause or raising dd's with raging horrormones are also ours and ours alone.

 

Instead of hard feelings, let's celebrate our differences and :party:!

[flyingiguana]

I really did NOT intend to re-open, or take a side on the recurring debate about 'rigor.'

 

I DID intend to share some of my personal situation and give reasons why in certain cases, I specifically chose courses that were 'below' my kids level.

 

That's why I used the term 'dumbed down.' My son got a 35 on the ACT English portion. (Noticeably better than he did in math/science, nonetheless, he wants to go into computers.) ....

Debbie

 

Hey, I thought your post was inspiring.

 

FWIW -- my daughter also had similar ACT math vs English scores. The math score was respectable, but nothing I've seen anyone brag about. But then she got into college math courses -- and discovered that all those kids who did really well on the math ACT aren't the ones doing all that well in the math classes. It looks to me as if the ACT scores are ghih for folks that can think superficially and quickly. The deep thinkers, the ones who can actually figure out math in a course, tend not to score quite so high. (Of course, maybe a student would be better off if they could do both: think quickly and superficially for standardized tests and then turn on the actual brain when they are really doing math.)

 

The kids she knows who scored highest on the math ACT or SAT are now in college majoring in non-science fields, and complaining about how hard math is (for those few courses they're required to take). Not exactly a big sample size, but interesting, all the same.

[mamato3 all-boy boys]

And those lower expectations are likely still higher than most PS! :001_smile:

 

:iagree: We took our K through 6th graders to the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston a few weeks ago to do some compare and contrast between northern and southern renaissance art styles. They now know more about this subject than I'm sure most if not pretty darn near *all* high school students, let alone their same aged peers.

 

I think homeschoolers' expectations (at least in the circle I run around in -- including here at the boards!) is far different from those in government schooling.

[laughing lioness]

Jumping in late so I missed most of the cross fire but just wanted to say that I agree wholeheartedly with my friend below.

 

Shouldn't the goal of ANY education be to help each individual achieve what is appropriate for their abilities? It is absolutely pointless to expect work levels far beyond a child's abilities. It is equally counter-productive to force an advanced kid to work below their abilities.

 

I can't imagine allowing what other people are achieving or aren't achieving as a personal indicator in what is going on in my home. Heck......you can't even compare the education of one of my own kids to one of their own siblings. Their educations don't look very similar at all b/c every single grade level is completely tailor made for that individual child.

 

I don't even let my kids compare themselves to each other. My jr isn't permitted to "feel threatened" by the fact that her 14 yo brother surpassed her in math ability about 2 yrs ago. (We deal with that here too) His math abilities do not reflect on her at all. They reflect on him. Just as he isn't permitted to "feel dumb" b/c his sister reads about 4-5 books to his one b/c he is an incredibly slow reader. Her reading abilities are hers......not his.

 

Goodness, every single person in this world has struggles to overcome. Rejoice in others accomplishments and be confident in our own achievements.

 

My goal is to be intentional as I homeschool. For some of my kids that means really pushing. For some it means backing off.

[Gwen in VA]

Shouldn't the goal of ANY education be to help each individual achieve what is appropriate for their abilities? It is absolutely pointless to expect work levels far beyond a child's abilities. It is equally counter-productive to force an advanced kid to work below their abilities.

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

My kids are all reasonably intelligent, but they differ wildly in how they are choosing to use that intelligence. I have two who are heading towards Ph.D.'s, one musician, and one whose goal is to work with his hands. Our struggle is to tailor the education to the child -- and to remember the ultimate two goals of education in our hosuehold --

 

1) To pass on culture,

2) To prepare the child to live life well

 

That means that while some of the kids have definitely pursued a "most academic" track, some are choosing to focus in the non-academic arena and just don't have the time to commit to academics, regardless of whether they have the ability or interest. So we are following a distinctly "less rigorous" route in academics with those children, though the expectations are high in other areas. Tailoring the education to the child is a huge challenge, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

So we pray for guidance and march forward.

[laughing lioness]

So we pray for guidance and march forward.

 

:iagree:I love how you put this.

 

And isn't that the point of the discussions on rigor or grade inflation? That there is a going forward rather than mired in twaddle?

[creekland]

The kids she knows who scored highest on the math ACT or SAT are now in college majoring in non-science fields, and complaining about how hard math is (for those few courses they're required to take). Not exactly a big sample size, but interesting, all the same.

 

This is almost always unrelated to the actual score, but rather, due to whether or not a student learned the thought process behind the math (concepts) or just memorized steps to get a problem done. For those that memorized steps, well, you simply can't do that and be successful in college level math/science "for the sciences" courses. Some kids that had previously done well now figure out they are lost, and, not ever having learned to work/study to learn the process, they give up. Kids that learned the concepts and/or learned to work/study to learn continue chugging along and do well.

 

That said, in general, those with higher scores tend to have the capability to do better, but there certainly is no guarantee.

 

It's why I consider learning the foundations well and the concepts behind them to be far more important than just how far one can go and check boxes to say something was "learned" (and then sometimes promptly forgotten).

[Storm Bay]

And isn't that the point of the discussions on rigor or grade inflation? That there is a going forward rather than mired in twaddle?

Yes.

[KathyBC]

I find this thread rather amusing.

 

Who is your intended audience? Prefacing your remarks with condescension tends to alienate your audience.

 

I find neither people's logical explanation of their educational choices, nor others' heart-sick plea to accept their children's perfectly normal performance as acceptable, to be amusing - something to be belittled - at all.

[8filltheheart]

Who is your intended audience?

 

I guess those who aren't easily offended. ;)

 

I find neither people's logical explanation of their educational choices, nor others' heart-sick plea to accept their children's perfectly normal performance as acceptable, to be amusing - something to be belittled - at all.

 

In all seriousness, neither do I. The OP was a valid POV.

 

However, this quote others' heart-sick plea to accept their children's perfectly normal performance as acceptable lies at the heart of issue, doesn't it? I have been reading this board for yrs and I wonder why anyone would feel like they have to feel defensive about that or the performance of any of their children, even if below normal.

 

I have an adult child that is only going to aspire to menial labor. How does the fact that there are kids are taking college level courses as high school freshman impact me and his education and future? It doesn't. How does his lack of ability to pursue a college education and white collar job impact his sibling that is incredibly advanced? It doesn't.

 

So, there are a lot of high achievers on this forum. Bravo for them. I am thrilled to see the accomplishments that homeschoolers are able to provide for their children. I am so glad that they share their experiences b/c it gives me a glimpse of educational opportunities that I would never thought possible amg the homeschooling community.

 

Is my perfectly avg 11th grade dd any less wonderful b/c she is going to be a typical cookie cutter high school graduate? No. Their accomplishments do not diminish who she is at all. She is still the unique, special young lady that she is. When I read the posts about the amazing young people on this forum, I think "bully for them!" not, "wow......my dd is a dud and no one on this forum would possibly ever accept her as an educated individual."

[Niffercoo]

When I read the posts about the amazing young people on this forum, I think "bully for them!" not, "wow......my dd is a dud and no one on this forum would possibly ever accept her as an educated individual."

 

I need to learn how to do this. I desperately need some guidance on planning high school for Austin, but after reading a few threads I get terribly depressed and hesitant to post any of my questions. I need to know how to plan high school for a child who won't be going on to college and may struggle to live independently when everyone is talking about dual enrollment.

[creekland]

I guess those who aren't easily offended. ;)

 

 

 

In all seriousness, neither do I. The OP was a valid POV.

 

However, this quote others' heart-sick plea to accept their children's perfectly normal performance as acceptable lies at the heart of issue, doesn't it? I have been reading this board for yrs and I wonder why anyone would feel like they have to feel defensive about that or the performance of any of their children, even if below normal.

 

I have an adult child that is only going to aspire to menial labor. How does the fact that there are kids are taking college level courses as high school freshman impact me and his education and future? It doesn't. How does his lack of ability to pursue a college education and white collar job impact his sibling that is incredibly advanced? It doesn't.

 

So, there are a lot of high achievers on this forum. Bravo for them. I am thrilled to see the accomplishments that homeschoolers are able to provide for their children. I am so glad that they share their experiences b/c it gives me a glimpse of educational opportunities that I would never thought possible amg the homeschooling community.

 

Is my perfectly avg 11th grade dd any less wonderful b/c she is going to be a typical cookie cutter high school graduate? No. Their accomplishments do not diminish who she is at all. She is still the unique, special young lady that she is. When I read the posts about the amazing young people on this forum, I think "bully for them!" not, "wow......my dd is a dud and no one on this forum would possibly ever accept her as an educated individual."

 

:iagree: You and I agree on a lot of things.

[creekland]

I need to learn how to do this. I desperately need some guidance on planning high school for Austin, but after reading a few threads I get terribly depressed and hesitant to post any of my questions. I need to know how to plan high school for a child who won't be going on to college and may struggle to live independently when everyone is talking about dual enrollment.

 

Please do not get depressed just due to a perceived ladder of education where top is better and lower is not. The worth of anyone is not in their education, but in finding their niche and becoming the person they are meant to be - some of which is academic education. Society as a whole puts brain surgery (and similar) at the top and mechanics (and similar) at the bottom, but they shouldn't. I sure use a mechanic more than a brain surgeon, but I want the brain surgeon there should I ever need him/her.

 

I wish there were a way to overcome the "prestige" factor that is out there and just be happy for everyone when they find their niche. My own youngest had to overcome a bit of self esteem issues when he kept comparing himself to middle son. It took a lot of time, talk, and reasoning to get him to realize God didn't MAKE him to be middle son. God wants him to be him, the best him he's created to be and filling the niche God wanted him to fill. I do not love my top academic son any more or less than either of my other two. I just want the best fit for them all. (And, I love my nephew the mechanic who never could/did finish high school too.)

 

I can be disappointed when middle son misses National Merit Finalist due to a time issue technicality (coupled with the state we chose to move to) and still rejoice when older or younger make a really good score (for them) on the same test even if it's lower than his.

 

I can rejoice with others when they have their highs and share their disappointment when they have their lows without feeling one iota of envy or shame. I like it when people share. I like it when people ask questions I can add to. I like it when others ask questions and I can glean answers. I like it when others share their info on my questions. If people stop sharing due to perceived attacks or negative feelings, we all lose IMO.

 

ps If one doesn't care for the "god" part of the above, replace the word with evolution or whatever you choose. The same principle applies. I just give credit where I think it's due. Others can do the same.

[KathyBC]

So, there are a lot of high achievers on this forum. Bravo for them. I am thrilled to see the accomplishments that homeschoolers are able to provide for their children. I am so glad that they share their experiences b/c it gives me a glimpse of educational opportunities that I would never thought possible amg the homeschooling community.

 

Is my perfectly avg 11th grade dd any less wonderful b/c she is going to be a typical cookie cutter high school graduate? No. Their accomplishments do not diminish who she is at all. She is still the unique, special young lady that she is. When I read the posts about the amazing young people on this forum, I think "bully for them!" not, "wow......my dd is a dud and no one on this forum would possibly ever accept her as an educated individual."

 

I absolutely agree: this board is a wonderful glimpse into the lives of others. I appreciate and value that we are not all the same.

 

However, this quote others' heart-sick plea to accept their children's perfectly normal performance as acceptable lies at the heart of issue, doesn't it? I have been reading this board for yrs and I wonder why anyone would feel like they have to feel defensive about that or the performance of any of their children, even if below normal.

 

 

Well, the 15-page 'low expectations' thread obviously didn't upset your confidence ;) but any confidence can sure take a beating when you overhear that level of bemoaning. It just presumes far too much: that there is only one measure of hard work; only one standard of education; that any other realm of accomplishment falls short. It is hard to share honestly in that environment. We *all* need to prepare our kids for their future, not just the one future a segment has deemed 'best'. Parents who make different choices are not necessarily 'setting the bar too low'.

 

At least, I *hope* that is the issue with others, and not just that they can't accept that others have gifts and aptitudes different from their own!

[KathyBC]

Please do not get depressed just due to a perceived ladder of education where top is better and lower is not. The worth of anyone is not in their education, but in finding their niche and becoming the person they are meant to be - some of which is academic education. Society as a whole puts brain surgery (and similar) at the top and mechanics (and similar) at the bottom, but they shouldn't. I sure use a mechanic more than a brain surgeon, but I want the brain surgeon there should I ever need him/her.

 

I wish there were a way to overcome the "prestige" factor that is out there and just be happy for everyone when they find their niche.

 

Bravo! That was so very well said.

[swimmermom3]

I've got an 11th grader and a 12th grader. Both have a mix of outsourced classes and 'truly homeschooled' classes.

 

Last year, I let my daughter take the class she wanted to take, using the curriculum she wanted. High school level? Nope. Effective? I think so. Let me explain. I used to read the Famous Men books to them aloud -- way back in elementary school. She loved them, and wanted to do them again. I remember being impressed with certain aspects of them, plus I know that what she loves, she learns. So I gave her a half credit in the 2nd semester of 10th grade for reading Famous Men of Greece and Famous Men of Rome, writing a paper on one of the people in the chapters, and taking two tests.

 

It wasn't impressive, but she learned it and remembers it much more that she would have using some fat textbook with tons of detailed and frankly, not very important, information.

 

So, reason 1: Sometimes a lighter course with less material crammed down their throats will result in significantly more learning.

 

Second case: At the end of his sophomore year, my son decided to take a 2-year, 3.5 credit (each year) class at our local career center in computer networking. I hadn't planned on that, and to all of a sudden have 7 credits 'taken away from me' for his last two years in high school messed with my 4 year plan dramatically. Since he'd only ever taken a couple of online courses before, I added the bare minimum to his 11th grade schedule: Precalc, physics, British lit, and PE.

 

Then, as we were facing 12th grade, he was continuing the class, but had only 2 credits of social studies, no art of any kind, etc. He would take calculus and electronics, but still needed credits in social studies, English, and some kind of art. I spent the summer looking for the easiest courses I could find for those three, knowing that his other classes would be hard and time consuming, and college applications were coming, etc.

 

So reason 2: If a student is taking a heavy load of courses that will matter much more to their future, it might make sense to make the less important courses easier on them.

 

Finally, reason 3: I've seen enough of what the public schools have produced -- even schools with this so called 'excellent' rating, that I don't feel in the slightest bit guilty!

 

Just thought I'd share some thoughts from the practical as opposed to theoretical end of the discussion....

 

Debbie

 

Debbie, tonight I thought of your comment about your dd reading the Famous Men books for high school and how much of the information she remembered. You may enjoy knowing that one of the best British mystery writers, Josephine Tey, would probably agree with your assessment.

 

I am reading The Daughter of Time. The protagonist, an inspector at Scotland Yard, is bedridden and bored. He finds himself considering historical crimes and asks a nurse to bring him history books. One of the two books she brings him is a children's history book:

 

"The little book pleased him so much that he went through it at his leisure. Solemnly reading each childish story. This, after all, was the history that every adult remembered. This is what remained in their minds when tonnage and poundage, and ship money, and Laud's Liturgy, and the Rye House Plot, and the Triennial Acts. and all the long muddle of schism and shindy, treaty and treason, had faded from their consciousness."

[Storm Bay]

I need to learn how to do this. I desperately need some guidance on planning high school for Austin, but after reading a few threads I get terribly depressed and hesitant to post any of my questions. I need to know how to plan high school for a child who won't be going on to college and may struggle to live independently when everyone is talking about dual enrollment.

 

You needn't be, and NOT everyone is talking about dual enrollment:001_smile:. I realize that it seems that way at times, but it really isn't. That said, there may be a few posters like that, but when you're in a large group such as this there are always going to be some that you won't see eye to eye with.

 

Our society has a somewhat skewed value system where it honours certain types of jobs rather than ethics and hard work (like in the quote below.)

 

Please do not get depressed just due to a perceived ladder of education where top is better and lower is not. The worth of anyone is not in their education, but in finding their niche and becoming the person they are meant to be - some of which is academic education. Society as a whole puts brain surgery (and similar) at the top and mechanics (and similar) at the bottom, but they shouldn't. I sure use a mechanic more than a brain surgeon, but I want the brain surgeon there should I ever need him/her.

 

I wish there were a way to overcome the "prestige" factor that is out there and just be happy for everyone when they find their niche.

 

:iagree: Your entire post is wonderful, but I want to say something on this one topic because it's one close to my heart. Brain surgeons do difficult work that his highly specialized, and with all their malpractice insurance & overhead they couldn't practice if they earned what a garbage collector (whats the PC term? Can't remember) makes, but proper garbage disposal and clean water have done more for increasing longevity than modern medicine has.

 

More importantly, how are these people as people? Many surgeons, although not all, are difficult to work and/or live with; the qualities that help them be good surgeons aren't always tempered enough to make them easy to live with (my dad's a surgeon, so I don't mean to slight them, just point something out.)

 

But everyone of us ought to be able to vent when our dc aren't working hard, regardless of their academic ability and what score it is they missed. And everyone of us ought to feel free to mention when their dc are doing something average, if they struggle, or if they are a combination of abilities.

 

It's very difficult to convey tone of voice by writing, but also different people have different levels of sensitivity. For those of us who are highly sensitive, it takes a lot of work not to get offended too easily, and for those who aren't easily offended it can take a lot of work to learn to communicate to those of us who are.

[8filltheheart]

I need to learn how to do this. I desperately need some guidance on planning high school for Austin, but after reading a few threads I get terribly depressed and hesitant to post any of my questions. I need to know how to plan high school for a child who won't be going on to college and may struggle to live independently when everyone is talking about dual enrollment.

 

Oh, please don't hesitate to ask. I wish I could have a do over with our Aspie. We couldn't find any real guidance from anyone until our most recent therapist. Praise the Lord, he is such a blessing in our lives b/c he is a resource that is finally helping us wade through realistic options.

 

For our ds, he is intelligent, but he cannot handle unexpected changes or out of the normal experiences. For example, he has been taking classes at the CC this semester. This experience made it abundantly clear that in no way he could he manage getting a 4 yr degree or even hold down a job that is not rote from day to day. He literally had severe anxiety attacks over every assignment in a business 100 class b/c they were not simple English/math assignments. His business final was postponed due to snow and he paced and temper-tantrumed for hrs yelling that he wasn't going to take the final now and whatever grade he received w/o the final was going to be his grade. (and this was an incredibly easy class and the final is only a chapter test!)

 

PM me if you would like to have a private discussion.

[BlsdMama]

:iagree:.

 

And isn't that the point of the discussions on rigor or grade inflation? That there is a going forward rather than mired in twaddle?

 

 

I remember the first few years after we started homeschooling our less academic second child... I was still incredibly caught up in "use the most rigorous curriculum." It had worked well with the oldest.

 

:confused:

 

Then I discovered something even more valuable... Using the curriculum that inspired us to do it, do it consistently, and retain the information.

 

There is no perfect curriculum, even that which is deemed the most rigorous... But the average curriculum that is used consistently and thoroughly will generally hold more value than another, if it is overwhelming the user.

[Guest]

I am reading The Daughter of Time. The protagonist, an inspector at Scotland Yard, is bedridden and bored. He finds himself considering historical crimes and asks a nurse to bring him history books. One of the two books she brings him is a children's history book:

 

"The little book pleased him so much that he went through it at his leisure. Solemnly reading each childish story. This, after all, was the history that every adult remembered. This is what remained in their minds when tonnage and poundage, and ship money, and Laud's Liturgy, and the Rye House Plot, and the Triennial Acts. and all the long muddle of schism and shindy, treaty and treason, had faded from their consciousness."

 

This is one of my very favorite books ever! We just finished Teaching Company lectures on the predecessors of the Tudors, and though dd likes the lectures a lot, I am going to have dd read the Tey book to make it all come more alive.

 

When I was in 10th grade history class I was bored out of my skull, and the teacher actually noticed that I was reading AHEAD in my textbook rather than tuning out. He took me aside, gave me a stack of his favorite historical novels about the American Revolution, and sent me to the library for history class, telling me simply to come back when I was finished reading and tell him how I had liked them. I had the best time that year, and I learned more about American history than I ever had before.

 

In fact I preferred historical fiction well into adulthood; now I adore biographies and "straight" history and have done archival research myself. But remembering this and seeing a similar tendency in dd, I have allowed her to read fiction to pursue her own goal of learning about the Napoleonic period. We're also watching Sharpe's Rifles. Reading primary sources and discussing more conventional history issues happens elsewhere.

[swimmermom3]

Off-topic and side-tracked:D:

 

 

This is one of my very favorite books ever! We just finished Teaching Company lectures on the predecessors of the Tudors, and though dd likes the lectures a lot, I am going to have dd read the Tey book to make it all come more alive.

 

When I was in 10th grade history class I was bored out of my skull, and the teacher actually noticed that I was reading AHEAD in my textbook rather than tuning out. He took me aside, gave me a stack of his favorite historical novels about the American Revolution, and sent me to the library for history class, telling me simply to come back when I was finished reading and tell him how I had liked them. I had the best time that year, and I learned more about American history than I ever had before.

 

In fact I preferred historical fiction well into adulthood; now I adore biographies and "straight" history and have done archival research myself. But remembering this and seeing a similar tendency in dd, I have allowed her to read fiction to pursue her own goal of learning about the Napoleonic period. We're also watching Sharpe's Rifles. Reading primary sources and discussing more conventional history issues happens elsewhere.

 

Karen, I just finished the book while camping out all morning on my bed with the Cowboy Bob who is perpetually cold.:D It was too short. I wish I wasn't such a greedy gus and had savored it a bit more. We place so much emphasis on primary sources in history but we seldom talk about the fallibility of those same items. My kids were intrigued to find out that the Boston Massacre wasn't a massacre and that Rameses the Great's only real claim to fame was being superb at promoting self-propaganda. I have thought about taking some time to talk about historical myths. Tey's book might be a fun start; where do you suggest we go from there? I was fascinated about the part regarding St. Thomas More and also about the possibility of household ledgers being more accurate than a first-hand eyewitness account.

[8filltheheart]

I absolutely agree: this board is a wonderful glimpse into the lives of others. I appreciate and value that we are not all the same.

 

 

 

 

Well, the 15-page 'low expectations' thread obviously didn't upset your confidence ;) but any confidence can sure take a beating when you overhear that level of bemoaning. It just presumes far too much: that there is only one measure of hard work; only one standard of education; that any other realm of accomplishment falls short. It is hard to share honestly in that environment. We *all* need to prepare our kids for their future, not just the one future a segment has deemed 'best'. Parents who make different choices are not necessarily 'setting the bar too low'.

 

At least, I *hope* that is the issue with others, and not just that they can't accept that others have gifts and aptitudes different from their own!

 

I probably didn't read the thread to which you are referring, but I can imagine what was in it. I gripe and groan about many IRL homeschoolers who don't teach appropriate level materials, so I am probably guilty of the very sort of discussion you describe. ;)

 

But I have seen kids futures ruined b/c they haven't been educated, but that is NOT the same thing as teaching children appropriately for their abilities and their future objectives. Those are 2 completely different conversations.

 

FWIW......my oldest is pretty much another cookie-cutter high school graduate that had avg ACT scores (no where near what people on this forum post.) Perhaps my confidence in not worrying about completely normal kids is b/c he has thrived in college. His professors recruit him. His grades are outstanding. He works incredibly hard and it shows. We know another young man at the same uni that scored 36 on the ACT and went there on full scholarship that couldn't manage the courses and was forced to change majors. His mom actually told my ds that he would need to have a back up major planned b/c he probably wouldn't make it in the chemE dept. :tongue_smilie:

 

ACT scores are only a small dot in the make-up of a young adult, so are dual enrollment classes vs. solid preparatory classes. The ability to self-motivate, persevere, study, etc are actually more important. They need a solid foundation......whatever that foundation may be......that supports THEIR goals and objectives. If they don't have ownership over their future and their education, that will hamper them far more than any ACT/SAT score or lack of dual enrollment credit.

 

As long as I know I have researched the best course of action for the individual child, I can do no more. Hindsight is 20-20. We made the mistake of having our Aspie pursue a college bound high school ed b/c he is intelligent. However, that was b/c we were seeing his future through our eyes and not paying better attention to his realistic needs. He would have been much better served enrolling in the local vocational school. Now we have to help him reach those goals and correct the mistakes we caused.

[swimmermom3]

I probably didn't read the thread to which you are referring, but I can imagine what was in it. I gripe and groan about many IRL homeschoolers who don't teach appropriate level materials, so I am probably guilty of the very sort of discussion you describe. ;)

 

But I have seen kids futures ruined b/c they haven't been educated, but that is NOT the same thing as teaching children appropriately for their abilities and their future objectives. Those are 2 completely different conversations.

 

FWIW......my oldest is pretty much another cookie-cutter high school graduate that had avg ACT scores (no where near what people on this forum post.) Perhaps my confidence in not worrying about completely normal kids is b/c he has thrived in college. His professors recruit him. His grades are outstanding. He works incredibly hard and it shows. We know another young man at the same uni that scored 36 on the ACT and went there on full scholarship that couldn't manage the courses and was forced to change majors. His mom actually told my ds that he would need to have a back up major planned b/c he probably wouldn't make it in the chemE dept. :tongue_smilie:

 

ACT scores are only a small dot in the make-up of a young adult, so are dual enrollment classes vs. solid preparatory classes. The ability to self-motivate, persevere, study, etc are actually more important. They need a solid foundation......whatever that foundation may be......that supports THEIR goals and objectives. If they don't have ownership over their future and their education, that will hamper them far more than any ACT/SAT score or lack of dual enrollment credit.

 

As long as I know I have researched the best course of action for the individual child, I can do no more. Hindsight is 20-20. We made the mistake of having our Aspie pursue a college bound high school ed b/c he is intelligent. However, that was b/c we were seeing his future through our eyes and not paying better attention to his realistic needs. He would have been much better served enrolling in the local vocational school. Now we have to help him reach those goals and correct the mistakes we caused.

 

As always, thank you for lending the voice of experience. I think I will go do some mindless chores and ponder what you have written.

[KathyBC]

But I have seen kids futures ruined b/c they haven't been educated, but that is NOT the same thing as teaching children appropriately for their abilities and their future objectives. Those are 2 completely different conversations.

 

Okay, can I get a concrete example of a ruined future? What was missing? These are the statements that cause me to lose sleep at night!

 

The ability to self-motivate, persevere, study, etc are actually more important.

 

Agreed. Do you think this can be taught? How can it be encouraged?

[creekland]

Okay, can I get a concrete example of a ruined future? What was missing? These are the statements that cause me to lose sleep at night!

 

 

I can, but I doubt you need to be worried. Note: None of these kids have mental issues to where these things should be a problem. That's a different scenario.

 

I've seen kids that can't multiply 2x4 without a calculator or do any other calculations with multiplying/dividing or even beyond the simple 2+4 in addition or subtraction without one.

 

I've seen kids that can't read and understand what they are reading if the book is any deeper than a basic comic book. They can't understand a newspaper article for instance.

 

I've seen kids that watch a movie (educational) and then can't tell you anything they actually learned from it as they were watching, but not focused on it - their minds were elsewhere.

 

I've seen kids that can't place a single country or state on an unmarked map - not even Florida.

 

I've seen kids that don't know Maine IS a state. Ditto that with Idaho.

 

I've seen kids that can't tell the difference between water and land on a black and white map with a key.

 

These are some just off the top of my head this morning... and all come from my actual (IRL) public school subbing experiences (high school). None of the examples are rare. I can expect those problems (or similar ones) pretty much every day I teach with the exception of a few higher level classes. And remember, I'm not talking about learning disabled kids. I'm talking "average" classes. Not all kids have these problems, of course, but there are those that do.

 

Then I can relate some that are put back into school from homeschooling who also don't know the basics for their grade, but there are no more of them than those already in the ps who are the same. If I were to look at percentages, I'd say there were less of them than ps kids, but it's a guess. When asked about their "education" they usually say mom bought some workbooks from Wally World and gave them to them to complete, but that was it. Then tended to spend very little time on school and don't exactly come with a decent work ethic.

 

(I'll also add that some of my favorite high school students - VERY pleasant to be around and with a good educational background - were homeschooled, but that's a different thread).

 

A headline today says that 1 in 4 kids trying to take an academic entrance exam for the military fail it (some of these might have mental issues, but I doubt they all do).

 

What are these kids supposed to do with their lives? Sure there are some jobs out there for them, but enough for that many? Generally not.

 

It would REALLY surprise me if anyone on here were hurting their kids educationally by comparison. Parents in the above category certainly wouldn't care enough to read a forum on education (either ps or hs).

 

Now, my son(s) might come back to us later wondering why we didn't do _____________, but then again, I look back on my public high school experience (and college experience) and wonder why "I" didn't do _____________ too. That's just hindsight, not someone who's life has been ruined. No one can make all the right choices all the time in life. When one sees something that they can change, change it (whether with education, marriage, work, life or whatever). Don't beat yourself up over it.

 

My Dad always told me, "When you make a mistake, learn from it, don't dwell on it. The stress from dwelling on it causes more problems than the mistake in the first place."

 

It's advice I have never forgotten and have often passed on.

[creekland]

Sorry, I forgot to address the "what's missing" part of the question.

 

What's missing? The ability to think or care about whether one learns or not. As an employer, I'd hire someone who cared to learn about the job, planned to take care to do a good job, and who could think through any issues that might come up. The kids I know who fit in the above category would not fit that description. In a good economy, they can probably bounce around in different jobs. In a poor economy? Who wants them working for them?

[jld]

Wow, that is amazing, creekland. Why do you think so many students know so little? You've said it's an average school district, right? Not an especially underprivileged area?

 

8, I think you're being too hard on yourself. I'm sure you've done the best you could with your son with what you knew at the time. No one doubts you are devoted to your children. I'm sure there are many women here just as devoted, but none more than you. We all learn a lot from you, and from all the veterans on these boards.

 

And I'm sorry that so many people were hurt or intimidated by the low expectations thread. In hindsight, life would have been a lot easier if I hadn't started that thread. That said, I did learn a lot from it, mainly that there are just a lot of different ways of thinking about education.

[creekland]

Wow, that is amazing, creekland. Why do you think so many students know so little? You've said it's an average school district, right? Not an especially underprivileged area?

 

 

The students know so little because they don't care. Literally, they don't want to know these things, so they don't learn them, or learn them for a test, then forget because they never put "stuff" into long term learning - just short term memorization. Our school district covers all the items I mentioned in earlier grades, so the kids were exposed to the ideas/info, but they see no need to remember any of it.

 

Of course, the same kids can tell you all about Hollywood stars, cars, video games, or whatever else they ARE into, but can't tell you the meaning of Biology (study of life) or do the math or know geography, etc.

 

And yes, via standardized testing our school district falls slightly below average for our state and our state is slightly above average for the country. We are semi-rural, but not in the boonies. Average income for our county is slightly below the state average. Spending in the school is high. Technology is in our school moreso than many I've read about. Most teachers know their material reasonably well or well. What we can't do is turn on the brains.

 

One good point? We just got our first NMSF in many years (224 on PSAT - good enough for PA)! She's a great gal and I'm very happy for her. Her plan is to go to Wheaton (IL) majoring in something with intent to head to Pre-Med.

 

Of course, I probably should add that she moved into our district in 6th grade and does a ton of outside learning on her own. Nonetheless, when the average kid doesn't care and puts forth little effort, she's a shining star who has done well. (There are other "good" kids too who do put forth effort and will be great adults - they aren't all like the above examples.)

[8filltheheart]

Okay, can I get a concrete example of a ruined future? What was missing? These are the statements that cause me to lose sleep at night!

 

Agreed. Do you think this can be taught? How can it be encouraged?

 

I only have a sec. Ds and dil are flying in this morning and today is baby's 1st birthday. We have a party to celebrate. :D

 

Concrete examples......

 

I have taught co-op classes to high schoolers where entire PAGES of an essay were nothing more than a single quote from an original source. When I spoke to the mom, her response was that she really didn't worry about writing and didn't care. She didn't have time to work with her dd on writing. (I was teaching a history class, not writing.)

 

In another class, I marked mistakes in students' essays. I had a mom get really upset with me and tell me that you can't expect high school students to not have verb shift changes or staying in a single POV and that she didn't want me marking her children's papers any more.

 

High school students that did school 4 days/week for just a few hrs/day. Or only completing 1 class for sr yr, alg 2. (kids with no learning disabilities and that did have goals of going to collegel)

 

 

What was missing.......understanding of appropriate level work for their students and actual teacher responsibility toward figuring out what courses their students needed. FWIW.......I have never seen any posters on this forum detached from the educational process like this.

 

As far as the 2nd part.......I think it actually ties in with the first. We have to constantly increase levels of expectation. We can't simply keep hrs or workload on par with our elementary level kids. Just b/c we could do 4 1/2 day weeks does not mean that we should when they are in high school. :tongue_smilie: We need to research admission standards and help our students meet those minimum levels. Our students need to be part of the process b/c ultimately they are the ones who need to make the grade.

 

Study habits and persevering through hard work......it only comes from actually being expected to meet high standards. This is where the 2 arguments split. High standards are absolutely not a flat line where the end goal is the same for everyone. High standards are what help each individual child meet THEIR best outcomes for persevering.

[8filltheheart]

W

 

8, I think you're being too hard on yourself. I'm sure you've done the best you could with your son with what you knew at the time. No one doubts you are devoted to your children. I'm sure there are many women here just as devoted, but none more than you. We all learn a lot from you, and from all the veterans on these boards.

 

.

 

Trust me, jld, I am definitely a mom with lots and lots of mistakes behind me. There are days I want to do nothing more than curl up under the blankets in full retreat!! ;)

 

I plug along, but I am definitely guilty of not always doing my best. :tongue_smilie:

 

If you want real inspiration, read the SN's board. There are some very inspirational women on that board. Their struggles are great and under appreciated in our world. I always try to lift them in prayer b/c they are the moms that reflect the face of mercy and goodness.

[jld]

If you want real inspiration, read the SN's board. There are some very inspirational women on that board. Their struggles are great and under appreciated in our world. I always try to lift them in prayer b/c they are the moms that reflect the face of mercy and goodness.

 

I am sure this is true. I shouldn't complain about the challenges of regular parenting!

[creekland]

We need to research admission standards and help our students meet those minimum levels. Our students need to be part of the process b/c ultimately they are the ones who need to make the grade.

 

 

 

Hope you had a great party!

 

JUST because we are potentially informing parents here...

 

Many colleges do not really accept students who have just met the minimum levels on their websites unless those students have some other "hook" (star athlete, non-academic major, legacy, geographic or other diversity, etc). A more selective college often wants to see more for most accepted students. (4 years math instead of 3 for example.)

[jld]

The students know so little because they don't care. Literally, they don't want to know these things, so they don't learn them, or learn them for a test, then forget because they never put "stuff" into long term learning - just short term memorization. Our school district covers all the items I mentioned in earlier grades, so the kids were exposed to the ideas/info, but they see no need to remember any of it.

 

Of course, the same kids can tell you all about Hollywood stars, cars, video games, or whatever else they ARE into, but can't tell you the meaning of Biology (study of life) or do the math or know geography, etc.

 

And yes, via standardized testing our school district falls slightly below average for our state and our state is slightly above average for the country. We are semi-rural, but not in the boonies. Average income for our county is slightly below the state average. Spending in the school is high. Technology is in our school moreso than many I've read about. Most teachers know their material reasonably well or well. What we can't do is turn on the brains.

 

One good point? We just got our first NMSF in many years (224 on PSAT - good enough for PA)! She's a great gal and I'm very happy for her. Her plan is to go to Wheaton (IL) majoring in something with intent to head to Pre-Med.

 

Of course, I probably should add that she moved into our district in 6th grade and does a ton of outside learning on her own. Nonetheless, when the average kid doesn't care and puts forth little effort, she's a shining star who has done well. (There are other "good" kids too who do put forth effort and will be great adults - they aren't all like the above examples.)

 

So it's basically just a complete lack of interest and perceived lack of need? Wow. How discouraging.

 

You know, I'm not sure I know America anymore. I think I just have an idealized idea of it, that maybe was never true, or at least not for a long time. Thanks for sharing this reality, creekland.

[creekland]

So it's basically just a complete lack of interest and perceived lack of need? Wow. How discouraging.

 

You know, I'm not sure I know America anymore. I think I just have an idealized idea of it, that maybe was never true, or at least not for a long time. Thanks for sharing this reality, creekland.

 

My eyes were opened up incredibly once I started subbing in the public high school and hubby started his own (Civil Engineering) business. Being raised by school teachers and in a great high school, I led a pretty sheltered young life - not sheltered from R rated stuff, but from a major segment of society that doesn't seem to value much, to be honest... certainly not education nor a general work ethic. One can't just throw money nor opportunity out there and assume it will be appreciated and taken advantage of in appropriate ways.

 

That said, there are kids that break the mold and do well (and I don't necessarily mean testing high, but rather, they make something of their lives even with a heritage that hasn't). I REALLY respect those kids and would love to see each of them get great scholarships toward their goals. But, those kids are rare. More common are those that needle my son about his A's asking him why he bothers putting in that much effort when he doesn't have to (and he's not putting in ANY effort compared to our homeschooling).

[Storm Bay]

Concrete examples......

 

I have taught co-op classes to high schoolers where entire PAGES of an essay were nothing more than a single quote from an original source. .

 

I don't teach co-op classes, but I had an instance this fall where the mother of a 14 yo boy decided to opt out of a science lab I was doing because, on the request of my dd, I mentioned that at this level (high school science) dc needed to write down their observations during the lab since this is part of the learning process (I had to do this in ps but also in university). She said thanks, but she'd go something else because her ds didn't learn by writing. Huh?????? fwiw, he'd done labs with us before, and it drove my dd crazy that he wasn't involved in that part of it as the rest of the students were serious students (although they joked around a lot & had fun). fwiw, I had actually mentioned that both years.

 

So it's basically just a complete lack of interest and perceived lack of need? Wow. How discouraging.

 

You know, I'm not sure I know America anymore. I think I just have an idealized idea of it, that maybe was never true, or at least not for a long time. Thanks for sharing this reality, creekland.

 

I think that's what it is:(. I remember seeing this in dc 20 and 30 years ago, and also seeing it when I was a dc, which was more than 30 years ago. The first eg's I remember the most were things I'd hear about Canada when I lived in CA, but I saw it in Canada, too, at times.

[creekland]

Want another example? (Copied from the "failed military" post on the general board, but I thought it would work here too.)

 

My youngest is in 9th grade at my school (went back for reasons other than educational!). He had a 20th Century history test this past week and got the results yesterday. The DAY before the test the teacher told them exactly what was going to be on it and let each class (3) study/review. Out of the three classes he was the only student who scored 100%. Twenty five students failed it. My son didn't even need to study - after all, they did that in class.

 

My son tells stories that equally compare to mine - yet I still can't convince him to come back home. Actually, he's rather relishing his position as the "smart" one in school (and we're supplementing learning at home, so it will work out). He often gets needled from kids who ask why he is so "proper" and puts so much effort into things when a "C" will pass.

[jld]

Creekland, I read recently that while some students in some schools (often wealthy communities) work very hard and are held to high standards, many, many students go to schools where standards are much lower. Would you say this is true? Have you talked with teachers from wealthier school districts who say their teaching experience is really different from what you're experiencing?

[Nan in Mass]

Oooh - I love that one, too. : )

[Guest]

Creekland, I read recently that while some students in some schools (often wealthy communities) work very hard and are held to high standards, many, many students go to schools where standards are much lower. Would you say this is true? Have you talked with teachers from wealthier school districts who say their teaching experience is really different from what you're experiencing?

 

Yes; all you have to do is read a book like Jonathan Kozol's Savage Inequalities or School of Dreams by Edward Humes, and you'll find this is exactly the case. Really wealthy public schools are pretty well private schools in operation. In our city, the VERY wealthy (white) suburb five miles from me has its own library system in which our city cards are not valid; their public high school asked for and received an exemption from all curricular requirements the other city schools have to abide by. The PTA at that school got together and bought a city block of million-dollar houses, bulldozed them, and built a football field -- yes, you read correctly. The school district said it couldn't even afford to maintain it, so the PTA raised more money and hires two full-time maintenance people and pays the water bills.

 

Meanwhile, the school three blocks from my house, an elementary school, tries hard every year to raise money to buy each child two paperback readers. They haven't reached their goal yet. The playground has not one blade of grass, not a solitary one. The principal was fired a number of years ago when the school was declared failing. The population: mostly Hispanic working class.

 

And technically these schools are in the same system.

[distancia]

Then...I'll admit it... There are certain subjects neither I nor my boys care as much about.Those courses are not as rigorous as they could be and I don't care.

 

 

 

This happened with my DD this past semester. Three months and 2/3 through the textbook of into her "fave" class--Apologia's Marine Biology--she came to the conclusion that it wasn't so "fave" anymore; as a matter of fact, those dissections were really boring, since she knew what was going to happen, just by reading the material and looking at the illustrations. She is NOT one to work with her hands; she prefers more abstract reasoning. So she asked if she could switch off Marine Bio and double-up on her Math. I agreed to let her do so, since she had already covered Biology in 10th grade at public school. And what she had covered in a year at p/s was less than what she learned in 3 months at home.

 

She, herself, has chosen to work out of the Mensa Math test question books in addition to her regular Algebra 2 coursework, as she enjoys Math and Logic questions. Mind you, this is a girl who is not a math whiz, but the challenge of doing harder math work, thinking critically, and working at her own pace--sometimes only two Mensa questions a day, taking her 45 minutes to complete--has given her added confidence in a (once) difficult area.

 

This is the real beauty of home education and I am grateful for these opportunities to be flexible.

 

DS reads homeschool boards (he never actually writes comments on them). When he reads posts/threads about kids who are doing SATs in middle school, who are already doing college in early high school, who are seemingly doing all AP courses (he has an aunt who teaches a true college-level AP biology class where most kids get a C or below, so he wonders how many kids are actually getting "real" AP classes, but that is a digression...) -- you get the picture -- he says to me "and they're either going to have nervous breakdowns or commit suicide in their 20s. Doesn't anyone read stories about the Japanese?"

 

 

Fact: My DD is a senior and has p/s friends in the 17-19 range. All of these friends have taken multiple AP classes at school and walked out with As and Bs. These same students have then taken the AP exams and DD estimates that 90% of them fail, receiving scores of 1 or 2. Hence, no college credit for all that work.

 

Not only that, when it comes to taking the SAT these same friends have done quite poorly (490, 520 kind of scores) when one takes into account the intense education they were supposed to be receiving in their AP courses.

 

So, a public high school might brag that 80% of their students are enrolled in AP courses, but the bottom line is, how many of them are actually passing the AP exams?

Edited December 23, 2010 by distancia

[KathyBC]

I don't think a child's future will be ruined if he doesn't go on to college. I know many successful adults who couldn't necessarily write an essay to that standard. I guess I was visualizing kids who don't know how to study and pass the simplest of tests (because here anyway just about every job requires some level of hoop-jumping), who end up starving their children because they can't find ways to maintain things themselves and can't achieve an income level to pay someone else to do it for them.

 

But many teenagers are notoriously short-sighted. They don't care about maintaining verb tense agreement, for instance. How do you encourage self-motivation for the child who just wants to get school over with so they can go on to something else? They persist because they're made to; they have these characteristics (hopefully) modelled for them. But can you really force that to become intrinsic?

[creekland]

Creekland, I read recently that while some students in some schools (often wealthy communities) work very hard and are held to high standards, many, many students go to schools where standards are much lower. Would you say this is true? Have you talked with teachers from wealthier school districts who say their teaching experience is really different from what you're experiencing?

 

Wealth brings the extras, but it is the attitude of society (teachers/parents/students) that make or break the school itself. I went to a VERY good high school in my youth and we were in one of the poorest areas of NY (state), yet it regularly sent top kids on to top schools across the country. My parents taught (music) in that district. Unfortunately, they say it has declined over the past 30 years. I think that's semi-true of many schools too, but I'm sure there are still some out there. They aren't all private.

 

If education is valued by parents, teachers, and students, the schools tend to do well. In the district I work in now, education might be valued by some, but not the majority. The teachers are mostly local and have never seen what a top school can do. Therefore, they think what they see here is normal and fine. Ditto that for the majority of the parents. I'm a transplant. Had I grown up here and attended this school I probably wouldn't be complaining and my kids would likely have stayed in school like their peers. When one doesn't see/experience the difference one doesn't really comprehend that there is a difference.

 

The kids in this school aren't any different (in potential ability) from those of anywhere else. They just aren't motivated to learn or be all that they can be IMO.