Chemistry people, Apologia Chemistry input please

[Susan C.]

Hi all,

Dd is taking Apologia Chemistry with VHSG. It is a stretch for her, but she is doing well with it. It is a little hard, so it takes a good chunk of time for her to do it. She has been trying to keep up with the class, but they only take two weeks per module. I do remember when Ds did it (no outside class) that we took a little over two weeks per module, sometimes even three weeks. So, to keep up, we haven't done any labs....... The class says they are for extra credit, but I have to have a lab science on her transcript.

 

I am trying to figure out how to work this out..... dd really wants to keep up because it is her help and the pace does keep her moving. So, I need to clip the labs back and/or skip a few modules. I am completely alright with cutting one-third to one-half of the labs out and taking out up to four modules. I can probably figure out the labs (but if anyone knows ones I can skip I am all ears), but since I am not a chemistry person, I don't want to take out a module that is important for later modules or one that is a basic chemistry principle. She will not be taking chemistry again until college (and maybe not even then). She is more creative/liberal arts bent. I think she may have had an easier time with Conceptual Chemistry but she wanted to do VHSG. So, I am after making this Apologia course a little less rigorous. She just started Module 6.

 

For those who don't have a text to look at, the module titles are:

Module 1: Measurement and Units

Module 2: Energy, Heat and Temperature

Module 3: Atoms and Molecules

Module 4: Classifying Matter and Its Changes

Module 5: Counting Molecules and Atoms in Chemical Equations

Module 6: Stoichiometry

Module 7: Atomic Structure

Module 8: Molecular Structure

Module 9: Polyatomic Ions and Molecular Geometry

Module 10: Acid/Base Chemistry

Module 11: The Chemistry of Solutions

Module 12: The Gas Phase

Module 13: Thermodynamics

Module 14: Kinetics

Module 15: Chemical Equilibrium

Module 16: Reduction/Oxidation Reactions

 

 

Thank you!

[Leonor]

This is a good question. I am looking forward to the replies.

 

I had previously posted a thread about help with Apologia Chemistry.

 

Our coop has been doing a module a week.

 

We just finished module 8 in 12 weeks which includes 2 weeks of quarterly tests.

 

:bigear:

[Lori D.]

We made it work by taking 1.25 years to do it all. Last year older DS did Apologia Chemistry, chapters 1-12. He took 9 weeks at the start of this year to finish it. This allowed him a more relaxed pace to do the text, the tests, and the experiments, PLUS, all the other classes and activities he was involved with.

 

However, DS is NOT heading into a math/science field (instead, media arts), and our state only requires 3 lab sciences. We've done it this way:

 

gr. 9

- Biology = 0.66 credit (chapters 1-10; Apologia Biology)

 

gr. 10

- Biology = 0.33 credit (chapters 11-16; Apologia Biology)

- Anatomy = 0.5 credit (anatomy section of Prentice-Hall Biology)

 

gr. 11

- Chemistry = 0.75 credit (chapters 1-12, Apologia Chemistry)

 

gr. 12

- Chemistry = 0.25 credit (chapters 13-16, Apologia Chemistry)

- Physics = 0.5 to 0.75 credit (Conceptual Physics) -- in process

 

On the transcript, I list everything by subject, not by year, so his sciences will look like:

 

Biology = 1.0 credit

Anatomy = 0.5 credit

Chemistry = 1.0 credit

Physics = (0.5 or 0.75) credit

[Hillary in KS]

We are doing Apologia Chemistry independently. We complete one module every two weeks, including the labs.

 

Ds spends about an hour a day, three days a week on the bookwork (reading the chapter, answering OYO questions, completing review questions and practice problems). Every Friday, he either takes a test or does the lab and completes a lab report. (We alternate them.) It hasn't been overwhelming, but he's rather a science-y kid.

 

But I guess I'm not clear on what you're wanting to accomplish. If she wants to keep up with the class, how will skipping labs and modules help with that?

 

If you need a lab credit on her transcript, you're going to have to do the labs. There's no way around that. If you need a science credit on her transcript, you're going to have to cover the material. There's no way around that. We're only finishing module 6 right now, but so far all of the material builds on itself, so it's hard to cut out a whole chapter.

 

It looks like you have two choices:

 

If she wants to keep the class she needs to figure out a way to devote more time to it. That might mean doing some schoolwork in the evening or on the weekends.

 

If she doesn't want to do that, then I would recommend dropping the class and continue chemistry on your own at home. You can do all of the required work that way, complete all of the labs and tests, and not have to worry about cutting material.

 

If you carry some of the class over into another year (as a previous poster suggested) that's fine. Personally, I'd continue chemistry into the summer and get it done. I think it would be a hard class to come back to after a summer off.

[Susan C.]

Ok, rewording would be I may want to not do the things that are in Apologia that are not in Conceptual Chemistry. Either would be a chemistry credit. We are working hard, just don't want so much to be on chemistry. We want to cover the subject, but do need to reign it in to have time for everything else we are doing. To add the labs and still complete in two weeks will bump another subject out.

 

We are planning anatomy next year for her senior year, so it isn't an option to carry chemistry to next year. Most public and private schooled students don't finish their texts. A lot of the time we do finish, but know if we come close it is not the end of the world.

 

Maybe I'll get lucky and get someone who has done both Apologia Chemistry and Conceptual Chemistry and knows if there is anything I can pass by!

[Kendall]

This is probably not worth mentioning, but you could have her do the labs at her own pace not worrying about which module the class is on, or do them all at the end or during weeks the class doesn't meet. They don't HAVE to be done the weeks the material is covered. Also I don't know how many labs count as a lab course, but there probably isn't a set number that you have to do.

 

Just a few thoughts

[Hillary in KS]

We are planning anatomy next year for her senior year, so it isn't an option to carry chemistry to next year. Most public and private schooled students don't finish their texts. A lot of the time we do finish, but know if we come close it is not the end of the world.

 

Maybe I'll get lucky and get someone who has done both Apologia Chemistry and Conceptual Chemistry and knows if there is anything I can pass by!

 

I haven't done Conceptual Chemistry, so I cannot compare them. Sorry.

 

Again, you may want to consider having her finish Chemistry up in the summer.

[Chris in VA]

Ok, rewording would be I may want to not do the things that are in Apologia that are not in Conceptual Chemistry. Either would be a chemistry credit. We are working hard, just don't want so much to be on chemistry. We want to cover the subject, but do need to reign it in to have time for everything else we are doing. To add the labs and still complete in two weeks will bump another subject out.

 

We are planning anatomy next year for her senior year, so it isn't an option to carry chemistry to next year. Most public and private schooled students don't finish their texts. A lot of the time we do finish, but know if we come close it is not the end of the world.

 

Maybe I'll get lucky and get someone who has done both Apologia Chemistry and Conceptual Chemistry and knows if there is anything I can pass by!

 

But Apologia is basic, basic chem. It may be difficult for individual students, but it is NOT considered rigorous by high school standards. And, the course IS designed to be covered completely, unlike some chem texts--you really can't skip much if anything and have a high school level course.

 

Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear.

 

We had a challenge with foreign language--different subject, but I can relate to having a course that is tough for my own child but not considered tough compared to other choices for curriculum.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

But Apologia is basic, basic chem. It may be difficult for individual students, but it is NOT considered rigorous by high school standards. And, the course IS designed to be covered completely, unlike some chem texts--you really can't skip much if anything and have a high school level course.

 

Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear.

 

We had a challenge with foreign language--different subject, but I can relate to having a course that is tough for my own child but not considered tough compared to other choices for curriculum.

 

:iagree:

[Julie in MN]

If you need a lab credit on her transcript, you're going to have to do the labs. There's no way around that. If you need a science credit on her transcript, you're going to have to cover the material. There's no way around that. We're only finishing module 6 right now, but so far all of the material builds on itself, so it's hard to cut out a whole chapter.

 

It looks like you have two choices:

 

Agreeing that you have to do labs to get credit for lab.

 

I was thinking another choice would be to do the book credit now, and do a lab credit later. Something like Experiences in Chemistry by Julicher or another lab program could be done separately.

[Hillary in KS]

But Apologia is basic, basic chem. It may be difficult for individual students, but it is NOT considered rigorous by high school standards. And, the course IS designed to be covered completely, unlike some chem texts--you really can't skip much if anything and have a high school level course.

 

Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear.

 

We had a challenge with foreign language--different subject, but I can relate to having a course that is tough for my own child but not considered tough compared to other choices for curriculum.

 

:iagree:

[Lori D.]

Ok, rewording would be I may want to not do the things that are in Apologia that are not in Conceptual Chemistry....

Maybe I'll get lucky and get someone who has done both Apologia Chemistry and Conceptual Chemistry and knows if there is anything I can pass by!

 

 

Last year we did Apologia Chemistry (AC) with older DS; this year we're doing Conceptual Chemistry (CC) with younger DS. Here's a my quick comparison:

 

Chapters 1-11 and 18 in CC are very like the material covered in AC.

 

Then in CC, chapters 12, 13, and parts of 15 are much like chapters in Apologia Biology (the "chemistry in biology" of what happens in cells).

 

Chapter 14 of CC is on the chemistry of drugs, which seems to me to be the only chapter that has significantly different material not covered in AC.

 

And chapters 16 and 17 of CC are more typically earth science topics -- water cycle and the atmosphere, while chapter 19 covers energy resources, which is more typically a physics topic. Chapter 14 is on the chemistry of drugs, which was the only chapter.

 

Just a quick comparison! Warmly, Lori D.

[Leonor]

It's funny how there are two extremes on the spectrum regarding Apologia Chemistry.

 

On one end is that it is basic. On the other, that it prepares them for college. I guess it is probably basic if you plan to pursue a career in the sciences that includes chemistry.

 

The textbook itself says it is not an easy course.

 

I wrote before how we are doing this at a coop that meets once a week and basically covering 1 module a week including labs. Students who are good in science and math are having a hard time.

 

One of them was at the cc studying when another homeschooled student came by and took a look at the module test. Said student is an extremely bright student who has excelled in all subjects and is doing course work at the cc. He had not done chemistry at home and took the high school equivalent at the cc. He has also taken other chemistry courses at the cc. He excels in science and math. When he looked at the module test he said that is not what they did in the high school equivalent intro to chemistry class at the community college. According to him, Apologia was more difficult.

 

I understand you not wanting to spend so much time on Chemistry. We are having the same problem covering one module a week and labs at the coop. My son will never need to do chemistry again. He did want to learn it. He is understanding the concepts. However, he is spending a lot of time. He has other rigorous courses in his field of interest in which he excels. APUSH with PA Homeschoolers alone takes up a lot of time. However, I am very please that he is doing very well in that. Especially, when it is his field of interest. He also excels in speech and debate and when tournaments start we won't have the time.

 

That is the beauty of homeschooling. Focus on the education you want her to have. Lori D. has a lot of great advice. I have purchased Conceptual Chemistry at a very cheap price and I'm goint so see what we will do.

 

He can continue attending the coop and do the labs. The labs for Apologia are not even that many or that great. I can choose to test him otherwise. It is very difficult to do one module a week w/labs on 1 hour a day. I had not planned for more than that in his schedule.

 

I'm not sure what VHSG is. Is it just like an unaccredited coop. Can she drop it and you do it at your pace? Can you switch to Conceptual Chemistry?

[Susan C.]

Last year we did Apologia Chemistry (AC) with older DS; this year we're doing Conceptual Chemistry (CC) with younger DS. Here's a my quick comparison:

 

Chapters 1-11 and 18 in CC are very like the material covered in AC.

 

Then in CC, chapters 12, 13, and parts of 15 are much like chapters in Apologia Biology (the "chemistry in biology" of what happens in cells).

 

Chapter 14 of CC is on the chemistry of drugs, which seems to me to be the only chapter that has significantly different material not covered in AC.

 

And chapters 16 and 17 of CC are more typically earth science topics -- water cycle and the atmosphere, while chapter 19 covers energy resources, which is more typically a physics topic. Chapter 14 is on the chemistry of drugs, which was the only chapter.

 

Just a quick comparison! Warmly, Lori D.

 

Ok, Apologia is same in content of CC 1-11 and 18, but more difficult. Is the difference all of the math problems?

 

Thank you everyone else, I am NOT trying to get out of all of the labs, I know they are needed. I am just trying to see if any are unnecessary. I didn't say before, but dd remembers ds doing the labs (she watched) when he did the course five years ago. So the very basic, see what color it turns type of labs may be unnecessary.

[Susan C.]

Leanor,

Please let me know your take on the CC! Thanks!

[Lori D.]

Ok, Apologia is same in content of CC 1-11 and 18, but more difficult. Is the difference all of the math problems?

 

 

Yes, that, and the Apologia chapters go into a bit more depth than Conceptual Chemistry on the content.

[Susan C.]

Thanks Lori D.!

 

How about the experiments in CC? Same number, same type? You can generalize, you don't have to list them, its too close to Thanksgiving :)

[jld]

Dd15 took Chem I from Apologia last year, and did not do any of the experiments. She read them all, and said they were not worth doing, as most of them she had already done at a younger age, or was familiar with. This year she is doing the Chem II course, and plans to do the experiments when we go back to America in Sept., as they look more worthwhile.

 

She also said every chapter of the Chem I book needs to be done. She did a module a week, and really liked that pace, as it went quickly enough to remain exciting. She spent two hours a day, 6 days a week on Chem I.

 

Dd strongly encourages you to do every module, as she believes every one is important for an understanding of basic chemistry.

[FaithManor]

DD did a module every two weeks in both Apologia chem and Advanced Chem. She spent a minimum of one hour per day and sometimes 2. -2.5 per day and she is very math oriented...excellent mathematician. But, she was going into the medical field and wanted to make sure she fully digested every concept so she spent a lot of time studying and keeping a thorough notebook which she has since consulted for her pharmacology and organic chem classes.

 

The math is so important. I know a lot of people claim Apologia chem is not college preparative. The first book alone is general chem but it is math based. It will prepare a non science major for more than they will ever encounter in their science gen-ed requirement. When combined with his advanced chem class, it is very preparative.

 

Conceptual Chemistry is not....there, I said it. If a science major entered college with only conceptual chemistry as his/her chem background, this person will need to take the first semester of college chem. That's fine. There is nothing wrong with taking the prerequisites but one must consider that without the math based chem background, the student in college will be covering the math taught in the Apologia chem in one semester instead of two. So, I would be very, very cautious about using conceptual chem if there is any chance that the student will have to take college chem. It's better to struggle with it and at least get some of the concepts now and be exposed to the math driven portion of chemistry, than to be blindsided with it in college when its costs so dearly financially to take the class and in some majors, one can not earn less than an 80% if it is a prerequisite to something important in their major. I've known too many kids who've paid to retake college chem and were shocked because they'd taken high school chemistry and thought they'd be prepared. But, because they were taught a non-math course, they couldn't cut it.

 

I know that will upset fans of conceptual chemistry. Unfortunately, chemistry is applied mathematics.

 

To the OP, I would suggest that you increase the amount of time per day that your student works on the material or not do it through a co-op so she can take longer to complete each module. Co-ops are nice, but again, just like school, the teacher sets the pace and everyone was meet that pace regardless of whether it is too slow or too fast for them. She needs to complete the labs and keep a lab notebook documenting the processes and results in case you need to "show" proof of a lab science.

 

DD did not do the Apologia labs because being a very scientific household here, she had already done labs at that level at a much younger age. We got out dh's old college chem texts and lab notes and devised our own lab experiences for her.

 

Sorry to be the bearer of not easy to hear news. Also, please note that most community colleges do not offer science majors except the two year ADN. ADN's are not required to have has much chemistry (i.e. preparation for organic chemistry which is brutal) or pharmacology as BSN's so the chemistry classes at most CC's are not nearly as difficult as they are at four year uni's with a full science department.

 

Faith

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

It's funny how there are two extremes on the spectrum regarding Apologia Chemistry.

 

On one end is that it is basic. On the other, that it prepares them for college. I guess it is probably basic if you plan to pursue a career in the sciences that includes chemistry.

 

The textbook itself says it is not an easy course.

 

I wrote before how we are doing this at a coop that meets once a week and basically covering 1 module a week including labs. Students who are good in science and math are having a hard time.

 

One of them was at the cc studying when another homeschooled student came by and took a look at the module test. Said student is an extremely bright student who has excelled in all subjects and is doing course work at the cc. He had not done chemistry at home and took the high school equivalent at the cc. He has also taken other chemistry courses at the cc. He excels in science and math. When he looked at the module test he said that is not what they did in the high school equivalent intro to chemistry class at the community college. According to him, Apologia was more difficult.

 

I understand you not wanting to spend so much time on Chemistry. We are having the same problem covering one module a week and labs at the coop. My son will never need to do chemistry again. He did want to learn it. He is understanding the concepts. However, he is spending a lot of time. He has other rigorous courses in his field of interest in which he excels. APUSH with PA Homeschoolers alone takes up a lot of time. However, I am very please that he is doing very well in that. Especially, when it is his field of interest. He also excels in speech and debate and when tournaments start we won't have the time.

 

That is the beauty of homeschooling. Focus on the education you want her to have. Lori D. has a lot of great advice. I have purchased Conceptual Chemistry at a very cheap price and I'm goint so see what we will do.

 

He can continue attending the coop and do the labs. The labs for Apologia are not even that many or that great. I can choose to test him otherwise. It is very difficult to do one module a week w/labs on 1 hour a day. I had not planned for more than that in his schedule.

 

I'm not sure what VHSG is. Is it just like an unaccredited coop. Can she drop it and you do it at your pace? Can you switch to Conceptual Chemistry?

I think it's a basic chemistry course that is college preparatory. What I mean by basic is that there isn't anything "extra" that could be left out.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

DD did a module every two weeks in both Apologia chem and Advanced Chem. She spent a minimum of one hour per day and sometimes 2. -2.5 per day and she is very math oriented...excellent mathematician. But, she was going into the medical field and wanted to make sure she fully digested every concept so she spent a lot of time studying and keeping a thorough notebook which she has since consulted for her pharmacology and organic chem classes.

 

The math is so important. I know a lot of people claim Apologia chem is not college preparative. The first book alone is general chem but it is math based. It will prepare a non science major for more than they will ever encounter in their science gen-ed requirement. When combined with his advanced chem class, it is very preparative.

 

Conceptual Chemistry is not....there, I said it. If a science major entered college with only conceptual chemistry as his/her chem background, this person will need to take the first semester of college chem. That's fine. There is nothing wrong with taking the prerequisites but one must consider that without the math based chem background, the student in college will be covering the math taught in the Apologia chem in one semester instead of two. So, I would be very, very cautious about using conceptual chem if there is any chance that the student will have to take college chem. It's better to struggle with it and at least get some of the concepts now and be exposed to the math driven portion of chemistry, than to be blindsided with it in college when its costs so dearly financially to take the class and in some majors, one can not earn less than an 80% if it is a prerequisite to something important in their major. I've known too many kids who've paid to retake college chem and were shocked because they'd taken high school chemistry and thought they'd be prepared. But, because they were taught a non-math course, they couldn't cut it.

 

I know that will upset fans of conceptual chemistry. Unfortunately, chemistry is applied mathematics.

 

To the OP, I would suggest that you increase the amount of time per day that your student works on the material or not do it through a co-op so she can take longer to complete each module. Co-ops are nice, but again, just like school, the teacher sets the pace and everyone was meet that pace regardless of whether it is too slow or too fast for them. She needs to complete the labs and keep a lab notebook documenting the processes and results in case you need to "show" proof of a lab science.

 

DD did not do the Apologia labs because being a very scientific household here, she had already done labs at that level at a much younger age. We got out dh's old college chem texts and lab notes and devised our own lab experiences for her.

 

Sorry to be the bearer of not easy to hear news. Also, please note that most community colleges do not offer science majors except the two year ADN. ADN's are not required to have has much chemistry (i.e. preparation for organic chemistry which is brutal) or pharmacology as BSN's so the chemistry classes at most CC's are not nearly as difficult as they are at four year uni's with a full science department.

 

Faith

Thanks Faith. That was my understanding of conceptual chemistry but I wasn't completely certain.

[Susan C.]

I do appreciate the dialogue, even though it is all over the place! :)

 

I did 14 of the 16 modules with ds five years ago (there were two that a chemistry teacher told me were traditionally Chem. 2 material, but I don't remember off hand which they were, they are both near the end of the text), and being able to take a day or two (or a week extra in the few killer modules) over the two weeks did help tremendously. Both of my dc are good students, but are methodical about their studies, and it takes the time it takes. They are/were both very thorough, and won't move on until they get it. They are like that in every subject. It does lend to not having a life, and I do struggle with that and want balance (whatever that is, right?!?) Somehow we will get dd caught up on the experiments.

[Lori D.]

No, the experiments in Apologia Chemistry are a bit more involved and laid out in a slightly more formal manner. The experiments in Conceptual Chemistry are extremely fast and simple (5 minutes or less) and while they all WORK and are very cool, I would not call them labs, but rather fast visual demonstrations along the lines of Bill Nye the Science Guy. For formal lab experiments, you might want to try something like the Micro Chem kit that is the optional / additional lab kit for Apologia.

 

I am sure this is just me not "clicking" with Apologia's written style and textbook layout, BUT... for some reason, all his experiments seem ponderous and unnecessarily formalized, just like the text. Similarly, the informal, accessible, and visual presentation of Conceptual Chemistry's text is carried forward into the experiments as well...

 

There are 30 experiments in the 16 chapters of Apologia (just under an average of 2 per chapter), and 37 hands-on in the 19 chapters of Conceptual (just about on average 2 per chapter).

[Susan C.]

I've done all of Apologia's with ds five years ago, I think all (or most) of them worked. They were fine and sealed concepts of what was read. It usually took more than a class period to do them with doing a lab report.

[Phoatogirl]

We chose not to do chemistry with our 10th grader this year because he is a year behind in math. However, I suppose we should do chemistry next year.

 

What I liked about Apologia Biology was that it was all laid out for homeschooling and it is easy to get the book and teacher manual. What I didn't like about it is there wasn't a connection to real world science. Also, after a semester, I get tired of the same procedure: read, do oyo, do experiment, write it up, do study guide, take test, rinse and repeat every two weeks.

 

My friends 10th grader, who is extremely smart in every subject, has a high A in Apologia Biology and she said that math is a big component of the program. Many of the problems take over a page to solve. This will not be easy form my 10th grader.

 

I've not heard of Conceptual Chemistry. Would it be a better fit that Apologia for my future opera singing/musical theater actor son? I seriously doubt he would choose chemistry to fufil his college science requirement.