Has anyone read Debt-free U, by Zac Bissonnette?

[jld]

Anything you'd like to say about it?

[cathmom]

Dh and I just gave this to our ds for his birthday. I'll have to get his comments on it.

 

He told me he had read about half, and there wasn't anything earth-shattering, except one good idea which I can't remember now.

 

In my defense, this was at like 2 AM!

[cathmom]

The idea was caddying at a golf course for a PT job. I think there's a course near my son's college so he was thinking he might check that out.

[Sarah in FL]

I read it and had my daughter read parts of it. I think that it was good for her to hear from someone besides me and her dad that going into debt for college is a really bad thing. I think that I am more openminded about community college now, and also more likely to think that having the "going far away to college (esp. private college)" experience may be a little bit overrated. I liked his "pay-as-you-go" idea, as well. Overall, it was a very good book.

 

Oh, and my daughter was intrigued by the idea of selling her hair, and plasma donation as a way to make a little extra cash. Not sure how I feel about that! :)

Edited November 18, 2010 by Sarah in FL
Just remembered something else!

[Jane in NC]

Bumping this because the author is the guest on Michelle Singletary's live internet chat today (December 2). Singletary is a personal finance columnist for the Washington Post. You can submit questions or read the transcript after the chat is finished. This link should work. Not sure if one needs to be registered with the Post to participate.

[jld]

Thanks so much, Jane!

 

What an interesting transcript. I'm still reading his book, and feeling guilty for not being as thrifty as he already is at 21.:o

 

He's really concerned about the amount of debt kids have coming out of undergrad, and is urging Americans to reconsider their college shopping habits. It may take a few more years for the American mindset to change, though. And there are certainly people who can afford to spend whatever they want on their kid's undergrad years, and not have to take any loans.

 

All in all, it is an interesting read, and one I would highly recommend for anyone who will need to borrow for the undergrad years.

[creekland]

I think that I am more openminded about community college now, and also more likely to think that having the "going far away to college (esp. private college)" experience may be a little bit overrated.

 

Just be sure to read this thread comparing community college classes to those of better 4 year schools. There are many, many people who do not consider the education equal.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219694&highlight=community+college+ivy

 

Community colleges are fine for certain goals in life, so are very much needed. However, pending goal, they aren't necessarily right for everyone and they certainly won't (usually) give the same level of education. We use them as high school courses and I like them (most of the time). But, all three of my boys are going to 4 year schools, albeit without oodles of debt due to scholarships and some need-based aid. A couple of them will have some debt. My middle son will be looking for a free-ride (most likely). He wants to go to a top med school and that will be expensive (but worth it). Top med schools seldom accept community college credits for pre-med courses. They don't accept AP or Clep either.

 

I asked my oldest if he considered his cc course to have been the same level (rigor) as what he's doing at his 4 year school as a Freshman. It didn't take him long to say, "No." He didn't even have to contemplate the question. He's not at an Ivy or similar either. He absolutely loves being away at his 4 year school (as did hubby and I in our day, though different colleges). The "experience" is just as worth it to us as the education, but I say that without saying I recommend huge amounts of debt.

 

Everyone has to decide what is right for them with their planned goals, but it's a fallacy to think that cc classes substitute educationally (in content) for their 4 year counterparts at many schools. Nonetheless, for those that need "a" degree from "a" school for a job, they will be a less expensive solution. Not all jobs require a 4 year in depth degree.

[jld]

Thanks, creekland, for weighing in on this.

 

I'm only about halfway through the book, but I think that Bissonnette's biggest concern is that too many kids are coming out of school with too much debt, and that it is limiting their choices for the rest of their lives. This debt, and the uncertainty of our economic future in America, may make life very difficult for these young people. I think he feels really bad for those who may not have realized what they were getting themselves into at 18, when they (and maybe their parents) signed those loan papers.

 

I think you and many other people here on the WTM boards have made persuasive arguments for private colleges and have provided legitimate warnings about the varying quality of community colleges. Thanks for the heads-up.:)

 

There's probably a lot more to criticize in Bissonnette's book! He certainly doesn't know everything. But he is thought-provoking, as evidenced, imo, by his being invited to participate in an online chat on the WaPo.

 

Have you read Debt-Free U? Maybe your local library has it. I would be interested in your and other veterans' opinions on it.

[creekland]

Thanks, creekland, for weighing in on this.

 

I'm only about halfway through the book, but I think that Bissonnette's biggest concern is that too many kids are coming out of school with too much debt, and that it is limiting their choices for the rest of their lives. This debt, and the uncertainty of our economic future in America, may make life very difficult for these young people. I think he feels really bad for those who may not have realized what they were getting themselves into at 18, when they (and maybe their parents) signed those loan papers.

 

I think you and many other people here on the WTM boards have made persuasive arguments for private colleges and have provided legitimate warnings about the varying quality of community colleges. Thanks for the heads-up.:)

 

There's probably a lot more to criticize in Bissonnette's book! He certainly doesn't know everything. But he is thought-provoking, as evidenced, imo, by his being invited to participate in an online chat on the WaPo.

 

Have you read Debt-Free U? Maybe your local library has it. I would be interested in your and other veterans' opinions on it.

 

No, I haven't read the book. I also won't say that I 100% disagree with him. I think too many students are graduating with too much debt. We have a girl from our high school that got accepted to a prestigious music college last year and said she is taking on close to $200,000 in debt for a music degree, but in her opinion, it was worth it for the prestige. My daughter would not be doing that. A music degree seldom pays that kind of money as don't several other degrees. However, community college music classes also aren't likely to be up to the same quality, so there is truth to that. It's just a question of whether the experience is worth $200,000 in debt.

 

One needs to understand the pros and cons and carefully consider their situation. If one wants to be a K-12 teacher one isn't likely to need an expensive college (of course, one could argue that teacher's lack of knowledge is part of our educational problem, but...). If one wants to be a military officer, one needs "a" degree, but not an expensive one. There are several other situations that are similar.

 

Otherwise, there are 4 year colleges that offer decent merit and/or need based aid to top students AND provide a top notch education. Those are the best value IMO and the types of schools we are looking for personally. We will contribute some funds far after my boys graduate to keep the opportunities open for future students.

 

If one is an academically average or below average student one really should consider whether a 4 year school is the correct path for their lives at all. Chances are, their talent lies elsewhere. These students shouldn't buy into the fallacy that ALL people need 4 year degrees. They don't.

 

My main beef is anyone (from pro-Ivy to pro-CC) that suggests the "right" path is the same one for everyone or that the paths are equal in educational content or experiences. In this case, it bothers me that someone who might qualify for need-based aid (not necessarily all loans) will overlook that opportunity because someone has suggested a path that is inferior to another that would suit them better simply due to wanting to stay out of all debt. Not all debt is bad. If a student graduates with <50,000 in debt, but in the process lands a job that pays them >10,000 (net) more than they would have otherwise earned (not at all rare) then they are hurting themselves, not helping, in as short as 6 years (allowing for interest).

 

I fully agree that each path is "right" for the "right" person. Community college is all many need or a good starting point for the person who has to fill in gaps first (or academically talented kids who want Honors high school classes). It is probably even equivalent to a lower level 4 year school that would cost much more (and is not a good value IMO). It can shortchange students that qualify for better (and want more). Just because both schools offer English 101 does not mean both classes are similar in content.

[Jane in NC]

 

My main beef is anyone (from pro-Ivy to pro-CC) that suggests the "right" path is the same one for everyone or that the paths are equal in educational content or experiences.

 

Yes, with another beef from my end: every family is also different, both economically and from a priority perspective. Education is a priority for our family. Thus we have saved for our son's college education since his birth.

 

I think that one of the problems with anecdotal information regarding college expenses is simply the fact that families face different economic circumstances. Student A and Student B could both be given $25K in merit aid at a college that costs $40K annually. Student A's family may be able to afford the differential whereas Student B's parents are unable or unwilling to contribute. Student B needs to ask himself if wants to take on $60K in debt for college. If Student B suspects that he is attending a grad or professional program that will leave him with even more debt, he may want to reconsider attending this private college. If Student A's family is in an economic position to assist with his educational expenses, then what is the problem?

 

One assumption that rankles some parents is that they are expected to contribute to the cost of their child's college education. Zac Bissonnette, the author of the book under discussion in this thread, wrote in yesterday's WaPo conversation:

 

What I tell parents is this: Never make long-term sacrifices to pay for college. i.e. NO home equity loans, no retirement account looting. But DO stop goign on vacation for a couple years, drive your car an extra year, and brown bag your lunch. Then set up a separate savings account where you put the savings from that each week. . . If you start doing that freshman year of high school, you'll probably be surprised at how far the savings will go toward paying for an in-state public college.

 

I wonder about his premise. Many parents are already probably brown bagging it, driving their cars several extra years, etc. Particularly in families with multiple children, I do not know if lunch money and skipped vacations will fund much of several state university educations.

 

Nonetheless, I do think that parents need to have honest conversations with their kids about the ramifications of debt. Bissonnette wrote:

 

Be a parent, not a wimp. Recognize that most adolescent brains are not developed enough to understand the long-term consequences of something like $50,000 in student loan debt.

[creekland]

 

One assumption that rankles some parents is that they are expected to contribute to the cost of their child's college education...

 

I wonder about his premise. Many parents are already probably brown bagging it, driving their cars several extra years, etc. Particularly in families with multiple children, I do not know if lunch money and skipped vacations will fund much of several state university educations.

 

Nonetheless, I do think that parents need to have honest conversations with their kids about the ramifications of debt.

 

I agree that most parents are likely already cutting expenses.

 

We are of the mindset that a good college education is important to us. Therefore, we are willing to make more sacrifices than just lunch. I'm also ok with some debt, but that debt depends a LOT on future job expectations which depends a LOT on the degree the student is after. $60,000 of debt is perfectly ok in some instances and not so in others (to us).

 

Hubby had debt when he graduated as an Engineer. We paid it off quickly (5 years) and have been reaping benefits over the years from the degree. He could not have done what he'd done at the level of school he was at if he'd started with two years of cc. It would have been the wrong path for him to follow and some debt didn't set us back at all with his income (from the degree).

 

While we (personally) are having more financial issues now, that's not at all due to his degree (That's helped! I can't imagine where we'd be without it!) nor his schooling choice. It's 100% due to bad investment choices and the economy (how it affected the investments).

[jld]

Jane and creekland, thanks for your posts!

 

Dd and I were talking about the book last night, and dd said she thinks this book is especially helpful for kids who really may not have a clue about finances and higher ed. She has a friend at a private school mentioned in the book who is pursuing a writing degree. This girl will graduate with likely over $100,000 of debt. Her father is unemployed and probably will never work again. Her mother supports the family. They do not own their home and have no retirement savings. The older sister has over $100k in debt from a private university in DC. Dd told me she not only wishes her friend would read this book, but that she had had the courage to talk to her friend about student loan debt last spring, when she graduated from hs. She didn't want to make waves, and didn't think her friend would listen, anyway. But now she hears the concern in her friend's voice when she talks about the debt load, and she wonders if she could have made a difference . . .

 

Clearly there are many fortunate families, American and foreign, who can pay any amount of money to educate their children at very nice colleges. That is truly a blessing. Bissonnette has mentioned several times that these people are not his primary audience. He really seems to be aiming at kids like my dd's friend. He seems pretty sure that these kids do not really know what they are getting into, and he's trying to make sure they at least have a fighting chance at financial stability before they sign their lives away. It's especially sad when parents are not able to give their children informed financial advice. We encourage children to listen to their parents, but let's face it: not all parents are informed role models. I think Bissonnette is just trying to level the field a bit.

 

I know there were some criticisms of the book over on Amazon, some of which Bissonnette responded to. I'm going to go back over there and read some more. Clearly many people are much more knowledgable about higher ed than I am; most of the data given on financial aid, admissions tactics, "levels" of colleges, etc., was new to me. I've found the book an informing read. At the same time, this guy is only 21, and doesn't have the benefit of life experience to maybe counter some of the positions he holds now.

 

Once again, thank you to Jane and creekland for providing perspective!:)

Edited December 4, 2010 by jld
took out names of schools to afford the family privacy

[creekland]

At the same time, this guy is only 21, and doesn't have the benefit of life experience to maybe counter some of the positions he holds now.

 

 

 

That would be a HUGE red flag to me. I know several views I totally believed when I was 21 that I now don't believe at all mainly due to having more laps around the sun (ie experience).

 

That said, there are very few majors or colleges that would be worth 100K in debt to me and I OFTEN talk with students in high school to beware of such levels of debt - esp for low pay or "iffy" majors.

 

I fully agree with you that many students and parents need to learn more about colleges before applying to them. Colleges are in essence a business and few will tell you one shouldn't get into much debt in life. All colleges are NOT equal in rigor, yet many are similar in cost. One may even be superb in a particular major, but not so great in another. Different colleges are well known for need based, merit based or no aid. It helps to know which are which if finances are a concern. Politics vary. Greek life varies. Why pay for an environment that doesn't fit? Why pay for an inferior education (below one's ability)? Why pay a ton for perceived prestige?

 

There are many, many things to consider. Boards like this are a great way to share info AND differing views. ;)

[jld]

There are many, many things to consider. Boards like this are a great way to share info AND differing views. ;)

 

Right on, creekland! And thanks again for sharing yours!:)

[Sarah in FL]

While I probably don't agree with everything Bissonette says, I do think that he makes an extremely compelling point regarding debt. I think there are kids out there who have no idea what this debt will mean to them in the future. And, will not be able to be disciplined to pay it off as fast as they can. We just spent some time with an old friend, a doctor, who is 48 and still paying off school loans! His last daughter is almost graduated from high school, so he is paying for college, a wedding for an older daughter, and his school loans, and watching his salary decreasing due to the changes in reimbursements.

 

Yes, community college and state university are not right for everyone and might be an inferior education, although after I read "Higher Education?" by Andrew Hacker and Claudia Dreifus, that was called into question as well. When it comes right down to it, I believe you have to try to do what it best for your child. Sadly, the school that my dd would love to attend (and we would love for her to) is 58,000/yr, and there is a slim to none chance that she/we will qualify for as much aid as we would need, without accumulating massive debt.

[jld]

I just read over on Amazon that Dave Ramsey has recommended this book. Just fyi.:)

[creekland]

I just read over on Amazon that Dave Ramsey has recommended this book. Just fyi.:)

 

That doesn't surprise me at all. But I also don't 100% agree with DR. I don't find "all" family debt to be bad either. I'd rather have a house mortgage now and enjoy the extra $$ with my boys when they are in the house (going places, doing things - not buying "stuff") and pay the house off when they are gone. I can't get the years with them back later. Being debt free just isn't that important to me compared to the trips we have taken and experiences we've shared. When they are gone I can work full time and pay the debt off quickly. :D

 

I just started a different thread about colleges and "does it matter" as a spin off of a college confidential thread I was reading yesterday and this morning.

 

It is an interesting discussion (theirs and ours). This board doesn't get as much college traffic as theirs does, but I'm curious to hear the responses if folks take the time to report them.

[cathmom]

The benefit I see in this guy only being 21 is that teens and current college students might be more inclined to listen to him than say, Dave Ramsay.

[TravelingChris]

Creekland said "If one wants to be a military officer, one needs "a" degree, but not an expensive one."

 

As an officer's wife, I would disagree with this. No, you don't need a specifically expensive degree but I have to say that my dh's degree from a top ten school helped him a great deal to get to the point where he is at. Now I think if the thought is going into the military for four or five years, where you get your degree doesn't matter. But studies have shown that higher ranking officers either attended the academies or attended good schools. Now some of those schools are high cost and some others give good financial aid. My dh came out with about 15k of loans and we think it was definitely worth it. If he was from certain states, he could have attended a good state school. (He wasn't from a state with a good public university). But inevitably, we have found and studies have concurred that education of officers does matter.

[creekland]

Creekland said "If one wants to be a military officer, one needs "a" degree, but not an expensive one."

 

As an officer's wife, I would disagree with this. No, you don't need a specifically expensive degree but I have to say that my dh's degree from a top ten school helped him a great deal to get to the point where he is at. Now I think if the thought is going into the military for four or five years, where you get your degree doesn't matter. But studies have shown that higher ranking officers either attended the academies or attended good schools. Now some of those schools are high cost and some others give good financial aid. My dh came out with about 15k of loans and we think it was definitely worth it. If he was from certain states, he could have attended a good state school. (He wasn't from a state with a good public university). But inevitably, we have found and studies have concurred that education of officers does matter.

 

Hubby was a Navy engineer prior to going civilian and we still have relatives and friends in the military who are now fairly high ranking officers in all 4 branches. I guess by "a" degree I was thinking that actual major doesn't matter a whole lot (pending desired duty in the military to some extent) as we know many who got Political Science, History, or other "non-hard science" degrees (unlike hubby or myself). By "not expensive" I was meaning that many state schools are fine. I would imagine it's ok to go the community college then transfer route as well, though I'm not sure if that would work with ROTC.

 

In general, the military does its own "finishing" of the training after graduation and it may or may not be in ones major. Most I know didn't end up doing much with their specific degree.

[jld]

Creekland, I think you make a good point about what debt is worth having. Might start a thread on that :) . . .