Well if anyone wants to hear how our VT evaluation went today...

[PeterPan]

It's sort of a mixed bag. They don't feel like she's done (nor do I), but she's sort of at a wall, an impasse, where she can't make any more progress with her visual processing till the OT kicks in. I also think they're going too high up and wanting application stuff where she needs to build a whole FOUNDATION of visualization skills. So... anyone want to talk Seeing Stars, V/V, and IdeaChain? The OT, whom we saw after the VT, totally agreed with the VT. In fact the OT had said it first, as soon as she heard what they were working on, that dd was not ready for that and would hit a wall. And when I told her my idea about working on visualization, what should happen but she whips out V/V!!! Hahaha, told you we have a good OT, lol.

 

She has done the V/V workshops to learn the method and thought going with it straight made more sense. Looking at the materials, I think I'd rather have the V/V stuff for the theory and use IdeaChain for the everyday ease of implementation. V/V is just very open-ended. Am I crazy there? And what does Seeing Stars actually do? I need to go look at it. The VT doc said to look for something using symbols or the abstract so dd couldn't put it into word. The OT said just the opposite, that we need to WORK ON the language part of it, that the VT people are trying to take it to a higher level too soon. Go figure, ugh. Nothing like a little healthy contradiction, eh?

 

On the plus side, I'm terribly relieved that we're off the hook for VT for a while. That has been so cumbersome to be out of the house so many days each week. Would have been nice to have been DONE and graduated for Christmas, but oh well...

[merry gardens]

It's sort of a mixed bag. They don't feel like she's done (nor do I), but she's sort of at a wall, an impasse, where she can't make any more progress with her visual processing till the OT kicks in. I also think they're going too high up and wanting application stuff where she needs to build a whole FOUNDATION of visualization skills. So... anyone want to talk Seeing Stars, V/V, and IdeaChain? The OT, whom we saw after the VT, totally agreed with the VT. In fact the OT had said it first, as soon as she heard what they were working on, that dd was not ready for that and would hit a wall. And when I told her my idea about working on visualization, what should happen but she whips out V/V!!! Hahaha, told you we have a good OT, lol.

 

She has done the V/V workshops to learn the method and thought going with it straight made more sense. Looking at the materials, I think I'd rather have the V/V stuff for the theory and use IdeaChain for the everyday ease of implementation. V/V is just very open-ended. Am I crazy there? And what does Seeing Stars actually do? I need to go look at it. The VT doc said to look for something using symbols or the abstract so dd couldn't put it into word. The OT said just the opposite, that we need to WORK ON the language part of it, that the VT people are trying to take it to a higher level too soon. Go figure, ugh. Nothing like a little healthy contradiction, eh?

 

On the plus side, I'm terribly relieved that we're off the hook for VT for a while. That has been so cumbersome to be out of the house so many days each week. Would have been nice to have been DONE and graduated for Christmas, but oh well...

Very interesting. I really don't understand what all vision therapy entails, but I'm interested in learning more about it. I'm happy to discuss the Lindamood-Bell products and IdeaChain, but I don't understand how they fit in with vision therapy. :confused: They involve mostly activities to promote mental imagery, and I thought that vision therapy worked with the image that comes from the eyes.

[specialmama]

Sounds like you have a great OT Elizabeth. I get contradictory advice as well sometimes, and at other times the 2 opposing sides are actually saying the same thing, but one has a longer term vision than the other; one may be talking the end, the other the means iykwim. Perhaps your people are having a such a moment?

I ordered the V/V program with the teaching DVDs and the UPS site says it should arrive tomorrow. I'll be tagging along in this (and other) conversations pertaining to the Lindamood-Bell products.

I wish your dd progress and you the wisdom needed to know how to get there. :grouphug:

[PeterPan]

Merry, VT starts with how the eyes see, but once the eyes are physically seeing correctly you need to start working on the PROCESSING. It's the processing we hit a wall on. They want her to be able to VISUALIZE in order to improve her visual processing. All I know is what they tell me, lol. I'm an auditory, not visual, thinker as well, so the whole thing is mystifying to me. I'm just following what they say...

 

Karyn, , so you're going to be doing V/V with your 11 yo? Interesting! The printed materials I looked at were quite open-ended. I remember your posts about the videos, though that was just a glance. Are they instructional for *you* or do they teach the student? I guess that was the catch to me, as I looked at the materials. I'd rather just open a book and go at this point. It's sort of like SWR vs. AAS. I'd definitely like to know what you think of the dvd's.

 

Merry, I guess I'm not elaborating on the whole thing here. The OT says we have working memory issues that are holding back her ability to take that processing to the next level. They want her to visualize and process and hold lots of things in her mind while handling distractions, which she just can't. The OT will put out the fire on the sensory stuff, and we'll probably do IM and other things at some point. We're just sort of working through it. The basic point is we can't make any more VT progress at this time.

[FlutterbyMommy]

I would say OT, from what I have learned and experienced, is the first part of the process. We started VT well intio OT and have continued it alongside. In fact, the OT suggested VT prior to OT and w/o activating the vestibular system prior to VT work was like putting the cart before the horse for us.

 

Previous to doing VT homework or going VT we do vestibular exercises. That REALLY upped the scores and helped make progress. It also seemed to help the progress to "stick" for us.

 

We had a progress check-up Tuesday and it is going really well. I would have to say working on the processing through OT is probably a great idea!

 

I also will be listening in to learn more about the programs you mentioned. I am really interested in understanding them better. :lurk5:

[wapiti]

OhElizabeth, somewhere along the way I picked up a book you might be interested in re: visualizing

http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Seeing-Jeffrey-D-Wilhelm/dp/0439303095/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1291872308&sr=1-1

 

I read it a long time ago but I haven't put it to use yet. DD will be hs-ing soon, so we'll see :)

[PeterPan]

Flutter, we HAD to do VT first. Dd was having severe headaches with just 5 minutes of schoolwork. She was 10, almost 11, not 5, so I couldn't wait around for months of OT before starting VT. And in our case didn't NEED OT to make the bulk of the progress. Everyone is different. Some people need OT first, but some people can make a lot of progress with the VT alone. And although my dd did have some vestibular issues the OT is working on, they didn't hold back the body's ability to get the eyes to focus through VT. Some people have retained primitive reflexes and other things that would hold it back. What the OT is doing for us is chilling the sensory stuff so her working memory can improve. It's actually her working memory that is the issue I think. It's all sort of muffled to me. The VT just sort of mysteriously says wait a few months and let the OT kick in. I know, just from watching her work, that we've hit a wall. Whether the sensory alone is the cause, I don't know. In fact, when I asked the VT what I should be watching for to know dd was ready to come back for more VT, she couldn't say.

 

OT wears my dd out anyway. I know some people do it before a VT or speech session, because our OT has mentioned that. In our case it would just wear her out too much. She's low tone, so by the time she does all that work with her arms and fingers and whatnot and then swings in the chair and gets made half sick, she's usually ready for a nap, not more eye work, lol.

 

It was the VT that recommended OT to us in the first place, and it was the VT who said (when we started last spring) that they could make progress even without the OT being in place. The OT took quite a while to get into and even longer to get the evaluation completed. I just had no time to wait for that, not with the severity of her symptoms at the time. In fact, although we started pursuing OT at about the same time as we started VT, we were already completed with 3 months of VT and starting into the processing phase (convergence and focusing all better) by the time the OT had finished evaluating and was ready to begin therapy. And she said it would take several months of therapy to see a noticeable shift. I don't know if that's the norm or simply reflects where dd was at.

 

Wapiti, I'll go look at your book now. :)

[FlutterbyMommy]

I definetly understand and agree that kids are so different and each situation is unique. Even the therapists and professionals are unique in their strengths and weaknesses. I was just sharing our situation, which is why the "for us" was mentioned in my post.

 

I can't imagine seeing my DD in physical pain so soon into sudying. I can see why you felt compelled to seek VT help quickly. I agree that OT does take time to see a "shift." I have spoken to mothers at the clinic who saw changes very fast (within a few sessions). However most children take 6-12 months to see initial and noticable changes.

 

My DD has SPD, so we use OT to work on those sensory issues, which include the vestibular system. We just do a brief session of vestibular work (like 10 min. at home) before VT. The actual day of therapies I have on the same day and VT is actually the first appointment and OT is 2 hours later on that day.

 

The process learning about treatments, differences, etc. can be so frustrating! As I do figure things out and see progress, it is wonderful. Yet in the midst of weeding through everything, it can be so overwhelming! I am glad to learn so much here on this board.

[Mom0012]

Well, V/V is for increasing comprehension and Seeing Stars is for sight words, I believe. I thought your daughter was a voracious reader, though? Has she hit a wall at some point?

 

Lisa

[PeterPan]

Lisa, that's a really good question and is part of what I'm trying to sort out. I see in her the things IC mentions on their website (difficulty with summarizing, difficulty getting her thoughts out, etc.). We've done narrations for years, WWE, the whole nine yards, and there's always this not quite right about it. It's just always too hard. When I read the comments on IC's website about how visualization affects reading comprehension and hence school subjects, it just all clicked. The VT is saying she needs to work on visualization. Admittedly I don't know for sure if this is going to turn out to be what she needs. I'm just following the path. She fits the specs on the IC website, and the VT says she needs to work on visualization. Seems reasonable to me. I did sort of wonder about V/V. They have these story books that use short stories with detailed questions. They would be easy to implement, but I wasn't sure if they would actually DO the trick or not. I guess the only way to know is try, lol. The VT just said to watch that she doesn't work around the materials by finding ways to do it auditorily rather than with visualization.

[Stacy in NJ]

Both SS and VV are for children with reading disabilities. SS actually teaches reading, not visualization. My ds was tested at and received Lindamood-Bell tutoring for 2 years using the SS program. VV purpose is to strengthen reading comprehension and is typically used by kiddos with significant issues with understanding what they've read.

 

I honestly doubt either of these programs is appropriate for an 11 yo who has average abilities. I wouldn't invest significant dollars in this path.

 

JMO, Stacy

[Mom0012]

Lisa, that's a really good question and is part of what I'm trying to sort out. I see in her the things IC mentions on their website (difficulty with summarizing, difficulty getting her thoughts out, etc.). We've done narrations for years, WWE, the whole nine yards, and there's always this not quite right about it. It's just always too hard. When I read the comments on IC's website about how visualization affects reading comprehension and hence school subjects, it just all clicked. The VT is saying she needs to work on visualization. Admittedly I don't know for sure if this is going to turn out to be what she needs. I'm just following the path. She fits the specs on the IC website, and the VT says she needs to work on visualization. Seems reasonable to me. I did sort of wonder about V/V. They have these story books that use short stories with detailed questions. They would be easy to implement, but I wasn't sure if they would actually DO the trick or not. I guess the only way to know is try, lol. The VT just said to watch that she doesn't work around the materials by finding ways to do it auditorily rather than with visualization.

 

Okay, that makes sense. My son did 6 weeks of V/V at a LMB center to improve his comprehension when he was 5. It helped him tremendously in that area. If I had the money, I'd take him back and do it again now that he's 11, just to give him a boost. I did have high hopes that it would help him with his expressive language, but, if it did, it wasn't noticeable in the way the comprehension improvements were. I actually called LMB a few years ago to see if he could be helped with expressive language through V/V and how they would do that since it didn't seem to have that impact the first time. They said yes, they could help with expressive language and they would do it by having him do a lot of writing. We didn't have the funds at that point so we didn't wind up going back to LMB, but I wish we could have.

 

Two things have discouraged me from trying it myself at home: a) LMB claims their programs require intensity to succeed, i.e., spending an hour or two a day on them, and I don't have that kind of patience (even at the LMB centers, they change tutors every hour) and b) I'm not really sure how to implement the program in the way they would have in order to work on expressive language rather than receptive.

 

If I was going to do the program at home, I would definitely go with Ideachain. V/V is very open-ended and I'd really want the benefit of having the scripted material that Ideachain offers at least to start.

 

Honestly, I wish I had more patience and that we had more time so I could implement some of this for my son. He is doing very well, but he takes a long time to do his work and I get too frustrated and upset when I try to work with him too intensively on his areas of weakness. Good for you if you can do that and I bet you can.

 

Lisa

[peacefully]

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[FlutterbyMommy]

yllek, that is excellent information! I have been curious about what some of the Seeing Stars materials and process. It is also nice to hear how it works at home.

 

I know there are winter sessions LMB will be having near my area and I believe there is a school that sees students for these programs.

 

The workbook you mentioned at the end sounds useful as well!

[HeidiD]

Both SS and VV are for children with reading disabilities. SS actually teaches reading, not visualization. My ds was tested at and received Lindamood-Bell tutoring for 2 years using the SS program. VV purpose is to strengthen reading comprehension and is typically used by kiddos with significant issues with understanding what they've read.

 

I honestly doubt either of these programs is appropriate for an 11 yo who has average abilities. I wouldn't invest significant dollars in this path.

 

JMO, Stacy

 

 

:iagree:

[HeidiD]

I'm oversimplifying, obviously, but that's the very basic barebones structure. The repetition of it is going to kill me. :glare: I've debated getting the $400+ kit, but the bulk of the cost is for flashcards. Over two hundred dollars worth of flashcards. I'm sure this is against my religion somehow. :tongue_smilie:

 

Did you buy the CD's? The repetition would have killed me, too. :) The CD's do a lot of the work for you. Money well spent in our case.

 

The other book that I recommend is Kenneth Lane's Developing Ocular Motor and Visual Perceptual Skills: An Activity Workbook. There are 26 exercises there for visual memory alone, and there are many others for all facets of visual processing. He has another workbook on his website for visual motor work, which is essentially drawing shapes, both by copying and from memory.

 

:iagree:

 

I'm also thinking about art classes, just plain ol' painting. I don't think ds would have been able to do it before, but now I think he'd actually get something from it which would support visual perception, the visual-fine motor connection, and imagery.

 

Yes - I think it's sometimes easy to overlook some of the simple, natural, yet therapeutic activities. :)

 

A few years ago, I was reading about Waldorf, and started trying out some suggested activities with my kids (knitting, crocheting, beading, painting, etc.). My son, who at 7 years old could not get past Level A in Right Start Math because his visual processing issues made it impossible to even use an abacus, is now, at age 11, able to string hundreds of miniature beads on a sewing needle, and also knit. I never would have believed this was possible (and it didn't happen overnight, of course!) but these types of activities CAN really make a difference. :)

[PeterPan]

Yllek, thanks for explaining all that! S/S definitely does not sound like what we need. I've seen V/V in person, and I do think it would go where we need to go. I guess it's hard to explain, because people are so used to thinking of this only in terms of being remedial. She's NOT remedial. She can read LoTR and other such books with ease. But she totally shies away from non-fiction and resists textbooks. Basically anything without a comic attached goes in one eyeball and out the other. It's not shocking to me that she can read fiction well, since the fiction she prefers is so descriptive. But when you push her out of her comfort zone or into something less descriptive, she buckles again. I agree with the VT people that it all goes back to her visualization. Her natural strengths have been masking it. I've gotten her through all sorts of levels of textbooks and stuff. It's just it's always like pulling teeth. It's not how it should be. And frankly I'm just looking for options. This is the age where you really start to try to figure out what you're dealing with in a kid. I don't know what her limits are, because I haven't fixed the things we CAN fix. I'm trying to sort out serious issues of how I teach this girl junior high and high school science, history, etc., and I can't sort it out. It's nice to say teach her out of the box, but I have a toddler who has needs too! If I can improve her visualization skills to the point where textbook work with her is reasonable, then that would be helpful. What I'm uncertain of is how far she can get and whether the EFFORT needed to implement the methodology, even after she learns it, will be worth it. There's such a fine line between adapting and never helping them learn how to overcome themselves and beat their beast. My plan, at this point, is to do whatever we can for the next few months with visualization materials and then do a neuropsych evaluation. The OT says the np eval would help with implementing IM (interactive metronome).

 

Mercy my life is starting to feel like one big therapy pit! I think it's because I don't yet get the CONCEPT of visualization. I don't visualize things and survived through college just fine. However dd isn't going to, clearly.

 

Oh, I looked at that Kenneth Lane book. It looks very, very good! However they already did a LOT of that with her in VT. I'm not really sure if it would work toward our goal of improving visualization. The rest they already worked on.

[merry gardens]

I think it's because I don't yet get the CONCEPT of visualization. I don't visualize things and survived through college just fine. However dd isn't going to, clearly.

I didn't think I visualized either. Then, when I was in the middle of reading the V/V manual, I listened to someone tell a story. I realized about half way through that I was making a picture in my head, just not a very vibrant picture. That helped me recognize that I had made pictures like this before, for instance, when I read LotR many years ago.

 

Have you ever had the experience of seeing a movie after you'd already read the book and found that the actors, the location, etc. just didn't look the way you expected them to look? If you have had that experience, then that's probably because you had developed some type of picture of the characters or the scene.

 

Some of this seems to happen subconsciously with me. I'm primarily a word thinker. As I'm working through IC, I am developing my own ability to mentally visualize better too.

 

My children and I are slowly working our way through IdeaChain. We're definately not doing the intense work that LisaTheresa mentioned LMB clinics do. Even without the intensity, it's helping us. Before we started, my children seemed to be much better at visualizing than I am. That wasn't exactly their problem. They already could formed pictures in their heads, but this helps them to link pictures to words, and words with pictures--and do it faster. For us, what I read tonight in the IC lesson overview holds true, "Through these exercises the student begins to realize that words are important....Students at this point are more conscious of how the words they choose deliver meaning to you or to another person."

 

The recent threads and questions on V/V inspired me to pick up my V/V manual and look through it again. The first time I read it through, visualizing was almost foreign concept to me. It is getting late, and now I need to visualize myself going to bed.

[peacefully]

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[merry gardens]

Wow. That's really interesting that your dd reads difficult fiction well, but doesn't show the same level of comprehension with non-fiction. I don't mean to pry, but I hope you'll elaborate a bit.

Ooo! I get this! I'm not the op, but I can explain this from my point of view. I'm not a visual thinker, but good writers are often very visual writers. After learning about visualization, I remember that I "visualized" a bit as a middle school student with Tolkien's LofR. Tolkien goes into great detail describing the characters. Many writers of fiction do that, but Tolkien does it particularly well. In sharp contrast, the typical non-fiction textbook is not very descriptive at all.

I think SS would also help, but I'm just so daunted by how... well... tedious the whole process is. Nanci Bell wrote about how the SS process can be implemented along with an OG program, but I haven't figured out how I might dovetail the SS with AAS.

I'm using part of SS with an OG program. (Barton) Here's what we do. My son already could visualize letters, so I didn't spend time doing that with him. If a child can't do that, then SS teaches how to visualize letters. My child had already done lots of hands-on work with letters, and he's can think visually.

 

We use SS to help him move ono picturing common words that good readers know by sight. Seeing Stars calls those words "Star Words", and we work on one or two at a time. Look at the word. Identify which letters follow the phonics rules and which ones "cheat" or follow less common phonics rules. After looking at it, project the image of the word in your mind onto the wall and "sky write" it while saying the letter names. (Sky writing is tracing the imagined word with the arms to use large motor skills.)

 

A child that holds a really good visual image of the word can spell it both forwards and backwards. We don't do the backwards spelling often but that's a way to test if there's doubt that they are picturing words rather than spelling from memory, (since few memorize words backwards.) When you know something really well, you know it backwards and forwards.

 

It doesn't have to be as tedious at it might look at first. This is a techinique to use when you need it. If your child already has a large sight word vocabulary and he can already spell them, you don't have to do this for every common word. With my other children, I only use this technique for troublesome spelling words. My son whose reading concerns me the most needed to build a sight word vocabulary. Last year I wasn't concerned about his spelling nearly as much as I was worried that he wasn't reading. We built up a small sight word vocabulary without worrying if he could spell them. We're going back to work on spelling of those earlier words now. Doing it that way isn't the SS methods, but it tied in nicely using an OG program. Now that we've covered some of the spelling rules and phonics patterns more in depth (that we hadn't covered last year when I started integrating SS with O-G), the spelling is coming easier.

 

------------

I still don't quite understand what vision therapy is. :confused: Is what I've been doing with my son (using SS and IdeaChain) something that some people consider vision therapy?

Edited December 10, 2010 by merry gardens

[HeidiD]

Heidi - I did consider the cds, but ds's main issue is spelling, not reading. His reading is stellar, as far as I'm concerned. Like OhElizabeth's dd, my kid reads pretty well, despite having vision processing issues (and language processing disorder, and SPD, and borderline dyspraxia...:001_rolleyes::nopity:). He spells entirely by relying on his rather strong phonemic awareness skills, but those skills don't enable him to spell words like "truck" or "shell," because he can't remember spelling rules or visual patterns.

 

I though Seeing Stars was for spelling as well as reading? That's what we used the CD's for, anyway. Helps with those pesky sight words. :) My son has trouble remembering rules and patterns as well, so repetition seems to make the biggest difference. And yes, it's so very boring.:tongue_smilie:

 

Nanci Bell wrote about how the SS process can be implemented along with an OG program, but I haven't figured out how I might dovetail the SS with AAS.

 

I did the SS with Wilson, but didn't dovetail them, just did them separately each day.

[PeterPan]

Ok yllek, I broke down and bought the book!!! LOL

 

As far as the comprehension, I'm still sorting through it. The things she reads and enjoys, she generally understands well. However her narrations and pulling it together are pathetic. She utterly refuses many fiction works I try with her, and she shies away from non-fiction almost entirely. She can read the words just fine.

 

It's all so very subjective, for a long time I thought the problem was *me*, that maybe I wasn't picking the right books. Now I'm looking for reasons intrinsic to *her*.

[siloam]

 

Then they do the process with sight words. When they start to teach spelling, the student is supposed to analyze the word (including marking the words a la Spalding, I think), visualize it, and write it.

 

I'm oversimplifying, obviously, but that's the very basic barebones structure. The repetition of it is going to kill me. :glare: I've debated getting the $400+ kit, but the bulk of the cost is for flashcards. Over two hundred dollars worth of flashcards. I'm sure this is against my religion somehow. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I am modifying the program (but I modify EVERYTHING).

 

I don't teach sight words, I teach them phonetically and use think to spell concepts to cover the gap between how words are spelled and how they sound.

 

I also don't use any flashcards except for phonograms. With words I do one of two things. With my dd who has mild issues I have her write out the word on the white board first, then air write it and visualize it. For my ds who has auditory processing problems I sound it out for him on the first day, basically I dictate the sounds to him so he gets it right. Then he air writes it and visualizes it. After that first day he does it like my dd, and writes the word then visualizes. On the last day we cover the words I have them spell it backwards.

 

At this point I am also not doing the mark ups but we are still dealing with CVC words, so I don't have to make that decision yet. :D

 

It is a way to make the program work without buying the whole thing and without tons of flash cards.

 

BTW we also don't spend hours doing this. Honey Dew spends 10-15 mins a day on spelling/visualizing words and String Bean spends about 30 mins between covering phonograms, spelling and reading.

 

Heather

[siloam]

Yep I would second VV not SS. Both my oldest and myself are in the same boat. We both visualize well with fiction, and read well (though I am on the slow side-she is not) but both of use are more big picture thinkers. This gives is huge problems with science and history. I always did better with essay questions because I could communicate the big picture, but give me a text, even multiple choice, that covers details and I struggled.

 

VV focuses on developing mental pictures in detail (we lack that piece, sometimes even in fiction reading), and help us develop the ability with non-fiction subject matter.

 

BTW in the mean time I saw the greatest improvement in my oldest when she told a story that used the information she was reading. For example she was covering physics last year and told a story about Pokemon that had the attributes covered in the physics curriculum. Her scores went from not passing at all, to a C. Still not there but a step closer.

 

To date in reading VV I haven't found it that open ended. I think it will end up just as repetitive as SS. You have your questions you need to answer, which they recommend you put on 3x5 cards. Once you make sure they can visualize then it is just a matter of practice till it becomes 2nd nature. There is noting that genius about SS, and neither is there with VV IMO. I think that is what makes it feel so open ended. You keep feeling like you need to do more. Though I haven't finished reading it yet, so I could be wrong.

 

Heather

[peacefully]

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[PeterPan]

Yllek, you have in one fell swoop shifted my world! Ok, I'm trying not to be over-dramatic here, but what STUNNING ideas!! My dd would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE these things. This is exactly the methodology I have not done with her. I must take a long time to think through things. It's not that, it's that you get in your head one idea, and you stop seeing it from new angles. I KNEW she needed hands-on (serious craving here), and I knew she needed context to retain. But somehow in my mind it was this little progression: do the lesson, then do the activity. Or it was all activity with maybe a fuzz of topical reading to follow. But to use topics, engage their minds, fill them with pictures, BEFORE they read the text, now this is different!

 

I've got to chew on this. I'm stunningly embarrassed, because it makes such sense and seems like what people (KarenAnne, etc.) have been saying all along. I just didn't see it that way or WHY it would work to do it that way. She so thrives on research, doing, and new things each day. If *I* knew where it was going and she didn't, how hilarious would that be? Hehe. Yes, I'm going to have to chew on this. I agree with you that visualization can't be the full source of comprehension and retention, or those of us who DON'T visualize wouldn't have survived college, etc. I think it's the convergence of the DYSLEXIA with the poor visualization that creates the problem.

 

I had quite a few issues with LMB's speech on that video btw. She connects lack of visualization and autism, but then you have people like Temple G. who see in pictures. She points to statistics that only those with LARGE gaps between comprehension and whatnot will achieve strong success with V/V, but she doesn't stop to examine whether the issue is needing to move to a more mature methodology to improve results in the higher-functioning kids. There's no discussion of language-connected vs. abstract visualization. I mean we could just keep going on. All these things bug me, because they leave me unconfident that simply picking up V/V and using it would result in the type of change I'm looking for with dd. It's statistically not probable. I'm needing a modified version, and I still don't understand the issues well enough to do that. I'm starting to, but I'm not there yet. I still haven't reconciled the VT's direction to visualize abstractions with V/V's focus on language. My guess is we need to do both. What I don't know is whether you could visualize with abstractions and still get there. I think the language-only method of V/V is a weakness.

 

Well it's getting late. You've totally shaken my world. How does this apply to math?

[peacefully]

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[PeterPan]

I understand what you're saying about the drawing lessons! I had been thinking about that with her, without even making the connection that it would help visualization... She's such a good sculptor, so it surprises me that she (my dd) is not an equally good drawer. Sounds like we've now found the reason!

 

We did an exercise for VT where we had to mark each and every letter of words, to a certain speed and with increasingly small fonts. It got easier with practice, and I think that particular thing was what made the difference with her ability to notice the components of words, rather than just guessing. It totally retrained her brain. But we did this every day for, oh, maybe a month. Not fun.

 

Your Sousa book looks terrific! Y'all are just costing me too much these days, lol. The trouble is the learning curve is high. We only have our own experiences, and when we get someone who is outside the normal, we have to go back and learn. Do teachers learn these things in college? Do they sort of learn them but not have any clue how they actually pan out or how you really modify teaching to fit the situations?

 

Well thanks for costing me more money. I keep telling myself NOT to spend more money, and I keep on reversing that. :)

[PeterPan]

Hey Yllek, I just went to that math website you gave! What a neat place!! I LOVE the weekly review sheets with the word problems!! Thanks!!!! So how do *you* use them? Are you using them on-level to teach, below-level as review, or at the top of comfort level to push? As a supplement to something else? I'm just thinking through this...

[peacefully]

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[PeterPan]

I got away from the more hands-on approach once we hit that 4th grade-ish level of stuff, and now I find us needing to go back. There's just not quite enough connection made for her with doing it only with language. I've lost track, how old is your ds? We're doing a book called Light Action by Vicki Cobb that KarenAnne had recommended. She described it as deceptively simple, and it really is! We spent an hour and a half going through just one activity! I did it like you said to introduce the lit, doing the hands-on and THEN attempting to read the chapter explanations. So after we had DONE everything she was reading about, we read it together, one line at a time. Well scratch that, I handed it to her and told her to read, which resulted in nothing. THEN we started working through it together, line by line, lol. It's like if she can't visualize it immediately she just gives up! Also, I think there are little holes in the way she understands. So she gets those questions, finds a hitch in her understanding, and just stops, assuming the book is lousy, didn't explain it well enough (no one ever does to her mind), etc. Triple ugh. So we worked through it, line by line, visualizing both in our minds AND with the objects what was happening. Her questions were good and reasonable (she didn't understand the idea of light rays spreading), but is that NORMAL to have to work at it so much?

 

So that's what it will take to work her through non-fiction. I'm overwhelmed by that frankly. I mean we did it, but WOWSERS. Of course it's what I do for myself and it seems reasonable. It's just when you have to do it for someone else that it seems overwhelming.

 

Well I'm rambling. I LOVE that you're out of lurking. You should be. You have a lot to say that is worthwhile and different from the same old. :)

[peacefully]

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[FlutterbyMommy]

Dyslexia is moving target for me. I've dealt with dyslexia a lot, both professionally and personally (my dh is dyslexic), but lately, so many folks have defined the term in so many different ways, I don't know what to think about it anymore. :confused: I'm avoiding the D-word altogether when I can, and I'm just trying to tease apart where all the different processing issues (visual, auditory, language, motor, memory, etc.) that are involved in the reading and writing process.

 

:iagree:

 

 

I just have a couple questions from this excellent thread.

 

What is RIS?

 

If a child is able to do the basic visual math in RS B, do they have a visualizing problem or is it different when dealing with math rather than reading?

 

(Sorry if my questions are dim.)

[siloam]

:iagree:

 

 

I just have a couple questions from this excellent thread.

 

What is RIS?

 

If a child is able to do the basic visual math in RS B, do they have a visualizing problem or is it different when dealing with math rather than reading?

 

(Sorry if my questions are dim.)

Not dim at all! I have been hsing for 8 years and didn't follow what was referenced by RIS either.

 

My kids haven't needed more than what RS B provided. Now they still make miscellaneous errors like they do in reading, but I attribute that to processing problems and not the ability to visualize.

 

Heather

[peacefully]

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[PeterPan]

Where it shows up is when you ask the student to see the abacus in their mind and move the beads. That's visualization. My dd was fine with the manipulatives and pictorial representation, but she resisted trying to see the abacus in her mind. I didn't realize it was an indicator of anything more than preference or personality at the time.

 

And yes, RIS = Reading is Seeing. It was mentioned either in this thread or another thread I started recently, so it was the continuation of a discussion thought, not a common abbreviation.

[FlutterbyMommy]

Thanks for clarification on RIS. I looked at the abbreviation thread and did a search, but couldn't find it.

 

So far, it seems that DD can see and move beads in her mind. But the further we go it may be an issue.

 

Thanks again ladies, and sorry to trouble you with the clarification :001_smile:

[PeterPan]

Well see, there you go. She may be a visual processor and not even have these issues. :)