Qin Dynasty?

[Aubrey]

I've got a book here that has the Qin Dynasty listed before the Han & another one that has them listed after. I can only find the later dates (265-420 AD) in one book, the rest have the earlier dates (221-206 BC). So I'm guessing either a) they lost power to the Hans & then got it back for a bit or b) the book w/ the later dates is complete rubbish.

 

I tend to think the best of anything in print, so I'm leaning toward a. Anybody actually know? :bigear:

[JennW in SoCal]

The Qin dynasty is the first, when the Qin king unified China in 221 BC and dubbed himself the "First Emperor of Qin", which is what Qin Shi Huang-di means. He died in 210 BC and the dynasty only lasted 4 more years.

 

The Han dynasty is roughly 200 BC to 200 AD.

 

Some books may give a broader swath of years for a couple of reasons. One is that Chinese scholars use a short hand and call it one dynasty -- the Qin/Han dynasty. The other is that there is a void of sorts between the unified Han dynasty and the Sui Dynasty that leads straight to the Tang dynasty. (The Tang is the other great dynasty of Chinese history).

 

I love getting a chance to dust my brain off for this stuff -- my degrees are in Chinese Studies, but it has been a loooooong time since I was in college :-)

[Aubrey]

Wow. You're awesome! I've been rereading the book that seemed to have the mistake, & their timeline has the Jin Dynasty after the Han, but the text has the Qin before Han & no text about the Jin, so I assumed they were the same.

 

Then they've done the same w/ the Wei & the Sui: the timeline has the Wei listed, but the text only talks about the Sui. :confused:

 

I've googled, among other things, & it looks like the Wei part of the timeline is like you said: a broad sweep, covering all of the Sui & part of the "Period of Division," & then the text is more specific to the Sui. Maybe.

 

The Jin Dynasty falls during the "Period of Division," too, as another book calls it, so I'm thinking it must be a specific period w/in that. But the lack of consistency between text & timeline in one book is driving me NUTS. And this is the best book on ancient China of the ones I brought home w/ my last library batch. :glare:

[Tattarrattat]

Here seems to be a pretty accurate timeline:

 

http://myweb.uiowa.edu/cfillebr/Pictures/background%20information%20pictures/chinese%20dynasties.gif

 

Han included Western Han (came first) and Eastern Han(came later), Jin included Western Jin and Eastern Jin (Western and Eastern Chin from the linked site. Personally I prefer the name Jin). Here the naming of western and eastern was based on the locations of the capital cities. Timeline-wise, one came after another.

 

Later on, the so-called Southern and Northern Dynasties co-existed in roughly the same period of time, with each including several short-period dynasties one by one.

 

It is indeed confusing. Hope this helps!

[JennW in SoCal]

I had wanted to add that those details are not important to know -- not for a general background in Chinese history for an elementary or even high school aged student.

 

What is important to understand is that the concept of a Dynasty and an Emperor came with the first Qin emperor. He unified the monetary and measurement systems of his empire, and that ideal of a unified China stuck for 2000 years, regardless of whether there was one unified empire or not. The idea of an emperor having the Mandate of Heaven stuck too, and when the empire was crumbling and fracturing, well, the mandate had clearly been removed and it was time to wait and see who would get it next. It could be hundreds of years, but it would come.

 

The details of where and when there was a Chin or a Northern or Southern Han dynasty are really only important to scholars of ancient Chinese history. The "biggies" to know so you get a good overview of Chinese history would be:

 

Confucius lived around 500BC, during the "flowering of Chinese culture" of the Spring and Autumn period

Qin/Han,

Three Kingdom period (the recent Red Cliffs movie is a great action movie based on the heroes of this period)

Sui/Tang -- Buddhism introduced (terrific book is Monkey: A Journey to the West by David Kherdian, a translated version of the popular Chinese epic)

Song

Yuan (when Marco Polo visited -- the first foreign dynasty thanks to Ghengis Khan)

Ming

Qing (Mongolian dynasty)

Republic - WWII & Japanese occupation & Communist China

 

The confusion in spelling comes from how scholars have romanized the language over the years. Chin is currently the correct pinyin romanization for Jin and Qin is the current correct romanization for Ch'in!!!

 

Hope that helps keep you from getting bogged down in the details of political structure. The culture -- the epics, poetry and art are much more interesting and worth your mental energy!

[Tattarrattat]

Qin and Jin are Pinyin which is the standard used by mainland China, Where Chin and Ch'in are used by Taiwan and certain other areas outside mainland China.

[Aubrey]

I had wanted to add that those details are not important to know -- not for a general background in Chinese history for an elementary or even high school aged student.

 

That's very helpful to know! Unfortunately, I can't learn something (much less teach it) when it's so confusing, so I'm having to sort things out for myself to a degree in order to grasp what's important. (The good news is I came to the same conclusion you outlined below, thanks to your help above & a lot of reading.) :001_smile:

 

What is important to understand is that the concept of a Dynasty and an Emperor came with the first Qin emperor. He unified the monetary and measurement systems of his empire, and that ideal of a unified China stuck for 2000 years, regardless of whether there was one unified empire or not. The idea of an emperor having the Mandate of Heaven stuck too, and when the empire was crumbling and fracturing, well, the mandate had clearly been removed and it was time to wait and see who would get it next. It could be hundreds of years, but it would come.

 

I love the way you've put this. You've hilighted some things--the concept of dynasty itself--that I'd missed. But dh pointed out that the Qin Dynasty didn't really qualify as a dynasty because it lasted only 15 yrs. Technically, I think he's got a good point, but more broadly speaking, the effects of this one man's reign are astounding.

 

My main point in all of this (prep for next yr) is just to determine how much time to spend on Ancient China. :D

 

The details of where and when there was a Chin or a Northern or Southern Han dynasty are really only important to scholars of ancient Chinese history. The "biggies" to know so you get a good overview of Chinese history would be:

 

Confucius lived around 500BC, during the "flowering of Chinese culture" of the Spring and Autumn period

 

Wait a minute--I read that he lived after that, during the warring period--& that it was that warfare that inspired his philosophy of peace.

 

I also read that the Spring & Autumn Period is so named because of a book written by that title during that time. But nothing else I've read so far gives any details beyond that, so while it sounds flowery & nice, nothing has actually said that that was so. Except, of course, that Huangdi wasn't ruling yet. ;)

 

Qin/Han,

Three Kingdom period (the recent Red Cliffs movie is a great action movie based on the heroes of this period) I haven't heard of it--is it appropriate for kids, or more of a background thing for me?

Sui/Tang -- Buddhism introduced (terrific book is Monkey: A Journey to the West by David Kherdian, a translated version of the popular Chinese epic)

Song For me or the kids? All my research right now is in the juvenile section, & if there are more than about 50 words on a page AND it's NOT historical fiction, my eyes glaze over. In my defense, I have a 2yo in my lap to whom I have to give a running narrative of the pictures that is not in line w/ the text. Otoh, my eyes glazed over at too many words on the page before I had kids. :lol:

Yuan (when Marco Polo visited -- the first foreign dynasty thanks to Ghengis Khan) Yes, I find it fascinating that Huangdi (bad guy) closed China off, but then GK (foreigner) opened trade. Both really seem like a violation, & given the foreign nature of the rule, it's really no surprise that the reaction to ousting the Mongols would be to slam the door on foreign trade, too.

Ming I haven't read much about this period & beyond yet--I'm considering the Sui Dynasty through the Ming to be "Medieval" & Qing to be "Early Modern." I'm not sure if that's a fair line to draw, but I'm trying to draw lines that are independent of western events (such as the fall of Rome) w/out being vastly different dates. What do you think?

Qing (Mongolian dynasty)

Republic - WWII & Japanese occupation & Communist China

 

The confusion in spelling comes from how scholars have romanized the language over the years. Chin is currently the correct pinyin romanization for Jin and Qin is the current correct romanization for Ch'in!!!

 

Hope that helps keep you from getting bogged down in the details of political structure. The culture -- the epics, poetry and art are much more interesting and worth your mental energy!

 

Thank you! I've got a stack of books that I've had to read through about 4x before it's started making sense. I think the book I started w/ was too general in the timeline, & that caused some confusion. I've found some I like better since then.

 

The "bones" of the Ancient Chinese history I've gathered so far are:

 

1. Confucius comes first. (Although the Oracle Bones before that are interesting.) Buddha is simultaneously (ish) doing his thing in India. (Irrelevant, but helpful to keeping Confucianism & Buddhism in order.)

 

2. First Emperor. Big Deal. Very. Important. to everything that follows in China, to some extent, even today. Totally cool archeaology going on now. Must read books w/ most recent pub date poss. So far am loving the narrative style of one from 2008. (Emperor Qin's Terra Cotta Army)

 

Plus, what a bad guy. Burning books is bad enough in the digital age. When monks & scribes are hand-copying stuff, it's insane to burn it. Bad!

 

3. Han Dynasty--not altogether great, but not burning books. Bringing back some of Confucius' ideas.

 

4. Division, & consequent confusion in what you read about this period. Alternately called "Period of Division" & "Three Kingdom Period." Some periods w/in this time are called "Wei Dynasty" some are called "Jin Dynasty," but broadly speaking, no one was able to get & hold control long enough to be much other than a mess. Not to be confused w/ the "Warring States Period" during the previous E Zhou Dynasty.

 

On a side note, these boards are SO cool. Even dh w/ a hist major thinks I'm crazy right now, & to have a place where there happens to be an expert in Chinese history--these boards might be Utopia! :D Thank you for your enthusiasm & help!:001_smile:

[Tattarrattat]

If you're interested in Jouney to the West, here is a link to Youtube video called Havoc in Heaven (Uproar in Heaven) which was part of Journey to the West stories)

 

Classical animation produced in 1960s, this was many people's first animation movie for those who grew up in China 30-40 years ago).

 

This one has English subtitle. If you'd like to watch more episodes, make sure to watch the ones posted by the same person since others' might not have the subtitle.

First episode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec9cFekSAME

 

They now have newly produced movies and TV series, but this classical one is still many people's favorite.

 

Some extra thoughts:

 

As for Three Kingdoms period, It might not be as important as Han or Tang, but it was very famous, partly because of the famous classical novel called San Guo Yan Yi (The Romance of the Three Kingdoms--though I wonder why they used the word Romance, it was not exactly the same meaning as the Chinese title). Certain stories from that book are well known almost among all Chinese families. Jin and Southern/Northern dynasties were not actually considered to be part of the Three Kingdoms. In Chinese, they usually memorize this period as "Three Kingdoms, Two Jins, Sourthern and Northern Dynasties". Of course it sounds more smoothly in Chinese than in English.

 

As for Song and Yuan, Han group people under Ghengis Khan(Yuan)'s ruling viewed Yuan as intruders so they never liked his ruling during then. Yuan put Han people under the third cast (four levels altogether) after the take-over. One important credit to Yuan dynasty was that Yuan ended the long-time divisions, unified China again, and ruled over the largest area in China's history.

 

I understand it's hard for people from other cutural background to memorize all the details unless it's someone who really studies Chinese history. However, there are so many exellent stories, idioms, literature, culture etc. that came out of those details. All these were interwined with history. Knowing more details seems to bring history to life. But again, you are right, that may not be realistic. For me, I grew up reading all the interesting historic stories first which brought my deep interest in the five thousand years of history later.

 

I'm so glad that you and many others are so interested in learning and studying China's history. I hold China's history, culture and literature dear to my heart.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Tattarrattat
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[Farrar]

For the kids, I think the best book about Monkey is Jili Jiang's The Magical Money King: Mischief in Heaven. Though I wish the old Chinese cartoon was easier to find.

[Matryoshka]

For the kids, I think the best book about Monkey is Jili Jiang's The Magical Money King: Mischief in Heaven. Though I wish the old Chinese cartoon was easier to find.

 

I read that to my kids when they were in about 2nd grade. They (and I) loved, loved, loved it! The only complaint I had is that it ended partway through the story! (Journey to the West is a looong story!)

 

I actually emailed the author to ask when more was coming! She actually answered back that she'd love to write another installment, but unfortunately the demand didn't seem to be there (I'm thinking that's her publisher's opinion...) :glare:

 

This is a timely thread, as we're just studing the Qin/Han.

 

I'm going to have my kids read the translation called "Monkey" translated by Arthur Waley. I pre-read it and it's quite enjoyable! Monkey is hilarious.

[Farrar]

I read that to my kids when they were in about 2nd grade. They (and I) loved, loved, loved it! The only complaint I had is that it ended partway through the story! (Journey to the West is a looong story!)

 

I actually emailed the author to ask when more was coming! She actually answered back that she'd love to write another installment, but unfortunately the demand didn't seem to be there (I'm thinking that's her publisher's opinion...) :glare:

 

This is a timely thread, as we're just studing the Qin/Han.

 

I'm going to have my kids read the translation called "Monkey" translated by Arthur Waley. I pre-read it and it's quite enjoyable! Monkey is hilarious.

 

I also love Monkey. And to me, if you wanted to be culturally literate about one story that every Chinese kid would know, I feel like the stories about the Monkey King are it. In the intro to Ji-li Jiang's children's book about Monkey, it's implied that she wants to write a whole series of them, but seeing as there weren't more, I figured it was decided there was no demand. Her memoir about the Cultural Revolution was a HUGE seller but this one is something you can't even find in the stores, so I'm assuming it was a publishing flop. It's really too bad.

[Tattarrattat]

This is a timely thread, as we're just studing the Qin/Han.

 

 

 

Journey to the West was actually based on Tang Dynasty around AD 629,(one of the most prosperous dynasties in China's history). The auther himself Wu Cheng En lived about 900 years after in Ming dynasty(around 1500s). West referred to where India is today.

 

It's nice to know translated English version of the book is available.