Two active threads here, as I am writing this...

[Greta]

Since this thread has been resurrected, I want to clarify something. I have very clear and strong feelings about the Amazon thing. I have mixed feelings about the McDonald's thing. But the contrast between the two stories was just shocking, and that was all I really intended to comment on.

 

I do think that the abysmal state of health and fitness in this country needs to be addressed, especially as it impacts children. I don't claim to know the best way to go about that.

[holdoll]

The "government" has not limited what people can put in their bodies, they limited marketing promotions associated with unhealthful meals aimed at children. Just as I'm sure they would if pedophile materials were being marketed to children.Bill

 

Don't be so sure.

[Spy Car]

Don't be so sure.

 

Care to elaborate?

 

Bill

[holdoll]

Bill,

 

You said, "Just as I'm sure they would if pedophile materials were being marketed to children."

 

I said, don't be so sure. As in, don't be so sure that they would restrict pedophile materials from being marketed to children.

[Spy Car]

Bill,

 

You said, "Just as I'm sure they would if pedophile materials were being marketed to children."

 

I said, don't be so sure. As in, don't be so sure that they would restrict pedophile materials from being marketed to children.

 

Gosh, I feel very confident that public officials would act swiftly if pedophiles began giving out sexual materials to children.

 

In this case we would be in favor of the "nanny-state" acting, correct? Or am I assuming too much?

 

Bill

[pqr]

The food wasn't make illegal, just the marketing gimmick of giving toys as incentives for demonstrably unhealthy meals aimed at children.

 

People are still free to not use common sense.

 

 

 

Should we also outlaw brightly colored packaging? Cereal packaging should be grey with images of fat kids on it...that will do the trick.

Candy bars.....evil incarnate....especially with names like "Smarties" or "Turkish Delight" or "Milky Way" (obviously the last is aimed at killing those nerdy astronomer kids). Rename them "Dysentery" and "Blocked Artery"....that will do the trick.

Perhaps what we should do is make the food taste really bad. Cod liver oil added to the burger..... that will do the trick.

There is a point where parents need to be left to make decisions without some intrusive bureaucrat with his "I know better attitude" inserting himself into the issue.

...but then again if we listen to the "It Takes a Village" crowd we can have 1984 in our lifetimes. Come on lets all go for the bland lumpen existence and simply listen to our betters then we won't need the freedom "not to use common sense". They will tell us how to live and prevent our being foolish.

 

Hand your kids over to the state, it does such a wonderful job educating them that it should be obvious to all that they will make better parents as well.

 

Seriously though, this is foolishness writ large. People are actually advocating removing a plastic toy from a meal and rather than being ashamed of supporting such a patently childish and pointless act they are defending it. Sometimes one simply must shake their head, is this what we have come to? Is the new bumper sticker now to be "Save the World Kill Happy Meal Toys"

[CoastalGal]

Should we also outlaw brightly colored packaging? Cereal packaging should be grey with images of fat kids on it...that will do the trick.

 

Candy bars.....evil incarnate....especially with names like "Smarties" or "Turkish Delight" or "Milky Way" (obviously the last is aimed at killing those nerdy astronomer kids). Rename them "Dysentery" and "Blocked Artery"....that will do the trick.

 

Perhaps what we should do is make the food taste really bad. Cod liver oil added to the burger..... that will do the trick.

 

There is a point where parents need to be left to make decisions without some intrusive bureaucrat with his "I know better attitude" inserting himself into the issue.

 

...but then again if we listen to the "It Takes a Village" crowd we can have 1984 in our lifetimes. Come on lets all go for the bland lumpen existence and simply listen to our betters then we won't need the freedom "not to use common sense". They will tell us how to live and prevent our being foolish.

 

Hand your kids over to the state, it does such a wonderful job educating them that it should be obvious to all that they will make better parents as well.

 

Seriously though, this is foolishness writ large. People are actually advocating removing a plastic toy from a meal and rather than being ashamed of supporting such a patently childish and pointless act they are defending it. Sometimes one simply must shake their head, is this what we have come to? Is the new bumper sticker now to be "Save the World Kill Happy Meal Toys"

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

:iagree:

[holdoll]

Gosh, I feel very confident that public officials would act swiftly if pedophiles began giving out sexual materials to children.

 

In this case we would be in favor of the "nanny-state" acting, correct? Or am I assuming too much?

 

Bill

 

I'm glad you're confident that public officials would act swiftly if pedophiles began giving out sexual materials to children. I am not.

 

You are assuming too much. I would not be in favor of the "nanny-state" acting, just as I am not in favor of them acting now.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I'm not counting on it. It is far easier to ignore common sense and accuse people of being "collectivists" and supporters of a nanny state than actually look at the facts. Sigh.

 

I wonder if the same people would support ending the advertising ban on marketing cigarettes to children using characters like Joe Camel and the like?

 

Bill

 

It is not a matter of common sense as you see it. I haven't seen anyone argue that fast food is good for kids or that it should form the basis of their diet. What has been argued is that the choice as to what food is good or bad for a child and how that decision is influenced is ultimately the parent's responsibility. What SF has done in their marketing restrictions is to effectively declare that parents in SF no longer have the wisdom to control their children's diet or the ability to say no or even to teach their children smart consumerism and basic nutritional facts. In order to combat perceived bad parenting that would allow children to run rampant by having toys included with their junk food they will nip the whole issue in the bud by removing any need to act as a parent in response to marketing campaigns. I don't like the government telling me that I am a bad parent if I buy a happy meal.

 

Gosh, I feel very confident that public officials would act swiftly if pedophiles began giving out sexual materials to children.

 

In this case we would be in favor of the "nanny-state" acting, correct? Or am I assuming too much?

 

Bill

 

Why only if pedophiles are giving out sexual materials to children? Oh yes-we must specify pedophiles because the public school system already gives out condoms and other sexual materials and information without parental consent. Therefore it could only be objected to if it were being given out by someone with criminal intent. Please...that was pathetic. Lots of parents have protested the giving out of sexual materials in the school system to no avail. Once again the "nanny state" knows better.

[lionfamily1999]

Why only if pedophiles are giving out sexual materials to children? Oh yes-we must specify pedophiles because the public school system already gives out condoms and other sexual materials and information without parental consent. Therefore it could only be objected to if it were being given out by someone with criminal intent. Please...that was pathetic. Lots of parents have protested the giving out of sexual materials in the school system to no avail. Once again the "nanny state" knows better.

Oh, but that's in the child's best interest :rolleyes:, it's completely different. :glare:

[cdrumm4448]

Anyone who even remotely equates a hamburger and fries with evil or pedophiles doesn't live on the same planet as I do.

 

And for the record (in our home) we do not consume food dye, HFCS, or hormone-filled meat or dairy. We do consume probiotics, supplements, and organic versions of most whole foods. When we leave our home, we occasionally partake in many banned foods.

[pqr]

Anyone who even remotely equates a hamburger and fries with evil or pedophiles doesn't live on the same planet as I do.

 

 

We Have IT!!!!!Proof that aliens exist.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Anyone who even remotely equates a hamburger and fries with evil or pedophiles doesn't live on the same planet as I do.

 

And for the record (in our home) we do not consume food dye, HFCS, or hormone-filled meat or dairy. We do consume probiotics, supplements, and organic versions of most whole foods. When we leave our home, we occasionally partake in many banned foods.

 

:iagree:

[lionfamily1999]

We Have IT!!!!!Proof that aliens exist.

:lol:

[Jean in Newcastle]

Is the new bumper sticker now to be "Save the World Kill Happy Meal Toys"

 

You have quite the knack for creating bumper stickers.;)

[Spy Car]

I'm glad you're confident that public officials would act swiftly if pedophiles began giving out sexual materials to children. I am not.

 

You are assuming too much. I would not be in favor of the "nanny-state" acting, just as I am not in favor of them acting now.

 

So, to be clear, if pedophiles were giving out sexual material to children you would prefer that public official not act to stop it? Do I understand that correctly?

 

Bill

[pqr]

So, to be clear, if pedophiles were giving out sexual material to children you would prefer that public official not act to stop it? Do I understand that correctly?

 

Bill

 

 

That is not the way I read what she said. I comprehended her words as being an indictment of public officials and the schools where they work. They cannot stop bullies, they cannot teach, they cannot maintain discipline, they do not seem to do much and it is a real stretch to assume that they could stop a pedophile.

 

They can it seems stop 13 year old boys from flying Old Glory on a bike, that they can do well.

Edited November 12, 2010 by pqr

[Spy Car]

That is not the way I read what she said. I comprehended her words as being an indictment of public officials and the schools where they work. They cannot stop bullies, they cannot teach, they cannot maintain discipline, they do not seem to do much and it is a real stretch to assume that they could stop a pedophile.

 

They can it seems stop 13 year old boys from flying Old Glory on a bike, that they can do well.

 

If a 13 year old brings an American flag to school with the aim of inciting racial hostility (which may or may not be the case here) he ought to be stopped.

 

We can't allow racists grab the flag, and they do try.

 

Schools can teach.

Bullies can be stopped.

So can pedophiles.

 

Bill

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

If a 13 year old brings an American flag to school with the aim of inciting racial hostility (which may or may not be the case here) he ought to be stopped.

 

We can't allow racists grab the flag, and they do try.

 

Schools can teach.

Bullies can be stopped.

So can pedophiles.

 

Bill

 

 

But Bill--it is the schools that are handing out the sexual materials to minors. There are already laws against pedophilia-what are we going to do about the non-pedophiles handing out such items. What sort of double standard is that? Other than another case of the "nanny state" trying to remove more of my rights as a parent.

 

And if we stop every kid with a flag we'll be stopping all the genuine patriots too. I'm not going to advocate the end of national pride just to spite some racists.

[cdrumm4448]

If a 13 year old brings an American flag to school with the aim of inciting racial hostility (which may or may not be the case here) he ought to be stopped.

 

We can't allow racists grab the flag, and they do try.

 

Schools can teach.

Bullies can be stopped.

So can pedophiles.

 

Bill

 

O.M.G.

 

I know my eyeballs will probably explode from the answer, but, how exactly does a 13-year-old incite racial violence by flying the American flag on his bike?

[cdrumm4448]

We Have IT!!!!!Proof that aliens exist.

 

Just ask my husband.:001_smile:

[pqr]

If a 13 year old brings an American flag to school with the aim of inciting racial hostility (which may or may not be the case here) he ought to be stopped.

 

We can't allow racists grab the flag, and they do try.

 

Schools can teach.

Bullies can be stopped.

So can pedophiles.

 

Bill

 

 

Schools can teach....but do not.

Bullies can be stopped....but are not

Pedophiles....please God let them be stopped.

 

The 13 year old DID NOT attempt to incite racial hostility even the school now says that is the case.

 

Racists grab the flag when good people do not fly her at every opportunity.

[PineFarmMom]

.

 

Both things are bad.

 

Bill

 

But not anywhere in the neighborhood of being comparable. It is ludicrous to even have them in the same post as bad things for kids.

 

Such nonsense.

[Jean in Newcastle]

If a 13 year old brings an American flag to school with the aim of inciting racial hostility (which may or may not be the case here) he ought to be stopped.

 

We can't allow racists grab the flag, and they do try.

 

Schools can teach.

Bullies can be stopped.

So can pedophiles.

 

Bill

 

Read the last of the articles that pqr linked (sorry, it is Fox). Or look at the part I quoted in a post earlier. Even the Superintendent admits that the 13 year old was fine. It was the bullies who needed to be stopped and that is where they are focusing their attentions now. The supervisor (not the Superintendent) who first banned the flag is not in trouble but has been overruled. Saner minds are handling the situation as it should have been handled from the beginning.

[Tea Time]

That is not the way I read what she said. I comprehended her words as being an indictment of public officials and the schools where they work. They cannot stop bullies, they cannot teach, they cannot maintain discipline, they do not seem to do much and it is a real stretch to assume that they could stop a pedophile.

 

They can it seems stop 13 year old boys from flying Old Glory on a bike, that they can do well.

 

Oh, I think you are being hard on them. They can collect taxes, AND they can provide child care for hours on end so that BOTH parents can work endlessly to pay them! Aren't we lucky!?

[pqr]

O.M.G.

 

I know my eyeballs will probably explode from the answer, but, how exactly does a 13-year-old incite racial violence by flying the American flag on his bike?

 

He does not.

 

Only someone who loathes this nation would be incited to violence by the sight of our flag. To argue otherwise has no merit, no logic and is quite simply silly.

[Spy Car]

O.M.G.

 

I know my eyeballs will probably explode from the answer, but, how exactly does a 13-year-old incite racial violence by flying the American flag on his bike?

 

Potentially (because I don't know what was in this boys heart) the exact same way the KKK and other xenophobic groups incites racial violence while flying the flag. Such things are not uncommon in this country. It is sick, but it happens.

 

Bill

[cdrumm4448]

He does not.

 

Only someone who loathes this nation would be incited to violence by the sight of our flag. To argue otherwise has no merit, no logic and is quite simply silly.

 

:iagree:

[cdrumm4448]

Potentially (because I don't know what was in this boys heart) the exact same way the KKK and other xenophobic groups incites racial violence while flying the flag. Such things are not uncommon in this country. It is sick, but it happens.

 

Bill

 

Bill, I have to say it. We are two completely, COMPLETELY different types of people. You're kind of freaking me out with your stretched connections.

[CoastalGal]

Bill, I have to say it. We are two completely, COMPLETELY different types of people. You're kind of freaking me out with your stretched connections.

 

:iagree: -- make that 3. ;)

[Spy Car]

 

Only someone who loathes this nation would be incited to violence by the sight of our flag. To argue otherwise has no merit, no logic and is quite simply silly.

 

Not true at all. I love this nation and if I see racists try use old Glory for their twisted purposes I might be incited to violence myself. True patriots don't allow our flag to be so disrespected and dishonored.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Bill, I have to say it. We are two completely, COMPLETELY different types of people. You're kind of freaking me out with your stretched connections.

 

You've never seen photos or been there in person when the Klan or Neo-Nazis groups go on parade? Are you being real? Racists do attempt to highjack our flag. We need to stop them.

 

Bill

[pqr]

Not true at all. I love this nation and if I see racists try use old Glory for their twisted purposes I might be incited to violence myself. True patriots don't allow our flag to be so disrespected and dishonored.

 

 

 

THE BOY IS NOT A RACIST! EVEN THE SCHOOL HAS NOW BACKED DOWN AND ADMITS THEIR ERROR!

 

 

True patriots don't assign racist intent to a 13 year old who has the flag on his bike. A boy with a flag makes us proud we congradulate him and his parents, it makes us confident in our future.

 

True patriots would never assume that our flag is racist or that even when the most loathesome people wave her that she is anything but pure.

 

Telling a 13 year old boy to remove the flag IS attempting to use her (the flag) for twisted purposes so are you now threatening the principal for corrupting the image of Old Glory?

[PineFarmMom]

Potentially (because I don't know what was in this boys heart) the exact same way the KKK and other xenophobic groups incites racial violence while flying the flag. Such things are not uncommon in this country. It is sick, but it happens.

 

Bill

 

So, if I have this straight, per you, someone should have no right to purchase a McDonald's meal for their dc, no right to the freedom of speech to carry/wave/display a flag if their motivations are racially charged, but every right to sell a book that would teach someone/encourage someone to cause horrible physical and emotional harm to a child? You need to pick a side of the fence to be on and try and stay there. :lol: Are you for freedom or are you not???

Edited November 12, 2010 by Texas T

[PineFarmMom]

THE BOY IS NOT A RACIST! EVEN THE SCHOOL HAS NOW BACKED DOWN AND ADMITS THEIR ERROR!

 

 

True patriots don't assign racist intent to a 13 year old who has the flag on his bike. A boy with a flag makes us proud we congradulate him and his parents, it makes us confident in our future.

 

True patriots would never assume that our flag is racist or that even when the most loathesome people wave her that she is anything but pure.

 

Telling a 13 year old boy to remove the flag IS attempting to use her (the flag) for twisted purposes so are you now threatening the principal for corrupting the image of Old Glory?

 

I think the bolded part is the real problem here.

[Mejane]

You've never seen photos or been there in person when the Klan or Neo-Nazis groups go on parade? Are you being real? Racists do attempt to highjack our flag.

 

 

Yes, and they have children they raise in their sick, twisted belief systems. I've seen five year olds spew this stuff. It's chilling.

 

That said, I don't believe this boy was being racist. It's just more PC crap, imo.

[Miss Peregrine]

.

Edited November 12, 2010 by Miss Peregrine

[cdrumm4448]

You've never seen photos or been there in person when the Klan or Neo-Nazis groups go on parade? Are you being real? Racists do attempt to highjack our flag. We need to stop them.

 

Bill

 

So, you are equating a 13-year-old boy with a flag on his bike to the KKK and Neo-Nazi groups. Correct?

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

What ever happened to that other great American principle-innocent until proven guilty? This boy has been hung out as a racist skinhead klan member without so much as a fair hearing.

[Spy Car]

So, you are equating a 13-year-old boy with a flag on his bike to the KKK and Neo-Nazi groups. Correct?

 

No. I have no idea if this is just a good sweet boy who just loves his country or if there is more to the story. Either seems like a possibility. It could very well be the school officials acted unwisely. Who knows?

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

What ever happened to that other great American principle-innocent until proven guilty? This boy has been hung out as a racist skinhead klan member without so much as a fair hearing.

 

Like that is what happened. Good grief.

 

Bill

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Like that is what happened. Good grief.

 

Bill

 

 

Actually, based on your earlier posts you had put him up as an example of a racist who had stolen the flag from patriots. This was both implicit and fairly explicit. Snide comments about needing the full story and thinking that there was more to the story than just a boy with a flag on his bike were enough to make me think that there was a great deal of presuming harmful intent rather than innocence.

 

Good grief indeed.

[BethInNH]

You've never seen photos or been there in person when the Klan or Neo-Nazis groups go on parade? Are you being real? Racists do attempt to highjack our flag. We need to stop them.

 

Bill

:iagree:

[BethInNH]

So, you are equating a 13-year-old boy with a flag on his bike to the KKK and Neo-Nazi groups. Correct?

 

I think you are twisting Bills words just a little here and completely missing the point he is trying to make. Sheesh.:glare:

[pqr]

I think you are twisting Bills words just a little here and completely missing the point he is trying to make. Sheesh.:glare:

 

I don't see how. Look on the other thread that was devoted to this event. There was an almost immediate assumption of guilt even after the school had stated that the boy was not at fault.

 

Yes there was the opt out but the below seems to assume more than just a patriotic young boy.

 

By Spy Car "If a 13 year old brings an American flag to school with the aim of inciting racial hostility (which may or may not be the case here) he ought to be stopped.

 

We can't allow racists grab the flag, and they do try."

Edited November 12, 2010 by pqr

[Spy Car]

So, if I have this straight, per you, someone should have no right to purchase a McDonald's meal for their dc

 

As has been repeated dozens of times food was not banned at Mc Donalds. You can still buy it if that is your will. What was outlawed was marketing toys as incentives for meals aimed at children when the meals don't meet very minimum standards of nutrition.

 

...no right to the freedom of speech to carry/wave/display a flag if their motivations are racially charged...

 

Racist groups like the KKK, neo-Nazis, and other xenophobic hate groups do have the right to march carrying the American flag under the protection of the First Ammendment. And they do so.

 

Does that mean they honor our flag when they do so, or our they showing the highest disrespect possible for our nation and our principles?

 

Students at schools, I believe, have been carved out rather more restrictive conditions for potentially inflamitory "speech" but it has been a long time since I've looked at the issue and it has been one of those issues that has been in "flux."

 

...but every right to sell a book that would teach someone/encourage someone to cause horrible physical and emotional harm to a child? You need to pick a side of the fence to be on and try and stay there. :lol: Are you for freedom or are you not???

 

People are also allowed to publish some pretty nasty filth (of which this guide I'd imagine has to be among the lowest of the low) under First Ammendment protections. That does not mean Amazon had to carry this crud and the anger they triggered when this was exposed is more than well justified as far as I'm concerned.

 

Bill

[cdrumm4448]

Potentially (because I don't know what was in this boys heart) the exact same way the KKK and other xenophobic groups incites racial violence while flying the flag. Such things are not uncommon in this country. It is sick, but it happens.

 

Bill

 

These are Bill's words. He is drawing a potential link between a 13-year-old boy with the American flag on his bike with the KKK and neo-Nazi groups.

 

Frankly, we live in America. So, we fly our flag. Anyone who does not appreciate and love our country can go somewhere they feel more comfortable.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that Bill has me on ignore because he is continuing to argue the possibility of a racist agenda despite the conclusion to this whole scenario - look back through the thread, people - pqr linked it, I quoted it. . . You can discuss protocol taking into account something like racist agendas but now that there are more facts in evidence about this particular case, you can't go down that rabbit trail anymore.

 

Also - at issue was not the flag itself but the protocol the school used in solving the problem. The Superintendent (whom I applaud, by the way) recognized that and corrected the school's approach.

[pqr]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/11/12/school-reverses-course-ordering-student-remove-flag-bike/

 

Boy wins!

[Spy Car]

I don't see how. Look on the other thread that was devoted to this event. There was an almost immediate assumption of guilt even after the school had stated that the boy was not at fault.

 

Yes there was the opt out but the below seem to assume more than a patriotic young boy.

 

By Spy Car "If a 13 year old brings an American flag to school with the aim of inciting racial hostility (which may or may not be the case here) he ought to be stopped.

 

We can't allow racists grab the flag, and they do try."

 

There is no assumption of guilt. I stated repeatedly that he may be entirely innocent, but he may not. And that given the history of racial tensions at this school and complains about the boy from other students at the school, that there may be more to the story than we get on Fox News.

 

Word twisting does not make for reason discussion.

 

If you don't want to recognize that people can fly our flag with a love of country and from the the best possible motives, while ofters will dishonor our flag by trying to use it to incite race-hate, then fine. Ignore reality if you choose.

 

Bill