How much printing should I require?

[Celia]

I'm feeling really lost here. My ds6 is delayed with motor skills, but has made significant gains over the last year. He's currently working on the grade 1 level of HWT, after finishing the K level a couple months ago.

 

I've been keeping his writing minimal. We're using WWE 1 and he does the shorter copywork selection from that a couple times a week. He does anywhere from half to 2 pages of HWT a day, depending on how long they are. If he would stay focussed, he would be able to finish it within 5-10 mins. Instead it usually takes him about 20mins at least.

 

For his math, and most other subjects, I do the majority of the writing for him.

 

Am I being too easy on the guy? He complains to high heaven about printing, and I know it's a struggle for him, but I'm honestly struggling to tell if there's a bit of drama going on here and he's capable of more.

 

I'm worried that I'm not preparing him enough.

[Cindyz]

Have you thought about trying cursive instead? I know it sounds odd when you say that your child has a motor skill delay. My son was the same. We also did HWT K and I had the 1st grade book and it just wasn't going well. We switched to cursive and after the initial learning stages, his writing has soared. He enjoys writing in cursive, it's so much neater than his printing. The printing was very chaotic and kind of all over the place. The cursive is fluid and it just seems to flow for him. He can do quite a bit of writing now without complaint (a couple of sentences a day, spelling words, thank you notes, get well cards, etc). For math, I write for him occasionally. Sometimes the boxes are just too small, and I want him to focus on the material instead of the writing.

[Whereneverever]

My DD was like this in K, so I quit trying to teach her printing and switched to cursive. It's easier to write for many kids (even if that sounds weird) and she has pretty great handwriting and doesn't complain about doing it anymore. Most days. ;)

[LisaKinVA]

My oldest boy had some fine motor issues, he wanted to do cursive, but even with that, writing was still a painfully slow process. I did TOO MUCH accomodation for him in the early years.

 

My younger boy could not hold a pencil properly until he was almost 6. That is all we worked on the first year (he had the immature grab the pencil and hold it firmly grasped by his whole hand type of grip). I did *everything* from grippies, to style of writing -- UGH.

 

That first year, all we did was work on penmanship (meaning GRIP) for 15 min. a day. I did all other writing.

 

First grade (6), We started working on letter formation. Again, 15 minutes each day, working on "perfection." He then also did fill in the blank work, but I wrote anything longer than a word, and made certain to break up anything written. We used math workbooks/TT, and if I couldn't read an answer, he interpreted it for me.

 

Second grade (7), 15 minutes a day on penmanship -- striving for perfect. I know what his best looks like, and anything LESS than that gets erased and re-done. He writes almost everything now -- but I still help out occassionally (mainly composition first drafts, which he narrates). Other than penmanship, work must be legible (not perfect). I now make him correct letter flips, misplaced captials and lower case letters in every day work. He can now write a full page of copywork using the special printing paper with the dashed middle lines, very legilbly without complaint, and will sometimes do MORE than I asked him (because he feels like he's on a roll, and wants to get the whole copywork assignment done). However, he cannot print on standard wide-rule paper at. all. He needs the visual guides.

 

Next year, Third grade (8), we will begin cursive writing, he will write all of his work on his own... except maybe some narrated first drafts of reports (which he will then have to copy in his own handwriting).

[wapiti]

One of my kiddos also struggled with fine motor and writing in K. He was in school; he had both OT and his K teacher taught cursive. He finished K with a beautiful cursive handwriting. He was not required to write a whole lot during K.

 

He's doing fine now (printing because his teacher lets him, but he has nice printing, albeit slow). After doing some testing, our psych recommended allowing keyboarding. As he gets older and has more lengthy assignments, this is what he'll be doing. He has slow processing speed, particularly with motor activities like writing (or even speaking), which can make writing by hand more difficult than typing.

 

My advice is to separate learning content from the act of writing, to the extent possible. In doing so, I might increase the amount of handwriting practice you have him doing, and/or have him do lots and lots of other activities that work those hand - and whole arm - muscles - OT sorts of things.

[PeterPan]

Celia, the tricky part about complaining writers at this age is you're trying to sort out whether the dc simply needs more time to mature, more practice to get stronger, or has an actual PROBLEM. If I had used Lisa K's method with my dd at that age, it wouldn't have gotten us anywhere. Even in 5th grade she couldn't replicate letters "perfectly." (And believe me, we tried!) Turns out her hand hurt because she has actual physical problems, and her letters couldn't form perfectly because her eyes had problems. You have to look at YOUR CHILD and assess the degree of readiness and volitionalness (is that a word?) about this.

 

Here's what I note in your thread. You acknowledge he struggles. That's not the same as you realizing you didn't make him do enough. Your mommy radar is going off saying something is wrong, something is wrong. Listen to it. Next, you said he has focus issues. To what extent are those focus issues playing into this? I didn't realize this when my dd was young, but ADD and ADHD (what people are more familiar with) are actually two different things. ADD has no hyper-activity but is an inattentiveness. It's clinical and often comes as part of a nice little package of other problems (low tone, motor skills issues, apraxia, etc.).

 

I'm just trying to clue you in that it could be NOTHING, or it could actually be that you're starting to see some issues here. I saw those things in my dd when she was that age, and I didn't understand what I was seeing. Those issues with the hand hurting, etc. didn't just go away, and they didn't get better with age. We finally got referred off to OT, where the lady was able in short order to tell us exactly why dd's hand hurt, why she was struggling with these things, and what to do about it. Wish we had pursued OT a lot earlier. So to me, if your mommy radar is going off, I would look for answers. Is his pain or frustration or focusing significantly different from his peers? You can watch and compare him in Sunday School or play group. That's one way to guage.

 

BTW, is he a young 6? You said he completed the K5 book. It might be he needs a different start for his school year. My dd has a spring birthday, making her on the young end for her grade. I always start our new school year stuff and new levels in January. When they're so young, this slight shift can make a HUGE difference.

Edited December 5, 2010 by OhElizabeth

[Farrar]

My ds6's, who don't have any motor skills delays, don't do that much more printing than what you're describing. They do write their math and phonics themselves. However, if your son is struggling with writing, then combining it with something else that he might otherwise like or advance well with seems like it could be counter-productive. Obviously you have to do it at some point, but probably not yet. Sounds like you're doing fine.

[PeterPan]

It's not just the amount of writing that is a clue. If he's doing the writing, but he spends the whole time proclaiming how much his hand hurts, then that's NOT within the realm of normal. Normal 1st graders do NOT spend their school day saying their hand hurts.

 

With my dd, her writing would start off fine and drift into horrendousness as she went down the page. A tiny amount of writing didn't necessarily show you the whole issue.

 

BTW, when you say he has motor skills delays, is this a diagnosis from a professional or your observation or what?

[Celia]

Thanks for all the replies! It's good to hear where other kids his age are at. I've heard such mixed things about doing cursive early. I'm going to give it some thought.

 

OhElizabeth, his diagnoses was from an OT. He received therapy for most of his K year. His therapist felt comfortable stopping therapy in April, and we planned for a follow up visit come January. In her final report, she did say he would be below grade level and struggle this year with writing, but felt he might make advances on his own. He does have low muscle tone, but she didn't menion apraxia. I would say that his focus issues probably aren't out of the ordinary for a boy his age.

 

He also does have vision problems (can't get better than 20/40 acuity best corrected) which he'll be seeing an opthamologist for in the new year. But, I don't think that's coming into play a lot with his printing as it's not that small.

 

The complaining starts as soon as he sits down to do printing usually. He'll complain after maybe 5-10mins of printing that his hand hurts, but not immediately. This is one reason that I do keep it super short.

 

Hmmm. Maybe I should get in touch with his OT and get her to evaluate him, just to put my mind at ease. I guess I'm pretty comfortable keeping it very light and give him more time to mature, at least until he turns 7, which he'll be at the end of May. We can make up for it sometime in the next 11 years :)

[PeterPan]

Wow, I'm surprised she stopped OT. I've never done this with a young dc, as we just started this year. Just seems to me the whole system is so formative, he'd be unlikely to be done so young. Was this a ps/ei OT? I'm paying privately. There are a ton of sensory issues that come into play with low tone, so I'm not really sure when a OT who is very aware of SPD problems would stop. I know with my dd there are all kinds of funny things coming out that are sensory issues from the low tone. Low tone, then low core strength, leads to a weak shoulder and her leaning over. It's actually the way she leans over, resting all her weight on her wrist, that was causing the pain. So it has been a process, working on shoulder strength, repositioning her, working on the thumb and finger strength and awareness so she actually realizes what finger she is putting where. She did some Callirobics with her too. If your OT wasn't keying into these things or doesn't do a lot of SPD, maybe look for another? I think they all have their specialties and what they do a lot. She has been working with us on some quirks with how she was ice skating. Turns out the low tone meant she didn't develop proper sensory awareness in her extremities. Without that she wasn't weight-shifting properly and couldn't hold her spins for ice skating, where you need to start with your arms out and bring them in, weight-shifting. In other words, it's this little cascade. The low tone results in other problems down the road. Definitely look for some answers. Little boys shouldn't have to hurt to write, and this OT, or another, should be able to get you some solutions. As a stop gap measure our OT even had a trick where you write till the hand hurts and then give a new sensation (a massager/vibrator for instance) to tell the brain to think on that instead. Not a fix for the overall problem, but at least it gives you a way to help immediately.

 

Our OT keeps telling us that the eyes are controlled by muscles, meaning the low tone affects them too. OT can work on one end of the eye problems. Have you had him to a developmental optometrist? They're a bit different from an opthamologist. http://www.covd.org I'm just wondering what their take would be. A 20/20 vision test is sort of worthless anyway. It tells you how far they can get when they strain and try, but it doesn't tell you whether the eyes are actually working together correctly. Our OT sends people to VT regularly. BTW, dd's handwriting improved light years with VT.

Edited December 5, 2010 by OhElizabeth

[wapiti]

He also does have vision problems (can't get better than 20/40 acuity best corrected) which he'll be seeing an opthamologist for in the new year.

 

This smells rather fishy, i.e., I'd pay close attention to potential vision issues. I'm with OhElizabeth - consider seeing a covd optometrist. FWIW, I'd do that in addition to, or instead of, seeing the opthamologist, but the opthamologist is not exactly a substitute for the right kind of optometrist. Two different specialties.

[Celia]

This smells rather fishy, i.e., I'd pay close attention to potential vision issues. I'm with OhElizabeth - consider seeing a covd optometrist. FWIW, I'd do that in addition to, or instead of, seeing the opthamologist, but the opthamologist is not exactly a substitute for the right kind of optometrist. Two different specialties.

 

 

I'll have to see who exactly our optometrist has referred us to. The optometrist (who we've been seeing since he was 3) has never been able to get him to 20/20, but wasn't concerned until this last visit. Despite a history of strabismus in the family. So, this time he dilated him and still couldn't correct him better, and is referring him as he figures he maybe have bilateral amblyopia, although he's myopic, which I guess is unusual for bilateral amblyopia, so maybe he's on the wrong track there. Persuing this is difficult though, as the wait to see someone in our area is nearly a year, which I'm not satisfied with, so we need to travel about 6hrs away for a sooner appointment. Thanks for the info - I'll be sure to make very certain that we're seeing someone with the right specialty.

[Celia]

Wow, I'm surprised she stopped OT. I've never done this with a young dc, as we just started this year. Just seems to me the whole system is so formative, he'd be unlikely to be done so young. Was this a ps/ei OT? I'm paying privately. There are a ton of sensory issues that come into play with low tone, so I'm not really sure when a OT who is very aware of SPD problems would stop. I know with my dd there are all kinds of funny things coming out that are sensory issues from the low tone. Low tone, then low core strength, leads to a weak shoulder and her leaning over. It's actually the way she leans over, resting all her weight on her wrist, that was causing the pain. So it has been a process, working on shoulder strength, repositioning her, working on the thumb and finger strength and awareness so she actually realizes what finger she is putting where. She did some Callirobics with her too. If your OT wasn't keying into these things or doesn't do a lot of SPD, maybe look for another? I think they all have their specialties and what they do a lot. She has been working with us on some quirks with how she was ice skating. Turns out the low tone meant she didn't develop proper sensory awareness in her extremities. Without that she wasn't weight-shifting properly and couldn't hold her spins for ice skating, where you need to start with your arms out and bring them in, weight-shifting. In other words, it's this little cascade. The low tone results in other problems down the road. Definitely look for some answers. Little boys shouldn't have to hurt to write, and this OT, or another, should be able to get you some solutions. As a stop gap measure our OT even had a trick where you write till the hand hurts and then give a new sensation (a massager/vibrator for instance) to tell the brain to think on that instead. Not a fix for the overall problem, but at least it gives you a way to help immediately.

 

Our OT keeps telling us that the eyes are controlled by muscles, meaning the low tone affects them too. OT can work on one end of the eye problems. Have you had him to a developmental optometrist? They're a bit different from an opthamologist. www.covd.org I'm just wondering what their take would be. A 20/20 vision test is sort of worthless anyway. It tells you how far they can get when they strain and try, but it doesn't tell you whether the eyes are actually working together correctly. Our OT sends people to VT regularly. BTW, dd's handwriting improved light years with VT.

 

Ack. I just replied in length and deleted it. Will try again in a little while!

[Celia]

Wow, I'm surprised she stopped OT. I've never done this with a young dc, as we just started this year. Just seems to me the whole system is so formative, he'd be unlikely to be done so young. Was this a ps/ei OT? I'm paying privately. There are a ton of sensory issues that come into play with low tone, so I'm not really sure when a OT who is very aware of SPD problems would stop. I know with my dd there are all kinds of funny things coming out that are sensory issues from the low tone. Low tone, then low core strength, leads to a weak shoulder and her leaning over. It's actually the way she leans over, resting all her weight on her wrist, that was causing the pain. So it has been a process, working on shoulder strength, repositioning her, working on the thumb and finger strength and awareness so she actually realizes what finger she is putting where. She did some Callirobics with her too. If your OT wasn't keying into these things or doesn't do a lot of SPD, maybe look for another? I think they all have their specialties and what they do a lot. She has been working with us on some quirks with how she was ice skating. Turns out the low tone meant she didn't develop proper sensory awareness in her extremities. Without that she wasn't weight-shifting properly and couldn't hold her spins for ice skating, where you need to start with your arms out and bring them in, weight-shifting. In other words, it's this little cascade. The low tone results in other problems down the road. Definitely look for some answers. Little boys shouldn't have to hurt to write, and this OT, or another, should be able to get you some solutions. As a stop gap measure our OT even had a trick where you write till the hand hurts and then give a new sensation (a massager/vibrator for instance) to tell the brain to think on that instead. Not a fix for the overall problem, but at least it gives you a way to help immediately.

 

Our OT keeps telling us that the eyes are controlled by muscles, meaning the low tone affects them too. OT can work on one end of the eye problems. Have you had him to a developmental optometrist? They're a bit different from an opthamologist. www.covd.org I'm just wondering what their take would be. A 20/20 vision test is sort of worthless anyway. It tells you how far they can get when they strain and try, but it doesn't tell you whether the eyes are actually working together correctly. Our OT sends people to VT regularly. BTW, dd's handwriting improved light years with VT.

 

Trying again :)

 

Thanks for discussing this at length with me! I've been wavering back and forth on whether or not to get in touch with his OT again, and I certainly am going to now. I had NO IDEA that his low muscle tone could be affecting his eyes. I'm going to shoot her off an email tonight to discuss her coming over to evaluate him, as well as go an get another opinion.

 

His OT works in both the private and public sector. Here in Canada, OT is provided to any kid that needs it up until age 5, when the public school system takes over (in a poor way... very underfunded). So, after a long waiting list, he started seeing her at age 4, then aged out and we hired her privately to come over to our house and continue. But because she typically works with younger kids, she might not be our best choice now. Why she felt comfortable stopping therapy so soon, I'm not sure. She seemed to be very impressed with his progress and I guess wanted to see how he'd make out on his own. We had planned on re-evaluating in 6 months, but my impression was that she was rather certain he'd be fine. And since then I've been not really sure if his difficulties have stemmed from simply not liking writing (I unknowingly pushed him too hard in K, big mistake!), or if it goes deeper.

 

He does have poor core strength, but I have seen that improve. For instance, at the beginning of last spring, monkey bars at the park was an impossiblity. He's still not good at it, but he can make it a little ways across now! I still do see him doing quirky things to compensate with many activities though. And as far as writing and posture goes, I'm always still reminding him to use his helping hand to hold the paper, and oddly, his pencil grip has worsened over the past few months. I'll have to step back and observe his whole body next time he writes.

 

Thank you so much for the tips. I'm going to persue some evaluations in short order by a developmental optometrist and a different OT. With the kind of vision difficulties he's having, the explanation you've offered really seems to fit a lot more than the direction our current optometrist has been heading in. His 2 boys go to preschool with my 4yr old dd, so I'm going to bounce this off of him tomorrow and with any luck, he'll know of a developmental optometrist that is closer than the opthamologist he was referring us to who is a 5hr drive away!

[PeterPan]

Are there any OT's in your area who have offices you visit? I've heard of them doing home therapy visits, but really an OT needs to have special equipment that is specially mounted in the ceiling to do all the things an OT really can do. Are there any docs in your area known for treating autism? They would have leads on OT's who are good with sensory and tone issues. If you find a developmental optometrist doing a lot of VT, they'll probably be able to refer you to an OT as well.

 

You might also check to see if http://www.covd.org has any docs in Canada or if there's a canadian or international organization for it.