I feel like I am just about to explode! re: trial

[Tap]

Ds's trial is coming up in 5 days.

 

For those who don't know, he has been accused of a robbery he didn't commit. There is a witness who says it was him (she was led by people to ID him) but no other evidence was collected. It will be a he said, she said trial. There was no evidence collected to rule him out.

 

Our attorney says the witness is very believable. We actually do think the crime happened, but she is wrong on her ID, so she is coming across as a very reliable witness. She is a teacher in the upper level sciences/math, so she has a sense of confidence, and she will be taken as a legit witness.

 

DS, well he is meek and mild. Just a typical teenager who hasn't had much experience speaking in front of anyone. When his attorney was 'grilling' him the other day in prep for the trial, he didn't seem confident, he seemed scared. His story was consistent, there are just holes in what he remembers (the attorney was asking him specific questions about the officer's questions while he was being arrested).

 

 

As we get closer to the trial I worry about....what if it goes wrong? What if he gets convicted? It is a felony conviction. While he can have it sealed in 2 years, so the general public can't see it...law enforcement can. And he can't have a firearm with a felony conviction, permanently (I think you can contest this in 5 years possibly-but it isn't a given). We are outdoors people and he already owns his own gun. He won't even be able to go target shooting if they convict him.

 

 

The other attorney, has offered a misdemeanor trespassing conviction in trade for a guilty plea. If ds took that, it would totally disappear after he was 18.

 

 

We are going to trial. He didn't do it. He shouldn't plead that he did.

 

 

But, what if it all goes wrong..... :(

 

 

I ..... want .... to ..... explode.

[Miss Peregrine]

I'm sorry.

:grouphug:

[King Alfred Academy]

:grouphug: I can only offer hugs :grouphug:

[Chris in VA]

:grouphug: I'm so sorry. Will continue to pray.

Feel free to vent.

[NanceXToo]

:grouphug: I can't imagine how nerve-wracking this must be for you all. I hope it goes in your favor!

[MamaT]

:grouphug: I can't imagine how you must be feeling. I will keep on praying that the truth comes out and the judge makes the right decision. What a nightmare for all of you.

[Gooblink]

I am praying hard for you. Praying the legal system works, that the judge's and attorney's hearts are softened toward your boy, and that he find his courage to testify confidently. I pray the witness is personally convicted of her error and her story is doubted. Wisdom, comfort, peace for you, your family, your son, your attorney. Everything. :grouphug::grouphug:

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

:grouphug: will be praying :(

[Jennifer in MI]

Oh Tap!!!! I really feel for you! :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

What are the punishments for each? Does the felony conviction come with mandatory jail time?

[TN Mama]

:grouphug: Your family and especially your son have been on my heart since you first told us about his arrest. Continued prayers that the real truth comes out and that your lives can get back to normal.

[TravelingChris]

Why aren't you having a jury trial? At least then all you have to do is convince one juror (in most states).

[Gwenhwyfar]

There was no evidence collected to rule him out.

 

 

wait a second... i thought the whole justice system hinged on "innocent until PROVEN GUILTY in a court of law" ...ie, evidence to prove innocence isn't required, every burden is on the prosecution to prove their case beyond any reasonable doubt... ???

 

don't they have to do this? don't they have to "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" that your son did this? not just 'oh this school teacher sounds good'....

[Merry]

shouldn't the prosecution have some actual evidence that he did it? I would think that there would be more than just one eyewitness? Weird, I think.

[Tidbits of Learning]

I have watched a dear cousin go through something similar and he was a preacher's kid without a record. Take the guilty plea. You don't want a felony record. It is what I would tell my child to do in the same situation. You have a teenager against a respectable member of the community. In a he said, she said...most people are going to lean towards the adult.

What does your attorney suggest you do? I would look at the future in this scenario. Just because he didn't do it and he says he didn't do it, does not mean that he will be found innocent. If he pleads for a lesser charge, you are risking less. To me you are risking a lot by not pleading guilty to a lesser charge.

 

Ds's trial is coming up in 5 days.

 

For those who don't know, he has been accused of a robbery he didn't commit. There is a witness who says it was him (she was led by people to ID him) but no other evidence was collected. It will be a he said, she said trial. There was no evidence collected to rule him out.

 

Our attorney says the witness is very believable. We actually do think the crime happened, but she is wrong on her ID, so she is coming across as a very reliable witness. She is a teacher in the upper level sciences/math, so she has a sense of confidence, and she will be taken as a legit witness.

 

DS, well he is meek and mild. Just a typical teenager who hasn't had much experience speaking in front of anyone. When his attorney was 'grilling' him the other day in prep for the trial, he didn't seem confident, he seemed scared. His story was consistent, there are just holes in what he remembers (the attorney was asking him specific questions about the officer's questions while he was being arrested).

 

 

As we get closer to the trial I worry about....what if it goes wrong? What if he gets convicted? It is a felony conviction. While he can have it sealed in 2 years, so the general public can't see it...law enforcement can. And he can't have a firearm with a felony conviction, permanently (I think you can contest this in 5 years possibly-but it isn't a given). We are outdoors people and he already owns his own gun. He won't even be able to go target shooting if they convict him.

 

 

The other attorney, has offered a misdemeanor trespassing conviction in trade for a guilty plea. If ds took that, it would totally disappear after he was 18.

 

 

We are going to trial. He didn't do it. He shouldn't plead that he did.

 

 

But, what if it all goes wrong..... :(

 

 

I ..... want .... to ..... explode.

[Jan in SC]

Can he take the plea without admitting guilt? As you get closer to trial, you might need to consider this. Sadly, this sort of things happens so much more often then people realize. I agree with the pp about the jury trial, though.

[katemary63]

:grouphug: So sorry, I'll be praying for you all. :grouphug:

[mcconnellboys]

I just do not understand how this can happen. With no evidence whatsoever save one witness, who was never shown any other possible suspects so that she had to pick him out from a group of possibilities, how on earth can he even be tried? It just seems preposterous.

 

I mean, can't all of your family testify, similarly, that your habits are to be in bed and asleep at that time of night? That he's never snuck out of the house or had any reason to do so? That you've never found any contraband type evidence in your home or in his room? That there has never been any evidence of doors or windows being opened as middle of the night exits? That you are a typical light-sleeper-mother and have never been awakened by people stirring in your home in the middle of the night?

 

Why wouldn't that hold up as well or better than a stranger randomly pointing out the first teen boy she sees who remotely looks like a kid that she saw doing a crime? It could have been any boy with similar looks and that's why potential witnesses are generally made to pick out a suspect from a line-up that includes others with similar looks.... I don't understand why this was allowed AT. All.....

[MBM]

I am so sorry you and especially your son are going through this. I would be in an awful state of stress.

 

:grouphug:

[QueenCat]

:grouphug: :grouphug:This is one of my worst fears, with my younger son with Aspergers, that he wouldn't be able to explain himself properly, if questioned by authorities, even if he had nothing to do with something.

[Tidbits of Learning]

I really want to urge you to talk to your attorney about the difference between accepting a guilty plea to a lesser charge and going to trial. Ask your attorney for the brutal truth. Does your attorney believe you have a good chance at trial?

While you can have things sealed after 2 years, a felony offense will follow you. You can not vote with a felony offense. You can not own a fire arm. Most employers will ask point blank have you had a felony offense. Will it show up on background checks? If a law enforcement officer can see it, will a potential employer be able to see it. Will you want your son to have to explain down the road to a potential employer when asked have you ever been convicted of a felony that it was a case of mistaken identity at 16.

I am really urging you to talk to your attorney and ask for brutal honesty. What has your attorney advised? I would not want my child to take the fall for something they did not do, but I also wouldn't ask my child to take such a chance on a felony conviction.

[ChristineW]

Is your son being tried as a juvenile or as an adult? Juvenile convictions, even felonies, are sealed. In most settings, job applicants aren't required to disclose them.

 

If it is real court, then will the prosecutor accept a nolo contendere or no contest plea? That way your son won't have to lie, but he won't risk the more serious consequences of a felony conviction.

 

I'm praying for you.

[MotherMayI]

What a terrible situation! :grouphug: Your family is in my prayers.

[justamouse]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[justamouse]

I just do not understand how this can happen. With no evidence whatsoever save one witness, who was never shown any other possible suspects so that she had to pick him out from a group of possibilities, how on earth can he even be tried? It just seems preposterous.

 

 

 

Yet it happens all the time.

 

Project Innocence.

[kalanamak]

I have watched a dear cousin go through something similar and he was a preacher's kid without a record. Take the guilty plea. You don't want a felony record.

 

I know a 30 something man who did 3 years for stolen credit cards in his early 20s. He would not name his partner (we suspect it was his brother), so they called it "gang activity" and gave him extra time. Yes, he is a felon, but he is the director of an IT department for a largish public college. He is a bright guy, but he was never going to run for office.

 

I would not take a guilty plea. If convicted, appeal until you've gotten outside this rinky-dink jurisdiction.

[kristavws]

:grouphug:

 

Krista

[Tap]

Why aren't you having a jury trial? At least then all you have to do is convince one juror (in most states).

 

Juvenile court....judge only. We do wish it was a jury trial. There are so many wishy-washy details in the case that I really, really don't think a jury could convict him.

[Tap]

wait a second... i thought the whole justice system hinged on "innocent until PROVEN GUILTY in a court of law" ...ie, evidence to prove innocence isn't required, every burden is on the prosecution to prove their case beyond any reasonable doubt... ???

 

don't they have to do this? don't they have to "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" that your son did this? not just 'oh this school teacher sounds good'....

 

The 'evidence' is her saying he did it. :glare:

[Tap]

Can he take the plea without admitting guilt? As you get closer to trial, you might need to consider this. Sadly, this sort of things happens so much more often then people realize. I agree with the pp about the jury trial, though.

 

Not with the offer they extended. They want him to plead guilty to get it lowered to trespassing.

[Tap]

I just do not understand how this can happen. With no evidence whatsoever save one witness, who was never shown any other possible suspects so that she had to pick him out from a group of possibilities, how on earth can he even be tried? It just seems preposterous.

 

I mean, can't all of your family testify, similarly, that your habits are to be in bed and asleep at that time of night? That he's never snuck out of the house or had any reason to do so? That you've never found any contraband type evidence in your home or in his room? That there has never been any evidence of doors or windows being opened as middle of the night exits? That you are a typical light-sleeper-mother and have never been awakened by people stirring in your home in the middle of the night?

 

Why wouldn't that hold up as well or better than a stranger randomly pointing out the first teen boy she sees who remotely looks like a kid that she saw doing a crime? It could have been any boy with similar looks and that's why potential witnesses are generally made to pick out a suspect from a line-up that includes others with similar looks.... I don't understand why this was allowed AT. All.....

 

I will testify to exactly that. I am a very, very light sleeper. I do wake up at the drop of a hat. I slept on the couch that night because my husband snores. To sneak out, ds would have had to go out one of two doors both of which are visible from where I was sleeping.

 

The problem is....I am his mother and ya, know, moms have a tendency to protect their kids. While I can testify as an alibi, I was asleep so it doesn't really help much.

[Tap]

I really want to urge you to talk to your attorney about the difference between accepting a guilty plea to a lesser charge and going to trial. Ask your attorney for the brutal truth. Does your attorney believe you have a good chance at trial?

While you can have things sealed after 2 years, a felony offense will follow you. You can not vote with a felony offense. You can not own a fire arm. Most employers will ask point blank have you had a felony offense. Will it show up on background checks? If a law enforcement officer can see it, will a potential employer be able to see it. Will you want your son to have to explain down the road to a potential employer when asked have you ever been convicted of a felony that it was a case of mistaken identity at 16.

I am really urging you to talk to your attorney and ask for brutal honesty. What has your attorney advised? I would not want my child to take the fall for something they did not do, but I also wouldn't ask my child to take such a chance on a felony conviction.

 

The attorney is cautiously optimistic. He said that there are a few pleas that he would consider, this isn't really one of them. We still have 2 working days next week so maybe another offer will come in before trial Monday.

 

We agree that we are taking a big gamble. There are a few things in ds's favor. There is no evidence that says he was there...not even week evidence like a fuzzy video tape...just her eyewitness testimony. His testimony that it wasn't him 'should' be seen at equal value. Ds is squeaky clean so there is no history of previous crimes, good student, ect. Nothing that can be used against him (unless the fabricate something).

 

In theory.....there is equal evidence on both sides (each person saying their part) so there is 'reasonable doubt'. But, it is just one person....one judge making the decision. If it was a jury...I wouldn't be as worried. It isn't.

[Tap]

Is your son being tried as a juvenile or as an adult? Juvenile convictions, even felonies, are sealed. In most settings, job applicants aren't required to disclose them.

 

If it is real court, then will the prosecutor accept a nolo contendere or no contest plea? That way your son won't have to lie, but he won't risk the more serious consequences of a felony conviction.

 

I'm praying for you.

 

Juvenile court. They want a guilty plea. :glare:

[RoughCollie]

What has your son's attorney advised him to do?

 

My point of view is this: An innocent defendant should not have to plead guilty to anything.

 

But IRL, going to trial is a big risk. Your son may get convicted, he may not. He cannot control the outcome. He can only determine beforehand whether he can he live with the consequences, whatever they may be.

 

It is fairly rare for a convicted defendant to win on appeal. It is also very expensive to pursue post-conviction remedies. I would never advise anyone to pin their hopes on an appeal or on any other post-conviction remedy. The odds of success are very small compared to that of a trial.

 

I think you should ask your attorney what the basis for an appeal could be, should your son be convicted. It is likely that there won't be one, unless it is insufficiency of the evidence -- and that depends entirely on the law in your state.

 

Furthermore, there are plenty of cases which are appealed based on insufficiency of the evidence, and even though the insufficiencies may seem obvious to you and me, the convictions are upheld on appeal.

 

The advantage to pleading guilty to a lesser charge is that the outcome is certain. Can your son live with the consequences of that outcome?

 

So, you are left with this: There is no way, except by taking a plea, that the outcome in your son's case will be certain. By going to trial, he is taking a chance, so the only question remaining is whether he can live with the outcome, whichever it is.

 

Your lawyer cannot guarantee an outcome. He can give you his best guess based on his knowledge and experience. He can be wrong, since he does not control the outcome.

[RoughCollie]

There is no evidence that says he was there...not even week evidence like a fuzzy video tape...just her eyewitness testimony.

 

Her eyewitness testimony that he was there is sufficient evidence, I take it?

[Tap]

Thanks for the support everyone...it means a lot. 5 days and counting.

[Tap]

Her eyewitness testimony that he was there is sufficient evidence, I take it?

 

They are saying that it is. :(

[mcconnellboys]

But what is it that happened? Didn't something get taken? If there are no prints of any kind, no evidence of stolen merchandise, no DNA, etc., etc. I just can't believe that someone would brand a good boy with no evidence whatsoever of any wrongdoing. Can't y'all parade in character witness after character witness to reiterate that this is just wrong?

 

I'm so, SO sorry you are going through all of this! I have just never heard of such a thing and I'm imagining my own older son in a similar circumstance and I just can't understand how such a thing can happen. You should never have even been put into such a position....

[Tap]

But what is it that happened? Didn't something get taken? If there are no prints of any kind, no evidence of stolen merchandise, no DNA, etc., etc. I just can't believe that someone would brand a good boy with no evidence whatsoever of any wrongdoing. Can't y'all parade in character witness after character witness to reiterate that this is just wrong?

 

I'm so, SO sorry you are going through all of this! I have just never heard of such a thing and I'm imagining my own older son in a similar circumstance and I just can't understand how such a thing can happen. You should never have even been put into such a position....

 

Medication was taken.

 

No physical evidence was collected by the police. No finger prints, nothing. The eyewitness didn't call the police until the next day so there was no search for the robbers that night. There was no photo line up for her to pick him out of....she pointed him out as he checked the mail and said "thats him". They arrested him on the spot, no discussion, no interview...just arrested him.

 

There was no effort to collect ANY evidence that could have cleared him.

 

Character witnesses aren't allowed. The judge won't know if he is the neighborhood hoodlum or the phenomenal good kid that he is. If only they were....I could easily fill a page of people willing to testify about his character. He really is an amazing kid but the judge will never know that. The judge will never know the quality of his 'witness' testimony that he didn't do it.

[RoughCollie]

They are saying that it is. :(

 

Well, that's not uncommon.

 

The big question is which witness will be more credible to the judge, your son or that mistaken lady.

 

I see a lot of reasonable doubt here, if the way the lady determined that it was your son she saw that night is put into evidence. I can't see why it won't be.

 

But, but, but ... just because I see it, doesn't mean the judge (or a jury, btw) would agree with me.

 

Frankly, if one of my boys were in this situation, I don't know what I'd do. I would want him to go to trial to be acquitted, but I wouldn't want to take the risk he would be convicted. It would be against everything in me to counsel him to plead guilty to a lesser charge when he didn't commit a crime.

 

DS2 said he'd plead guilty to trespassing because it is only a misdemeanor and he wouldn't have to go to jail. To him, that seems like the smart thing to do.

Edited November 13, 2010 by RoughCollie

[RoughCollie]

No physical evidence was collected by the police. No finger prints, nothing. The eyewitness didn't call the police until the next day so there was no search for the robbers that night. There was no photo line up for her to pick him out of....she pointed him out as he checked the mail and said "thats him". They arrested him on the spot, no discussion, no interview...just arrested him.

 

There was no effort to collect ANY evidence that could have cleared him.

 

On the bright side, these are all good points your son's attorney will bring up on cross-examinations of the police officer and eyewitness.

[Tap]

On the bright side, these are all good points your son's attorney will bring up on cross-examinations of the police officer and eyewitness.

 

He plans to....but honestly, these facts only show that the police office didn't do his job. They don't discredit the witnesses testimony. While there is no physical evidence to convict him it doesn't really help his case, it just doesn't hurt it. IYKWIM

 

If there was misleading evidence (like fuzzy video) we would be more worried than we are now. We are happy there isn't any evidence but in the trial, I don't know if that helps much.

 

It will still be his word against hers.

[RoughCollie]

While there is no physical evidence to convict him it doesn't really help his case, it just doesn't hurt it. IYKWIM

 

It will still be his word against hers.

 

I know, and I say that glumly.

[chickenpatty]

I'm so so sorry. ((hugs)) What a terrible situation to be in. :( Praying that truth comes out.

[Kim in Appalachia]

:grouphug:

 

I've been thinking about you and your ds. I'm praying it will go well. It stinks when taking a plea for something you didn't do seems like a better decision.

 

I hope the lack of any real evidence is evident to the jury. :grouphug:

[Heatherwith4]

I can't even imagine. I'm so sorry! I am praying that the truth will come out. :grouphug:

[FO4UR]

I am sick to my stomach thinking about this.:grouphug: I can't imagine what I would advise my son to do if it were him. I'd be tempted to tell him to take the plea deal and write a book about the trauma of being accused of a crime you didn't commit...the danger of being a teenage boy who lives on the street where a crime happened.:glare:

 

Praying!:grouphug:

[unsinkable]

I just do not understand how this can happen. With no evidence whatsoever save one witness, who was never shown any other possible suspects so that she had to pick him out from a group of possibilities, how on earth can he even be tried? It just seems preposterous.

 

I mean, can't all of your family testify, similarly, that your habits are to be in bed and asleep at that time of night? That he's never snuck out of the house or had any reason to do so? That you've never found any contraband type evidence in your home or in his room? That there has never been any evidence of doors or windows being opened as middle of the night exits? That you are a typical light-sleeper-mother and have never been awakened by people stirring in your home in the middle of the night?

 

Why wouldn't that hold up as well or better than a stranger randomly pointing out the first teen boy she sees who remotely looks like a kid that she saw doing a crime? It could have been any boy with similar looks and that's why potential witnesses are generally made to pick out a suspect from a line-up that includes others with similar looks.... I don't understand why this was allowed AT. All.....

 

I am with you Regena.

 

I would have thought there would have to be more than a witness.

 

Tap, I'm praying for all of you!!!!

Edited November 13, 2010 by unsinkable

[prairiegirl]

Oh, Tap, I am so sorry. My heart just aches for you and your son.

[Mom0012]

I haven't read all the other posts, but this whole scenario is my worst nightmare. I have often said to my mother that I just pray to God no one ever accuses my son of something serious because he would come out guilty even though he is as innocent as a lamb.

 

Have you seriously looked at the ramifications of the trespassing charge? I think I would consider it. Anything can happen in a courtroom. Not to mention the tremendous amount of stress involved in going to court. It's not fair, but what will happen if your son is convicted of the other charge?

 

Lisa

[Denisemomof4]

I can't even imagine how hard this is on all of you. As a mother, your heart must be absolutely shredded. I can't imagine!!!

 

I hope and pray that your son does NOT get convicted. I hope and pray that the truth of it all comes out.

 

I don't know what to say.

 

Keep us posted. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: