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Was I born under a rock?(CC)(Young earth vs. old earth)


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I know there has been talk over young earth vs. old earth. And to be honest, since I didn't know a ton of facts, and just was going by what I gathered over the years, I had a really hard time justifying the millions of years things with God and the Bible. I have faith, so I just pushed it aside as something that was beyond my understanding (and it probably still is).

 

However, wow, I have been gobsmacked this week by my 5th grade son's science program. I LOVE IT!! (The Fossil Book from the Wonders of Creation Series by Gary and Mary Parker).

 

I finally had the Geologic Column Diagram explained to me in such a way that it makes tons of sense. Tons. It doesn't have to fight with my view of God's timeline. And it makes logical sense!! I can't tell you how happy I am, spiritually, just thinking about it. So, I guess I'm officially on the young earth side, now.

 

What I can't understand is why if all the world believed in flood science until 1800, why did Darwin have such an impact? Darwin's theory is, of course, arguable, but it just seems that there is so much evidence to support flood theory. Why is this information not being taught alongside evolutionism? Why is it not being presented clearly. Why, at age 44 am I just finding out about this? I think there would be more of a turning back to God if this was widely taught (if it were taught seriously.).

 

Interesting week!

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Well, all the world did not believe in flood science until 1800. Science itself has evolved over the milleniums, and especially over the last few hundred years. What we know as science today hasn't really existed that long, and there have been plenty of ideas about creation through the ages.

 

I would suggest that you read as many resources as you can find, from all perspectives.

 

A funny aside: An intelligent 65 year old woman recently told me, "there were no such things as dinosaurs when I was a child." She hadn't heard of dinosaur fossils til she was 20!

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I think it's probably the same reason why kids read Shakespeare in Literature class, but they don't ever read the Bible. The Bible is dismissed because it is "religion" even though it changed civilization more than just about anything else in history. On that same note, creationism as a theory to explain origins is also dismissed as "religion" not science. Scientists claim to come to the study of origins without bias but most then go right on to ignore or dismiss all evidence that challenges the theory of evolution and points to the idea that there could be an intelligent force behind the earth's design. Seems to me they are not looking for the best explanation, but rather, they are looking for evidence to support what they already believe about origins. I think people could actually come to believe in God through science and the study of origins, if they were humble and followed the evidence to it's most logical conclusion. But, of course, they think believing in God isn't logical. But, I think that if people want proof of God, his fingerprints are all over the design of life on earth.

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What I can't understand is why if all the world believed in flood science until 1800, why did Darwin have such an impact? Darwin's theory is, of course, arguable, but it just seems that there is so much evidence to support flood theory. Why is this information not being taught alongside evolutionism? Why is it not being presented clearly. Why, at age 44 am I just finding out about this? I think there would be more of a turning back to God if this was widely taught (if it were taught seriously.).

 

 

I can assure you that learning more about flood science would NOT turn me back to God. My issues with religion are far deeper than a creation story.

 

I'm tempted to open a Mike's with you ladies, but I'm a real lightweight and have to run errands in another hour or so. Tonight, though, might be the time.

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I can never find the Cranberry Pomegranate Mike's anymore, I just find it in a variety case or everyone has the pink lemonade. I will even settle for the Cranberry Lemonade, though I had the Margarita flavored ones recently and they will do in a pinch. I don't like the lemonade ones.

 

It is only 1:49 here so they will have plenty of time to chill in the fridge...:cheers2:

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I just watched the documentary Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed, with Ben Stein. It was very interesting. The scientific community literally purges itself of any scientist who even mentions Intelligent Design, let alone Creationism. They just want to discuss the different theories, but the current academia will not hear of it. Darwinism is just a theory, but is presented as fact.

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I recently finished reading a wonderful book called The Language of God by Francis S. Collins. I highly recommend it. Dr. Collins is a devout Christian and a staunch evolutionary scientist. He does a beautiful job of explaining why theistic evolution is the best explanation we have for the evidence -- better than Creationism or ID or atheistic evolution. It's a very interesting read if you're at all curious about that perspective.

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I finally had the Geologic Column Diagram explained to me in such a way that it makes tons of sense. Tons. It doesn't have to fight with my view of God's timeline. And it makes logical sense!! I can't tell you how happy I am, spiritually, just thinking about it.

 

i'm totally happy for you ~ and i'm not saying that in sarcasm or anything, i really am...you sound like some doubts/confusion/etc got lifted for you and that's always an awesome feeling. :D

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I'm sorry, but the whole world did not believe in "flood science" until 1800, and I'm afraid that most scientists who believe in Intelligent Design do not believe in a young earth....

 

:iagree:

Part of the reason that Darwin had such an impact was that geology as a field had rapidly expanded and made many new discoveries, especially in the 50 or so years prior to the publishing of Origin of Species.

 

I recently finished reading a wonderful book called The Language of God by Francis S. Collins. I highly recommend it. Dr. Collins is a devout Christian and a staunch evolutionary scientist. He does a beautiful job of explaining why theistic evolution is the best explanation we have for the evidence -- better than Creationism or ID or atheistic evolution. It's a very interesting read if you're at all curious about that perspective.

 

I really enjoyed this book; it's one of the most pleasant books on the topic that I've read, as well.

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I recently finished reading a wonderful book called The Language of God by Francis S. Collins. I highly recommend it. Dr. Collins is a devout Christian and a staunch evolutionary scientist. He does a beautiful job of explaining why theistic evolution is the best explanation we have for the evidence -- better than Creationism or ID or atheistic evolution. It's a very interesting read if you're at all curious about that perspective.

 

Isn't that book the best? I *love* that book. So much so that I've made my daughter read it for a part of her science curric last year.

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I recently finished reading a wonderful book called The Language of God by Francis S. Collins. I highly recommend it. Dr. Collins is a devout Christian and a staunch evolutionary scientist. He does a beautiful job of explaining why theistic evolution is the best explanation we have for the evidence -- better than Creationism or ID or atheistic evolution. It's a very interesting read if you're at all curious about that perspective.

 

Thank you for the recommendation. I've never seen why evolution and Christianity are seen as opposed. JMHO of course.

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Thank you for the recommendation. I've never seen why evolution and Christianity are seen as opposed. JMHO of course.

 

 

I think evolution and Christianity are opposed because Christianity teaches that death entered the world because of Adam's sin. Hence we need a Savior to save us from death. Hence Christ.

 

If God used the process of life/mutation/death/life/mutation/death to bring about the world then what in the world do we do with death entering the world due to Adam's sin? What do we do with the concept of death as punishment for sin? If death has been around before sin for what do we need a Savior? The whole thing unravels. Obviously, for those who don't believe it's a non-issue. But I think to Christians trying to reconcile the two it is a HUGE issue.

 

Perhaps someone has attempted to explain their reasoning/conclusions/theories regarding this but I've not come across it It would be very interesting reading.

 

I am totally with the OP here. I've read Jay Wile's 7th grade book and am making my way through the 8th grade book. I really wish that I had been taught these things in school. As a young person I thought faith and science could not co-exist so I turned my back on science. I'm really loving to learn that there are alternative theories out there that do not contradict my religious beliefs. It's the biggest breath of fresh air!!

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That was my exact thought! :lol:

 

I broke out the ice cream.

 

Call me a hopeless humanist, but I can't for the life of me understand why faith is trying to be put in the mold of science. Will science convince you of your faith? It seems very, very odd to me, like (to quote SG) "being in a Wallace Steven's poem with food poisoning". :)

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Isn't that book the best? I *love* that book. So much so that I've made my daughter read it for a part of her science curric last year.

 

For everyone who liked The Language of God, I highly recommend a book called God and Evolution by David Wilcox. He is a Christian, evolutionist, college science teacher. His book takes the information that gene science has uncovered about the origins life and humanity and discusses them in the context of a Biblical faith. It is one of the best books I've ever read on the subject.

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I think evolution and Christianity are opposed because Christianity teaches that death entered the world because of Adam's sin. Hence we need a Savior to save us from death. Hence Christ.

 

If God used the process of life/mutation/death/life/mutation/death to bring about the world then what in the world do we do with death entering the world due to Adam's sin? What do we do with the concept of death as punishment for sin? If death has been around before sin for what do we need a Savior? The whole thing unravels. Obviously, for those who don't believe it's a non-issue. But I think to Christians trying to reconcile the two it is a HUGE issue.

 

Perhaps someone has attempted to explain their reasoning/conclusions/theories regarding this but I've not come across it It would be very interesting reading.

 

I am totally with the OP here. I've read Jay Wile's 7th grade book and am making my way through the 8th grade book. I really wish that I had been taught these things in school. As a young person I thought faith and science could not co-exist so I turned my back on science. I'm really loving to learn that there are alternative theories out there that do not contradict my religious beliefs. It's the biggest breath of fresh air!!

 

Very many Christians, I am included, believe that the death referred to in Genesis is spiritual death, or separation from God, not physical death.

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I know there has been talk over young earth vs. old earth. And to be honest, since I didn't know a ton of facts, and just was going by what I gathered over the years, I had a really hard time justifying the millions of years things with God and the Bible. I have faith, so I just pushed it aside as something that was beyond my understanding (and it probably still is).

 

However, wow, I have been gobsmacked this week by my 5th grade son's science program. I LOVE IT!! (The Fossil Book from the Wonders of Creation Series by Gary and Mary Parker).

 

I finally had the Geologic Column Diagram explained to me in such a way that it makes tons of sense. Tons. It doesn't have to fight with my view of God's timeline. And it makes logical sense!! I can't tell you how happy I am, spiritually, just thinking about it. So, I guess I'm officially on the young earth side, now....

 

Interesting week!

 

We like that series also. My daughter is working through the Geology Book right now. And yes, YE makes sense to me from a religious and scientific perspective. However, that is definitely not everyone's experience. For many an old earth or evolutionary model makes more sense. I can see their side of it also.

 

Either way, I prefer not to make light of people's closely held beliefs regarding the theory of origins (no matter what they believe).

Edited by Daisy
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The scientific community literally purges itself of any scientist who even mentions Intelligent Design, let alone Creationism. They just want to discuss the different theories, but the current academia will not hear of it. .

 

Just as the church once tried to purge all scientists.

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Young earthers generally believe that there was a literal 6 day creation and that the earth is a little over 4000 years old--a number that results from adding the numbers in geneologies, etc. together.

 

Many recognize that that is not a reliable way to arrive at time as ancient mesopotamian geneological conventions are different than our notions of them. (X is the son of Y can mean X is the son, grandson, great-grandson, etc. There are some examples of this in the Bible.)

 

For those that equivocate a little with the 4000 years, there is still the thinking that the earth is quite young.

 

"Old earthers" acknowledge that the days of creation might not be literal 24 hour days, but span thousands of years.

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So... can you or someone explain what the young earth creationists believe that makes them different from others?

I've heard the term used so many times but we did not come across during our homeschooling years.

The best I can figure I'm an old earth evolutionist who thinks evolution was instituted by God. I'm sure there is a shorter name for it.

 

People who believe in a young earth believe that earth is +/- 7000 years old. They believe a very literal interpretation of Genesis. I've heard some as young as 5900 years old and as old as 9000 years.

 

Old earth believers believe in the current scientific model that says earth (and the solar system) is billions of years old.

 

I'm not sure if there are any young earth evolutionists. There may be old earth creationists, but I'm not sure.

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I broke out the ice cream.

 

Call me a hopeless humanist, but I can't for the life of me understand why faith is trying to be put in the mold of science. Will science convince you of your faith? It seems very, very odd to me, like (to quote SG) "being in a Wallace Steven's poem with food poisoning". :)

 

I think that how we believe the earth came into being has a lot to do with our understanding of faith and more importantly, our view of God. Each theory sets out your symbolic beginning of who you expect God to be.

 

If you believe God started it all in 6 days, zip, poof, pow then your God is zip, poof, pow. I get why people want the magic show--haven't we always wanted it? I mean, don't we just all love the shine and wonder of it all? Every age has a Pardoner, you know, and we want to buy it all? We want all of that and creation in 6 days feeds that. That is how you expect God to communicate with you. Flash bang, zip, poof, pow. A laser light show.

 

If you believe God pulled the big bang together with natural forces billions of years ago, that he used the process of natural selection to build this most amazing world, that he is so patient that millions of years of volcanoes, drips of water, mud, can come together to build this moment---then you know God's plan isn't over yet. It's taken billions of years to get here, to this moment, and I'm sure he's not done. You can walk, day by day, with faith that His work is slow and beautiful. That He takes the worst heavings of this world and works them into beauty and that he has years yet to work on us and this earth. You have an organic view of God. He speaks to you organically. It's a slow thing, as opposed to a drive through.

 

What I do know of God is that he never does things the way we expect. I love that show, The Naked Archeologist and how he delves into those bible stories and tries to work out how they might have happened with science and research. The things he finds seem natural-these natural occurrences that *were* miracles. And in hindsight, I see that God used the small natural occurrences to work the biggest miracles in MY life. Pushing me and pulling me here and there-backing me into places and making me turn over stones I wouldn't have previously-but it's all God and it's all organic. I think it's actually a more accessible view of God, and one that *for me* is even more miraculous.

 

OK, sorry for the sermon.

 

eta, and I'm tired of vilifying the scientists. God is the God of science and maybe they are showing us His glory. Just because it doesn't fit with our little box of doctrine doesn't mean it's not Him. Doctrine isn't God. He's bigger than that man made device.

Edited by justamouse
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What do we do with the concept of death as punishment for sin?

 

I know it's much too early to feel this tired, and yet the fact remains that I am somehow too tired to address your question coherently. Tonight, I will just leave you with the thought that not all Christians view death as a punishment that God meted out for our sins. Strange, but true. :001_smile:

 

 

If death has been around before sin for what do we need a Savior? The whole thing unravels.

 

<snip>

 

Perhaps someone has attempted to explain their reasoning/conclusions/theories regarding this but I've not come across it It would be very interesting reading.

 

I don't know if you have any interest, or even the ability, to listen to podcasts, but Father Thomas Hopko, an Orthodox Christian, has an entire series of podcasts on the topic of how a Christian can "handle" Darwin. I haven't finished them yet, but I'm finding them fascinating so far. Search on iTunes under Ancient Faith Radio, and "Speaking the Truth in Love". It's well worth your time!

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If you believe God pulled the big bang together with natural forces billions of years ago, that he used the process of natural selection to build this most amazing world, that he is so patient that millions of years of volcanoes, drips of water, mud, can come together to build this moment---then you know God's plan isn't over yet. It's taken billions of years to get here, to this moment, and I'm sure he's not done. You can walk, day by day, with faith that His work is slow and beautiful. That He takes the worst heavings of this world and works them into beauty and that he has years yet to work on us and this earth. You have an organic view of God. He speaks to you organically. It's a slow thing, as opposed to a drive through.

 

What I do know of God is that he never does things the way we expect.

eta, and I'm tired of vilifying the scientists. God is the God of science and maybe they are showing us His glory. Just because it doesn't fit with our little box of doctrine doesn't mean it's not Him. Doctrine isn't God. He's bigger than that man made device.

 

That was very eloquently stated! :)

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The best I can figure I'm an old earth evolutionist who thinks evolution was instituted by God. I'm sure there is a shorter name for it. Some use the term "biologos."

 

People who believe in a young earth believe that earth is +/- 7000 years old. They believe a very literal interpretation of Genesis. I've heard some as young as 5900 years old and as old as 9000 years.

 

Old earth believers believe in the current scientific model that says earth (and the solar system) is billions of years old.

 

I'm not sure if there are any young earth evolutionists. There may be old earth creationists, but I'm not sure. There are old earth creationists. They tend to reject the evolution of man and say that the original wording of Hebrew indicates that mankind was a special miraculous creation.

 

Answers in bold.

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Galileo for one.

Why is it that when anyone says "the Church tried to purge all scientists" or "the Church has always hated and feared science" or etc., and someone asks for evidence, the answer is always "Galileo! Aha!"

 

I mean, shouldn't there be a much, much longer list to choose from?

 

And what was up with founding all those universities, anyway? The Church must really have regretted that when it was time to round up all those scientists for The Purge.

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Galileo,

 

Copernicus,(From Wikipedia) In March 1616, in connection with the Galileo affair, the Roman Catholic Church's Congregation of the Index issued a decree suspending De revolutionibus until it could be "corrected," on the grounds that the supposedly Pythagorean doctrine[94] that the Earth moves and the Sun does not was "false and altogether opposed to Holy Scripture."[95] The same decree also prohibited any work that defended the mobility of the Earth or the immobility of the Sun, or that attempted to reconcile these assertions with Scripture.On the orders of Pope Paul V, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine gave Galileo prior notice that the decree was about to be issued, and warned him that he could not "hold or defend" the Copernican doctrine.[96] The corrections to De revolutionibus, which omitted or altered nine sentences, were issued four years later, in 1620.[97]

 

In 1633 Galileo Galilei was convicted of grave suspicion of heresy for "following the position of Copernicus, which is contrary to the true sense and authority of Holy Scripture,"[98] and was placed under house arrest for the rest of his life.

 

The Catholic Church's 1758 Index of Prohibited Books omitted the general prohibition of works defending heliocentrism,[99] but retained the specific prohibitions of the original uncensored versions of De revolutionibus and Galileo's Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems. Those prohibitions were finally dropped from the 1835 Index.[100]

 

Giordano Bruno-(From Wikipedia) (1548 – February 17, 1600), born Filippo Bruno, was an Italian Dominican friar, philosopher, mathematician and astronomer, who is best known as a proponent of the infinity of the universe. His cosmological theories went beyond the Copernican model in identifying the Sun as just one of an infinite number of independently moving heavenly bodies: he is the first European man to have conceptualized the universe as a continuum where the stars we see at night are identical in nature to the Sun. He was burned at the stake by civil authorities in 1600 after the Roman Inquisition found him guilty of heresy and turned him over to the state, which at that time considered heresy illegal.

Edited by Unicorn
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OP, I'm glad you found something that clicks with you and gives you peace :001_smile:

 

If you believe God pulled the big bang together with natural forces billions of years ago, that he used the process of natural selection to build this most amazing world, that he is so patient that millions of years of volcanoes, drips of water, mud, can come together to build this moment---then you know God's plan isn't over yet. It's taken billions of years to get here, to this moment, and I'm sure he's not done. You can walk, day by day, with faith that His work is slow and beautiful. That He takes the worst heavings of this world and works them into beauty and that he has years yet to work on us and this earth. You have an organic view of God. He speaks to you organically. It's a slow thing, as opposed to a drive through.

 

What I do know of God is that he never does things the way we expect. I love that show, The Naked Archeologist and how he delves into those bible stories and tries to work out how they might have happened with science and research. The things he finds seem natural-these natural occurrences that *were* miracles. And in hindsight, I see that God used the small natural occurrences to work the biggest miracles in MY life. Pushing me and pulling me here and there-backing me into places and making me turn over stones I wouldn't have previously-but it's all God and it's all organic. I think it's actually a more accessible view of God, and one that *for me* is even more miraculous.

 

OK, sorry for the sermon.

 

eta, and I'm tired of vilifying the scientists. God is the God of science and maybe they are showing us His glory. Just because it doesn't fit with our little box of doctrine doesn't mean it's not Him. Doctrine isn't God. He's bigger than that man made device.

 

That was beautiful. *sniffle* :001_wub:

 

Very many Christians, I am included, believe that the death referred to in Genesis is spiritual death, or separation from God, not physical death.

 

Me too :).

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Copernicus,.
Sorry, missed the part where Copernicus was "purged." You missed the part where the Pope and several cardinals were extremely interested in his theories and encouraged him to continue his research. Probably setting him up for The Purge later, though. Crafty priests!

 

Giordano Bruno
Not defending the burning of people at the stake, but you leave the impression that Bruno's "heresy" that he was condemned for was related to science. It wasn't; it was the more boring kind of heresy, in matters of Trinitarianism and Christology and the like.

 

Yep, Galileo is a household name: not because he just happens to be the one everyone heard of, but because persecution for reasons of scientific disagreement was an aberration for the Church, not the default.

 

C'mon, if we're going to toss out things like "The Church tried to purge all scientists," we're going to need something a little stronger than "Galileo! And, they probably would have gotten around to Copernicus! And I bet Bruno was really executed because of his science, and the other stuff was just an excuse!"

 

Heck, I'll even give half a point for Bruno. One and a half. Are we up to "purging all scientists" yet?

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To get our list going, here's some scientists purged by the Church:

 

Gregor Mendel (genetics)

Andre-Marie Ampere (discovered electromagnetism)

Blaise Pascal (physicist & mathematician)

Louis Pasteur (founder of microbiology)

Bishop Theodoric of Cervia (introduced antiseptic practices and anesthesia into surgery; 13th century)

 

Oh no, they weren't. The Curia must have been napping. Help me out; what year was The Purge?

-----------------------

ETA: I see I'm getting snarky, and also derailing the thread. I'll quit and go to bed.

Edited by Sharon in Austin
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I know it's much too early to feel this tired, and yet the fact remains that I am somehow too tired to address your question coherently. Tonight, I will just leave you with the thought that not all Christians view death as a punishment that God meted out for our sins. Strange, but true. :001_smile:

 

Oh wow! I did not know Christians thought that. Well I guess that answers that question. But isn't death equated with sickness and violence and tragedies and accidents and sorrow and crying and "yucky and bad"...to quote my 6 yo. How could God create that and call it good? I don't know if my brain could wrap around a paradigm shift of that magnitude.

 

Thank you for the podcast info. I am quite behind the times technologically (apparently theologically too. :001_smile:) but I at least have an inkling of an understanding to google around and find some articles.

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Thank you for the recommendation. I've never seen why evolution and Christianity are seen as opposed. JMHO of course.

 

They're not. By the Catholic Church.

 

I broke out the ice cream.

 

Call me a hopeless humanist, but I can't for the life of me understand why faith is trying to be put in the mold of science. Will science convince you of your faith? It seems very, very odd to me, like (to quote SG) "being in a Wallace Steven's poem with food poisoning". :)

 

What a great post.

 

I've never understood this either.

 

I think that how we believe the earth came into being has a lot to do with our understanding of faith and more importantly, our view of God. Each theory sets out your symbolic beginning of who you expect God to be.

 

If you believe God started it all in 6 days, zip, poof, pow then your God is zip, poof, pow. I get why people want the magic show--haven't we always wanted it? I mean, don't we just all love the shine and wonder of it all? Every age has a Pardoner, you know, and we want to buy it all? We want all of that and creation in 6 days feeds that. That is how you expect God to communicate with you. Flash bang, zip, poof, pow. A laser light show.

 

If you believe God pulled the big bang together with natural forces billions of years ago, that he used the process of natural selection to build this most amazing world, that he is so patient that millions of years of volcanoes, drips of water, mud, can come together to build this moment---then you know God's plan isn't over yet. It's taken billions of years to get here, to this moment, and I'm sure he's not done. You can walk, day by day, with faith that His work is slow and beautiful. That He takes the worst heavings of this world and works them into beauty and that he has years yet to work on us and this earth. You have an organic view of God. He speaks to you organically. It's a slow thing, as opposed to a drive through.

 

What I do know of God is that he never does things the way we expect. I love that show, The Naked Archeologist and how he delves into those bible stories and tries to work out how they might have happened with science and research. The things he finds seem natural-these natural occurrences that *were* miracles. And in hindsight, I see that God used the small natural occurrences to work the biggest miracles in MY life. Pushing me and pulling me here and there-backing me into places and making me turn over stones I wouldn't have previously-but it's all God and it's all organic. I think it's actually a more accessible view of God, and one that *for me* is even more miraculous.

 

OK, sorry for the sermon.

 

eta, and I'm tired of vilifying the scientists. God is the God of science and maybe they are showing us His glory. Just because it doesn't fit with our little box of doctrine doesn't mean it's not Him. Doctrine isn't God. He's bigger than that man made device.

 

Another great post. And the bolded part makes me think of this song from the musical Gypsy:

 

Let me entertain you,

Let me make you smile...

 

Let me do a few tricks,

Some old and then some new tricks;

I'm very versatile;

And if you're real good,

I'll make you feel good,

I want your spirit to climb;

So let me entertain you,

We'll have a real good time,

Yes sir!

We'll have... A real good time!

 

So, let me entertain you...

And we'll have a real good time,

yes, sir!

 

And if you're real good,

I'll make you feel good;

I want your spirit to climb;

Let me entertain you

And we'll have a real good time,

yes, sir!

We'll have... A real good time!

We'll have... A real good time!

 

Of course, Gypsy Rose Lee was a stripper. But it's an entertaining song from a very entertaining story. And she existed in real life. Just read the book. (or Wiki, or Natalie Wood on uTube)

Edited by asta
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