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Struggling with the Old Testament (Christian and Jewish content)


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:iagree:

Also, I would like to add that scripture was written with the presupposition that God IS sovereign and we are NOT, and WE are to honor and adore Him because He is worthy of our praise and adoration. We are NOT worthy, but God in His great mercy has made a way for us to be reconciled to Him. Scripture is about revealing to us God's character and revealing His Son to us and to show us how we are to live to please and honor God.

Unless the reader of scripture comes with an attitude of praise and adoration for the author of God's Word they will not "hear" the message of God's Word. God's word will only grow and produce fruit if it is planted in the right kind of soil. There's nothing wrong with God's Word. The soil it is planted in is often not the right type for it to grow and produce fruit. But when it is planted in the right type of soil it will produce a beautiful bountiful crop.

 

I'm sure this isn't the intention, but the posts like this (this post and the ones by the poster you are responding to, among others) make me feel like I should just throw in the towel and walk away from Christianity. If in order for reading the Bible to do any good, I have to already be at a different stage in my faith than I am . . . :confused:

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For example, God seems very concerned about exactly *how* the Jews are to worship him. Right down to the size of the tent and the fabric. Does it really matter? And if so, why? I'm not overly impressed with people who want to be worshiped, and I find it not overly appealing in a deity either.

 

As for vindictive, the books of Jeremiah and Ezekiel are full of God outlining exactly how he will destroy various countries and groups.

 

I'm much less concerned with the bad behavior of people in the OT. I can accept that God meets us where we are.

 

In the OT the Israelites are GOD's people. He chose them to show his power and glory. You don't see stories of people outside the Jews who worshipped and honored God being blasted into oblivion.

 

The tabernacle was a earthly copy of a heavenly place. God didn't just want it to be alright. It had to be exact. He showed the picture to Moses, empowered the builders through the Holy Spirit because he is God. He was coming to earth to be with his people - it had to be a heavenly place. KWIM? Just any old tent wasn't going to cut it. It isn't like he demanded perfection without clear, concise instructions and a heavenly power given to accomplish it.

 

Also, to echo what Milovany said - looking at the OT as a complete story isn't appropriate. In the OT God is showing what it will look like if man tries to fulfill the law of God on his own. He gave them the rules, gave them the opportunity and they couldn't live good enough for it to be Godly. The story is finished in the NT - the echoes of Jesus in the OT are so profound and show so much meticulous thought and detail that it is absolutely awe-inspiring to me.

 

The Beth Moore study on the Tabernacle goes through the correlation between the OT Tabernacle and the fulfillment of it through Jesus. There's a book called The Feasts of the Lord that goes through the required OT feasts - Feast of Firstfruits, Passover, etc. and shows how they have been fulfilled or will be fulfilled through Jesus.

 

Honestly, I have a hard time with the murder and mayhem in the OT sometimes. Why wipe out an entire population? Why take out the women and children? Then you read a little further and see where Haman (in Esther) was descended from a family that God had commanded the Jews to destroy. They didn't and centuries later they paid for their lack of obedience by having a death sentence laid over their heads by Haman.

 

Haman was a descendant of Agag, the king of the Amalekites, a people who were supposed to be wiped out by David by God's command.

 

I hope you will persist in reading. Sometimes it's hard to wade through all of the yuck. Judah was a jerk. Abraham wasn't much better. But it gives me confidence to read that the father of the Israelites was a human. God chose to found his nation through a man who doubted him and lied. God was still able to use him. David was an adulterer and murderer. But he is called a man after God's own heart. Job - used as an example of righteousness questioned God. He didn't take his testing with a smile on his face. Esther was amazing. God gave us such beautiful promises in Isaiah and Jeremiah.

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Not every verse will apply to YOU...

 

This is GOD'S story--and He has invited us to be a part of it.

 

The story of David and Goliath is not there to 'help' us (or to encourage us even though it 'can' and 'might' at times)--it is there to DEMONSTRATE how God took a young and insignificant but WILLING person and used them to defeat the enemy...to me it is a foreshadowing of Jesus.

 

This is as far as I've gotten in the thread but :iagree:."

 

The Bible is an interwoven redemptive history with Christ on every single page. That's really what we should be looking for when we read it.

 

Noah and the ark? The ark is a symbol of deliverance and salvation pointing to Christ. God shuts them in and saves them. Moses being placed in a basket and put on the Nile? Another type of "ark" pointing to the salvation of Christ.

 

The temple and it's measurements? A picture of heaven where the presence of Christ dwells.

 

So we look for Christ and His work of redemption and the longsuffering of the Father that He would even bother to offer His Son for sinners.

 

ETA: should have read farther. I see this was all covered. :)

Edited by CAMom
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I'm sure this isn't the intention, but the posts like this (this post and the ones by the poster you are responding to, among others) make me feel like I should just throw in the towel and walk away from Christianity. If in order for reading the Bible to do any good, I have to already be at a different stage in my faith than I am . . . :confused:

 

No, it's not about being at a different "stage" in your faith, but about changing your attitude while reading. It would be easy to tell you to just keep reading and pretend like it says what you want, or to skip the OT because it's icky anyways, or that it doesn't really mean that God did or said what it says he did and said, but I prefer to tell the hard, honest truth, because as a fellow mom, homeschooler, Christian... this matters. :grouphug: You have complete control over your attitude toward the Bible, not your "spiritual stage." :001_smile: And if it required some magic spiritual level, we'd all be in trouble. ;)

 

You can just read it as you are, but I'm saying that you won't get what you want out of that. It will still do you good, but it won't do what you are asking, because what you are asking requires a certain attitude toward the reading.

 

The OT as just some story probably doesn't relate to your life or give you any guidance, but you seemed to be expressing a desire for that realtionship and guidance, so we're sharing how you can apporach it in such a way as to get what you want. It will require a purposeful attitude shift, though, imho.

 

I don't know if you meant your post as hyperbole or not, but it is important to get to a point where what others say can't shake your faith. :001_smile: Even if someone said something in this thread that made you feel like you aren't doing it right, you still have to know that that doesn't matter to your faith. :001_smile:

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No, it's not about being at a different "stage" in your faith, but about changing your attitude while reading.

 

Don't you think this is backward? You wouldn't come to any other piece of writing and be expected to believe the material before it is presented. You wouldn't be expected to accept the premise of a certain chapter before you read it. With anything else, you read it first, then you consider whether or not you find it to be true, accurate, and good.

 

Why is the Bible different?

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Don't you think this is backward? You wouldn't come to any other piece of writing and be expected to believe the material before it is presented. You wouldn't be expected to accept the premise of a certain chapter before you read it. With anything else, you read it first, then you consider whether or not you find it to be true, accurate, and good.

 

Why is the Bible different?

 

i actually agree with you. i'm in favor of asking tough questions about the bible, and there are many. it has made my faith much stronger though & easier to defend. OP, i think if something is hard to discern or understand, investigating like you are and asking for clarity and resources that can aid in your pursuit is worthy. having said that though, i also agree that every passage isn't meant to be a moral compass or directly apply to your current circumstances. it is all about God and his plan unfolding though.

 

hugs.

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I decided to read the Bible this fall, all the way through in (roughly) 90 days. This is the first time I have read the entire Bible.

 

I'm almost finished with Ezekiel, and I find myself really struggling to see how to use the Old Testament as a moral guide in a modern, multi-cultural society. There are versus here and there that speak to me, but I find myself struggling with the portrayal of God, and the Us versus Them attitude just doesn't seem to relate to my life at all.

 

Have any of you had similar thoughts and feelings? I'm interested in hearing from both Christians (or former Christians) and Jews.

 

As a former Christian, I agree that the Old Testament is not moral, much less any sort of guide to morality. Like many things, there can be good snippets of 'wisdom', but that doesn't mean that the whole thing is good.

IMO, there's too much that is vile and does not make sense. I'd be willing to talk to you via PMs or e-mail if you want, but I do not want to openly debate my views of the bible on a board where most members are Christian.

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I'm sure this isn't the intention, but the posts like this (this post and the ones by the poster you are responding to, among others) make me feel like I should just throw in the towel and walk away from Christianity. If in order for reading the Bible to do any good, I have to already be at a different stage in my faith than I am . . . :confused:

 

Oh Girl, please don't turn away now that you are asking the really good questions!! Please don't give up because the Bible says very clearly that he who seeks Him, will find Him (Matt. 7:7-9) and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him (Heb. 11:6).

 

Your questions are wonderful and I think this thread is great, but remember that everyone is coming from a different perspective.

 

The most important thing to remember is that God will reward your seeking and will give you answers to your honest questions. He loves you and has given you the tools: the Word of God, the Holy Spirit to guide you, and your own intellect. It's wonderful to hear other people's opinions and takes on things, but remember to ask God and listen to His answers. Give Him the priority in your heart and mind.

 

Do you believe that He is the Creator of the Universe, the only God? The Bible's purpose is to show us Christ and to transform us from sinners to perfect people. Of course, our perfection will not be accomplished on earth, but we strive daily to understand Scripture, to become more like Christ. But first we must believe in what Jesus did. God is so absolutely perfect that He cannot allow sin to be in His presence. But He loves us so much that He wants us to spend eternity with Him. In order for imperfect people to be in the presence of a perfect God, He gave us the perfect Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, who did not need to die for His own sin, but took our sins upon Himself, and took the only punishment for sin-death-upon Himself, so that we can be made perfect and have eternal life with God. This is the central theme of the Bible.

 

I was raised in a missionary home and had been a believer in Christ for many years, actually was in my last year of Bible college, before I actually understood the central message of Scripture. I could say that is embarrassing, but I think it is a process that takes time and lots of study. It took me a long time to truly understand, so don't feel bad if it takes awhile, but the Lord will reward your seeking Him. Don't give up! The rewards of serving the Living God who loves us and died for us, are far more rewarding. But it takes a lot of soul searching and submission to Him, because He IS God and we are not.

 

If you're interested in reading a good Bible Study book about the Central Theme of Scripture look for "The Stanger On the Road to Emmaus" by Good Seed Publishing. I loved it and it's what helped me finally understand how the OT relates to the NT and to reality now. Here's the Amazon Link. http://www.amazon.com/Stranger-Road-Emmaus-Simple-Explanation/dp/1890082171/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1290642788&sr=8-3

 

I will be praying for God to bless you in your search and to help you continue asking the tough questions! Love you, friend. You have lots of people on this site that cared enough to give their answers of how they have been able to understand. You are not alone! :grouphug:

Edited by julikins
correct wording and name of book
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I think approaching the Bible with a "how can I relate" attitude is entirely the wrong perspective to take, but one that is very common in modern-day Christian culture.

 

Another thing to consider, and this is applicable to pretty much every interaction between West and East... is that you are reading this book through Western eyes, and attempting to comprehend it through a Western cultural mindset.

 

As strange as it may sound, a Muslim living in the Middle East would probably find much of the OT less shocking than most Christians in the West simply because of cultural mores. (One of our Muslim posters would have to verify that for me, but I think I'm on target with that one as Islam is an Abrahamic religion as well)

 

Melinda,

 

If you're interested, here's an article written by a leader in the Orthodox Church (an ancient church with physical roots in the New Testament), Bishop KALLISTOS Ware, about how to approach and read Scripture. Here's a section on how we see the Scriptures as a whole, with Christ at the center:

 

The Scriptures constitute a coherent whole because they all are Christ-centered. Salvation through the Messiah is their central and unifying topic. He is as a "thread" that runs through all of Holy Scripture, from the first sentence to the last. We have already mentioned the way in which Christ may be seen foreshadowed on the pages of the Old Testament.

 

{snip}

 

A Biblical Christian is the one who, wherever he looks, on every page of Scripture, finds everywhere Christ.

 

While I realize that the Bishop does refer to Jesus Christ in his writing, one thing to remember is that "Christ" is not a name, it is a title - Christos (Kristos), meaning "anointed one". Back then, kings and lords were literally anointed with olive oil (which was very precious - not many trees). It was poured over them until they glistened; they shone in the sun and everyone could see that they, among all others, were the most important. So this thread of which the Bishop speaks, if you (global you) have difficulty "tying it together" from the OT to the NT - think of it as weaving from king to king, and it makes more sense.

 

The Old Testament is the setting up of the characters and the motives for the whole play with the final act still to come.

 

There is a lot of character development' date=' a lot of foreshadowing of the type of relationship that will come to fruition at the end of the courtship.

 

[b']It's the bridgroom explaining who he is and why he's coming.[/b]

 

 

It is interesting that you say that. My mother always has said that the Song of Songs (Solomon) is a Bridegroom wooing his Bride.

 

*******

 

To the OP - I would say that my first paragraph would be my advise. And to keep an open mind, especially about the whole moral guide thing. The OT was written for a particular population at a particular point in time. Just as the letters of the NT were just that - someone's letters. I am not demeaning their importance to the world, or debating their origin or significance. But I certainly doubt Paul thought anyone would be reading his mail over a thousand years later!

 

As in all things, allow yourself to come to your own conclusions. I really believe Milovany has it right on this one: study, study, study - and decide if what you read feels right inside of you. Only you will know if it does.

 

HTH,

 

 

asta

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