What if your child is horrible at Grammar?

[TXMary2]

DS is only a 9th grader, but I am worried about the SAT. He is fine with literature and literary elements. His comprehension is fine. His writing is improving. His Grammar su**s. I am getting distraught over it.

 

When we started homeschooling in the 4th grade we used BJU Grammar. It was painful. One year we did Sonlight LA and I feel it was a year that was wasted, but I can't do anything about that now. After that we did Keys to Good Language for two years and it was OK. We started this year with R & S Grade 7 per the WTM recommendation. It is a disaster. He cannot retain the parts of speech - except nouns - if I ask him what a noun is he can tell me. Anything else - forget it. I am beside myself. He is not stupid, but for whatever reason he REFUSES to learn grammar.

 

I made the decision to switch to CLE LA. He is currently doing the diagnostic test for Level 500 (aka 5th grade!) and it isn't looking good. How in the world is he going to catch up?

[Jane in NC]

Another door to grammar is through foreign language. Have you considered adding this?

[regentrude]

What exactly do you mean by being "horrible at grammar"? Is he bad at formal grammar, analyzing sentences etc? Or is he using the English language incorrectly when he reads and writes?

I see these as two entirely different issues.

To do well on the SAT, correct use of grammar is all that matters - there are no sentences to diagram.

[Jamee]

This sounds like my DS.:confused: We recently started Winston Grammar. He likes it and so far so good, he's only 5th grade though. I don't understand why it's so hard to grasp. When I ask him for the subject of the sentence, he'd tell me "is." A verb, "I." I know it's not a memorization thing since he can tell me every different kind of insect that's out there.

[TXMary2]

What exactly do you mean by being "horrible at grammar"? Is he bad at formal grammar, analyzing sentences etc? Or is he using the English language incorrectly when he reads and writes?

I see these as two entirely different issues.

To do well on the SAT, correct use of grammar is all that matters - there are no sentences to diagram.

 

He is fine when he writes and speaks. By "horrible" I mean he can't diagram sentences correctly, can't define the parts of speech or identify them in assignments without lots of prodding from me. He can't correctly pick out the subject or predicate of a sentence. If it is something simple like choosing the correct word or phrase from multiple choice he can do that with no problem.

[TXMary2]

Another door to grammar is through foreign language. Have you considered adding this?

 

He'll be starting Foreign Language next year.

[FloridaLisa]

Mary,

 

Have you seen Shurley English? It will teach the student to break a sentence into its parts, similar to diagramming, but through oral parsing. The Shurley method makes so much sense to me and it's how I think when I'm working through a sentence. After Shurley, we move into R & S and diagramming, but we still parse at times b/c it's quick and easy.

 

Shurley will teach each part of a sentence, as well as direct and indirect objects, appositivites and a few other fundamental concepts. It doesn't go as deep as R&S, but it lays a wonderful foundation.

 

HTH,

Lisa

[Laura Corin]

He is fine when he writes and speaks. By "horrible" I mean he can't diagram sentences correctly, can't define the parts of speech or identify them in assignments without lots of prodding from me. He can't correctly pick out the subject or predicate of a sentence. If it is something simple like choosing the correct word or phrase from multiple choice he can do that with no problem.

 

Last time I looked at it, you could answer the questions by knowing the correct way to write, irrespective of whether you could diagram, analyse, etc.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Has he done any Latin?

 

Honestly, English grammar is so screwed up, it's just hard to learn. Sure, French grammar has tricky rules, but the basis is easier. A noun is always a noun, and cannot be used as a adjective, like in English. The nature of words (parts of speech?) are fixed and immutable. Not so in English. I got freaked out the first time I saw that 'hockey' could be an adjective. Huh? (the hockey player falls on the ice, while playing hockey). Hockey is a noun and an adjective? That's so counter-intuitive.

 

I would do a quick one year study of Latin, if you haven't done so, before starting a foreign language. Since the goal of Latin is not to learn to speak it fluently, you can concentrate on vocab and grammar, and only those.

[emubird]

He is fine when he writes and speaks. By "horrible" I mean he can't diagram sentences correctly, can't define the parts of speech or identify them in assignments without lots of prodding from me. He can't correctly pick out the subject or predicate of a sentence. If it is something simple like choosing the correct word or phrase from multiple choice he can do that with no problem.

 

He should do just fine on the SAT, then. I'd get some SAT practice tests and see how he does. The SAT doesn't ask any of the things that he's having trouble with, and knowing them won't help one bit on that test.

 

The best thing for doing well on the SAT is just to read decent, modern writing. Older writing isn't quite so helpful because the rules have changed to some extent.

[forty-two]

He should do just fine on the SAT, then. I'd get some SAT practice tests and see how he does. The SAT doesn't ask any of the things that he's having trouble with, and knowing them won't help one bit on that test.

 

The best thing for doing well on the SAT is just to read decent, modern writing. Older writing isn't quite so helpful because the rules have changed to some extent.

Maybe I read too much older writing, then ;).

 

At any rate, an intuitive sense of grammar only took me so far on the the multiple choice writing section on the PSAT (I was part of the first group to go through it) - killed my chances of making National Merit Semifinalist :glare: (one lousy point! Still bugs me a bit :tongue_smilie:). I'd thought I'd be fine, since I had a good sense of what sounds right - but I was wrong. A lot of the questions were very tricky when all you had to go on was "does it sound right?" - I would have done much better if I'd had some actual conscious grammar knowledge to fall back on.

[TXMary2]

He should do just fine on the SAT, then. I'd get some SAT practice tests and see how he does. The SAT doesn't ask any of the things that he's having trouble with, and knowing them won't help one bit on that test.

 

The best thing for doing well on the SAT is just to read decent, modern writing. Older writing isn't quite so helpful because the rules have changed to some extent.

 

Thanks. I think I will order the books on College Board. Right now we do the SAT question of the day and so far, so good, but I think having some practice tests would be helpful.

[LittleHouseHomeschool]

Winston Grammar will catch him up in a year. I'm so sorry I wasted so much time with other grammar curriculum over the years.

 

We used Winston Grammar Basic and then followed with Winston Grammar Advanced. It took my high schooler and middle schooler about 10 weeks to finish basic. We took a break over the summer and they are now about half way through Advanced. I'm absolutely thrilled with the results.

 

Edited to add: There is no grammar on the SAT. No parts of speech, nothing like that. I encourage you to get an SAT practice book so you better know what he needs. But beyond that, he still needs grammar. Freshman English, at least in our neck of the woods, is heavy in grammar.

Edited November 30, 2010 by LittleHouseHomeschool

[Kates]

I would also say to work with Latin - Latin Alive would be a good one to use. The grammar with Latin is extremely close to English (it's what our grammar is largely based on), but it's easier to retain because he'll actually be using it for something he doesn't already "know".

 

Grammar is often difficult in you native tongue because you don't actually "need" to learn it in order to speak, read, or write. It's hard to analyze something that you've already learned intuitively. When you apply it to a foreign language, it suddenly becomes more clear. Because Latin is so methodical and pattern-based, it's often the easiest one to start with.

 

I teach Latin on both middle- and high-school levels, and this is what I've seen time and again...that kids with no (or very little) prior grammar understanding suddenly "get it" - because they have a reason to.

[TXMary2]

I would also say to work with Latin - Latin Alive would be a good one to use. The grammar with Latin is extremely close to English (it's what our grammar is largely based on), but it's easier to retain because he'll actually be using it for something he doesn't already "know".

 

Grammar is often difficult in you native tongue because you don't actually "need" to learn it in order to speak, read, or write. It's hard to analyze something that you've already learned intuitively. When you apply it to a foreign language, it suddenly becomes more clear. Because Latin is so methodical and pattern-based, it's often the easiest one to start with.

 

I teach Latin on both middle- and high-school levels, and this is what I've seen time and again...that kids with no (or very little) prior grammar understanding suddenly "get it" - because they have a reason to.

 

I haven't heard of Latin Alive.......what about the Latin from Memoria Press?

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Grammar is often difficult in you native tongue because you don't actually "need" to learn it in order to speak, read, or write.

 

Just to be nitpicking here... :lol:

 

Grammar is often difficult if English is your native tongue. Most other native tongues (especially European langauges) *require* grammar in order to be able to write it properly. French kids all start grammar in grade 1 because everyone needs grammar to be able to write French, and will continue working on grammar till the end of high school. That can't be said about many English schools. In fact, there's rarely a 'spelling' class in French schools, there's some spelling that has to be learned in the lower grades, but tons of grammar. If kids aged 6 can tell the difference between a noun and a a verb, or an adjective, that's because the concept is *clearer* in French than it is in English.

 

Having problems with grammar for an English child is mostly due to the nature of the English language.

 

End of nitpicking... :tongue_smilie:

[Kates]

I haven't heard of Latin Alive.......what about the Latin from Memoria Press?

 

I personally can't stand the MP Latin...I actually had to rewrite it in order to teach it. At the time, it was one of the only programs out there, so I didn't have a whole lot of choice. I have several friends who don't have a Latin or languages background who found it difficult to work with.

 

Latin Alive is from Classical Academic Press, it's extremely user friendly and easy to understand. It's challenging, but you can take it at your own pace, and there are good DVD classes available for it. (Several of my former high school level students are actually a bit jealous that my current students are using it...they took Latin before Latin Alive was written, and like it a lot better than what they used.)

[Kates]

Just to be nitpicking here... :lol:

 

Grammar is often difficult if English is your native tongue. Most other native tongues (especially European langauges) *require* grammar in order to be able to write it properly. French kids all start grammar in grade 1 because everyone needs grammar to be able to write French, and will continue working on grammar till the end of high school. That can't be said about many English schools. In fact, there's rarely a 'spelling' class in French schools, there's some spelling that has to be learned in the lower grades, but tons of grammar. If kids aged 6 can tell the difference between a noun and a a verb, or an adjective, that's because the concept is *clearer* in French than it is in English.

 

Having problems with grammar for an English child is mostly due to the nature of the English language.

 

End of nitpicking... :tongue_smilie:

 

I totally agree - many European languages are difficult at best without a solid understanding of grammar. English, on the other hand, is a royal pain in the backside because it's such a conglomeration of languages that the patterns and rules are fairly vague...and a lot of English-speaking kids (at least in America, I can't speak for elsewhere) honestly don't care about learning grammar, since they can at least speak and read easily without it. Learning the grammar in order to learn Latin sets them up well for both learning the basis of English and the basis of many other languages. Since the OP was talking about English, I kept my comments there :) You make a great point though!

[Jane in NC]

Just to be nitpicking here... :lol:

 

Grammar is often difficult if English is your native tongue. Most other native tongues (especially European langauges) *require* grammar in order to be able to write it properly. French kids all start grammar in grade 1 because everyone needs grammar to be able to write French, and will continue working on grammar till the end of high school. That can't be said about many English schools. In fact, there's rarely a 'spelling' class in French schools, there's some spelling that has to be learned in the lower grades, but tons of grammar. If kids aged 6 can tell the difference between a noun and a a verb, or an adjective, that's because the concept is *clearer* in French than it is in English.

 

Having problems with grammar for an English child is mostly due to the nature of the English language.

 

End of nitpicking... :tongue_smilie:

 

Question. (Admittedly this may not be the place for asking this question as I am abandoning the OP's topic.)

 

Is the problem English in general or is it American English? I find that American speakers use English so imprecisely. For example, consider the difference in verb tenses which can be subtle but form a precision in describing action. I wonder how many Americans can distinguish between the meanings of I run, I was running, I ran, I have run, I had run, etc. I sometimes think that this is the problem when American students are presented with questions of grammar both within their native language studies or that of a foreign language.

 

The second part of the question is for the Brits on board: Do British students have similar problems with English grammar? Is it indeed the nature of the language itself or is the problem how the language is used within a culture?

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

The second part of the question is for the Brits on board: Do British students have similar problems with English grammar? Is it indeed the nature of the language itself or is the problem how the language is used within a culture?

 

Well I'm not a Brit but all my English teachers came from England, and that's where my parents sent me when I was failing English in school. So British English is what I first learnt.

 

I would say it's the nature of the language. What makes it easy to use, makes its grammar hard to learn. Take the word 'dog' (there's one sleeping on my foot right now).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dog

 

It can be a noun, like the animal cutting all blood supplies to my toes, it can be a verb (to dog a subject, to avoid a subject), it can be an adjective (don't touch the dog food). While the verb is fairly easy to explain, the adjective and the noun both refer to the same animal. Instinctively, the child knows that 'dog food means the food should be eaten by a dog and thus will say they're both nouns. They both point to a 'person, place, thing, or idea'. And in other European languages, the child would be right! In French we would say 'the food for the dog'. And then, in English, there's a slight difference between 'dog food' and 'dog's food'. 'Don't touch the dog's food' isn't quite the same as 'don't touch the dog food'.

 

Weird, weird, weird language... :tongue_smilie:

 

 

And then take the word 'knock'.

knock on wood

knock at the door

knock someone up (with different meanings whether you're East or West of the Atlantic)

knock someone down

 

Or 'snow'

it's snowing

there's snow on the job

he did a horrendous snow job

and then you get snowflake, but not snow flake (like we did with dog food). Snow is not an adjective, snowsuit, snowman, it's always added to the other noun to create a new noun, but it's not an adjective. Unless you're talking about a snow ball. DUH! Oops, there's my exception. And again, people will write snowball too. And what about this spelling? snow-tire

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/snow-tire

 

Argh, it's enough to drive everyone and anyone crazy.

[Jane in NC]

 

Weird, weird, weird language... :tongue_smilie:

 

 

Argh, it's enough to drive everyone and anyone crazy.

 

Agreed!

 

Personally, I achieved a greater understanding of English by studying foreign language which is why I made that recommendation to the OP.

 

Jane (attempting to return this part of the thread to the OP's question)

[Laura Corin]

 

The second part of the question is for the Brits on board: Do British students have similar problems with English grammar? Is it indeed the nature of the language itself or is the problem how the language is used within a culture?

 

Laura