Non-Christian question re: Christmas

[zaichiki]

Actually, Santa may get his name from St. Nick, but most of the magical aspects of Santa (including the gift-giving) originally come from Norse mythology

 

Hmmm... interesting. Still, when *I* think of Santa I think of St. Nick.

 

It's sort of like Halloween, isn't it? Some people don't celebrate it b/c they think it is like celebrating evil. Those that dress up usually say that *they* are not celebrating evil. Same thing for me with Christmas.

 

To me, Santa represents St. Nick. I'm not thinking of Norse or any other mythology.

 

Current cultural traditions and symbols may have their roots in many places, but it's not "who did it first" or "where did the idea come from" that matters - it's "what does it mean to you." Santa wasn't injected into the celebration of Christ's birth to remember Norse mythology.

 

I don't mean to proclaim antheists have no right to celebrate a secular Christmas. Half of my family does it. We also celebrate a secular "Christmas" of sorts: Russian New Year!

 

So --

 

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone!

S novim godom!

[KarenNC]

Ah, well, in my experience (married into a family with both Jewish and Orthodox Christian members), a Passover seder is a Passover seder. I (and many other Christians I know) have celebrated it with Jewish family and friends. Other than the Last Supper, I know of no other way of celebrating Passover.

 

As I said, I'm not talking about those who celebrate Passover with Jewish family and friends. I'm talking about those who will hold a seder in their home or at church for other Christians for the purpose of teaching the "true" meaning of all of the symbolism (ie Christian). I first encountered this when Jews for Jesus came to our church when I was growing up to "explain the real meaning of the Passover." This was for people who, in all likelihood, had never met an actual Jewish person, as there weren't any in our town, and who had no experience with Judaism (or really any interest in it) as anything other than what people did as a filler between Creation and the birth of Jesus. I've been to a few other church seders that were the same.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. The folks I'm talking about are celebrating the Last Supper (regardless of what they call it), not Passover. There's a big difference. Perhaps this is a larger phenomenon in areas such as ours where there were very few Jews (or anything but Protestant Christians) until very recently.

[Rivka]

You mean the shepherds who heard the angel say, "“Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord" ?

 

I would love to hear what speaking parts the shepherds have in the play. I think I would be speechless if that happened to me! [and perhaps a bit afraid!]

 

If you aren't horrified by the whole concept of a Unitarian-Universalist Christmas pageant, I'll send you a copy. PM me. ;)

[redsquirrel]

My knee jerk answer is: COOKIES!

 

My real answer is that DH and I come from families that are christian in name only. Meaning, they celebrate christmas and expect us to celebrate with them. I never had a tree etc until I had my own kids. I was sort of forced into it, lol. I personally could take it or leave it. I have told DH many times that once the kids are grown we aren't having a tree or celebrating and he got all hang-dog so I may be stuck with it.

 

My kids DO know the story of the Nativity. I do believe he was a real person and a great teacher, one of many. I teach that to my kids as well. In fact, today I told it to my 5 year old. I am embarassed to admit that I had to shout in the middle "Hey, Honey, what is the name of the town where Jesus was born? I forgot!" It took him a minute but he remembered. :lol: I even own a nativity scene made of blocks for the kids to play with.

 

And for the record, my non-christian household holds 100% more discussion about Jesus and his message of love and peace and how it relates to our lives than my so-called christian in-laws.

 

And for all my complaining about Christmas, I do put a lot of work into making it a great experience for my kids. I want them to have wonderful family memories of this time of year so they KEEP COMING BACK when they grow up! I have a cunning plan! We have lots of traditions of musics and cooking and decorating and general coziness. When they are 30 years old, I want them to feel an intense need to be home with their mother at least once a year!

[Rivka]

I do find it odd if they observe it "because its secular" but then get in hysterics over someone saying "Merry Christmas!"

 

I would also find it odd if someone observed Christmas but didn't want to be wished a Merry Christmas. However, I've never seen or heard of that happening.

 

Have you actually ever seen/heard/met an atheist who celebrates Christmas but then "gets hysterical" over someone saying Merry Christmas? :confused: If anyone would be upset about the pervasive use of Merry Christmas, I would think it would be people of other faiths (not atheists), who celebrate different holidays. Yet they seem to be pretty good sports about it. ;)

 

Right; the reason that Christmas should not be treated as a universal American holiday is not because of atheists, who usually celebrate it, but because of people of other religions, who may be specifically enjoined from observing holidays of religions not their own. Although Christmas may be secular enough for atheists (and UUs like me, and general nonbelievers), it's not secular enough for most religious Jews, for example.

 

I will always remember a friend telling me about his preschool-aged son crying and saying he didn't want to be Jewish anymore, because every.single.person they encountered kept asking him if he was excited about Christmas, and asking what was Santa going to bring him because he was such a good boy, and his nursery school class had a party that he knew was not for him, and on and on. I worry a lot more about the harm done to that poor kid than I worry about the offended sensibilities of a Christian who hears "Happy Holidays" from the cashier at Target.

 

Christians who have a sedar on Passover or light a menorah on Hanukkah aren't just exposing their chilren to another culture. Jews and Christians worship the same God and have the same religious heritage. We remember the same Exodus (the Passover seder) and the same miracle of the oil during the temple commemoration (Hannukah). Most Christians don't celebrate with the Jewish traditions, even though the same historical events are in our Bible, but those that do still *believe* the historical accuracy of what they are doing.

 

I think that this is only kind of true. I grew up in a Christian church being taught about the great commonality between Christianity and Judaism, but when I became an adult I discovered that Jews tend not to see it the same way. Many Jews see Christians who celebrate Jewish holidays in their churches or on their own (as opposed to being guests at a Jewish celebration) as engaging in unwelcome cultural appropriation. Especially if they change some of the Jewish traditions around to relate them to Jesus.

 

But yep I've seen/heard plenty of Christians get all pompous and bullying and indignant about people being asked to say "Happy Holidays" and protesting it and making snotty, sarcastic remarks about being "too PC" (as if that's such a bad thing, and as if it's their right to take over the world and its stores and its schools and its public properties and push their beliefs down everyone else's throat- I mean, heaven forbid some people actually acknowledge with some degree of politeness and respect that not everybody celebrates Christmas and that therefore every public place need not treat it as the only holiday in the world).

 

"Merry Christmas" from someone who is well-meaning but just (for some reason) not really thinking about the fact that not everyone celebrates it- I can handle that in the spirit in which it was intended.

 

But a "Merry Christmas" from someone who is digging in their heels and basically saying "I know not everybody celebrates Christmas but WE'RE the majority here and we WILL have it OUR way and we REFUSE on principal to say "happy holidays" because Christmas is the be all, end all, and if you don't like it, too bad, and if the schools don't like it, we object, and if the stores don't like it, we boycott, and we're going to pass around stupid chain letters and poems about it and get everyone we can on the screw-everybody-else bandwagon"....

 

...if you REALLY can't find it in your heart to just wish me a "happy holiday," do me a favor. Just tell me to go to hell or something instead. :lol:

 

It'll be more real, at least.

 

;)

 

Nance, I think I love you. :lol:

[kiwi mum]

*really* stupid question here....

 

*ignorant question* Please, know I just don't understand and figure this is a safe place to ask it.....

 

How is it that the country you live in (Qatar I think it was) is a Muslim country if 3/4's of the population is non-Muslim?

 

Kris

 

It's not a stupid question, it's a really good one. We've only been here a few months so I am I still figuring it out, but here is my take on it.

 

Basically there are three different groups in the population. The first is the 10-20 percent who are locals, citizens. They run the show. This is not a democracy, it is an absolute monarchy/ dictatorship. They make the rules.

 

The second group is usually referred to as "ex-pats". Probably another 20-30 % of the population, (residents, not citizens) brought in to do the professional jobs that the locals can't or don't want to do. (engineers, teachers etc).

 

The third group is referred to as the "workers". Brought in from Asia/ India etc to do the dirty work. I know it sounds horrible but that is how it is here. They have very little rights and are paid a pitance.

 

Some of the workers are Muslim, a few of the ex-pats are, and all of the locals are. So it is a Muslim country with a majority non-Muslim population.

 

Another interesting side-fact. Because the majority of the workers don't get the option of bringing their family with them, the population is 70% male.

[Mom in High Heels]

:iagree: I'm not Christian but all I say to "Merry Christmas" is "Thanks, you too." That's the most polite and easy thing to say to someone who obviously has no idea I don't celebrate Christmas (and the people who are close enough to me to know wouldn't say it to me anyway).

 

But yep I've seen/heard plenty of Christians get all pompous and bullying and indignant about people being asked to say "Happy Holidays" and protesting it and making snotty, sarcastic remarks about being "too PC" (as if that's such a bad thing, and as if it's their right to take over the world and its stores and its schools and its public properties and push their beliefs down everyone else's throat- I mean, heaven forbid some people actually acknowledge with some degree of politeness and respect that not everybody celebrates Christmas and that therefore every public place need not treat it as the only holiday in the world).

 

"Merry Christmas" from someone who is well-meaning but just (for some reason) not really thinking about the fact that not everyone celebrates it- I can handle that in the spirit in which it was intended.

 

But a "Merry Christmas" from someone who is digging in their heels and basically saying "I know not everybody celebrates Christmas but WE'RE the majority here and we WILL have it OUR way and we REFUSE on principal to say "happy holidays" because Christmas is the be all, end all, and if you don't like it, too bad, and if the schools don't like it, we object, and if the stores don't like it, we boycott, and we're going to pass around stupid chain letters and poems about it and get everyone we can on the screw-everybody-else bandwagon"....

 

...if you REALLY can't find it in your heart to just wish me a "happy holiday," do me a favor. Just tell me to go to hell or something instead. :lol:

 

It'll be more real, at least.

 

;)

 

 

Can we start an "I {heart} NanceXToo" thread?

 

I send out cards that say "Frohe Weihnachten" which is the German Christmas greeting and everyone (not in Germany) asks me what it means. I laugh because I wonder what they think it means. Like I'd send out a holiday card that reads "eff off" in German. :D

[IsabelC]

I blogged a bit about this just the other day. Speaking only for myself, as a non Christian and non religious person, I have several reasons for celebrating Christmas.

 

1. We are cultural Christians. I don't believe in the tenets of Christianity, but I come from an Anglo-European Christian background, so almost all my ancestors up until my parents' generation were Christians of one kind or another. The literature, art, music, etc of my cultural heritage is Christian or Christian influenced. I have read that some people of Jewish background can feel very attached to Jewish traditions even if they are not, religiously, Jewish, so I guess it's a similar thing.

 

2. Christmas isn't just the Christian bit that some people would prefer it to be. Like it or not, these days it's also about love, peace, family and giving in the broad, non faith specific sense.

 

3. Christmas is very pervasive in Western countries. Not acknowledging it isn't really a practical option, because if we as a family do not develop our own traditions for this time of year, all the kids are likely to take in is the less desirable (consumerist) facet of it. We'd prefer that it has some meaning for them, and also that they develop a familiarity with Christianity, since they are living in a place when there are more Christians that people of any other (or no) faith.

[lailasmum]

We celebrate at the end of December. From about the 21st. We call it Christmas out of convenience but I think for me it has always had far more to do with our natural desires to see our family, eat together, have fun together, exchange gifts, at the darkest part of the year and its convenient that all of our family has long holidays then. I do have pagan leanings, I always have done and I come from a family where my parents rebelled against their own strict religious upbringing.

 

I haven't made any effort to tell my children the Christian nativity story. I plan to tell my daughter about it at some point soon as she has some Christian friends at the moment and would gain from knowing more about their religion.

 

We do celebrate the winter solstice in a gentle way. Until recently we celebrated with another family but they have now moved. I suppose our house is in celebration mode from the 21st to the new year. Lots of family meals and time together.

 

We don't do big commercial Celebrations though. We go through phases of no presents, or only cheap presents (under £5), we currently give only practical gifts largely because none of us are into owning stuff for the sake of owning it. We also tend to move away from traditional Christmas dinners, I will cook one sometimes but we often just have a big meal of favourite foods.

[NanceXToo]

I will always remember a friend telling me about his preschool-aged son crying and saying he didn't want to be Jewish anymore, because every.single.person they encountered kept asking him if he was excited about Christmas, and asking what was Santa going to bring him because he was such a good boy, and his nursery school class had a party that he knew was not for him, and on and on. I worry a lot more about the harm done to that poor kid than I worry about the offended sensibilities of a Christian who hears "Happy Holidays" from the cashier at Target.

 

Thanks for saying this. Nobody thinks about it, and I had almost this same problem! My daughter (now 10) was 4 and in preschool and for the whole month of December, we could NOT go to a store without someone: 1) Asking my daughter if she was excited for Santa to come and 2) Wishing her a Merry Christmas.

 

In preschool, they had a "Christmas party" (not a "Holiday party") complete with a Santa Claus and Christmas crafts. The town streets were decorated with Christmas lights and a town square (public property!) was decorated with, get this, a nativity scene- not a menorah to be seen to balance things out, of course.

 

She kept asking "Why doesn't Santa come to our house?" And I'd patiently repeat "Because we're Jewish, Santa is for Christmas, but we have/do fun things too...." It just wasn't good enough for a four year old. She didn't want to be the ONLY one who didn't celebrate Christmas- but she was, and it was impossible to not be reminded of it everywhere we went.

 

And what was worse- I wouldn't tell her (I regret this now) that Santa wasn't real anyway because I was afraid she'd go to the other four year olds and tell them "My mom said Santa isn't real anyway!" and then all the other kids would hate her and she'd be forever known not just as a Jew, but as the Jew who killed Santa lol. And since at that point in time, I expected she'd be in public school until she graduated, I didn't want THAT following her around her whole life.

 

And we couldn't go anywhere during the month of January without someone asking her, "What did Santa bring you this year?"

 

It was miserable, I used to hate the whole holiday season.

 

I dealt with that for preschool, Kindergarten and 1st grade. In 2nd grade I finally told her SANTA ISN'T REAL! THOSE KIDS' PRESENTS COME FROM THEIR PARENTS AND SO DO YOURS!!! ...BUT DON'T TELL ANYONE!!!

 

By third grade she was fine with her differences (and even wanted to do a little Hanukkah presentation for her class)- and that was the year I pulled her out of school anyway so it's been less of an issue, not being in a classroom full of Christmas hype, and she's old enough to deal with it in stores now and not afraid to say "Thanks, but we celebrate Hanukkah" when some well-meaning (I hope) cashier tells her "Merry Christmas."

 

As for my son...he's 5, but he's never been to preschool or public school, and so Christmas has never been the big deal it was for my daughter. In fact, the other day, we were walking in the mall and the mall Santa waved and said Merry Christmas! to my son- my son looked at him like he had six heads and didn't say a word, just kept walking. When we passed, he told me, "He's not real, Mommy. It's just a costume." He's perfectly happy with our Hanukkah celebrations and his Hanukkah gifts and hasn't yet really realized just how much in the minority he really is.

 

I wish people would think twice and care about things like this rather than getting their panties in a bunch over whether some cashiers are being instructed to say "happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas." Being wished a "happy holiday" isn't going to be harmful to ANY Christian but guess what? It can be pretty helpful to (for example) a Jewish child. And guess what, I'm SURE Jesus would have been ALL FOR respect for the JEWS OF ALL PEOPLE!

 

So there! :P :lol:

 

Nance, I think I love you. :lol:

 

I seriously <3 you right about now. :001_smile: Thank you.

 

Can we start an "I {heart} NanceXToo" thread?

 

I send out cards that say "Frohe Weihnachten" which is the German Christmas greeting and everyone (not in Germany) asks me what it means. I laugh because I wonder what they think it means. Like I'd send out a holiday card that reads "eff off" in German. :D

 

LOL, well, now, you guys are making me blush!! :D And if you sent me a card that read "eff off" in German- I'd probably appreciate it lol.

[JennyD]

This is a very illuminating thread. I am Jewish, don't celebrate Christmas, and honestly I've known very few Jews -- no matter how nonobservant -- who do. I have one friend who said that her family had a Christmas tree growing up, but she's the exception.

 

I did not realize, though, how many people differentiate between the "secular" and "religious" aspects of Christmas. To me, it all seems the same. Very interesting to know that many of those closer to the phenomenon don't see it that way.

[Mom in High Heels]

I went to a Catholic high school (all girls), but we had girls of many different religions from all over the world. In my advisory (like homeroom, but it's the same people and same adviser all 4 years) we had (out of 12 girls) 2 Jewish girls, and a Buddhist. Around the holidays we always talked about how different religions celebrated. One of the Jewish girls talked about how she always felt left out when all her friends had Christmas trees but she didn't, so her grandmother decided to get her a Hanukkah tree and decorated it with blue lights, dreidels, tiny Star of David's and some home made menorah ornaments. She said it made her feel more "normal."

 

Indy knows the Christmas story and thinks it's a great story, but we made sure he knows it's just that. To him it's just one of a bunch of different religious stories he knows.

 

He loves Christmas though, and why not? It's fun and we have loads of great family traditions.

[jplain]

My daughter (now 10) was 4 and in preschool and for the whole month of December, we could NOT go to a store without someone: 1) Asking my daughter if she was excited for Santa to come and 2) Wishing her a Merry Christmas.

Aw, poor kid! :grouphug:

 

That reminds me of how people in stores ask my kids at the end of Spring if they're excited for school to let out. We homeschool year-round, and they like it, so the question just strikes them as odd.

 

My kids' response to Santa questions cracks me up too: puzzled look, followed by, "But don't you know Santa's not real? It is just a story." :lol:

[Sun]

:iagree: I'm not Christian but all I say to "Merry Christmas" is "Thanks, you too." That's the most polite and easy thing to say to someone who obviously has no idea I don't celebrate Christmas (and the people who are close enough to me to know wouldn't say it to me anyway).

 

But yep I've seen/heard plenty of Christians get all pompous and bullying and indignant about people being asked to say "Happy Holidays" and protesting it and making snotty, sarcastic remarks about being "too PC" (as if that's such a bad thing, and as if it's their right to take over the world and its stores and its schools and its public properties and push their beliefs down everyone else's throat- I mean, heaven forbid some people actually acknowledge with some degree of politeness and respect that not everybody celebrates Christmas and that therefore every public place need not treat it as the only holiday in the world).

 

"Merry Christmas" from someone who is well-meaning but just (for some reason) not really thinking about the fact that not everyone celebrates it- I can handle that in the spirit in which it was intended.

 

But a "Merry Christmas" from someone who is digging in their heels and basically saying "I know not everybody celebrates Christmas but WE'RE the majority here and we WILL have it OUR way and we REFUSE on principal to say "happy holidays" because Christmas is the be all, end all, and if you don't like it, too bad, and if the schools don't like it, we object, and if the stores don't like it, we boycott, and we're going to pass around stupid chain letters and poems about it and get everyone we can on the screw-everybody-else bandwagon"....

 

...if you REALLY can't find it in your heart to just wish me a "happy holiday," do me a favor. Just tell me to go to hell or something instead. :lol:

 

It'll be more real, at least.

 

;)

 

:lol: and :iagree:

[Murphy101]

Sigh.

 

Just as many people only call themselves christians because their parents did or because it the most socially accepted, that's pretty much why many people in general do Christmas.

 

I wouldn't. If I wasn't Catholic, I could and would completely drop Christmas. (I hate all the commercial hoopla regardless.)

 

However, my dh is at best agnostic and heck would freeze before he'd give up Christmas. Even without Christ, he views it as a happy occasion of cultural and family traditions. He loves the decorating, the shopping, the everything about it that I'd just as soon skip entirely.

 

Because of my dh, we open Christmas presents in the morning. Which is weird to me. I grew up in a very German family. You open them at midnight The night before! I really surprisingly miss that, tho my family was not particularly religious at all. But I do go to midnight mass, which I love. And many people who attend aren't catholic of religious. It's a beautiful occasion even if yiu can't appreciate the sacrament and birth being celebrated.

[Veritaserum]

We separate the religious from the secular. Christmas Eve is when we read Luke 2 and talk about the birth of Christ. Christmas Day is for presents, family, and fun. That's how it was in my family growing up, too. If we stopped being Christians we would still celebrate Christmas Day the same way.

 

I am utterly unoffended by "Happy Holidays" as a greeting. :)

[Lady Florida.]

Because they want to. Because Christians don't own the day or the season. Because axial tilt is the reason for the season. Because it was a special time of year long before Jesus or Christians existed. Because it has little to do with Christ. Because there's no reason not to. Because each day is what you make of it and everyone has a right to celebrate what they want to and none of us need permission from anyone else. Because our children are just as deserving of presents and fun as Christian children. Because we exist.

 

:iagree: I keep trying to find the "like" button.

[mommytobees]

It's not a stupid question, it's a really good one. We've only been here a few months so I am I still figuring it out, but here is my take on it.

 

Basically there are three different groups in the population. The first is the 10-20 percent who are locals, citizens. They run the show. This is not a democracy, it is an absolute monarchy/ dictatorship. They make the rules.

 

The second group is usually referred to as "ex-pats". Probably another 20-30 % of the population, (residents, not citizens) brought in to do the professional jobs that the locals can't or don't want to do. (engineers, teachers etc).

 

The third group is referred to as the "workers". Brought in from Asia/ India etc to do the dirty work. I know it sounds horrible but that is how it is here. They have very little rights and are paid a pitance.

 

Some of the workers are Muslim, a few of the ex-pats are, and all of the locals are. So it is a Muslim country with a majority non-Muslim population.

 

Another interesting side-fact. Because the majority of the workers don't get the option of bringing their family with them, the population is 70% male.

 

Okay, that makes sense. Thank you.

 

So, if the population is 70% male.... does that lead to problems?

 

Kris

[kiwi mum]

Okay, that makes sense. Thank you.

 

So, if the population is 70% male.... does that lead to problems?

 

Kris

 

Ha,ha! Ya think? Just like the military. :D

[MelanieM]

I agree with you, but, if you don't believe in Christ why would you celebrate his birth.

 

I think many people here are saying they don't celebrate his birth, and that Christmas isn't about the birth of Christ at all for them. Really, it's just one small part of what Christmas can be... it just so happens that the term "Christmas" is the one most widely adopted by those that celebrate the season, whether they celebrate Christ or not. Kind of a "call it whatever you want -- let's celebrate!" approach to the holidays. :D

 

I've never known anyone to get their panties in a bunch over "Merry Christmas", but I've seen A LOT of people get upset (you know how everyone loves to vent on Facebook!) about "Happy Holidays". It's somehow considered wrong to acknowledge the fact that there are multiple celebrations going on through the season.

 

Same here. Though I always here the stories about those cranky non-Christians who get mad when they hear "Merry Christmas", ruining the season for Christians everywhere.

 

I would think that Pagans could just as easily argue that anyone who decorates a Christmas tree, tells their children about Santa (with magic elves & flying reindeer), fills stockings with goodies, and eats a big feast on December 25th is actually celebrating a Pagan solstice festival, not the birth of Christ.

 

Jackie

 

Yes! It's so funny to me because I was raised Christian and am now Pagan, and Christmas traditions make so much more sense to me now then they ever did as a kid! It has been fascinating to learn where all these symbols came from and what they've meant to people throughout time. I think it's pretty awesome that we have these threads of tradition that come from all around the world and have been pulled together to make for a fabulous winter festival. Many of these traditions have roots long pre-dating Christianity, and I think it's pretty great that no one religion has been able to claim them to the exclusion of all others who want a piece of the merry making.

 

I love the holiday season and all winter celebrations. I think any reason people use to get happy, love their neighbours, reach out and do good works, and enjoy family and friends and getting merry together has got to be a good thing! :D

[stripe]

What amazes me is the idea that everyone's "holiday" is supposed to be on Dec. 25. Especially noticeable when Hanukkah falls early in Dec., like this year. You will also observe Christmas is off the popular radar when Orthodox Christians celebrate it. I once had a talk with an Orthodox co-worker; he said his family celebrated Christmas twice. I think the marketing machine makes going outside the norm very challenging.

[Melissa in NC]

 

On Christmas Day, we travel to brunch with my family (an odd mix of very religiously focused and playing "Dirty Santa"---I have a hard time reconciling the two and don't play). Then we go to my in-laws for dinner and presents, not religiously focused at all.

 

I am right there with you about the Dirty Santa. That is the worst party game ever invented. I never felt right about taking a gift from someone else and making them sad/mad. And if the game was done with kids, someone ended up crying.

 

My new tradtion on the Solstice is to give the family a new Knex project to work on together. Everyone is so proud to show me the finished product. That is what the holiday, no matter what you call it, should be like.

[mommaduck]

What amazes me is the idea that everyone's "holiday" is supposed to be on Dec. 25. Especially noticeable when Hanukkah falls early in Dec., like this year. You will also observe Christmas is off the popular radar when Orthodox Christians celebrate it. I once had a talk with an Orthodox co-worker; he said his family celebrated Christmas twice. I think the marketing machine makes going outside the norm very challenging.

Yep, because on the Old Calendar, Christmas falls on Jan 6 of the New Calendar.

[stripe]

Yep, because on the Old Calendar, Christmas falls on Jan 6 of the New Calendar.

I knew that at the time I asked him. My point was, he was celebrating Christmas on the day he felt it should be celebrated as well as when most other people celebrated it.

[mommaduck]

I agree. I really don't know why anyone would wonder why a lot of non Christians celebrate Christmas. It's a federal holiday for one. We are constantly bombarded for another. I've even known Muslims who go out and buy a tree and have presents because they feel pressured to give that to their kids.

And ironically there are plenty of Christians that don't do trees or extreme amounts of gifts. Those things are more of the secularised version of the holiday season.

[mommaduck]

I knew that at the time I asked him. My point was, he was celebrating Christmas on the day he felt it should be celebrated as well as when most other people celebrated it.

More of a notation for other posters that may not be as familiar ;)

[SailorMom]

My dh and I were both raised as Christians. He had a much more religious upbringing than I did (his mother is a pastor), mine was a bit more secular.

I am a deist (and he is leaning that way more and more), but we still celebrate Christmas. Here is why:

 

Family and culture - it is an important part of our extended family's year and beliefs, and a huge part of American culture

 

Beliefs: We believe our children are too young (at 13 and 14) to make any sort of permanent decision about their own religious beliefs, and since their extended family is all Christian, we want them to have that option still viable for them if they choose, and something they feel comfortable choosing.

 

Secularism: Really - I'm sorta in the category of "pick a pagan holiday".... Christmas is such a jumble of pagan traditions, that to me - it's just a nice time to spend with family and show love and generosity. I grew up on Christmas carols and a tree - and we really still enjoy them.

 

Lastly - no religion has a monopoly on love and charity - and I believe this is what Christmas is about for our family. Even as a deist - I think Jesus's message was a profound and wonderful one and I have no problem wishing him a happy birthday. Even without his divinity, he was an amazing and wonderful rabbi, and gave a beautiful message of peace and hope to many people.

 

As an aside - since I do not believe in Jesus's resurrection (I do believe he was born - though it was not in the winter), we celebrate a secular Easter. I can't see how the pagan symbols of fertility (eggs and rabbits) and a celebration of the Spring Equinox have anything to do with Christianity, and my children know exactly what we are celebrating - the rebirth/reawakening of the world after a cold winter.

 

Also - I encourage anyone with even the tinsiest bit of curiosity to look up the story of Mithras.....

Edited December 6, 2010 by SailorMom

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Also - I encourage anyone with even the tinsiest bit of curiosity to look up the story of Mithras.....

 

 

Actually, I would encourage anyone with even the tinsiest bit of curiosity to look up ALL of the "born of a virgin, had 12 disciples, son of god, crucified and rose again" stories that predated the Jesus story. ;)

[OH_Homeschooler]

I have NEVER ever had an atheist or person of non-Christian faith EVER get bent out of shape about "Merry Christmas." Usually it is just the Christians having a hissy fit about "Happy Holidays."

 

I think it is ridiculous.

 

Yeah, and seriously...what do Christians want from atheists? We atheists supposedly get bent out of shape when someone wishes us a Merry Christmas (I don't), but some Christians also get upset if we celebrate Christmas. So...either start to understand that we would pose an objection to telling us Merry Christmas, OR don't have a hissy fit if we celebrate Christmas. Pick one.

 

And to answer the original question...I was raised Catholic and spent many years exploring other religions before coming to the conclusion that I am an atheist. So Christmas was I suppose you would say, a legitimate holiday for me to celebrate. Now I live hundreds of miles away from where I grew up and still like to feel connected to my family, so I continue to share in the traditions and to pass them on to our kids.

 

Last night we put up our Christmas tree. The lights give me a warm feeling even when it is dark and cold out. We put up ornaments we've been putting up forever celebrating major and minor family milestones. Our first house, our first Christmas as a married couple, our first Christmas as parents-to-be.

 

I'm sorry if it offends Christians that I celebrate in this way as an atheist. On second thought, nevermind. I'm not sorry. I have the right to celebrate Christmas however I choose in the privacy of my own home and I honestly do not have to justify it to anyone.

 

This thread here? I can't believe it comes up every year. And I can't believe I answer it every year.

[KarenNC]

Also - I encourage anyone with even the tinsiest bit of curiosity to look up the story of Mithras.....

 

 

Very good essays, from a long time and respected Neopagan author whose scholarship I highly respect (he's presented papers at several academic conferences, though on a different topic), on the subject of Mithraism and Christianity (summation---Christianity didn't come out of Mithraism)

http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/mith/whatmithisnt.htm

http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/mith/index.htm

[SailorMom]

Very good essays, from a long time and respected Neopagan author whose scholarship I highly respect (he's presented papers at several academic conferences, though on a different topic), on the subject of Mithraism and Christianity (summation---Christianity didn't come out of Mithraism)

http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/mith/whatmithisnt.htm

http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/mith/index.htm

 

Oh - no - it didn't form from it... I agree. But I do think that the MANY stories in the past that pre-date Christianity and Judaism did have a profound influence on many aspects of the religion and the stories that are passed down. I think it is important to know what came before.

[KarenNC]

Oh - no - it didn't form from it... I agree. But I do think that the MANY stories in the past that pre-date Christianity and Judaism did have a profound influence on many aspects of the religion and the stories that are passed down. I think it is important to know what came before.

 

Agreed, there certainly are and it is important. My daughter, at 10 and on the second round of ancient history, is seeing a lot of those connections and similarities now.

 

I posted the essays because there is a lot of misinformation online about the purported connections between Mithraism and Christianity (what, mistaken information online, how could that be possible ;)?). There are a lot of sites that do indeed claim that Christianity is basically taken almost whole cloth from Mithraism.

[KarenNC]

This thread here? I can't believe it comes up every year. And I can't believe I answer it every year.

 

I answer some of the ones (like this, Halloween, etc) every year because every year there are new people and I have a chance to help educate and dispel mistaken stereotypes and just plain mistaken information.

[Mandy in TN]

Personally, I've never understood why non-Christians celebrate Christmas. To me, it would be like non-Muslims celebrating Eid. People don't go around doing that now, do they?

Of course they do!

 

Dh was raised Muslim. I was raised Christian. We celebrate our heritage. We celebrate both.

 

Actually, Mary is a much more prominent figure in the Koran than in the Protestant Bible and Jesus is a Muslim prophet.

 

Anyway, it is fun to celebrate and be part of an American cultural heritage- especially since most Christmas celebrations are not religious. And like other people have pointed out- How do you get away from it?

 

We attend a Unitarian church and celebrate Christmas. Our church also celebrates and acknowleges Solstice, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa. And Eid for that matter. :001_smile: It also does family community service project on Black Friday.

 

Christmas is very much a traditional, cultural holiday and it's no coincidence that it falls within days of Winter Solstice. Just because people don't specifically celebrate the birth of Christ doesn't mean they can't draw joy, wisdom, and meaning from a season giving and darkness. Our kids know the Christmas story well.

I so wish there was a UU church closer to our home.

 

:D And now for my annual posting of the following:

 

 

 

For So the Children Come

 

by Sophia Lyon Fahs

 

For so the children come

And so they have been coming.

Always in the same way they come

born of the seed of man and woman.

 

No angels herald their beginnings.

No prophets predict their future courses.

No wisemen see a star to show where to find the babe

that will save humankind.

 

Yet each night a child is born is a holy night,

Fathers and mothers--

sitting beside their children's cribs

feel glory in the sight of a new life beginning.

 

They ask, "Where and how will this new life end?

Or will it ever end?"

 

Each night a child is born is a holy night--

A time for singing,

A time for wondering,

A time for worshipping.

 

Copyright by Unitarian-Universalist Association

beautiful

 

I love any excuse to celebrate. I'd celebrate the other religious holidays too if I knew how to do it. ;) My parents were Catholic (my husband's parents were Catholic too). We have always celebrated Christmas. It would feel weird not to. For our family it was always a lot about the food, togetherness, cookie baking, tree decorating, Santa Claus, etc. We didn't even go to Christmas mass most years.

 

That and since so many people in fact do celebrate Christmas I think my kids would feel rather left out. I'd feel left out. It's hard to get away from it. I sometimes wish I could because I feel a sense of pressure to make it a special time and that's hard sometimes.

:iagree:

 

I love living in a country where I can celebrate my cultural heritage, my dh's heritage, and whatever other holidays we want to include!

Mandy

[amey311]

Christmas = Christ + Mass

 

There is no "Christmas" without Christ. And, in this particular case, the Christ in question is Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

We're a secular family. DH's current religious belief is "not buying it" (thank you, Facebook). Mine has varied (I was raised United Methodist) and most recently I've rotated between agnostic and apatheist (I don't know and I don't care). At one point on FB my religious belief was "Han Soloist" which was related to a quote from one of the Star Wars movies.

 

DH is increasingly frustrated by the commercialism of September - December, but he doesn't like any kind of commercialism. It's one of the reasons we have TiVo, I'm sure - so he can fast forward thru all the commercials :)

 

That said, he's campaigning pretty hard for us to call the December 25th holiday "Giftmas" because that's what it seems to be about (even in our house). We told the kids the truth about the Easter Bunny this year and they did the math on Santa. Honestly? I think it was a relief for my older son (high anxiety + some stranger breaking into our house = :scared:, but I still want stuff = moodiness for the week before), and my INCREDIBLY logic brained younger son just wasn't willing to buy into the magic aspect.

 

We're considering celebrating Festivus with some friends.

[secular_mom]

I've been wondering the same thing. I think that most people have kind of lost the true meaning of Christmas anyway; it's become so commercialized that I think a lot of people see it as just an excuse for taking time off from work and getting/giving presents and having parties. It would certainly not hold the same meaning for non-Christians as it does for Christians, a prospect that I consider very sad. It would be kind of hollow, KWIM?

I can see that it would be hollow for you to celebrate in a way that holds no meaning for you. I believe that we are the ones who give our lives and traditions meaning, so there's no hollowness for me (except maybe the part where I feel obligated to visit people who are not kind and I feel uncomfortable with- that's pretty hollow. :lol: Except it's important to me to do it anyway because I am doing it out of respect for someone I love, even though I really DON'T have to.) it's all fun and joyful.

I don't see it as 'an excuse' to take time off from work- that IS the time of year that DH is able to take off work because his command has planned to have people taking leave at that time of the year. Otherwise, he's always the one they're depending on and can't seem to take time off unless there's an emergency. :tongue_smilie: So we take the opportunity to spend that time together while we can, and enjoy it. No one really needs an 'excuse' to have a party or give someone a present either.

[jplain]

It would certainly not hold the same meaning for non-Christians as it does for Christians, a prospect that I consider very sad. It would be kind of hollow, KWIM?

:blink:

 

My Christmas isn't hollow or sad. It is my annual celebration of family. It is the one time every year that my 5 siblings and I are able to gather with our spouses and children. The rest of the year we're spread out over the country, and we rarely see one another due to finances and limited vacation/leave time. It is also the one time of year that I get to see most of my aunts, uncles, cousins, and grandparents.

 

The commercialism doesn't intrude on us too much, as we've been pretty stern with extended family about not giving us gifts that will a burden for us to ship home (lesson learned after the first few Christmases with DD!), or that contradict our family values. And my family is so large that it is impractical to give extravagant gifts anyway.

 

So we exchange smaller gifts. Among my sibs, if you have kids, your kids get gifts or the family gets a family gift. If you don't have kids, everyone gives you a gift, something like a book or DVD or item of clothing. Before and after Christmas Day we spend time together playing and relaxing. It is a time of year I cherish, since I cannot be near family during the rest of the year. :001_wub: Again, there's nothing hollow or sad about it.

[SailorMom]

Nothing hollow or sad here either...... in fact - I've enjoyed Christmas more since becoming a deist.

[Catwoman]

Originally Posted by ereks mom

It would certainly not hold the same meaning for non-Christians as it does for Christians, a prospect that I consider very sad. It would be kind of hollow, KWIM?

 

I don't see why it would have to be sad or hollow. It's still a great time to celebrate, exchange gifts, spend time with family and friends, be thankful for everything you have, decorate your house festively, eat all kinds of great food, listen to happy songs, enjoy the hustle and bustle of the shopping and preparation, and all sorts of other things.

 

I don't think a person needs to believe in the religious stuff in order to enjoy a fun and festive holiday. I also think it's great for anyone (Christian or not) to think of Christmastime as a season of giving and doing good for others.

 

Cat

[MelanieM]

About the not being sad and hollow thing... I think it must be hard for many Christians to understand that many people who do not embrace Jesus Christ as a personal saviour live happy, full lives and don't feel they're missing out on anything at all. So by extension, not getting in on the celebrating Jesus part of Christmas must sound like a really important piece that's missing from it all, even though it's not from the perspective of those of us that aren't Christian. I guess if God is your everything, it's kind of hard to understand how someone else can have everything outside of God.

[Mejane]

About the not being sad and hollow thing... I think it must be hard for many Christians to understand that many people who do not embrace Jesus Christ as a personal saviour live happy, full lives and don't feel they're missing out on anything at all. So by extension, not getting in on the celebrating Jesus part of Christmas must sound like a really important piece that's missing from it all, even though it's not from the perspective of those of us that aren't Christian. I guess if God is your everything, it's kind of hard to understand how someone else can have everything outside of God.

 

Exactly! My pastor brother thinks my unbelieving family and I lead sad and hollow lives. Fortunately for us, we don't look to him for our self-worth. :tongue_smilie: