s/o from Shanghai test thread...tell me about education in Finland

[Halcyon]

I am all ears :bigear::bigear:

[Corraleno]

The BBC did a recent story called Why Do Finland's Schools Get the Best Results?

 

Some interesting facts from the article:

 

Finnish kids don't start school until 7

The spend the fewest hours in school of any developed country

They study in a "relaxed and informal atmosphere"

Teaching is a prestigious career

There is a culture of reading with kids at home

Schooling is "free from political prescriptions"

 

They are the highest scoring non-Asian country every single year, and in some years have topped the lists.

 

Jackie

[mommaduck]

The BBC did a recent story called Why Do Finland's Schools Get the Best Results?

 

Some interesting facts from the article:

 

Finnish kids don't start school until 7

The spend the fewest hours in school of any developed country

They study in a "relaxed and informal atmosphere"

Teaching is a prestigious career

There is a culture of reading with kids at home

Schooling is "free from political prescriptions"

 

They are the highest scoring non-Asian country every single year, and in some years have topped the lists.

 

Jackie

 

And here we are pounding them earlier, with more tests, less time with parents, etc and they are failing...well, why don't we look at what WORKS! and get back to it?

[FaithManor]

Corraleno, Sounds good to me!

 

When ds attended kindergarten at a private school (his only year of not being homeschooled) his teacher decided to standardize test the kids. He scored in the bottom 25% in reading for k'ers across the nation, despite reading books that were on a 3rd and 4th grade reading level. He had "doodled" in the margins since he loved to draw. His teacher was quite upset that one of star pupils scored so low and that this would effect her "efficiency" rating. I told her, "Well, at least my son did the developmentally appropriate thing with his test." She was not amused but the principal, who let her do the testing but did not agree with it, laughed openly.

 

Faith

[cathmom]

My children's speech therapist grew up in Finland and has worked in the schools here - I should ask her what she thinks the differences are.

[justamouse]

And here we are pounding them earlier, with more tests, less time with parents, etc and they are failing...well, why don't we look at what WORKS! and get back to it?

:iagree:

 

For some reason, when something is going wrong, our first reaction is to apply it harder. It must not be working because we're not pushing it hard enough. Even in parenting we do this--the beatings will continue until morale improves!

 

We need to go in another direction.

 

here's some youtube vids on their success --the first is the BBC story which I watched

 

 

 

 

[Spy Car]

Don't kid yourselves, Finnish elementary schools may not start until age 7, but they have a system of outstanding Pre-schools and Kindergartens that are highly funded, and that most children attend. They do spend more time at "play" (more like our Kindergartens of yore) but there are also "academic" Kindergartens.

 

The schools also (gasp) put an emphasis on developing social behaviors in the very young, inculcating values of gender equality and the like.

 

And parents of Pre-K and Kinder aged children get an allowance from the State to stay home with their children (even though the children likely go to "school").

 

Finland is being spun as if it is proof of "better late than early" but the kids there are getting a very rich experience in the Pre-K and K years.

 

Bill

[LibraryLover]

Some of what we know about children in the US who do well in school:

 

1. Do not live in poverty

2. Have at least one parent with a college degree. The education of the mother (not the Dad) is found to be one of the most powerful indicators of future school 'success'

[justamouse]

Some of what we know about children in the US who do well in school:

 

1. Do not live in poverty

2. Have at least one parent with a college degree. The education of the mother (not the Dad) is found to be one of the most powerful indicators of future school 'success'

 

 

I wonder what the poverty percentages are in Finland in comparison to ours?

[Gratia271]

The BBC did a recent story called Why Do Finland's Schools Get the Best Results?

 

Some interesting facts from the article:

 

Finnish kids don't start school until 7

The spend the fewest hours in school of any developed country

They study in a "relaxed and informal atmosphere"

Teaching is a prestigious career

There is a culture of reading with kids at home

Schooling is "free from political prescriptions"

 

They are the highest scoring non-Asian country every single year, and in some years have topped the lists.

 

Jackie

 

This is precisely the environment we can provide our children via homeschooling. Given the current system in place in America, I don't think it can be accomplished in the schools.

 

Don't kid yourselves, Finnish elementary schools may not start until age 7, but they have a system of outstanding Pre-schools and Kindergartens that are highly funded, and that most children attend. They do spend more time at "play" (more like our Kindergartens of yore) but there are also "academic" Kindergartens.

 

The schools also (gasp) put an emphasis on developing social behaviors in the very young, inculcating values of gender equality and the like.

 

And parents of Pre-K and Kinder aged children get an allowance from the State to stay home with their children (even though the children likely go to "school").

 

Finland is being spun as if it is proof of "better late than early" but the kids there are getting a very rich experience in the Pre-K and K years.

 

Bill

 

Their culture as a whole values and promotes education, which is going to produce different results. That is the disconnect here in America.

[LibraryLover]

I personally would not mind living in FInland. It's cold and dark a lot of the time, however, and that would be difficult. ;) Would they even want me?

 

Finland *is* different from you & me, and they are obviously doing a lot right.

 

Finland has reported that 2.8% of children live in poverty, which is the lowest poverty rate in the world, outside of Denmark (about 2.5, I think I read. I'll check.)

 

By contrast, the US child poverty rate is over 22%.

 

And Bill is correct. Formal school does not begin until around 7, but the nursery schools and day care programs can begin in infancy. They are highly funded.

 

It has been said that spending more money doesn't matter, although Finland stats prove that not to be the case.

 

Finland also has the lowest college tuition of most any country in the world, and most of the women there attend college. (Their attendance outpaces men, as is true of most countries). I can't find it right now, but it's been reported that it's the women who score highest, and why it's test rankings are consistently high.

 

Finland has a population of 5 million people.

Edited December 10, 2010 by LibraryLover

[sbgrace]

Don't kid yourselves, Finnish elementary schools may not start until age 7, but they have a system of outstanding Pre-schools and Kindergartens that are highly funded, and that most children attend. They do spend more time at "play" (more like our Kindergartens of yore) but there are also "academic" Kindergartens.

 

The schools also (gasp) put an emphasis on developing social behaviors in the very young, inculcating values of gender equality and the like.

 

And parents of Pre-K and Kinder aged children get an allowance from the State to stay home with their children (even though the children likely go to "school").

 

Finland is being spun as if it is proof of "better late than early" but the kids there are getting a very rich experience in the Pre-K and K years.

 

Bill

 

Bill--do you have links on the information about finnish preschools--particularly the academic ones?

 

I did a lot of research when my kids were young and I was under the impression from Finnish produced materials and everything else I found that they actually actively discouraged academic work of any sort (reading, numbers, etc) before age approximately 7. I did find they had a very well planned and thought out nearly universal preschool (and babyhood etc.) program though that I think has a lot to do with their success. But the emphasis was entirely on play, outdoor time, social constructs, and what I'll call household type activities. Kids took active roles in setting the table for example. The preschools were set up to make relationships in terms of remaining with one teacher/carer, a home like environment, etc.

 

I'm wondering if I am remembering wrong or I missed something that you found. I had planned to share this information with someone at one point and though I will need to find my information again I want to make sure I don't misrepresent to her and your post makes me think I might. Particularly, I got the strong impression that they felt the lack of academic work at that level was very important to the success and that contradicts your information?

Edited December 10, 2010 by sbgrace

[FaithManor]

It will be interesting to hear Bill's response, but I will say that developmentally, even if the pre-schools do not do academic preparation, that what you described above is actually excellent brain training as it gets both hemispheres of the brain working together which strengthens the "corpus collosum"/connective tissue between hemispheres. A thick corpus collosum has been proven, neurologically, to be common amongst higher achievers and fairly thin amongst lower achievers. So, by removing kids from the TV, Computer, etc. and doing learning activities such as you describe, they may be giving these children a real leg up academically.

 

The typical American pre-school focuses so much on seat work that the necessary activities that would strengthen the cooporation between the two sides of the brain, does not occur. Believe it or not, feeding chickens, tossing hay, collecting eggs, sewing a nine patch quilt with mamma, learning to make bread, etc... all of those things that parents used to require of their kidlets before entering school at 7 or 8, were very, very good things in preparation of academics later on.

 

Faith

[Perry]

One factor is that Finnish is a highly phonetic language- one symbol, one sound. Learning to read Finnish is much easier than learning to read English, and they have far fewer problems with reading disabilities.

 

Of course, if American schools taught reading properly, we'd have far fewer problems too.

[sbgrace]

It will be interesting to hear Bill's response, but I will say that developmentally, even if the pre-schools do not do academic preparation, that what you described above is actually excellent brain training as it gets both hemispheres of the brain working together which strengthens the "corpus collosum"/connective tissue between hemispheres. A thick corpus collosum has been proven, neurologically, to be common amongst higher achievers and fairly thin amongst lower achievers. So, by removing kids from the TV, Computer, etc. and doing learning activities such as you describe, they may be giving these children a real leg up academically.

 

The typical American pre-school focuses so much on seat work that the necessary activities that would strengthen the cooporation between the two sides of the brain, does not occur. Believe it or not, feeding chickens, tossing hay, collecting eggs, sewing a nine patch quilt with mamma, learning to make bread, etc... all of those things that parents used to require of their kidlets before entering school at 7 or 8, were very, very good things in preparation of academics later on.

 

Faith

 

Yes, I agree. That is my point though--that it's much superior to what we do in preschool for brain development. The academic push in preschool kids in our country is actually inferior to what we could be doing. I found some wonderful programs that replicate similar things in the US in terms of expressly non-academic but very purposeful play and social curriculum and they have great success. They had great success in fact with kids most at risk. So that's what attracted me. I think we do it wrong here.

[Spy Car]

Bill--do you have links on the information about finnish preschools--particularly the academic ones?

 

I did a lot of research when my kids were young and I was under the impression from Finnish produced materials and everything else I found that they actually actively discouraged academic work of any sort (reading, numbers, etc) before age approximately 7. I did find they had a very well planned and thought out nearly universal preschool (and babyhood etc.) program though that I think has a lot to do with their success. But the emphasis was entirely on play, outdoor time, social constructs, and what I'll call household type activities. Kids took active roles in setting the table for example. The preschools were set up to make relationships in terms of remaining with one teacher/carer, a home like environment, etc.

 

I'm wondering if I am remembering wrong or I missed something that you found. I had planned to share this information with someone at one point and though I will need to find my information again I want to make sure I don't misrepresent to her and your post makes me think I might. Particularly, I got the strong impression that they felt the lack of academic work at that level was very important to the success and that contradicts your information?

 

I did a bit of reading on this when the test results were announced. My reading left a very different impression of early education in Finland than I got from the media (and this board).

 

I can link you to one saved source. The children are very engaged with rich experiences, and it is not just a "delay is better" type answer.

 

http://www.newamerica.net/blog/early-ed-watch/2008/how-finland-educates-youngest-children-9029

 

ETA: I know nothing about the group that hosts the linked article. But it was consistent with other articles I read on the Pre-K and Kindergarten schooling that typically talkes place before a child enter elementary school.

 

Bill

[Farrar]

 

Finland is being spun as if it is proof of "better late than early" but the kids there are getting a very rich experience in the Pre-K and K years.

 

 

I don't see those two things as mutually exclusive. It seems obvious to me that young kids should have rich educational experiences but also that there should be dramatically less pressure on them to perform and demonstrate their learning than for older kids. Also that the learning young children do should be rich, but focused on play and using activities like coloring (I know you like that, Bill) to develop small motor skills or games to develop thinking skills. To me, that kind of stuff is in line with the "better late than early" approach.

[justamouse]

 

Their culture as a whole values and promotes education, which is going to produce different results. That is the disconnect here in America.

 

I don't think it's a disconnect. Not at all. I think parents want it more than ANYTHING, but can't either PAY to get their kids in good schools or can't take the pay cut to do it themselves.

 

If you could watch the news here-where the raffles go on to get into the best inner city charter schools--parents KNOW that getting into THAT school is their kid's only hope-it's either that or the gangs. They cry when they don't get picked. They DO know. They're in a poverty stricken area where the schools are crap and they can't get out.

[Spy Car]

I don't see those two things as mutually exclusive. It seems obvious to me that young kids should have rich educational experiences but also that there should be dramatically less pressure on them to perform and demonstrate their learning than for older kids. Also that the learning young children do should be rich, but focused on play and using activities like coloring (I know you like that, Bill) to develop small motor skills or games to develop thinking skills. To me, that kind of stuff is in line with the "better late than early" approach.

 

As on many topics, I'm a Third Way kind of guy. I do believe there are many good ways to prepare children for their academic futures (and life generally) that have nothing at all to do with seat-work. A deeply enriched life where a child is interacting with nature, parents, other children, an the world around them is vital.

 

My son attended a non-academic coop nursery school, where the program was "developmental" and sounds very much like the kind of approach in Finland. Parents participated once a week in class so we always had 4 parents plus a full time teacher with 17 year of experience teaching Pre-school, a Masters Degree in Child Development, and 7 grown children of her own. It was non-academic, but boy was it stimulating. The kids had time to play, create their own games, activities they could join, everything one could hope for. These are the sorts of things that (from what I understand) are commonplace in Finland. And no "seat-work" outside a little rug-time to hear a story or sing a song, or time at a table to eat, draw, or do puzzles. There was no pressure and the children thrived.

 

At home we did "academics" but I tried to make it playful through the use of such things as Cuisenaire Rods, and if he had to watch some TV the Talking Letter Factory was better than other options.

 

I think there is a way to have both a rich developmental experience and have developmentally appropriate academics be part of that mix. My son delights too much in reading chapter books now (at 6) or learning math (to him a fun subject) for me to believe he would have been better off having been "delayed."

 

I think one can have their cake and eat it too. I understand it is possible to create rich non-academic experiences for children, and believe they are vital. But I fear that some children might be neglected or left to molder under the banner of "better than early." That is not what happens in Finland. And I have no beef with home educators who are out with their kids looking at polliwogs and getting muddy, and all the fun things there are to do with a young child.

 

Bill

[Britomart]

Finland has a population of 5 million people.

 

Wow. That's only a bit more than half the population of my county. No wonder they're able to be efficient. You've got to figure they have some favorable economies of scale, so to speak.

[Gratia271]

I don't think it's a disconnect. Not at all. I think parents want it more than ANYTHING, but can't either PAY to get their kids in good schools or can't take the pay cut to do it themselves.

 

If you could watch the news here-where the raffles go on to get into the best inner city charter schools--parents KNOW that getting into THAT school is their kid's only hope-it's either that or the gangs. They cry when they don't get picked. They DO know. They're in a poverty stricken area where the schools are crap and they can't get out.

 

I appreciate what you are saying. In contrast, what I witness daily is over-indulged youth who care nothing for anything but athletics and a life of ease. It really sickens me that they will likely forever lean on family wealth to support their lifestyles with no desire to develop their minds or to strive to make the world a better place. I dealt with this mentality all the time when I practiced law. It's too bad that we cannot give the money and resources to kids who desire education.

[Onceuponatime]

This was over 25 years ago, however....

 

When I was in 11th grade and taking precalculus (which we called something else), we had a Finnish exchange student in the class.

 

This happened to be the highest math class offered in the school at the time. I became friends with Nora and she informed me that in Finland she was in the 9th grade and had already had this class. Since it was the best our school offered, she had to take it again. She made straight A's with no effort at all. She was rightly very proud of her own country's educational superiority, and a very nice person. :001_smile:

[justamouse]

Finland has reported that 2.8% of children live in poverty, which is the lowest poverty rate in the world, outside of Denmark (about 2.5, I think I read. I'll check.)

 

By contrast, the US child poverty rate is over 22%.

 

And Bill is correct. Formal school does not begin until around 7, but the nursery schools and day care programs can begin in infancy. They are highly funded.

 

It has been said that spending more money doesn't matter, although Finland stats prove that not to be the case.

 

Finland also has the lowest college tuition of most any country in the world, and most of the women there attend college. (Their attendance outpaces men, as is true of most countries). I can't find it right now, but it's been reported that it's the women who score highest, and why it's test rankings are consistently high.

 

Finland has a population of 5 million people.

 

well, they're succeeding in many ways then and they're putting their money where their mouth is.

 

Low poverty

high support of preschools

low college tuition

 

Basically they're taking away the difficulties the lower classes are forced to negotiate in the US.

 

It will be interesting to hear Bill's response, but I will say that developmentally, even if the pre-schools do not do academic preparation, that what you described above is actually excellent brain training as it gets both hemispheres of the brain working together which strengthens the "corpus collosum"/connective tissue between hemispheres. A thick corpus collosum has been proven, neurologically, to be common amongst higher achievers and fairly thin amongst lower achievers. So, by removing kids from the TV, Computer, etc. and doing learning activities such as you describe, they may be giving these children a real leg up academically.

 

The typical American pre-school focuses so much on seat work that the necessary activities that would strengthen the cooporation between the two sides of the brain, does not occur. Believe it or not, feeding chickens, tossing hay, collecting eggs, sewing a nine patch quilt with mamma, learning to make bread, etc... all of those things that parents used to require of their kidlets before entering school at 7 or 8, were very, very good things in preparation of academics later on.

 

Faith

 

:iagree::iagree: Also, it's really nothing more than what an engaged parent would do-and being that Finland seems to pay a parent to stay home with their preschooler, there is no pressure on a parent to make a choice between providing or raising their small children

 

 

I think there is a way to have both a rich developmental experience and have developmentally appropriate academics be part of that mix. My son delights too much in reading chapter books now (at 6) or learning math (to him a fun subject) for me to believe he would have been better off having been "delayed."

 

Bill

 

My little guy is like yours. When he was very young I realized he was learning his sister's lessons. So I started him gently and he flourished. But, (and you may find this out as your little dude grows) he hit a maturity wall where he could go no further, and I had to idle the car while I waited for him to make the next leap. The idle time took away all the time I thought he had advanced himself. Granted, though, he's not gifted and perhaps your guy is. So, what I'm saying is that although he was able to do the work, he might have been better served in the long run by delaying him. And when you multiply that unknown y thirty children a class, perhaps the delay is better for all?

 

I appreciate what you are saying. In contrast, what I witness daily is over-indulged youth who care nothing for anything but athletics and a life of ease. It really sickens me that they will likely forever lean on family wealth to support their lifestyles with no desire to develop their minds or to strive to make the world a better place. I dealt with this mentality all the time when I practiced law. It's too bad that we cannot give the money and resources to kids who desire education.

 

Isn't this a class problem, then, not an educational one? I understand what you mean, I see that, too. But I see it in the higher classes that have the privilege of going to whatever schools their parent's want them too-and they obviously live in wealthier areas, not in regions where the schools are 'failing' (which I think most are --even so called good ones, but that's beside the point).

Edited December 10, 2010 by justamouse

[Susan in TN]

Wow. That's only a bit more than half the population of my county. No wonder they're able to be efficient. You've got to figure they have some favorable economies of scale, so to speak.

 

That's what I was thinking!

[Lucy in Australia]

I was interested in the reports on Finnish education, so I quizzed two Finnish friends who emigrated to live in Australia a few years ago. The overall idea I got was basically what Bill said: they may not do formal "schooling" until 7, but they are certainly learning. And when they do start real academics, they don't mess around. They teach the children very diligently, who, in turn, are expected to work hard and learn. And they read A LOT, from the time they learn to read right through to adulthood - I can't work out whether this is by choice or it's just expected of them so they all do it.

 

The two mothers I'm friends had their kids in public primary schools here and were tearing their hair out becaused they felt their children weren't learning enough. I told them they should homeschool, but obviously this was too radical for them; their kids are all in very good private high schools now :D

[Osmosis Mom]

Well, I'm from Denmark. Formal schooling does not begin till 7 and even then, school is bot a day care. You go to school 3-6 hours pr. day, depending on the grade and scheduling. After-school care is an option everywhere or children go home (no scare factor there as here...).

 

Kids are not expected to start reading before 2nd grade which is what I did without any pressure whatsoever from my teachers. One kid could already read when he entered our 2nd grade and that was a biggie. Kids stay with the same teacher from 1-9/10th grade. K has its own teacher and after 9th or 10th you move out or into highschool (academic or learning).

 

We have tracks for math and foreign languages from around grade 6 (don't recall the exact grade plus it might have changed). Only the really non-academic kids who are definitely not going on to academic high school choose the low level and even so we only had about 10% do that.

 

Daycare institutions and after school places are highly interactive and waldorfy. Kids are being read to (fairy tales have a long tradition), lots of hands-on projects, outings, role play, playmobil etc.

 

DK is always arguing over how to integrate their immigrant population; I am not sure how many make their way all the way up to cold Finland. The population there is a bit over 5 million and despite the recent influx of foreigners then of course it is a much more homogenous country that the US. That said, then I do think the US needs to get on the ball in order to take care of its citizens and non-educated immigrants (and citizens for that matter!).

[Carrie12345]

I have almost no knowledge of the overall system in Finland but, after a few genealogy emails exchanged with a Swedish Finn cousin, I got the impression that their education was much less country-centric than here in the states. Maybe that's just because they're Swedish Finns (attended/ing Swedish schools), or maybe it's just the family itself. They're 3 generations of scientists, all speak at least 4 languages (Swedish, Finnish, English, and German), and most travel the world for their jobs.

It's a bit intimidating to send my American family's little updates. ;)

[cathmom]

I have almost no knowledge of the overall system in Finland but, after a few genealogy emails exchanged with a Swedish Finn cousin, I got the impression that their education was much less country-centric than here in the states. Maybe that's just because they're Swedish Finns (attended/ing Swedish schools), or maybe it's just the family itself. They're 3 generations of scientists, all speak at least 4 languages (Swedish, Finnish, English, and German), and most travel the world for their jobs.

It's a bit intimidating to send my American family's little updates. ;)

 

Yeah, my boys' speech therapist speaks seven languages: Finnish, Swedish, English, Spanish, Estonian, Portuguese, and French, I think.

[jld]

That said, then I do think the US needs to get on the ball in order to take care of its citizens and non-educated immigrants (and citizens for that matter!).

 

I really think our country could do phenomenal things if we took care of all our citizens the way Finland and Denmark and the other Scandinavian countries take care of theirs. They have a heavy tax system, but they get something for their taxes, too. I hope this curiosity about Finland and its academic success gives conservatives something to think about.

[Audrey]

I really think our country could do phenomenal things if we took care of all our citizens the way Finland and Denmark and the other Scandinavian countries take care of theirs. They have a heavy tax system, but they get something for their taxes, too. I hope this curiosity about Finland and its academic success gives conservatives something to think about.

 

 

:lol: Oh, you dream big, don't you?

[justamouse]

:lol: Oh, you dream big, don't you?

 

somewhere, over the rainbow...

 

I do, too, but I'm deeply cynical that it can be done in the current political climate

[astrid]

I really think our country could do phenomenal things if we took care of all our citizens the way Finland and Denmark and the other Scandinavian countries take care of theirs. They have a heavy tax system, but they get something for their taxes, too. I hope this curiosity about Finland and its academic success gives conservatives something to think about.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

I've visited Finland several times, visiting my Finnish "sister," a girl who was an exchange student with my family during my senior year of high school in the '80's. Riitta and her family are wonderful, and many's the time we've wished that we lived there.

 

Sauna and sausages!

 

astrid

[jld]

:lol: Oh, you dream big, don't you?

 

Hope springs eternal, Audrey.;)

[Sahamamama]

I think there is a way to have both a rich developmental experience and have developmentally appropriate academics be part of that mix. My son delights too much in reading chapter books now (at 6) or learning math (to him a fun subject) for me to believe he would have been better off having been "delayed."

 

I think one can have their cake and eat it too. I understand it is possible to create rich non-academic experiences for children, and believe they are vital. But I fear that some children might be neglected or left to molder under the banner of "better than early." That is not what happens in Finland. And I have no beef with home educators who are out with their kids looking at polliwogs and getting muddy, and all the fun things there are to do with a young child.

 

Bill

 

Thank you, Bill, for posting this. This optimal balanced richness is what I've aimed at with my three young children. I say to myself, "Beth, there are so many wonderful things to do when you are three or four or five years old! What will we do today?"

 

It is like a smorgasbord. :D Free play in the morning, bath & breakfast, a few chores (They sweep! They fold laundry!), a bit of phonics and math, running around outside or going to the park, come in and wash up, have a healthy lunch, curl up with a stack of books for a snuggly read aloud, lie down for a two-hour nap.... My girls love all of this and more. They put so much energy into their day that they even enjoy nap time. :lol:

 

This is a normal day for my daughters. They are thriving. It was so good to hear someone say that early childhood learning can be about this balance.