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Dropping back a level in Saxon, need advice


KarenNC
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We switched from Singapore to Saxon this year with my daughter, who is in 5th grade. Based on the placement tests and looking at the two books side by side, I chose to start her in 7/6 rather than 6/5, with the option of dropping back to 6/5 if things didn't work as well as I'd hoped. Well, we just finished test 8 (after lesson 45) and things aren't as I'd hoped. I am honestly not sure how much is understanding issues and how much is pubescent brain fog/carelessness, because she'll do really well then really poorly, but, either way, it's not cutting it. I'm headed to the homeschool store to pick up 6/5 this afternoon.

 

My question is, how do I proceed with the 6/5? Do I

a) start at the beginning and just work everything through, or

b) let her try the tests and stop when she no longer makes a 95 (going back and starting with the 5 lessons that that test covers)?

 

In order to try to combat the careless errors, recently I did a chart and told her that if she stayed in the 85+ range on her problem sets for two weeks straight, I'd let her only do half rather than all 30 as long as she kept up the 85+. We didn't get there before this test, but things were looking promising. Should I continue that with 6/5?

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I would review the parts that she seems to be weak on and then go from the farthest chapter you get to. I actually dropped my 5th grader back to 5/4 because she lacks confidence in math and this was her first year HSing. I hope to get her through it and into 6/5 before the end of the year so that she can eventually get through 7/6 but 7th grade? Who knows. She is one minute strong and the next all backwards.:confused:

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My question is, how do I proceed with the 6/5? Do I

a) start at the beginning and just work everything through, or

b) let her try the tests and stop when she no longer makes a 95 (going back and starting with the 5 lessons that that test covers)?

I'd start at the beginning and just work through everything.

 

In order to try to combat the careless errors, recently I did a chart and told her that if she stayed in the 85+ range on her problem sets for two weeks straight, I'd let her only do half rather than all 30 as long as she kept up the 85+. We didn't get there before this test, but things were looking promising. Should I continue that with 6/5?

Do NOT allow her to skip any problems in her Saxon book. Don't. There are no extra problems in Saxon. The constant review is one of Saxon's strengths, and your dc will miss that if she's skipping problems. Also, concepts continue to be developed throughout the whole book, and if your dd skips any problems, she'll miss that, too.

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We switched from Singapore to Saxon this year with my daughter, who is in 5th grade. Based on the placement tests and looking at the two books side by side, I chose to start her in 7/6 rather than 6/5, with the option of dropping back to 6/5 if things didn't work as well as I'd hoped. Well, we just finished test 8 (after lesson 45) and things aren't as I'd hoped. I am honestly not sure how much is understanding issues and how much is pubescent brain fog/carelessness, because she'll do really well then really poorly, but, either way, it's not cutting it. I'm headed to the homeschool store to pick up 6/5 this afternoon.

 

My question is, how do I proceed with the 6/5? Do I

a) start at the beginning and just work everything through, or

b) let her try the tests and stop when she no longer makes a 95 (going back and starting with the 5 lessons that that test covers)?

 

In order to try to combat the careless errors, recently I did a chart and told her that if she stayed in the 85+ range on her problem sets for two weeks straight, I'd let her only do half rather than all 30 as long as she kept up the 85+. We didn't get there before this test, but things were looking promising. Should I continue that with 6/5?

 

The beginning of 6/5 has lots of review, and imho is very easy. Your dd may NOT need to cover all the same material again. I think Saxon recommends taking the 1st test and if your dd scores well (I think it was 80% or better) then you should move to the next lessons. I agree with the pp that you should cover all the material each day. However, if it is material that you feel certain that your dd knows then cover it every other day. I had to cut back with my ds in the beginning with Saxon. They were overwhelmed. This year has been different and we are finally on a good track.

 

HTH

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To give a better idea, her average in the problem sets (doing all 30 problems, but doesn't include the first 10 problem sets as I didn't start recording until 11) is 90.5 and ranges from 68 to 100 (five are below 85, one was a 68). This is not a straight downward trend, though. The poor grades (below 85) are sprinkled in among the good ones. I was willing to continue to work with it until we got to the horrible test result today. Am I overreacting?

 

Her test scores are mystifying me. Her average is 89.6 but the trend is sharply downward:

100, 89, 98, 85, 94, 85, 91, 75.

On the test with the 75 (today) she: multiplied incorrectly, lined up the decimals incorrectly for addition, borrowed in a time subtraction problem incorrectly, estimated incorrectly (answered that a good estimate of the product of 7000 and 4000 was 1 million!), in multiplying fractions multiplied the numerator and left the denominator static.

 

I already have her do every problem, and make her go back and redo the problems she misses to find the error, as well as assigning supplemental work in some areas. We work through all the practice problems together as well as the lesson.

 

I was told by the person at the homeschool store that the first 40 or so problems were review, the next 40 or so new material and the last 40 or so challenging. If she's doing this downward trend now, I'm concerned about continuing. That's why I'm thinking of dropping back a level. I'm worried that what I think are careless errors might actually be conceptual and the problem will just continue to build. Math is not her strongest subject. However, given her placement tests and performance, I don't know that I feel she will need all the review of 5/4 that comes at the beginning of 6/5, which is why I was thinking of having her test until she didn't get a 95 then starting the lessons. I don't want to end up with problems because she's bored, either.

 

It's challenging because I'm a math-oriented person and she is like her father, language arts all the way. I don't expect perfection, but I'm not going to settle for a low B or a C either because I picked a math program that is a bit more than she can handle now. She is a young 5th grader, with an August birthday, so she's 10 and a bit rather than closer to 11. Saxon is also a very different type of program for me, as we had done Singapore all the way through until now (and it was too fast-paced for her once we hit level 4).

Edited by KarenNC
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You have plenty of time to get her foundation as solid as you can before moving any higher.

 

Having btdt with two children now who have had to either start over or repeat 7/6 I would say start nice and easy with 6/5 and the confidence she gets from your body language being pleased she's aced a lesson will be very valuable.

 

 

I just reread this...

"multiplied incorrectly, lined up the decimals incorrectly for addition, borrowed in a time subtraction problem incorrectly, estimated incorrectly (answered that a good estimate of the product of 7000 and 4000 was 1 million!), in multiplying fractions multiplied the numerator and left the denominator static"

 

All of these things are foundational mistakes. IF missed from carelessness, that's easy enough to see. Watch her as she does them on a whiteboard and ask what she'll do next and why bother lining up the decimal points. If she can't tell you because of place value, your going back will serve her for the rest of her math career. KWIM?

I can attest wholeheartedly to the benefit of hours upon hours of sitting with my dc, watching them do their WHOLE lesson on a whiteboard, talking through each and every problem.

 

The important thing though is not to overplace them. It's an easy fix and sounds like you're on your way to success.

 

Hang in and be as postive as you can with her.

Edited by momee
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You've gotten good advice, and you seem to be on the right track. I would be tempted to test thru 6/5, but some of what she is missing is contained in the first part of that book. It's re-explained in 7/6, but the explanation is not as indepth, so I think it would benefit her to just start at the beginning.

I know some don't agree, but we do every problem. Saxon is different in that they don't just throw in problems in the problem set that the child has already seen, they actually put in some problems that extend the knowledge--IOW, they TEACH thru the problem set, so it's important not to miss any of them. You can assign evens and odds and that sort of thing, but that will really slow you down.

 

One thing that worked for us in 6/5 last year was to teach dd the lesson (do the box at the top, too!:001_smile:, and the fact practice), do a few of the practice problems, and give her about 15 minutes to work on the problem set. By then, she needed a break, so I'd have her finish the rest after dinner or after we'd been done with school for a few hours.

The next day, before I looked over her work from the night before, I let her take it out and check for mistakes--not with the answer key, just look it over for any careless adding or whatnot. In the beginning, she'd catch 2, 3, or even 5 mistakes! It took a few weeks before she started NOT making as many careless errors--it really helped her to set it aside and come back to it the next day, and it only added maybe 5 minutes to the lesson.

 

Good luck!

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Are these just careless errors in calculation or conceptual problems? A few of my children have consistently made calculation errors well into 9th grade despite understanding the material. I do think it is related to puberty for those children.

 

I wish I could tell for sure. She is only 10, but is well into transitioning into puberty (I was early as well), so I just don't know.

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I'm surprised that your dd made it into Singapore 4 and can't handle the material in 6/5. IMO singapore moves much more quickly.

 

We went straight from 4A to 7/6. DS makes many careless errors and gets between an 80 and 95 on the tests in 7/6. His careless errors are of the forgetting labels, forgetting to do part of a problem or forgetting commas variety so it is obvious. I am not willing to back up for this. We just continue to work toward improving attention to detail while moving forward. Make sure the errors aren't careless before you back up and potentially end up with the same grades in a lower level.

 

I've tried this and it does nothing but frustrate me when the grades don't improve :) In fact the more we beat a dead horse, the more his grades drop! Once he achieves 80% on a test, if I stop for a few weeks to review and retake the SAME test, he's been known to drop to a D!

 

Brownie

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I'm surprised that your dd made it into Singapore 4 and can't handle the material in 6/5. IMO singapore moves much more quickly.

 

We went straight from 4A to 7/6. DS makes many careless errors and gets between an 80 and 95 on the tests in 7/6. His careless errors are of the forgetting labels, forgetting to do part of a problem or forgetting commas variety so it is obvious. I am not willing to back up for this. We just continue to work toward improving attention to detail while moving forward. Make sure the errors aren't careless before you back up and potentially end up with the same grades in a lower level.

 

I've tried this and it does nothing but frustrate me when the grades don't improve :) In fact the more we beat a dead horse, the more his grades drop! Once he achieves 80% on a test, if I stop for a few weeks to review and retake the SAME test, he's been known to drop to a D!

 

Brownie

 

I think you've misunderstood my question. She is currently in 7/6 not 6/5. Yes, Singapore moves much more quickly, which was part of the problem and why we switched. My standard for her is that between 85 and 100 is acceptable (above 90 is desirable), but below 85 is not. If it's for carelessness, that's one issue and we stay where we are and continue to deal with it. If it's because she's not understanding it fully, then it would indeed be "beating a dead horse" to continue in a level that's a bit too high right now. I'd rather back up and build a stronger foundation in that case. I have no doubt that she could easily handle 6/5. My question re: 6/5 is, based on her current scores, do we try testing out of the early parts of 6/5 if we do need to go back.

 

I'm looking for guidance on distinguishing between the careless and the conceptual. Honestly, I'm not willing to call even the careless errors "a dead horse" and accept them, much less incorrect multiplication of fractions, incorrect addition of decimals or ridiculous overestimation. I can easily handle the carelessness aspect of it by making it not worth her while to not pay attention. I've already been doing this in 7/6---she is getting much better at remembering to reduce fractions, add units, etc because she doesn't like the consequences when she doesn't and I've given her tools to help her try to avoid them (the checklist, for one). I didn't have questions because of that. It's the other sorts of errors that concern me and the general downward trend in her test scores. I've emailed Mr. Reed and hope to hear back with some advice tomorrow.

Edited by KarenNC
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I'd start at the beginning and just work through everything.

 

 

Do NOT allow her to skip any problems in her Saxon book. Don't. There are no extra problems in Saxon. The constant review is one of Saxon's strengths, and your dc will miss that if she's skipping problems. Also, concepts continue to be developed throughout the whole book, and if your dd skips any problems, she'll miss that, too.

 

I agree about not letting her skip any problems. I use to have my dd10 do only odd or even problems, or only ones I chose for her, because she was doing pretty well and seemed to grasp the concepts. After reading through a couple of Saxon threads, however, I now have her do every single problem. Her math scores are going up and she is making fewer mistakes in her work. It is really amazing.

 

I did start her in 6/5 by testing her until she scored less than 90% on a test, which I think was around lesson 30.

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I'll add one more vote for not skipping problems. To do so defeats the point of how each lesson is organized.

 

I would try to re-place her in the next book you choose. Take a few tests to get a feel for placement and compare the results with the subject matter covered to find her best place. Also, keep in mind that tests don't cover material from the previous 5 lessons, only material from all lessons prior to that (ie if you give a test scheduled for after lesson 20 it will only cover material from lessons 1-15). I've never looked deeply at a Singapore book but there may be a difference in how deeply a topic is covered so you may want to not just look at subject labels but also at problems for depth and difficulty issues.

 

I find that careless errors tend to be easily found by correcting problems or by my writing them on a whiteboard or paper following the students dictation on how to solve (I simply act a scribe so they can see everything neatly done and properly lined up). Foundation issues tend to show up under the same circumstances because they have a harder time explaining how to solve a problem.

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I find that careless errors tend to be easily found by correcting problems or by my writing them on a whiteboard or paper following the students dictation on how to solve (I simply act a scribe so they can see everything neatly done and properly lined up). Foundation issues tend to show up under the same circumstances because they have a harder time explaining how to solve a problem.

 

Excellent idea---thanks! She was indeed able to tell me how to properly do some of the problems she missed. Maybe it is more careless than otherwise. I didn't get a chance to get to the homeschool store on Friday, so I am going to wait to hear Mr. Reed's input as well before dropping back at this point.

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To give a better idea, her average in the problem sets (doing all 30 problems, but doesn't include the first 10 problem sets as I didn't start recording until 11) is 90.5 and ranges from 68 to 100 (five are below 85, one was a 68). This is not a straight downward trend, though. The poor grades (below 85) are sprinkled in among the good ones. I was willing to continue to work with it until we got to the horrible test result today. Am I overreacting?

 

Her test scores are mystifying me. Her average is 89.6 but the trend is sharply downward:

100, 89, 98, 85, 94, 85, 91, 75.

On the test with the 75 (today) she: multiplied incorrectly, lined up the decimals incorrectly for addition, borrowed in a time subtraction problem incorrectly, estimated incorrectly (answered that a good estimate of the product of 7000 and 4000 was 1 million!), in multiplying fractions multiplied the numerator and left the denominator static.

 

I already have her do every problem, and make her go back and redo the problems she misses to find the error, as well as assigning supplemental work in some areas. We work through all the practice problems together as well as the lesson.

 

I was told by the person at the homeschool store that the first 40 or so problems were review, the next 40 or so new material and the last 40 or so challenging. If she's doing this downward trend now, I'm concerned about continuing. That's why I'm thinking of dropping back a level. I'm worried that what I think are careless errors might actually be conceptual and the problem will just continue to build. Math is not her strongest subject. However, given her placement tests and performance, I don't know that I feel she will need all the review of 5/4 that comes at the beginning of 6/5, which is why I was thinking of having her test until she didn't get a 95 then starting the lessons. I don't want to end up with problems because she's bored, either.

 

It's challenging because I'm a math-oriented person and she is like her father, language arts all the way. I don't expect perfection, but I'm not going to settle for a low B or a C either because I picked a math program that is a bit more than she can handle now. She is a young 5th grader, with an August birthday, so she's 10 and a bit rather than closer to 11. Saxon is also a very different type of program for me, as we had done Singapore all the way through until now (and it was too fast-paced for her once we hit level 4).

 

YES...this is my son...it's a rollercoaster ride of grades...

 

I think this has a lot to do with there being so many different types of problems to work on each day...maybe too much "switching gears", if that makes sense.

 

But don't listen to me...we have our own math issues...we have had two weeks of switching back and forth between BCM and Saxon Algebra 1/2...I do believe we are going to just stick it out with BCM...my ds took 2 days to do Lesson 26 in Algebra 1/2...an hour for each half...oy...

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It can be difficult to tell if it is calculation or conceptual.

 

Back when hsers first started to use Saxon we came to the conclusion that notebooks needed to be set up as T notes. Basically, a vertical line about 2 inches from the read margin with answers on the right of the line and work done on the left of the line. I don't know if people still do it like that, but it's made the difference for us. All work is show beginning on the same line as the answer even if that means there are only 3 problems per page. They look something like this http://enlighteninglearnersweblog.com/blogs/media/blogs/b/00.gif and I see they are called Cornell notes now. Your dds errors are probably calculation at this point, so she needs a plan for using the right side of her paper to avoid those errors. For example, division problems should be done by turning the paper sideways in order to use the lines to line up the numbers.

 

She's right around the age where you can tell for certain if she's an average math student, bright or gifted in math. If she's average or even bright, you may still want to go back to 65 so that she will have extra time to really develop precision and care when doing math problems. That can't be understated. At that rate she would still be in pre-algebra in 7th, which is still early by some standards.

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When my older kids moved into the Saxon middle level texts, I realized that they didn't really understand what I meant when I said to check their work. I made up a little card with a list of things to check. It had items like:

 

Correct operation

Simplify fractions

Show units

Did you answer the question?

 

This helped them to be able to go over a problem and check common (for them) mistakes. You might try something like this.

 

You might also try using the problem solving work sheets that Saxon has for this level. Each problem has a little box with a grid. Plus the top of the first page has a section for checking off the parts of the lesson warm up. We've gone back and forth with using these as I felt my kids needed to tighten up the processes they used with their problem solving.

 

You would have a better feel for how things are going on a daily basis. But it looked a little like there was less of a downward trend rather than an outlier with this bad test. I remember a few concepts that we had to spend a week on before we were able to move on.

 

When you look at what she's gotten wrong across all the tests, is it the same set of mistakes? What about the supplemental problems in the back of the book? Would working through more problems of the type she is missing give her the fluency she needs or does she just not know what to do?

 

If I were moving a kid back to a previous book, I might be tempted to start from the beginning with the purpose of using those easier lessons to cement good practices like lining up problems correctly, showing work, showing units and clearly indicating the answer.

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YES...this is my son...it's a rollercoaster ride of grades...

 

I think this has a lot to do with there being so many different types of problems to work on each day...maybe too much "switching gears", if that makes sense.

 

But don't listen to me...we have our own math issues...we have had two weeks of switching back and forth between BCM and Saxon Algebra 1/2...I do believe we are going to just stick it out with BCM...my ds took 2 days to do Lesson 26 in Algebra 1/2...an hour for each half...oy...

 

I'll post the answer I get from Mr. Reed---maybe it'll be helpful to both of us.

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Thanks for the ideas on the notebook and on the answer sheets. We've been using a whiteboard for problem sets and notebook paper for tests. Something like one of those might prove to be a better solution.

 

I would consider her probably to be bright, but not highly gifted, in math. Her testing always shows quite a lag between her langauge skills and her math skills (including the CogAt, ITBS and Woodcock-Johnson, over the years). Still above grade level, but not close to her langauge/verbal areas.

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When my older kids moved into the Saxon middle level texts, I realized that they didn't really understand what I meant when I said to check their work. I made up a little card with a list of things to check. It had items like:

 

Correct operation

Simplify fractions

Show units

Did you answer the question?

 

This helped them to be able to go over a problem and check common (for them) mistakes. You might try something like this.

 

You might also try using the problem solving work sheets that Saxon has for this level. Each problem has a little box with a grid. Plus the top of the first page has a section for checking off the parts of the lesson warm up. We've gone back and forth with using these as I felt my kids needed to tighten up the processes they used with their problem solving.

 

You would have a better feel for how things are going on a daily basis. But it looked a little like there was less of a downward trend rather than an outlier with this bad test. I remember a few concepts that we had to spend a week on before we were able to move on.

 

When you look at what she's gotten wrong across all the tests, is it the same set of mistakes? What about the supplemental problems in the back of the book? Would working through more problems of the type she is missing give her the fluency she needs or does she just not know what to do?

 

If I were moving a kid back to a previous book, I might be tempted to start from the beginning with the purpose of using those easier lessons to cement good practices like lining up problems correctly, showing work, showing units and clearly indicating the answer.

 

I find myself saying something similar-usually about complete all parts of a question.

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OK, I spoke with Mr. Reed today. His suggestion for our situation:

drop back to 6/5, having her do each test until she gets less than 80 twice in a row, going over the questions she misses, then start the book at that point (dropping back 4-5 lessons), doing all the problem sets.

 

Don't grade homework, only tests, but grade like Atilla the Hun---no partial credit. If it has 3 parts and she misses one, the questions is all wrong. If she leaves off units, it's all wrong. Spend no more than 50 minutes per test. If her grade is less than 80, spend more time on those lessons that address the questions she missed. He said that he expects my daughter will do fine on the 6/5 tests until she gets to somewhere between 40 and 50 and then we start the book.

 

I was interested to note that he doesn't recommend doing the activity box unless the student particularly wants to do so. He said it was intended for teachers to use to get their classes settled down. He also said that doing all the practice problems was not necessary---they are only for concepts that the child does not understand from the lesson. He suggested that if you are in doubt that the child understands, have the child tell you how to work the problem. If they have trouble doing that, have them work it out on paper for you. If there are still issues, then do some of the practice problems.

 

I picked up 6/5 and will start trying this strategy in the morning. I'll be very interested to see how far she gets before we need to start the lessons.

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OK, I spoke with Mr. Reed today. His suggestion for our situation:

drop back to 6/5, having her do each test until she gets less than 80 twice in a row, going over the questions she misses, then start the book at that point (dropping back 4-5 lessons), doing all the problem sets.

 

Don't grade homework, only tests, but grade like Atilla the Hun---no partial credit. If it has 3 parts and she misses one, the questions is all wrong. If she leaves off units, it's all wrong. Spend no more than 50 minutes per test. If her grade is less than 80, spend more time on those lessons that address the questions she missed. He said that he expects my daughter will do fine on the 6/5 tests until she gets to somewhere between 40 and 50 and then we start the book.

 

I was interested to note that he doesn't recommend doing the activity box unless the student particularly wants to do so. He said it was intended for teachers to use to get their classes settled down. He also said that doing all the practice problems was not necessary---they are only for concepts that the child does not understand from the lesson. He suggested that if you are in doubt that the child understands, have the child tell you how to work the problem. If they have trouble doing that, have them work it out on paper for you. If there are still issues, then do some of the practice problems.

 

I picked up 6/5 and will start trying this strategy in the morning. I'll be very interested to see how far she gets before we need to start the lessons.

 

Thank you for sharing. Hopefully we'll be starting with Saxon (for Josh) next year.

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