Halftime Hope Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 I posted this on the high-school board, and have gotten a couple of responses there, but I'm posting it here as well. I really need WWYD? thoughts tonight, as ds has his next class with this prof tomorrow morning: So ds is taking a CS class dual credit at the univ where he will start fulltime as a freshman next year. This class is a required part of the engineering majors. He has scholarships that are renewable based on GPA, and the GPA requirement gets higher the junior and senior years. His prof has been all over the board in the way he has presented the class requirements--no plan, no syllabus, no consistency, lots of polling the class on how they want their grade made up, when to schedule tests, etc. He told the class the day *after* census day, so they could no longer drop without it appearing on their transcript as a drop (they can only drop 9 hours throughout their entire college career), that they had better study hard, as last year he failed 75% of the class. So ds has studied very hard and has been making good grades. So far he has over a 100% average, when you factor in the weighting of the hmwk with bonus points. He is seventh in class rank out of ~40. So Tuesday, the prof says that the final grades will be a combo of their scores and their class rank. Ds has concluded that this is going to be a bell-curve deal, that the prof will probably only give out six As, many more Bs and Cs, although he hasn't stated that explicitly. I have a real problem with a bell curve being applied and with a kid's grade being arbitrarily adjusted based on class numbers. A work is A work. If you have too many As, then you adjust the work to be harder or score things more stringently. This should have been a class that was a straightforward A for ds; and it really matters toward his GPA, which will matter in his being able to keep scholarship money. Help?? how would you handle this? Thank you!! Valerie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klmama Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 1. Tell ds that sometimes students work extremely hard and still don't get the grades they really deserve, but that it evens out in the end and a B is not the end of the world. I would probably stop there, unless ds were extremely bent out of shape about this. If so, I'd go to #2. 2. Suggest to ds that he could speak to the instructor during office hours to ask for clarification. Offer to practice with him beforehand so he can phrase his concerns in a respectful way and accept an answer he doesn't like. If ds is still concerned, go to #3. 3. Suggest he speak to his academic advisor or the department head to find out what a B in this course would mean for his degree program. Again, offer to practice with him so he can present this as a concern and not a complaint. If the professor fails that many students, a B would probably be just fine for work in that department. Sorry your ds is having to experience this so early in his college career. Even so, I do think it's important that he be the one to deal with the school about it, not you. For the people at the college to treat him like an adult, he has to act like one, KWIM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 Your ds's prof is an a--hole. Sorry, but it's true. I spent many years as a prof. Granted, it was in Fine Arts, but I've known plenty of engineering/sciences profs as well. No ethical prof grades on a bell curve. It is highly unprofessional of a prof to "wing it" when it comes to course parameters. During the first week of class, you let the students know what the grading system and course overview will be. And then, you stick to that! Now, it is possible that your ds may have misunderstood this idea of grading on a curve. I would suggest that he ask to speak to the prof, preferably during his office hours and not right after class. Ask the prof what his current grade actually is. Then, ask him something like, "if I keep on this level of work, will I be assigned an A for the course?" Whatever you do, don't ask "What do I have to do to get an A?" That sounds like you're suggesting something improper. If, for some reason, your ds clearly has acheived very high marks (you said over 100%?) by the end of the course, and he does not receive an A, there is probably an appeal process in place at the school where a student can appeal a grade. Generally, you have to make the first appeal to the prof directly, but if they refuse, then you would go either to the Dean of the college, or whatever office handles such a thing. Sorry your ds has such a cr*ppy prof. It's probably small consolation, but they aren't all like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 A lot depends on the college and what accrediting agency they're under, but these days professors in general are required to provide an explicit syllabus and are held to it. I've been an adjunct computer science professor for nine years, and my syllabi are scruntized every semester for being "correct" and the contract I sign says that I can be fired for not adhering to the policies in my syllabus. The state buys "professional practice" insurance on me, and the rules there also say that I must stick to my syllabus and college policies or be on my own legally. I'm not telling you to do this, but these days students SUE professors who make it up as they go. REALLY! Frankly if it was my kid, I'd encourage him to go to the professor and clarify what this jerk intends and take notes. I'd hang tough to the end of the semester until grades are in (to avoid reprisal unfortunately), and then I'd make an appointment with Department Head or Program Head and ask if it's the norm to change the requirements for a class throughout the semester. I wouldn't say more than that. If he/she just blows it off, then you know that either the professor is being protected and/or this college doesn't take that kind of thing seriously. Frankly it may just be part of the college culture to be so loosey-goosey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leta Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 Talk to the dean of students and the department head BEFORE grades are given out. This is taken as an indication that you have real concerns rather than you are just put out over the grade you got. It sounds like this guy is tenured, which is too bad. If he's an adjunct, they'll probably do something; if he's tenured and enough people fuss, they may have him take a sabbattical... next semester. Terrible profs are usually tenured- that's how they are allowed to be terrible. (Of course, there are many wonderful tenured professors; most tenured profs, in fact, are good, but ALL the truly terrible profs I've encountered have gotten their tenure and just stopped giving a s***.) Also, consider finding out your current grade status, and just dropping the class if the grade is too low. A drop is not as a bad as a D, or a whiffed scholarship. I know, 9 isn't many credits to be able to drop, but if you think it always could worse, you won't ever use that safety, KWIM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in NC Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 No ethical prof grades on a bell curve. My husband teaches engineering courses and he does grade on the curve. Students usually cluster in in his classes so the breaks are clean. There is a tremendous amount of material to cover and the students have ample opportunity to show performance. On the other hand, he is teaching mid level course and he is pretty clear on his standards. He bends over backwards to make sure they have plenty of practice problems and he is highly regarded by his student, i.e. he is not an *******. Ds has concluded that this is going to be a bell-curve deal, that the prof will probably only give out six As, many more Bs and Cs, although he hasn't stated that explicitly. Well, assuming makes as ass out our u and me. He needs to politely ask for clarification. (Believe me, politeness goes a long way). Perhaps this professor is grading by the cluster. After giving the professor a chance to explain and actually receiving the dreaded B, he can appeal to the department head. This should be done ONLY after you are sure that the grade will be a B. Students can get a cry baby reputation. If he does wind up with the B, he will have to deal with it. We have all had to deal with difficult professors. The injustice stings. I am still ticked about Professor Brahman Analytical Chemistry class that he did me wrong by and that was in 1992. As to failing 75% of the class, well, the department chair would get involved at this level. A high failure rate is reviewed on the departmental level. I think the professor is trying to scare some of the kids. The best advise I can give to an engineering major, (BSChE '92 myself) is to connect with a good advisor who can help him maneuver through the program. They can help him out with scholarship issues and help him select the right professors. Let us know how it turns out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-FL Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 I was just speaking to my sister regarding this. Her ds is a Junior & an engineering major. According to his experience, MANY profs. do this. They plan on the most of the class failing, but saving the average by grading on the curve. Says it toughens them up for the real world!???!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in NC Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 FWIW, there is a 60% drop out rate for engineering schools of freshman to seniors. Not everyone will make it in the program and there will be "weed out" classes. They will push him to his limits. For every hour you spend in class, you should expect to spend 3-4 hours of studying. Maybe that is why most engineers have a certain personality.:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in IL Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 As to failing 75% of the class, well, the department chair would get involved at this level. A high failure rate is reviewed on the departmental level. In one of my first semester freshman classes of about 25, only 2 people passed, one with an A who had previously taken a similar class at cc, and one with a C. The rest of us failed (I didn't even know you could drop a class otherwise I would have). It took years before the university fired the prof. after many more students suffered under him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 1. Tell ds that sometimes students work extremely hard and still don't get the grades they really deserve, but that it evens out in the end and a B is not the end of the world. I would probably stop there, unless ds were extremely bent out of shape about this. If so, I'd go to #2. Good advice. Two things for the future. Get to know some students who have been around and will be flattered for info on what Nutty Professors to avoid. Some are just incurable. Two, if your son gets Nutty (i.e. grandiose, controlling, flakey etc) vibes from a new teacher, ask around immediately and drop if necessary. I was really downed by one, the next time I got one who said something like "every time I come to a part in the lecture where there are three points to be made, I'll change it to four and see what I can come up with while I talk" I was out of there. Ye Gads, what Lunacy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CookieMonster Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 No ethical prof grades on a bell curve. :iagree: Thank you. I have had many a tirade with my dh over this issue. (As in, he watches me get all hot under the collar and rant and rave.) He, unfortunately, had a prof who graded on a strict bell-curve. (An Engineering Major at what used to be an Engineering University.) He could have gotten a 0 on his final exam and still left the class with a solid C grade. (And not because he got A's on everything else all semester. He got bell-curve C's on everything.) :001_huh: I, being an education major, never experienced such idiocy. There are several very good reasons why bell-curves are not proper grading mechanisms for the college classroom. But, I am getting all boiled just typing what I have, so I'm going to back off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 There is a website where professors are rated by students. Someone posted that she carefully checks out every professor on that website before her son (who has some learning disabilities) signs up for a class. Does anyone know the name of that website? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in IL Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 There is a website where professors are rated by students. Someone posted that she carefully checks out every professor on that website before her son (who has some learning disabilities) signs up for a class. Does anyone know the name of that website? http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in NC Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 :iagree: I, being an education major, never experienced such idiocy. There are several very good reasons why bell-curves are not proper grading mechanisms for the college classroom. But, I am getting all boiled just typing what I have, so I'm going to back off. Let me explain why the bell curve is used in engineering. Engineering is more about learning to think rather than learning facts and reguritating it back. Even semester the professor has to come up with a new project. The difficulty of the project will change year to year. You could have a year where everyone gets an F. But if it is a more difficult project, it even outs with a curve. This allows the professor to push to students to their potential without worrying so much about actual grades. My DH got a 69 on an exam once, that was the top grade. He got an A. College should be about stretching your mind, not about making an A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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