Jump to content

Menu

A short talk with a Chinese exchange student


Recommended Posts

This past week I had a little extra time to talk with the first mainland China exchange student I've seen at our school. He's easily the top academic student at our school even though he still needs his translator (machine) to figure some things out language-wise. I'm going to try to remember things more or less word for word and type it that way. For what it's worth, he's from a major city in China. We also have a bit of a rapport already, so this wasn't my first time talking to him in general. He's extremely polite and nice.

 

Me: So, how do you like it here in the US?

 

Him: It's nice.

 

Me: Can you be more specific? What do you like? What do you dislike?

 

Him: I like that everyone is so free here. There are wide open spaces, large houses, lots of room, and you can go anywhere you want to go. Your cities are nice. Your towns are nice.

 

Me: What do you like better in China?

 

Him: The shopping is better there. Here it's too sterile (looked the word up). The stores are all alike and too big. I like the markets. You can buy a lot more in the markets in China. But many things are cheaper here I think. Not food though. Food is cheaper and better in China.

 

Me: What made you decide to become an exchange student?

 

Him: My parents want me to learn English very well and they want me to go to University in the US. So I tried to be an exchange student. I won. [i'm not sure if he meant a lottery or academic win and didn't ask.]

 

Me: How are schools different?

 

Him: There are very few students in this school [mine] that would be in school in China. Kids need to study hard and there is a lot more work. If you talk in class you are punished [meaning talk off topic and out of context]. You would not be allowed to stay in school. No one wants to be punished as it would make their parents sad. We all study very hard. Here, no one studies. Many do not do work here. If that happened in China they would not be in school. Kids are very rude here. No one is rude in China. We also do not have sports in our school in China, but we do exercise in the morning. We do not change classes in China. The teachers come to us. We do not pick our classes in China. We just get what they give us.

 

Me: So which [school] do you like better?

 

Him: I like it here because you are more free. But I wish the students would study more and weren't so rude. It's like they don't care about their future. I don't understand it.

 

Me: Do you get to do things with your host parents?

 

Him: Oh yes, but I like to study. I want to get in to a good University and make my parents proud. Sports I don't care about so much. I like to travel and see places. You have a beautiful country. I like Washington DC.

 

Me: What do you want to major in at University?

 

Him: I'm going to be an engineer. That's what my parents want.

 

Me: Do you like it?

 

Him: [Looking at me puzzled] Yes, yes. I'm going to be an engineer. I'm good at math. I know I can do it. [He is GREAT at math, but he also does EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM in the Calc text and is not afraid to ask questions. He studies to be good.]

 

Me: Do you want to live in China or the US when you graduate?

 

Him: I don't know. You are so free here, but my parents are in China. Maybe they can come to the US.

 

Me: You'll do great in college!

 

Him: Thank you [while bowing his head slightly as is his custom].

 

I wish I had an hour to talk with him... next time I see him I'll ask more questions if I have time. He ALWAYS greets me when I see him in the hall. It's just so different from other exchange students, but a very pleasant difference. Usually we discuss math - his questions. This time I thought I'd ask my "usual" exchange student questions (more or less). His English is improving, but he still needed to translate some words.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you so much for this post. I cannot wait to share it with my son. Sushi studied Mandarin with a lovely woman from China for three years, and she said many of the same things the exchange student said. I have always felt sorry for her. She teaches at an exclusive, competitive private school here, but the kids still seem lazy. I always think it must frustrate her to see kids all day that have so much handed to them yet they don't make the effort to take advantage of it all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Him: There are very few students in this school [mine] that would be in school in China. Kids need to study hard and there is a lot more work. If you talk in class you are punished [meaning talk off topic and out of context]. You would not be allowed to stay in school.

 

This is key, I think. America has decided that education is a "right" rather than a "privilege" and therefore teachers must provide it to all, regardless of the student's participation, interest, effort, ability, or even respect.

 

America has also decided that teachers and schools must meet some sort of minimum standard. Therefore, the priority must be getting the students who are potentially able up to the minimum bar, without incentive to use precious resources on students who are far above the bar already.

 

Very different situations, equally challenging for a teacher.

Julie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for sharing this. Please do share other encounters. I just read this to my dd. She was born in China, and she is curious about what her life would be like if she still lived there.

 

I'll try to. I'm curious as to what a "typical" day or week would be like for him, so my next questions would be more along those lines.

 

That said, I don't know when I'll see him and have time to talk again. So far, I only see him in the hall and in a Calc class. Therefore, in order to "really" talk I need to be in for the Calc teacher AND finish our lesson before the end of class. His Calc teacher isn't out often, but took some time off to go hunting (PA is in their 2 week deer/rifle hunting season, but it ends this Saturday). We're on block scheduling, so his classes will change mid-Jan. I didn't ask him what else he was taking.

 

I do see him in the hall often and that's a little bit of what makes him different. He literally ALWAYS says hi ever since I met him and introduced myself. Most students (even most exchange students) don't. I don't know if that's "normal" or just "him." It was also a little bit difficult getting him to say anything negative about the US. I literally had to word the question, "What do you like better in China" as opposed to "what do you dislike here" to get the shopping bit. He was less reluctant to talk about the school/students. I think there's a bit of culture shock going on there.

 

I wish we could take our two systems and merge them - the dedication of China (as seen through him) with the freedom we have to take classes, etc.

 

In an earlier conversation (a couple of months ago) he told me he had gone to a football game. I asked him what he thought. All he said was, "cold." It was a cold night that night. We had had a pep rally in school the day of the game (homecoming). He liked the fact that kids took pride in their school and said there's nothing like that in China (not surprising to anyone I don't think). I'm not sure he was impressed overall with the pep rally, but again, it's really difficult to get him to say anything negative about here (and would have been moreso at that earlier time in our "relationship" if he wanted to be polite), so it's hard to say.

 

It was pretty eerie getting to talk to him this past time and hearing pretty much word for word what we'd (hive) had discussed on an earlier thread - even the part about his parents wanting him to learn English and his parents wanting him to be an engineer. However, let me add that there was absolutely NO hint of not wanting to do the same himself even when I asked. He literally seemed surprised that it might happen. I'm not 100% sure if he meant "parents would be sad" when talking about behavior at school or "parents would be mad." He said sad, so I'm going with that. It could have been a "mis-speak." His English is still somewhat choppy at times, but far, far better than my Chinese!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you so much for this post. I cannot wait to share it with my son. Sushi studied Mandarin with a lovely woman from China for three years, and she said many of the same things the exchange student said. I have always felt sorry for her. She teaches at an exclusive, competitive private school here, but the kids still seem lazy. I always think it must frustrate her to see kids all day that have so much handed to them yet they don't make the effort to take advantage of it all.

 

I've often thought that the best exchange program would be to take all of our kids here on a field trip to a country without free education and have them try to make a living as a teen there for a month or two (if it could be done safely). I honestly don't think kids here (or parents) realize what we have or what life could be like.

 

I saw yesterday that China topped those world tests for reading, science, and math. While I realize many of their students are not in school if they are trade bound, it doesn't surprise me that they took first in everything if this student is a "typical" example. He MIGHT not be due to "winning" an exchange student slot. I'm not sure. I shudder to think of the stories he'll take back with him, but I do know he's planning on staying for University next year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is key, I think. America has decided that education is a "right" rather than a "privilege" and therefore teachers must provide it to all, regardless of the student's participation, interest, effort, ability, or even respect.

 

America has also decided that teachers and schools must meet some sort of minimum standard. Therefore, the priority must be getting the students who are potentially able up to the minimum bar, without incentive to use precious resources on students who are far above the bar already.

 

Very different situations, equally challenging for a teacher.

Julie

 

:iagree: And I wish we could kick kids out (or let them drop out earlier) who didn't want to be there instead of insisting they stay. I would never do it by academic ability however - just behavior and effort. There are some really nice kids who just aren't as "gifted" academically who can and do benefit from more education.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This reminds me of a conversation I had with our violin teacher. He had a Chinese student who had moved here when she was in late elementary school. She was the top student at her school. She moved back to China, I think when she was in middle school or early high school and she was at the bottom of her class. She was so far behind. They moved back and she graduated at the top of her class here in America.

 

Christine

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found this to help allay the fears and insecurities a thread like this can enable in us Americans :D Yes, Asian students generally study harder and get better grades and certainly tend to achieve more in math and science---I know! But all is not lost following the American model of education and allowing our children also to be more diverse in educational choices.

 

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/curriculum/2009/10/chinese-american_scholar_on_am.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That photo of the children at the secondary school is spine-chilling to me, if I am to tell the truth.

 

 

I found this to help allay the fears and insecurities a thread like this can enable in us Americans :D Yes, Asian students generally study harder and get better grades and certainly tend to achieve more in math and science---I know! But all is not lost following the American model of education and allowing our children also to be more diverse in educational choices.

 

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/curriculum/2009/10/chinese-american_scholar_on_am.html

Edited by LibraryLover
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found this to help allay the fears and insecurities a thread like this can enable in us Americans :D Yes, Asian students generally study harder and get better grades and certainly tend to achieve more in math and science---I know! But all is not lost following the American model of education and allowing our children also to be more diverse in educational choices.

 

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/curriculum/2009/10/chinese-american_scholar_on_am.html

 

Thanks for that link! It puts a new picture in my mind when I think of him talking about exercise...

 

I still think somewhat of a mix of the two systems (and probably others) would be ideal, but I do note one big thing this student loved was the freedom here (school freedom to pick and choose courses based on likes/dislikes/goals).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for that link! It puts a new picture in my mind when I think of him talking about exercise...

 

I still think somewhat of a mix of the two systems (and probably others) would be ideal, but I do note one big thing this student loved was the freedom here (school freedom to pick and choose courses based on likes/dislikes/goals).

 

 

I know. It can be so intimidating to hear about achievements of students from other countries, and feel like we are a lost cause so to speak in the US. I always like to find articles, if I can, to allay those insecurities ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That photo of the children at the secondary school is spine-chilling to me, if I am to tell the truth.

 

same for me. Looks like the Borg.

 

these paras were especially interesting

 

"Clearly, American education has been moving toward authoritarianism," he writes, "letting the government dictate what and how students should learn and what schools should teach. This movement has been fueled mostly through fear—fear of threats from the Soviets, the Germans, the Japanese, the Koreans, the Chinese, and the Indians. The public, as any animal under threat would, has sought and accepted the action of a protector—the government."

 

 

Pretty strong language. Zhao goes on to praise what he sees as the strengths of the U.S. education system, such as its diversity, which he says breeds innovation and allows it to bring about and respond to changes in the American economy. He also describes American education as a system of "second chances," in which students who struggle initially have many chances to correct their course, seize upon a talent and prosper. (Presumably unlike other nations, where students are directed onto an academic track on the basis of test scores and kept there.) The United States needs to find ways to replicate these strengths, he says.

 

Edited by justamouse
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found this to help allay the fears and insecurities a thread like this can enable in us Americans :D Yes, Asian students generally study harder and get better grades and certainly tend to achieve more in math and science---I know! But all is not lost following the American model of education and allowing our children also to be more diverse in educational choices.

 

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/curriculum/2009/10/chinese-american_scholar_on_am.html

 

My husband, who's a principal of a school, has this book by Yong Zhao quoted in this article (Catching Up or Leading the Way), and I read it. It is a helpful reminder that many countries want American education, with its emphasis on the individual's strengths and creativity. In fact, Newsweek in its July 19, 2010 issue had a whole special report ("The Creativity Crisis") that because of No Child Left Behind Act, American creativity is declining. Creativity was the strength of American education.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks so much for posting your exchange with him. It was very interesting to read. It reminded me of a Japanese exchange student when I was in college. He was wonderful. I remember that he used to space his classes instead of taking them back to back (the way I did it ;) ) so in the time in between he would go around the campus and just talk to people so that he could improve his English. He was so outgoing and friendly (and brave IMO). He kept a notebook where he wrote down new English words that he had learned. I remember talking to him a lot. He was a great kid. I don't know where he ended up, but I'm sure it was somewhere good. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have neighbors that live in China and only come to the US once or twice a year on business. They have a little boy, who is 5, that they bring with them occasionally. She has asked that I work with him a bit when he is here. She is obsessed with him learning English without a Chinese accent. During the course of working with him she has been asking me a lot about homeschooling; about what I teach, how I customize each child's education, the freedom they have to pursue their own passions and interests, etc. She started to tell me about how the schools in China are and that she and many she knows hate it. There is NO opportunity for the dc to be individual at all. Even at home they have very little time to pursue interests because of the work load, even in grammar school. She personally knows 2 families whose dc have committed suicide because of the stress they are placed under to excel and to conform. One was 14 and the other was 11. Even her little boy is stressed now. She said that when he has to practice violin he cries and cries. I asked why she makes him do it and she said that she has no choice, all of the students in her sons K class have to do violin. She is trying to arrange a educational visa so her son can attend school here in starting next year. She does not want him going to school in China.

 

I feel so bad for some of those kids. I'm sure they have students with LD's. How on earth do those kids cope with the way they have things structured? It makes me very glad to be able to home school.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've often thought that the best exchange program would be to take all of our kids here on a field trip to a country without free education and have them try to make a living as a teen there for a month or two (if it could be done safely). I honestly don't think kids here (or parents) realize what we have or what life could be like.

 

I saw yesterday that China topped those world tests for reading, science, and math. While I realize many of their students are not in school if they are trade bound, it doesn't surprise me that they took first in everything if this student is a "typical" example. He MIGHT not be due to "winning" an exchange student slot. I'm not sure. I shudder to think of the stories he'll take back with him, but I do know he's planning on staying for University next year.

 

OK - when he said kids here "wouldn't be in school" if they were in China, he meant they would go on to trade school? I was wondering what they did. I thought at first that maybe they just wandered the streets uneducated. I know when I was teaching, there were lots of students I *wished* I could kick out of school entirely - LOL!

 

But maybe if kids weren't forced to go to school (here in the US), then it wouldn't be taken for granted.

 

Interesting...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll try to. I'm curious as to what a "typical" day or week would be like for him, so my next questions would be more along those lines.

 

That said, I don't know when I'll see him and have time to talk again. So far, I only see him in the hall and in a Calc class. Therefore, in order to "really" talk I need to be in for the Calc teacher AND finish our lesson before the end of class. His Calc teacher isn't out often, but took some time off to go hunting (PA is in their 2 week deer/rifle hunting season, but it ends this Saturday). We're on block scheduling, so his classes will change mid-Jan. I didn't ask him what else he was taking.

 

I do see him in the hall often and that's a little bit of what makes him different. He literally ALWAYS says hi ever since I met him and introduced myself. Most students (even most exchange students) don't. I don't know if that's "normal" or just "him." It was also a little bit difficult getting him to say anything negative about the US. I literally had to word the question, "What do you like better in China" as opposed to "what do you dislike here" to get the shopping bit. He was less reluctant to talk about the school/students. I think there's a bit of culture shock going on there.

 

I wish we could take our two systems and merge them - the dedication of China (as seen through him) with the freedom we have to take classes, etc.

 

In an earlier conversation (a couple of months ago) he told me he had gone to a football game. I asked him what he thought. All he said was, "cold." It was a cold night that night. We had had a pep rally in school the day of the game (homecoming). He liked the fact that kids took pride in their school and said there's nothing like that in China (not surprising to anyone I don't think). I'm not sure he was impressed overall with the pep rally, but again, it's really difficult to get him to say anything negative about here (and would have been moreso at that earlier time in our "relationship" if he wanted to be polite), so it's hard to say.

 

It was pretty eerie getting to talk to him this past time and hearing pretty much word for word what we'd (hive) had discussed on an earlier thread - even the part about his parents wanting him to learn English and his parents wanting him to be an engineer. However, let me add that there was absolutely NO hint of not wanting to do the same himself even when I asked. He literally seemed surprised that it might happen. I'm not 100% sure if he meant "parents would be sad" when talking about behavior at school or "parents would be mad." He said sad, so I'm going with that. It could have been a "mis-speak." His English is still somewhat choppy at times, but far, far better than my Chinese!

 

Hi, Creekland. About the habit of not speaking negatively . . . my travels to China and interactions with friends and coworkers over there opened my eyes and ears to "negative speak" as being against the culture. Well brought up Chinese are taught to not saying anything negative unless it's about themselves or their children. For instance, it is polite for them to say negative things about themselves or their children when faced with compliments, but it is not polite to express negative thoughts or feelings about other people or situations. Typically, when you encounter a blank look, silence, or embarrassment, it's because they do not wish to say something bad about someone or something. The same thing applies to "no" answers in the case of invitations, favors, etc. Most will simply ignore the request rather than reply with a no. Interestingly, I have a caucasian friend here that is the exact same way, and I joke that she must have been brought up in China. I, personally, would rather hear a no than be left hanging, but to each his own.

 

Oh, and, yes, pleasing the parents stems from centuries. The Cultural Revolution tried to stamp that trait out, but it failed in the longterm. I often wonder if my high-spirited little girl would have had her passionately expressive language skills stamped right out of her if life had allowed her to stay in her birth country.

 

I'll keep my fingers crossed that the Calc teacher goes to Disney World or on a cruise soon! :001_smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Him: I like it here because you are more free. But I wish the students would study more and weren't so rude. It's like they don't care about their future. I don't understand it.

QUOTE]

 

The above is what really struck me. Why are American kids so rude? Seriously. My 16 has been practically HUGGED by adults when he looks them in the eye and shakes their hand. Teenagers hardly acknowledge adults anymore, let alone act with respect.

Why is partying and FB and txting more important than studying anymore?

Lots of kid are saying they are txting and FB while studying but the research is in. Multi-tasking doesn't work. Those who do shortchange all that they are doing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK - when he said kids here "wouldn't be in school" if they were in China, he meant they would go on to trade school? I was wondering what they did. I thought at first that maybe they just wandered the streets uneducated. I know when I was teaching, there were lots of students I *wished* I could kick out of school entirely - LOL!

 

But maybe if kids weren't forced to go to school (here in the US), then it wouldn't be taken for granted.

 

Interesting...

 

I'm not 100% what he meant nor if he knew what would happen to those kids. I'll have to ask what happens to kids who don't stay in school or aren't allowed to stay. I wonder if there even are any at the high school level or if they've all been weeded out at a younger age?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She started to tell me about how the schools in China are and that she and many she knows hate it. There is NO opportunity for the dc to be individual at all. Even at home they have very little time to pursue interests because of the work load, even in grammar school. She personally knows 2 families whose dc have committed suicide because of the stress they are placed under to excel and to conform. One was 14 and the other was 11. Even her little boy is stressed now. She said that when he has to practice violin he cries and cries. I asked why she makes him do it and she said that she has no choice, all of the students in her sons K class have to do violin.

 

That's really sad. I can see why he prefers it here overall. It must be a huge stress relief for a little bit, and he'll be staying for University too if I understood him correctly, so perhaps now he's done with the Chinese school system?

 

I would never want to pressure a kid so much that they even think about suicide. (My youngest is back in school due to being suicidal DUE to homeschooling in his eyes. It wasn't worth homeschooling to us if we lost our son, even if the pressure he imagined wasn't real.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi, Creekland. About the habit of not speaking negatively . . . my travels to China and interactions with friends and coworkers over there opened my eyes and ears to "negative speak" as being against the culture. Well brought up Chinese are taught to not saying anything negative unless it's about themselves or their children. For instance, it is polite for them to say negative things about themselves or their children when faced with compliments, but it is not polite to express negative thoughts or feelings about other people or situations. Typically, when you encounter a blank look, silence, or embarrassment, it's because they do not wish to say something bad about someone or something. The same thing applies to "no" answers in the case of invitations, favors, etc. Most will simply ignore the request rather than reply with a no. Interestingly, I have a caucasian friend here that is the exact same way, and I joke that she must have been brought up in China. I, personally, would rather hear a no than be left hanging, but to each his own.

 

Oh, and, yes, pleasing the parents stems from centuries. The Cultural Revolution tried to stamp that trait out, but it failed in the longterm. I often wonder if my high-spirited little girl would have had her passionately expressive language skills stamped right out of her if life had allowed her to stay in her birth country.

 

I'll keep my fingers crossed that the Calc teacher goes to Disney World or on a cruise soon! :001_smile:

 

That's interesting - and good to know for any future conversations. Thanks for sharing!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Him: I like it here because you are more free. But I wish the students would study more and weren't so rude. It's like they don't care about their future. I don't understand it.

QUOTE]

 

The above is what really struck me. Why are American kids so rude? Seriously. My 16 has been practically HUGGED by adults when he looks them in the eye and shakes their hand. Teenagers hardly acknowledge adults anymore, let alone act with respect.

Why is partying and FB and txting more important than studying anymore?

Lots of kid are saying they are txting and FB while studying but the research is in. Multi-tasking doesn't work. Those who do shortchange all that they are doing.

 

There are some kids in school that are super nice. They aren't all rude. However, the rude ones are louder and easier to pick out. Therefore, I bet they give him major culture shock...

 

I think the reason rude-ness is more accepted now is due to media making it that way, but that's just my personal opinion. I know I far prefer the nicer kids and will recommend a less-talented academic "nice" kid over a more-talented academic "rude" one any day when I get asked for job recommendations and the like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not going to say some students are not rude...but i also wonder if asking direct questions, or engaging in discussion can be interpreted as rudeness by students unfamiliar with that sort of teacher/student exchange/relationsip.

 

I am assuming that a Chinese exchange student is probably in 'AP' classes, where, at least here in MA, you would find the most serious, most dedicated students who do not want to anger their teachers.

 

If one is from a culture where the teachers talk and the students listen/take notes, a less hierarchical/dogmatic exchange might seem rude.

Edited by LibraryLover
Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK - when he said kids here "wouldn't be in school" if they were in China, he meant they would go on to trade school? I was wondering what they did. I thought at first that maybe they just wandered the streets uneducated. I know when I was teaching, there were lots of students I *wished* I could kick out of school entirely - LOL!

 

But maybe if kids weren't forced to go to school (here in the US), then it wouldn't be taken for granted.

 

Interesting...

 

I read in Wuhu Diary: On Taking My Adopted Daughter Back to Her Hometown in China, education in China is not free, nor (I believe) compulsory. If your parents cannot afford tuition, you don't go to school. If you don't perform, it is likely that you will drop out of school (or maybe be kicked out?).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read in Wuhu Diary: On Taking My Adopted Daughter Back to Her Hometown in China, education in China is not free, nor (I believe) compulsory. If your parents cannot afford tuition, you don't go to school. If you don't perform, it is likely that you will drop out of school (or maybe be kicked out?).

 

However, it's not compulsory for as many years as we would expect in the West. In addition, given the size and complexity of the country - and the huge amount of internal migration - the law and the reality will not be identical.

 

Laura

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not going to say some students are not rude...but i also wonder if asking direct questions, or engaging in discussion can be interpreted as rudeness by students unfamiliar with that sort of teacher/student exchange/relationsip.

 

I am assuming that a Chinese exchange student is probably in 'AP' classes, where, at least here in MA, you would find the most serious, most dedicated students who do not want to anger their teachers.

 

If one is from a culture where the teachers talk and the students listen/take notes, a less hierarchical/dogmatic exchange might seem rude.

 

I think it would have been earlier in the year when he was still "newer" to our American style. I can sense the difference between the time when I asked him about the football game and our last conversation. However, he has become Americanized a bit in that aspect. He talks with many of his teachers now and seems to enjoy it. I should also note that "I" talk with many of the students whenever we have extra time - asking them about classes, college, or post high school plans, etc. I don't just single out exchange students. :D

 

Our school does not offer AP classes, but his Calc class is a higher level class and has good students in it. It will depend on his other classes as to the behavior of the students. Many upper level classes have "serious" students in them, but it can still be variable. We have one student who has a behavioral IEP to where teachers can't do anything of substance to correct his behavior. It bugs everyone and we're not sure it's necessary as his behavior before the "freedom" was significantly better than it is now - his grades were better then too. He's failing ALL of his classes now, but still can't be dismissed. But it is what it is. I don't think that guy is in this exchange student's classes though. I've been in three of his four classes, so only one could overlap - this semester. Who knows about next semester? Then there's the hall... If he's used to a super strict school, the hall behavior of many could really be culture shock and considered rude.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read in Wuhu Diary: On Taking My Adopted Daughter Back to Her Hometown in China, education in China is not free, nor (I believe) compulsory. If your parents cannot afford tuition, you don't go to school. If you don't perform, it is likely that you will drop out of school (or maybe be kicked out?).

 

That would explain the high test scores in Shanghai.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That would explain the high test scores in Shanghai.

 

So essentially, when the U.S. government makes attempts to bring American students' test scores up to par with the Asian countries' test scores, it's really comparing apples and oranges. The U.S. is trying to raise the bar (test scores) for ALL students, which isn't possible, whereas the Asian students' test scores to which the U.S. is comparing only include a certain scholarly group of students. Am I understanding that correctly?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So essentially, when the U.S. government makes attempts to bring American students' test scores up to par with the Asian countries' test scores, it's really comparing apples and oranges. The U.S. is trying to raise the bar (test scores) for ALL students, which isn't possible, whereas the Asian students' test scores to which the U.S. is comparing only include a certain scholarly group of students. Am I understanding that correctly?

 

Wouldn't that depend on the age in question? As Laura pointed out, education is compulsory in China, just not for as long as in most Western countries.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So essentially, when the U.S. government makes attempts to bring American students' test scores up to par with the Asian countries' test scores, it's really comparing apples and oranges. The U.S. is trying to raise the bar (test scores) for ALL students, which isn't possible, whereas the Asian students' test scores to which the U.S. is comparing only include a certain scholarly group of students. Am I understanding that correctly?

 

In some cases it's a question of wealth, but different countries also have different school leaving ages.

 

In the UK it is legal to leave school at 16 and there are school leaving exams (which take the place of a transcript) at that stage. The age is being gradually increased to 18 over the next few years. It means that less academic/less wealthy children will currently leave school at sixteen. There has been government financial support for less well off students to stay on to 18, but that is being scrapped. If you don't do well in the exams at sixteen you either leave school or stay in school/go to a college to specialise in less academic learning.

 

In China, compulsory schooling is from age 6 to 15, although this will not be followed in less developed areas of the countryside. As far as I recall, there is also an exam at the end of middle school which you have to pass to enter high school - if you have been to a middle-of-nowhere useless school, you may well not pass that exam and therefore not be able to go on to high school. So it's a mishmash of wealth/social opportunity/scholarly aptitude.

 

Does the US include high school dropouts in its international testing?

 

Laura

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does the US include high school dropouts in its international testing?

 

Laura

 

I don't know how the US figures out who is doing the testing for international tests. Hopefully they come from top schools.

 

I can say to be a high school dropout in our state one has to be 17 if they have their parent's permission and 18 without it.

 

We have many here who are just killing time (in their eyes) until they are old enough and they still get tested in the meantime with state and national testing. Many like to make pretty pictures with their opscans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So essentially, when the U.S. government makes attempts to bring American students' test scores up to par with the Asian countries' test scores, it's really comparing apples and oranges. The U.S. is trying to raise the bar (test scores) for ALL students, which isn't possible, whereas the Asian students' test scores to which the U.S. is comparing only include a certain scholarly group of students. Am I understanding that correctly?

 

Yes and No. i've seen sub-reports where they compare our top students to their top students.....our top students are testing below their average students. That's not to say the test is a good test and measures what we want it to measure or what we think it measures, but that's the data.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If anyone is interested in the differences between American and Asian schools, I'm reading a book now that you'd probably find interesting.

 

It is called "The Learning Gap: Why Our Schools are Failing and What We Can Learn From Japanese and Chinese Education," by Harold Stevenson and James Stigler.

 

I'm liking it a lot.

 

It's a pretty short read, and not only compares the education, but it explains *why* it is so different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi, Creekland. About the habit of not speaking negatively . . . my travels to China and interactions with friends and coworkers over there opened my eyes and ears to "negative speak" as being against the culture. Well brought up Chinese are taught to not saying anything negative unless it's about themselves or their children. For instance, it is polite for them to say negative things about themselves or their children when faced with compliments, but it is not polite to express negative thoughts or feelings about other people or situations. Typically, when you encounter a blank look, silence, or embarrassment, it's because they do not wish to say something bad about someone or something. The same thing applies to "no" answers in the case of invitations, favors, etc. Most will simply ignore the request rather than reply with a no. Interestingly, I have a caucasian friend here that is the exact same way, and I joke that she must have been brought up in China. I, personally, would rather hear a no than be left hanging, but to each his own.

 

Oh, and, yes, pleasing the parents stems from centuries. The Cultural Revolution tried to stamp that trait out, but it failed in the longterm. I often wonder if my high-spirited little girl would have had her passionately expressive language skills stamped right out of her if life had allowed her to stay in her birth country.

 

I'll keep my fingers crossed that the Calc teacher goes to Disney World or on a cruise soon! :001_smile:

 

I found this very interesting. My dd has a ballet class with a Chinese girl. She is so sweet,. If anyone compliments her, she says something negative about herself. As a matter of fact, we notice that she is always saying something negative about herself, but never anyone else. Anyway, this explanation helps us to understand her. Thank you!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If anyone is interested in the differences between American and Asian schools, I'm reading a book now that you'd probably find interesting.

 

It is called "The Learning Gap: Why Our Schools are Failing and What We Can Learn From Japanese and Chinese Education," by Harold Stevenson and James Stigler.

 

I'm liking it a lot.

 

It's a pretty short read, and not only compares the education, but it explains *why* it is so different.

 

Here's a review from Amazon on this book:

" 5.0 out of 5 stars How East Asian (but not U.S.) Education Works, June 5, 2000

By

psychephile - See all my reviews

 

 

This review is from: Learning Gap: Why Our Schools Are Failing and What We Can Learn from Japanese and Chinese Education (Paperback)

As early as first grade, average East Asian children routinely outperform the best American children on every sort of test of mathematical knowledge. And-across the learning spectrum-American children not only fail to catch up, they fall further behind their East Asian peers in every year after first grade. As Stevenson and Stigler (S&S) note, this learning gap is not a matter of money, but can be seen no matter the amount or source (public or private) of funding. If money is not the cause of the learning gap, what is? Genetics? TV? Class sizes? Not so, show S&S. In this highly-readable, jargon-free book, S&S show that the fundamental source of the learning gap is *cultural*. That is, whereas East Asian educators, parents, and children believe that math success comes from a long-term effort to acquire a mathematical system of knowledge, their American counterparts believe that that success stems from innate math-smarts repetitively exposed to a set of math skills. These different beliefs, S&S show, result in sterotype-exploding differences in student motivation, teaching practices and teaching support, and parental standards and expectations. If you think that improving American schools can come from looking at successes within U.S. borders, then read this book and prepare to be amazed! "

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We just watched 2 Million Minutes. (My review -- vaguely interesting but not worth spending a lot of time or money on getting...)

 

They profiled two bright kids from the US who weren't overly driven and contrasted them with two kids from other countries, China and India. What I found interesting is that the girl from China wasn't only doing very well in school, she was also doing quite well in violin. The film seemed to imply that she was just your average girl from China. All Chinese kids do this, etc, etc -- but at one point in the film, they mentioned that this girl was studying with one of the top violinists in China. Um, ok, so is the implication that ALL violin students in China study with violin masters? How in the world could that be? There wouldn't be enough "quality" teachers to go around.

 

The film lost me right there. They obviously weren't comparing statistically similar kids from the 3 countries.

 

For myself, I do know kids here in the US who are just as impressive as the kids profiled from China in this film -- but the high achieving kids from the US didn't make it into this film. What they got instead were just bright US kids who are doing well in school but not exceptionally so, who didn't have very interesting hobbies or aspirations, and then contrasted them to what they called "average" Chinese kids -- when the Chinese kids were obviously in no way representative of the population as a whole (see my comment about violin teachers above.)

 

There seems to a little industry that does business in bashing US kids.

 

Another point -- folks I know who have spent time in China seem to think the Chinese kids know a lot of stuff about very little -- they may know a lot about physics, for example, because that's the track they are on, but virtually nothing about history, geography, literature, or even how to write. I haven't been to China and observed this myself, but it is something that should maybe be considered when comparing test scores at the high school level. Are all kids in China tested in all subjects? Or just in the subjects they are concentrating on? Does concentration begin much earlier?

 

And do some areas of China exclude many students test scores? Does it vary by region? In the US, I believe this has been an issue in comparing test scores between schools and between states. My understanding is also that this is the reason why NCLB requires that ALL kids test scores get reported. If China is going the route of excluding kids who aren't doing well (learning disabilities etc) while the US is going toward putting all student scores into the average, it would make perfect sense that some areas of China might score quite a bit higher than the US.

 

And I don't think we'd know -- things may vary widely even between schools in China. So someone's experience in one part of China might have no bearing on test scores in another part of China.

 

As an example, Texas' test scores were increasing remarkably a few years back. It later came out that a lot of this increase was due to excluding the low performers in various ways. Here's what I found on a quick search for the increase in Texas' test scores:

" Haney (2000) provides evidence that exclusion of students with disabilities increased in Texas while decreasing in the nation, and Texas also showed an increase over time in the percentage of students dropping out of school and being held back. All of these factors would have the effect of producing a gain in average test scores that overestimates actual changes in student performance."

Edited by flyingiguana
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know anything about education in China itself - but I know that there is a achievement gap between Asian and white students in the US which can not be blamed on different schools or bias in selecting students to be compared.

(I quickly looked up one set of data from CA; there are plenty other stats which I don't have time to dig up):

http://www.cde.ca.gov/eo/in/se/agfactsheet.asp

 

On average, the Asian students outperform the white students, both in socio-economic disanvantaged and not disadvantaged groups.

 

If we assume that there are no underlying genetic differences making the Asian kids more intelligent, the conclusion must be that the reasons are cultural ( things like family structure, and work ethic will play a role).

 

Comparisons between Asian and white students IN the US should eliminate the things you criticized about the movie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

There seems to a little industry that does business in bashing US kids.

 

 

 

:iagree: The US may have problems, but I don't personally think it's THAT bad! It's just so popular now to denigrate anything American as somehow less intellectual as other countries, so popular to portray American students as slackers compared to other countries etc. There is still lots of good about America and American education. I have seen the trailer for 2 Million Minutes and can't wait to see the movie, but right off the bat I noticed it certainly WASN'T comparing apples to apples----it was more like apples to bananas :tongue_smilie:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:iagree: The US may have problems, but I don't personally think it's THAT bad! It's just so popular now to denigrate anything American as somehow less intellectual as other countries, so popular to portray American students as slackers compared to other countries etc. There is still lots of good about America and American education.

 

The fact remains that this country has to import 50% of its engineers and scientists because for some reason there are not enough American students taking on these subjects - either they are not willing or they are not able.

That has nothing to do with bashing - it just means that however this country educates young people it does not manage to satisfy its economic needs and has to rely on other countries' educational systems to produce these skilled people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The fact remains that this country has to import 50% of its engineers and scientists because for some reason there are not enough American students taking on these subjects - either they are not willing or they are not able.

That has nothing to do with bashing - it just means that however this country educates young people it does not manage to satisfy its economic needs and has to rely on other countries' educational systems to produce these skilled people.

 

I think it's more complicated than that. I work with lots of families from India who are here working those jobs. I get the impression that they are hired for short-term projects which companies don't want to commit to full-time American workers. These families have to be willing to move around to different projects at the drop of a hat, and return to India when they dry up. Which is sort of okay since India is where many want to stay. But I don't get the impression that the situation is caused by a lack of American software engineers.

 

Julie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I know that we are desperately trying to get American students into our graduate physics program - alas, most domestic applicants are not as qualified as the foreigners who apply.

(It would really be nice to have more American grad students who speak proper English and could teach a lab)

OTOH, our engineering graduates are snapped up and typically - at least over the last few years- easily got jobs. So it's not as if they are passed over because foreigners are preferred.

And as I wrote before, the procedure to hire a foreigner is very complicated. For H1-B visa, there is a quota which is usually filled very quickly - so a company can not count on getting a foreign employee this way. Also, there is no guarantee of timeline - it may take a few weeks, of it can take half a year for the INS to process the visa application. For permanent visa, the employer has to jump through a lot more hoops.

 

Edit: I want to add: in the last ten years, our department has not been able to hire a single American for a faculty position. The selection procedure is very rigorous. The best five candidates for any position are invited and interviewed over two days, they give talks and meet with every professor in the department. Before a foreigner can be hired, the department has to prove to the INS that no qualified American applicant has been found, and that the foreigner who gets the position will be paid the sale salary any American would have been paid.

Nevertheless, the last eight hires were all foreigners.

During the three searches I followed, there may have been a total of three Americans among the fifteen invited short list candidates.

Edited by regentrude
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I know that we are desperately trying to get American students into our graduate physics program - alas, most domestic applicants are not as qualified as the foreigners who apply.

(It would really be nice to have more American grad students who speak proper English and could teach a lab)

OTOH, our engineering graduates are snapped up and typically - at least over the last few years- easily got jobs. So it's not as if they are passed over because foreigners are preferred.

 

Since I have three teenagers, I would dearly love to know what school this is. It might help narrow our college search. :001_smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

Ă—
Ă—
  • Create New...