Susie in CA Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 I have said for years that the reason many kids want to go to school around middle school age is that the parents are not able to challange/satisfy the children any longer. Guess what?! I have now reached exactly this point with my children. I am stumped. Let me explain. I started the year extremly well planned! It worked fairly well for a while and now I find that we do not have enough to do; especially interesting things. Here is what we are doing right now: 5th grade ds Daily: WWE II (two lesson each day) almost done, will move on to book 3 SWO D a page every day HW -- what ever I print from our reading Literature ala WTM MathMammoth - he is finishing up book 4, will move on to 5 Garlic Press Multiplication, Division German - Rosetta Stone Other: 3 times a week German via Rosetta Stone--he is doing leve II 2 times a week History--we are using SOTW II and we generally do two chapters a week ala Sonlight. I have him do the fact lists and/or write a summary 2 times a week Science ala WTM--He does experiments one day and writes a lab report. The second day we usually do more reading, write an outline, or watch something He also uses Seterra for geography, works through Top Secret Adventure books. We do Artist and Composer Study ala Ambleside. We do projects for history. He takes Piano lessons, goes to German class, and plays competitive soccer. This is what ds 6th grade does: Daily MathMammoth grade 5 Garlic Press fact practice books Writing Tales I -- he has always been horrible with writing and spelling, however, now this seems way too easy. SWO E -- one page a day Literature ala WTM and through coop class Other: History once a week--he does a one-level outline; need to increase to two level Science once a week -- either experiment with lab report, or reading with fact list He is at a charter school class one morning for about 4 hours. I don't think it is great academically but he seems to need it socially. He is in a coop once a week for about 6 hours. This is great socially and academically. He also goes to the german class once a week, takes piano lessons, and is on swim team. I guess, where I need ideas are things to do at home. Obviously, we don't need more outside activities. I am stuck in little kid activity and they are not interested anymore. :confused: I need to go in a new direction. :auto: Any ideas? Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom2Tess&Gus Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 I am very interested, as well, as I have one heading this way, too. Have you listened to any of SWB audio downloads on classical education? They are good food for thought and she has lots of great ideas. Sorry I'm not much help. I would love to hear more about this, too. Val Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susie in CA Posted November 13, 2010 Author Share Posted November 13, 2010 Anyone? I know I rambled in my previous post... I could really use some suggestions in finding interesting projects/books/experiments to do for the logic stage student. Also, maybe books for me to read, as I think that I may be the problem here. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 (edited) I have said for years that the reason many kids want to go to school around middle school age is that the parents are not able to challange/satisfy the children any longer. Guess what?! I have now reached exactly this point with my children. I am stumped. Let me explain. I started the year extremly well planned! It worked fairly well for a while and now I find that we do not have enough to do; especially interesting things. Here is what we are doing right now: 5th grade ds Daily: WWE II (two lesson each day) almost done, will move on to book 3 SWO D a page every day HW -- what ever I print from our reading Literature ala WTM MathMammoth - he is finishing up book 4, will move on to 5 Garlic Press Multiplication, Division German - Rosetta Stone Other: 3 times a week German via Rosetta Stone--he is doing leve II 2 times a week History--we are using SOTW II and we generally do two chapters a week ala Sonlight. I have him do the fact lists and/or write a summary 2 times a week Science ala WTM--He does experiments one day and writes a lab report. The second day we usually do more reading, write an outline, or watch something He also uses Seterra for geography, works through Top Secret Adventure books. We do Artist and Composer Study ala Ambleside. We do projects for history. He takes Piano lessons, goes to German class, and plays competitive soccer. This is what ds 6th grade does: Daily MathMammoth grade 5 Garlic Press fact practice books Writing Tales I -- he has always been horrible with writing and spelling, however, now this seems way too easy. SWO E -- one page a day Literature ala WTM and through coop class Other: History once a week--he does a one-level outline; need to increase to two level Science once a week -- either experiment with lab report, or reading with fact list He is at a charter school class one morning for about 4 hours. I don't think it is great academically but he seems to need it socially. He is in a coop once a week for about 6 hours. This is great socially and academically. He also goes to the german class once a week, takes piano lessons, and is on swim team. I guess, where I need ideas are things to do at home. Obviously, we don't need more outside activities. I am stuck in little kid activity and they are not interested anymore. :confused: I need to go in a new direction. :auto: Any ideas? Susie I am unfamiliar with much of what you have listed, so I am not sure what you are actually doing. (though my impression from reading the boards is that much of what you are using is below grade level) However, in general my philosophy of education is to constantly crank up what they are doing notch by notch. I could list what my 6th grader is doing and what she did last yr, but I don't think that would be helpful b/c it isn't even helpful to me for preparing for any of my other kids. ;) I have never taught the same grade level the same way twice. I do think that part of the problem is that you may not have progressed through the appropriate goals of the different stages of education. Primary grades (k-2) should be for focusing on the 3 rs, but by elementary school (3-5), educational goals should move to learning to read for information. For example, my kids read daily science and history topics. Writing assignments are assigned weekly from their reading. They learn to take notes, organize their thoughts, and write. By middle school (6-8) they should be able to synthesize information from multiple sources for writing assignments. Their writing may not be unique in argument (as in forming an original thesis and researching information to prove that argument......this is high school level writing), but they should be able to present information logically that proves a pt (a topic) that is assigned to them. Middle school kids should be doing science and history daily. (I actually think that elementary level kids should be too, but that is more a personal preference). For science, you might want to look at Homeschool Buyers Co-op. They have Plato science on sale through Monday. My 14 yos loved the middle school courses when he was in 7th grade and completed all of them in 1 yr. ETA: Have you read the WTM? If not, you might want to start there. You could also look at copies of books like Designing Your Own Classical Curriculum, look at Ambleside Online http://www.amblesideonline.org/, Mater Mablis http://www.materamabilis.org/, etc to see what work loads are more age/grade level appropriate. HTH Edited November 13, 2010 by 8FillTheHeart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsiew Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 I agree that much of what you are doing looks below grade level. That may be the majority of the problem. I have a 4th grader and I'm looking ahead to next year, Logic stage. What really helps me is to read the Logic stage section in WTM. After reading that I wonder how we'll fit it all in! SWB has pretty much outlined what to do at each grade level in literature/history/science (and of course the other areas) to get them to the appropriate point. She adds in things each year to challenge the kids more and more. I would start there. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 Karen & Robyn, Some may argue that MM5 is on par with a traditional 6th grade curriculum. Susie, I would ramp up the writing. WT 1 for a 6th grader seems much too easy, imho. Perhaps add some essay-writing for your 6th-grader. (I never did the logic-stage outlining per SWB (boring) & never missed it.) Are they reading/discussing challenging lit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsiew Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 Karen & Robyn, Some may argue that MM5 is on par with a traditional 6th grade curriculum. Agreed, but in the language arts area everything is under grade level. WWE2, SWO D (4th grade suggested), I see handwriting (HW?)... unless the handwriting is atrocious I'd say that could be dropped in favor of something more challenging in the writing area. I also don't see any grammar study? Maybe I missed it. I see only 2 days of history for the younger and only 1 day for the older. I guess that's what I was seeing when I agreed with below grade level. I would think just bumping up the language arts/history would do a lot. But, one key I've found to challenge them at home... they need to spend a lot of time **at home**. The more challenging reading/writing in logic stage requires quite a bit of time. One thing to OP, you may want to rethink the outside commitments. It sounds like maybe the first co-op situation **could** be dropped if necessary and maybe find a different social outlet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susie in CA Posted November 13, 2010 Author Share Posted November 13, 2010 I agree with all of what you say! My challange is that, especially, my older son is extremely difficult to get to work. He will drive all of us crazy. I do think that this issue has made me move to slowly and now I don't know how to ramp it up. 8Filltheheart - I will check out Plato and see. Do you do Science and History every day? I was considering that. Yes, I have read the WTM. My issue is indeed that I have allowed them to stay below grade level. I am stumped on how to get them moving forward now. Do I increase the amount of work in some areas? WWE and SWO for example. Thanks so much for walking me through this. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMom2One Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 Wow! You have your ds out of the house much more than many hs kids of this level that I've known. I would want to spend more on-on-one time with him and offer some challenging subjects at home that are offered as a more cohesive program. I would also agree that history and science should be more than a once per week subject, and that you may need to press in a bit harder with the writing. Have you considered adding some pre-logic lessons? How about some Mind Benders or even go through the Fallacy Detectives book together a few days per week? Have you tried supplementing math with something fun like LOF once per week? What about art and music? These are very important outlets for Logic stage just as much as for younger, grammar students. My dd is reading 2-3 chapters in her literature assignments daily, followed by conversations on what she is reading and also worksheets. She has grammar and writing each day, and I keep it at a challenging level for her. Along with this she has history reading every day, which includes response worksheets, written papers. I will also be adding a timeline to her weekly work beginning next month. We spend an average of 3 days per week on science reading and projects, in addition to going to a science class every Wednesday. All in all, she is quite challenged and seems to be enjoying it at the same time. I hope this helps. Blessings, Lucinda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 (edited) I agree with all of what you say! My challange is that, especially, my older son is extremely difficult to get to work. He will drive all of us crazy. I do think that this issue has made me move to slowly and now I don't know how to ramp it up. 8Filltheheart - I will check out Plato and see. Do you do Science and History every day? I was considering that. Yes, I have read the WTM. My issue is indeed that I have allowed them to stay below grade level. I am stumped on how to get them moving forward now. Do I increase the amount of work in some areas? WWE and SWO for example. Susie I would normally never recommend this, but if lack of understanding on your part combined with lack of cooperation on their part is what you perceive as the major obstacle, perhaps something like Plato's complete curriculum might be a good fit for the remainder of the yr. It would let both you and your ds's see what is "normal" for 5th/6th grade (and on the lighter side of normal). It would take the onus off of you and the burden would become theirs for accepting what is age level appropriate. (it is also on sale for $199---all courses combined for the rest of the yr) If you could pull them up to appropriate levels this yr, then I would highly recommend returning to a more traditional approach (using something like the WTM as a guideline) next yr. Just a thought. Edited November 13, 2010 by 8FillTheHeart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennW in SoCal Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 The middle school years can be tough because some kids are ready for so much more, but just when you start diving ahead they hit puberty and all higher brain functions seem to stop. There also seems to be a gap in materials -- there is a wealth of science and history books for the elementary years, and lots and lots of dry high school texts and the thick tomes in the grown up section of the library and book stores. But nothing in between -- you have to get creative to keep this age group engaged. I looked at the middle school years as the last focused family time before the time commitments of high school took over, so made a point of reading good literature aloud, or listening to audio books together . We'd have a globe out to find locations, I sometimes had them research people or events related to a book, and they'd have to write a short report about what they learned. The literature was my choice, so I could focus on a culture or time period, thus covering history without relying on a text book. I also let them explore their interests in depth, helping them find material on whatever topic interested them. They did projects, read trade magazines and biographies. By the time each boy was about 13 they were doing projects outside the home with adult mentors. My oldest was on the tech team at church learning how to run the light and sound boards and is going to get a degree in production design. My youngest was on a robotics team and interned with an electrical engineer and is planning on majoring in engineering or science in college. I didn't tie assignments to each and everything they read or did. Writing assignments did come from whatever we were doing as I never used any writing curricula, but it wasn't necessarily daily, and like Beth, we skipped doing outlines. By 7th or 8th grades I introduced essays. As we have always discussed what we read, saw or did, they were used to forming, expressing and supporting opinions. Science was lots books, videos and projects. One of the best projects we took on is Project Feeder watch. It isn't just bird watching or nature studies -- it is real science. Measuring, quantifying, observing, noting changes over time are the daily tasks of real scientists. The labs you get in kits demonstrate principles and properties, but they are pre-made with expected outcomes. Project Feeder Watch also has many additional projects during the year and has a terrific curriculum for homeschoolers. I don't know if this is helping you -- I don't have things broken down into specifics. I guess I just wanted to describe how rich our homeschool has been without it always having to look like school. They didn't necessarily greet read alouds or projects with bright, shining faces, but I had a chunk of time that was "school", then the rest of the day was for exploring their interests. TV and computer games were not allowed until after 4pm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Uhura Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 (edited) I have said for years that the reason many kids want to go to school around middle school age is that the parents are not able to challange/satisfy the children any longer. Susie I haven't read the other posts so forgive me if this has been mentioned already. SWB in her Joy of Classical Education MP3, says that logic stage boys often tune out of school (public school) b/c they are kept doing grammar stage methods. She said the girls want to please the teacher and want the teacher to like them so they still continue to do the work. She was warning us of not committing the same thing in our HSing. I have a 5th grade DS as well and will be reading this thread with interest. There was a similar thread about a month ago about how to make the transition into logic stage. Edited November 13, 2010 by Capt_Uhura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susie in CA Posted November 13, 2010 Author Share Posted November 13, 2010 Wow! You have your ds out of the house much more than many hs kids of this level that I've known. I would want to spend more on-on-one time with him and offer some challenging subjects at home that are offered as a more cohesive program. I would also agree that history and science should be more than a once per week subject, and that you may need to press in a bit harder with the writing. Have you considered adding some pre-logic lessons? How about some Mind Benders or even go through the Fallacy Detectives book together a few days per week? Have you tried supplementing math with something fun like LOF once per week? What about art and music? These are very important outlets for Logic stage just as much as for younger, grammar students. My dd is reading 2-3 chapters in her literature assignments daily, followed by conversations on what she is reading and also worksheets. She has grammar and writing each day, and I keep it at a challenging level for her. Along with this she has history reading every day, which includes response worksheets, written papers. I will also be adding a timeline to her weekly work beginning next month. We spend an average of 3 days per week on science reading and projects, in addition to going to a science class every Wednesday. All in all, she is quite challenged and seems to be enjoying it at the same time. I hope this helps. Blessings, Lucinda He does do Mindbenders, Art and Music. -- forgot to write that. The reason why he is out of the house so much is, mostly, that he has been such a challange to work with. It looks like we'll be adding lots more science and history for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 Okay, all I can offer is what I did beginning in logic stage (fifth grade), if I can remember, LOL: 5th grade ds "Daily: WWE II (two lesson each day) almost done, will move on to book 3 SWO D a page every day HW -- what ever I print from our reading Literature ala WTM" My son did Spelling Workout level G during fifth grade; Abeka God's Gift of Language B, and reading associated with our history studies. He read a lot of mythology that year and we did a mythology study over the course of the year. Grammar was generally only done four days per week. I also had a word study workbook that he worked through, followed by a dictionary skills workbook. For writing, I had him going through some different writing and outlining workbooks. I started with a World Book Ideas for Writing workbook. He was also using the last level of Getty-Dubay italics that year and I used some other free italics copywork for practice after he finished that. I followed the World Book with a workbook on summarizing. He also did some of the writing exercises from Abeka. After I finished with the smaller workbooks, I started him in WordSmith Apprentice (because he has a lot of difficulty in writing). He worked through that the rest of the year. "MathMammoth - he is finishing up book 4, will move on to 5 Garlic Press Multiplication, Division" I had mine doing Singapore 5 that year, along with MUS Delta for division drill and practice (which necessarily incorporates multiplication drill and practice, too). Singapore was 4 days a week and MUS was 5 (just a page a day). "German - Rosetta Stone" I had mine doing Spanish and Latin. He'd do Spanish 3 days one week and 2 the next, alternating with the Latin. Mine had a once weekly, outside Spanish class. I saw that's yours is doing a German class, too, and I think that speaking experience is good for them. "Other: 3 times a week German via Rosetta Stone--he is doing leve II (I think this is a very good program!) 2 times a week History--we are using SOTW II and we generally do two chapters a week ala Sonlight. I have him do the fact lists and/or write a summary 2 times a week Science ala WTM--He does experiments one day and writes a lab report. The second day we usually do more reading, write an outline, or watch something" We also did history two days, science two, and then Fridays we'd try to wrap up whatever needed to be covered in either, do field trips usually associated with one or the other, etc. I had him reading SOTW on his own beginning in fifth and outlining one section from one chapter a week. He was also reading more on his own from non-fiction history books, as well as science books. We did biology that year, so we did a lot of work looking at critters out in the wild or brought critters into our home to keep. "He also uses Seterra for geography, works through Top Secret Adventure books. We do Artist and Composer Study ala Ambleside. We do projects for history. He takes Piano lessons, goes to German class, and plays competitive soccer." Mine also did geography and studied piano. He also played soccer. We also tried to fit in as much art and music appreciation as possible. I tried to schedule/attend field trips almost weekly. I don't know if you have the means to do that or not, but I have always scheduled a lot of field trips in order to give my children a chance to do educational things with others. Scheduling park days during nice weather, a lunch out at a McDonald's that has a play place, an afternoon of skating or bowling, etc. would also be other ways to give them social time if you have things like that available where you live. We have a yahoo group for homeschoolers in our area where anyone can post info on such things and folks can then contact them to sign up. This is what ds 6th grade does: Daily "MathMammoth grade 5 Garlic Press fact practice books" Last year, my son started meeting with an algebra tutor in a small group (3) once per week. We were still finishing up Singapore 6 at home and I also used some Key to... workbooks for drill and practice in certain areas, such as decimals, etc. He had to do his algebra as homework in the evenings and on weekends and it was really too much for him, so I did modify that greatly for this school year. It was doable, however. "Writing Tales I -- he has always been horrible with writing and spelling, however, now this seems way too easy. SWO E -- one page a day Literature ala WTM and through coop class" Mine is not a writer by any stretch, either, however I think that makes practice all that much more important. Last year, we did a lot of lap books. I picked through to avoid the more childish things and used mini-books that went along with various themes we were studying during the course of the year (Medieval studies). These gave him a chance to write in smaller amounts that when put together made a very nice big picture (these can then be used for memory work, too). He also had a chance to participate in a "Walk Through History" program, which gave him a chance to use oral presentation skills. He did Spelling Workout H, Writing Strands I (although this was definitely not a perfect fit for him), and Abeka C (and we used some of their writing exercises). I used Julie Shield's copywork practice that went along with his history studies. I put together a big notebook of literary element worksheets and info sheets and used it along with our literature studies. He also worked through a literary elements workbook that included a lot of writing assignments. "Other: History once a week--he does a one-level outline; need to increase to two level Science once a week -- either experiment with lab report, or reading with fact list" I ended up teaching classes last year in art appreciation, earth science, early middle ages, and high middle ages. I also was able to arrange for someone else to teach an astronomy class. All these helped to give him more outside class time with others (he continued with the Spanish class, as well). I continued scheduling field trips, but did cut down on the number we did because of all the weekly time eaten up by the outside classes. They do begin to need more and more time with a "herd" their own age at about this time. I also got him more involved with things for youth at our local library, 4-H, etc. (did some of that in fifth, too).... "He is at a charter school class one morning for about 4 hours. I don't think it is great academically but he seems to need it socially. He is in a coop once a week for about 6 hours. This is great socially and academically." Are there things you can do to make him get more out of the charter school? Can you request classes you need for the co-op for future semesters? If it's sound academically, then using their classes as a jumping off point and gearing your studies to reinforce those might be helpful.... "He also goes to the german class once a week, takes piano lessons, and is on swim team." My older son swam from the time he was 11, also, and that can be pretty time intensive. So it should certainly give him some more social time. "I guess, where I need ideas are things to do at home. Obviously, we don't need more outside activities. I am stuck in little kid activity and they are not interested anymore. " As someone else said, it does sound like perhaps they are working below what they are capable of doing, so perhaps just taking things up a notch or two (maybe one or two things at a time, so as not to shock them too much, LOL), would help? I do think that a lot of kids need more group time as they get to be junior high age. This year, my son has classes outside the house every day save Fridays, on which we still do lots of field trips. I let him have a say in what classes he wanted to do, and I constantly discuss and review what he's doing in those to see if he wants to take them again the following session.... Because I was able to line the classes up prior to the start of the school year, and because some (like Spanish) have been going on for years and I can feel assured of them, I was able to build in that class time as part of his schedule for the year and so not burden him with the constant need to "catch up" in our home studies.... 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Mallory Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 (edited) We are pretty laid back in the early years- no formal math, no spelling, no grammar, little writing- really not much of anything. But my oldest is in 5th this year and is really doing almost everything listed in WTM for 5th. Logic- 3+ hours a week of all kinds of logic games or books Math- Singapore Math- okay he is only in 4, but we are only doing IP book and CWP and he is almost done with both the A and B levels and we are only on week 13, so he has been doing lots of math. On Mondays we do fun math using some of the other kits or books we have. History- is doing SOTW 1, but reading both the Usborne and the Kingfisher and doing all the facts/outlines/summaries/extra readings recommended in WTM Language-Spelling- we just started spelling so he is on Sequential Spelling 1, but we do 3-5 lists most days, Grammar is in writing, Reading- usually close to 2 hours a day, but assigned for hist or sci and free Writing- doing Writing Tales 2, as well as writing in hist and sci (narrations, outlines, fact lists) Science- Biology I planned, lots of labs and reports and extra reading Spanish-through out the day with a small focus on grammar School is not really that fun, but it is challenging and he really has stepped right up to be able to handle this level of school, even though we dilly dallied on the way here. We also have several fun/social things planned each week, but they are only allowed to do the "thing" if school is done up to that point. And I don't teach students who are moping or pitching a fit. Out of the blue a few months ago I sat down the boys and asked them to make a list of the things they really enjoyed doing that the little kids don't get to do (stay at home on Thurs morning for free time -read this as play video games- while I go volunteer, spend the night at grandpas on Wen-they switch each week, go to scouts, tumbling class, art class, and so on.). Then I had them make a list of things my sis gets to do that they don't. Then we talked about why big kids get to do more things, and how they could get to do some of the things that sis does. In other words that to get more fun things you have to complete your not as fun things. Finally we made a list of things that they are responsible for each week, and I made it very clear that those things must be done before the things on the fun list will be done. It didn't take many missed classes or fun mornings before they were much better at completing school cheerfully. Edited November 14, 2010 by Mallory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Uhura Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 I don't know if it helps to see what others are doing. Here's my 5th graders curricula. He is also quite resistant so it's taken awhile to get everything moving along plus we moved late August so that threw a huge kink in things. I feel like I just now have a feeling for what we are doing. Math: Math Mammoth 5; RS Geometric Approach Science: CPO Life Science History: For now we're trying History Odyssey Ancients level 2. I'm substituting K12 Human Odyssey for TSOM. He will be doing 1 level outlines and then shortly thereafter, 2 level outlines from Human Odyssey as well Oxford U. Press World in Ancient Times. Logic: Mindbenders, Venn Perplexors, etc Art: he takes pottery classes which he loves from a master potter; he is also taking cartooning classes from one of the Marvel Comic artists Music: Music appreciation using CDs discussing various artists and their works PE: Travel soccer, core strength training at home Language Arts: MCT Town level, WWE4, How to Teach Spelling level 3 then moving back to SWR; Daily edit workbook. He likes creative writing when he's in the mood so we'll go back to Friday Freewrites and once he has 4-5 of those, I'll have him pick one to work on. Literature: Goes along w/ history. We also do 3-4 book discusses each year using Teaching the Classics Next week I will be instituting 30min of science reading each day. I have made a science notebook for them and they will have to jot down something they learned, something they want to learn more about as well as discuss with me. I won't have them write summaries or narrations of their literature until after we're done w/ WWE4. We're not doing any foreign language or latin this year b/c I really wanted to focus on history and science and having him write well in those areas. Capt_Uhura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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