Poll: Is marriage forever?

[katemary63]

This probably won't be popular here, and I'm certainly prepared to don my flameproof suit, but I believe that if you have even the slightest inkling that you can't/won't do it forever, then don't get married in the first place. Live with your love until it lasts and move on when you're done. And, don't have kids either. Just because you decide you don't love someone anymore doesn't mean they still don't, and it certainly isn't fair to break their hearts along with your partner's.

 

:iagree: I agree with this, but I also know it isn't always this simple.

[Melissa in Australia]

I had always been a marriage is forever person, unless something really bad makes that impossible. But, I can say that when the old conversation about how my husband settled for me in the looks department comes back, it hurts me so bad that I can say I would probably leave if it weren't for the kids. I just cannot handle feeling like he finds my appearance so important that he feels it is an area of settling -- that it's so important. I mean, I can see if I weren't a good mom or if I weren't intelligent enough to carry on conversations or something like that. But, to call it settling just because I'm not the hottest person out there. I think I can do better than someone like that. I was always so naive to think that you just wanted to be attracted to your spouse. I didn't realize people could settle on such a shallow thing.

 

Ha!

My Dh told me just after we got married that he married me because he was ready to have kids and I am from good breading stock!!:glare:

when I got a surprise pregnancy with no5 ( had tubes tied) I reminded him of this.

[eternalknot]

I fall into the serial monogomy camp. I think some couples can/will make it forever, and some will not. I think biological factors come into play here (e.g., postering/abuse, adultery, reproduction) as do social factors (e.g., faith beliefs, social mores). We're all somewhere on the spectrum as individuals, as to what we believe and what we're willing to invest of ourselves. We're also somewhere on the spectrum as a couple, as to what we believe and what we're willing to invest of our coupledom. It's so variable, and TOO variable IMO to have a clear and concrete answer - whether for my own marriage, or society, or even humankind as a whole.

 

I had always been a marriage is forever person, unless something really bad makes that impossible. But, I can say that when the old conversation about how my husband settled for me in the looks department comes back, it hurts me so bad that I can say I would probably leave if it weren't for the kids. I just cannot handle feeling like he finds my appearance so important that he feels it is an area of settling -- that it's so important. I mean, I can see if I weren't a good mom or if I weren't intelligent enough to carry on conversations or something like that. But, to call it settling just because I'm not the hottest person out there. I think I can do better than someone like that. I was always so naive to think that you just wanted to be attracted to your spouse. I didn't realize people could settle on such a shallow thing.

 

Reading other posts, it seems you've shared this with the board before. I'm not familiar with the experience, so I hope I'm not too out of line in replying. I can see how it would feel incredibly hurtful to hear those words, and to have that gnawing at you every single day. You are who you are, and if that's good enough for you - why wouldn't it be good enough for the man you love? for the man who loves you? That would wound me to the core.

 

Is he routinely matter-of-fact about things? I am, to a fault. I don't always take into account how my words (true or not) are going to be received. I lack tact, not for wont of trying; it's not intuitive to me. Along with that comes very thick skin of my own, though. I could see myself sharing a thought like that with my husband, fully intending it to be a fact (there are more handsome men out there, maybe even a specific one I could have instead chosen to be with). i can also see him taking that fact and hurting that I feel that way and also that I had the nerve to share it. Me, I'd rather know and I have a stubborn self-esteem so those tend to drive the things I say. Who knows if it's a personality quirk, or a survivial mechanism - you know?

 

I read his words (and just the ones you wrote above, without knowing the background) as saying that sure -- he doesn't think you're the most beautiful person in the world [and he feels it would be dishonest to pretend otherwise] but that shallow as that is, he values you so much more than what you look like. I read his feeling as he has settled in the looks area, not settled in the wife area. That's a big distinction as far as how he values your conversational skills, mothering abilities, and intelligence! And who knows, maybe you settled in the looks area as well - you just look at it as "Hey, I'm still attracted to you even if you're not movie start hot" whereas he is just more matter-of-fact and feeling the same (just expressing it much less well). I don't know, just throwing it out there.

 

All that to say, you two seemed evenly matched - nobody looks like they've settled for anyone in the looks department. Not that that matters, just an observation. Most of us are average-looking folks, married to average-looking folks. At different points in our lives, we sometimes get delusional about 'our league' or forgetful about how middle age has affected our place in our league's pecking order ;) And by we, I'm suggesting him.

 

My foot is almost always in my mouth, and not because I'm mean or blind or unappreciative but because I'm a crappy communicator and somewhat clueless about tact and consideration. Maybe he is, too. I know that wouldn't erase the hurtful realization that he feels that way, but perhaps it would keep it from gnawing at you the way that it must. It's more to do with him, and his communication style (or lack thereof) than it is to do with you.

 

Is marriage "supposed" to be forever? Yes. (Otherwise, why marry? :confused: )

 

Social mores can influence marriage trends - whether it's because "that's what you do at x-age" or "that's what non-homosexual males do" or "that's what unhitched pregnant females do" ... there are many avenues towards marriage, and even towards parenthood. Some people are more prone to social pressure, some people are more prone to (social) obedience and doing what's always been done. And by people, I mean both individually and culturally.

 

Social pressure can take legal form, too - ask anyone who wants to be married but isn't legally permitted to be. Married couples have legal rights and social rights that aren't always available to unmarried couples.

 

But say neither of those are issues and we're speaking purely ideologically -- why would Woman A want to marry Man B if neither believed it was supposed to be forever? Honestly, I wonder the same thing! Any relationship is a commitment and involves agreement between two parties; a marriage is a contract between those two parties - both legally, and spiritually for many. Relationships evolve (not just marriages, but all relationships personal or otherwise) and it stands to reason that contracts are routinely subject to renegotiated.

 

Again, some couples will weather the storms and rough patches to renegotiate the terms of their contract, or marriage. Some couples will terminate the contract, or marriage, and find a new one that suits their needs and expectations of a commitment. It's unromantic to think of it as a business of shared resources, but that's precicely what a marriage is. The love is nice, but it's extra. The mutual respect and shared expectations are key. When the resources or expectations of shared resources change, a renegotiation is warranted -- some couples make it, others break it. It's not for me to say which is preferable, I think that really just depends on the couple, their society, and their resources. It's too subjective to be black/white.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

Eh?! Uhm, the EO permits up to three marriages, due to death or divorce.

 

You are right. God is merciful. I was commenting on the OP statement about how marriage is supposed to be.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

To be quite honest, I do look better in the pictures I post than in real life. I mean, I don't photoshop them or anything, but my husband is not the first man to tell me I'm not good enough looking for him. I had been used to it. I was best friends with a guy for five years who loved everything about me, but he couldn't make himself find me attractive enough. The sad thing is, because of a stroke, he is now legally blind. I just never realized my husband felt this way until a few months ago.

 

Your husband needs glasses. Or a brain transplant. I can't believe anyone would say anything like that to you. You are beautiful. And, for what it's worth, your friend who is now blind sounds like a closet homosexual. I'm not saying that to be mean, I'm saying that out of personal experience.

[mommaduck]

You are right. God is merciful. I was commenting on the OP statement about how marriage is supposed to be.

There is neither giving nor taking in marriage in heaven...so my understanding is that there is no marriage in heaven, thus marriage is only temporal (here on earth) ;)

[Wayfaring Stranger]

There is neither giving nor taking in marriage in heaven...so my understanding is that there is no marriage in heaven, thus marriage is only temporal (here on earth) ;)

 

Notice it says no "giving or taking" it does not say there is no marriage. If you are married on earth you will continue to be in heaven. This is the churches understanding of marriage.

[mommaduck]

Dawn, your hubby needs to be set straight. Bad enough he thinks that way, way worse that he even said such a thing.

 

My husband and I were best friends. We still are. I couldn't cook when we got married. I was 100lbs and sorely lacking in the BooKs department. I couldn't look people in the eye, couldn't cut the string to boulder held over my head by my mother and stepdad, couldn't stand up for myself. Now, we are still best friends. I can cook, have gained 80lbs (though I could lose 40lbs after this baby), I stand up for myself and don't let anyone try to put their guilt trips on me, etc. We look forward to growing old together, Lord Willing. I've been with him most of my life already.

Edited November 8, 2010 by mommaduck

[mommaduck]

Notice it says no "giving or taking" it does not say there is no marriage. If you are married on earth you will continue to be in heaven. This is the churches understanding of marriage.

I will have to speak to my priest on this. If this was how the Church saw this issue, then I don't believe they would be willing to marry widows and widowers to another spouse after death of the first. You are the first EO person I've ever heard say this. For the moment, we will have to politely disagree as to what the Church's stand is.

Edited November 8, 2010 by mommaduck

[*********]

I voted that yes, it is forever. That does not mean that there are situations where a *legal* divorce is necessary. It does, however, mean that while I might have been legally divorced, I am still married under the sacrament of marriage and would not be able to remarry until my husband died.

 

:iagree: This is my belief as well.

 

ETA: Just as clarification, my husband was not married before. My stepkids were born out of wedlock. Otherwise, I would consider my husband still married to her, and would not have been free to marry him until she died.

Edited November 8, 2010 by bethanyniez

[lionfamily1999]

I realize sometimes things happen beyond our control, but is taking those vows a lifetime thing, for better or worse like it says, or just until things change and one or the other wants out? I'm not even going to include an other. :tongue_smilie:

 

A discussion on another board drifted to the idea of a 5 or 10 year expiration of the marriage license, and it made me wonder whether most people think it's supposed to be forever.

It's supposed to be forever, but I think we should move away from state's issuing marraige licenses and start something different (that would not be based on the idea of marraige at all). Civil unions, coming from the state and I've spoken with (and agreed with) people that thought if there was as radical a change as all that, then there should be an expiration date, but you should be able to choose if you want a "forever" civil union as well.

[IsabelC]

Is marriage forever? For me, yes. That's how I see it, and that's what I signed up for with my man. I don't make promises lightly, and it would take an extreme situation before I would break my vows. For other people, I have no opinion. I believe that consenting adults should be free to form any kind of relationship, for any length of time that is mutually agreeable.

[simka2]

I had always been a marriage is forever person, unless something really bad makes that impossible. But, I can say that when the old conversation about how my husband settled for me in the looks department comes back, it hurts me so bad that I can say I would probably leave if it weren't for the kids. I just cannot handle feeling like he finds my appearance so important that he feels it is an area of settling -- that it's so important. I mean, I can see if I weren't a good mom or if I weren't intelligent enough to carry on conversations or something like that. But, to call it settling just because I'm not the hottest person out there. I think I can do better than someone like that. I was always so naive to think that you just wanted to be attracted to your spouse. I didn't realize people could settle on such a shallow thing.

 

I had tried to stay away from commenting on this. The pain and anger I felt for you were enough to make me realize I wasn't going to be totally rational.

 

I ran the scenario by my dh and he was somewhat shocked, but said "It sounds like her dh may be projecting his own insecurities, about himself, on her."

 

If it was said early in your marriage it could be a mix of insecurity and immaturity...the problem is the words never go away. I hope he has somehow been able to redeem himself over the years...if not, I'm with you in that some marriages are not forever!!!

 

I have seen stunning women look hideous, because of their personality. And plain woman look stunning, because of theirs!

 

I know woman who were plain in their 20s and 30s, bloom beautifully in their 40's and 50's. While those who were beautiful in their 20s and 30s seem to fade and wither in their 40s and 50s.

 

You are beautiful and stunning!!! Unless you are airbrushing your photos, they reflect you!

[Impish]

I said it is forever but that does not include abuse or adultery.

 

:iagree::iagree:With the caveat that a marriage may survive a one-time case of adultery, but repeated adultery--no.

:iagree:

To be quite honest, I do look better in the pictures I post than in real life. I mean, I don't photoshop them or anything, but my husband is not the first man to tell me I'm not good enough looking for him. I had been used to it. I was best friends with a guy for five years who loved everything about me, but he couldn't make himself find me attractive enough. The sad thing is, because of a stroke, he is now legally blind. I just never realized my husband felt this way until a few months ago.

 

we don't believe you. We've seen several pictures of you. They all can't just be good shots. Maybe some of the pictures that you think look like YOU are *BAD* shots?

 

I think your scars run deep because of the boyfriend and now your husband. I hope you can heal. We find you beautiful and hope you will do so yourself one day.:grouphug:

 

ETA: I'm with LauraGB on this one. I'm not trying to be nice, I'm being HONEST. But I do hope you think I'm nice outside this thread. :blush:

I agree completely!

I'm going to assume we're not talking about situations of abuse, because that's a whole other ball game, AFAIC. If we're not talking about that, then...

 

This probably won't be popular here, and I'm certainly prepared to don my flameproof suit, but I believe that if you have even the slightest inkling that you can't/won't do it forever, then don't get married in the first place. Live with your love until it lasts and move on when you're done. And, don't have kids either. Just because you decide you don't love someone anymore doesn't mean they still don't, and it certainly isn't fair to break their hearts along with your partner's.

Absolutely!!!

I think you ought to get your husband to a doctor. Evidence seems to support that he is blind as well.

That too!

[Wayfaring Stranger]

I will have to speak to my priest on this. If this was how the Church saw this issue, then I don't believe they would be willing to marry widows and widowers to another spouse after death of the first. You are the first EO person I've ever heard say this. For the moment, we will have to politely disagree as to what the Church's stand is.

 

This explains the EO view better than I can. http://orthodoxwiki.org/Marriage

Edited November 8, 2010 by Father of Pearl

[Susie in SWVA]

From our marraige vows 36 years ago - "until God shall separate us by death."

 

Susie in SWVA

[Tammy]

I agree! Life changes....people change....it is tough to remain together 'forever'!

 

.

[mommaduck]

I agree! Life changes....people change....it is tough to remain together 'forever'!

 

.

I don't think anyone is saying that it's easy ;) It is difficult and life can throw some doozies your way.

[Tammy]

Yes....and sometimes you just simply grow apart....and I don't think anything is wrong with that. I think everyone deserves to be happy....and if you are not happy with your mate....then move on.

 

.

[Nestof3]

Thank you. No, it was said a few months ago when Aaron began looking for female companionship. He said Aaron has a lot to offer a woman, so he won't have to settle like he did. John always brags about my character, my intelligence, etc., so I asked for clarification. It was referring to my appearance. He said, "we don't plant ugly flowers, what's wrong with wanting a beautiful woman?"

 

I said, "I don't think you settled at all. I think I am quite a catch (I wasn't referring to merely the physical -- I just meant in general, I feel I have a lot to offer a person."

 

He replied, "Yeah, that's why no one wanted you. You were 25 and the only one that wanted you was a divorced 38 year old with a kid. I was mature enough to choose based on what's most important."

 

I had tried to stay away from commenting on this. The pain and anger I felt for you were enough to make me realize I wasn't going to be totally rational.

 

I ran the scenario by my dh and he was somewhat shocked, but said "It sounds like her dh may be projecting his own insecurities, about himself, on her."

 

If it was said early in your marriage it could be a mix of insecurity and immaturity...the problem is the words never go away. I hope he has somehow been able to redeem himself over the years...if not, I'm with you in that some marriages are not forever!!!

 

I have seen stunning women look hideous, because of their personality. And plain woman look stunning, because of theirs!

 

I know woman who were plain in their 20s and 30s, bloom beautifully in their 40's and 50's. While those who were beautiful in their 20s and 30s seem to fade and wither in their 40s and 50s.

 

You are beautiful and stunning!!! Unless you are airbrushing your photos, they reflect you!

[lionfamily1999]

Thank you. No, it was said a few months ago when Aaron began looking for female companionship. He said Aaron has a lot to offer a woman, so he won't have to settle like he did. John always brags about my character, my intelligence, etc., so I asked for clarification. It was referring to my appearance. He said, "we don't plant ugly flowers, what's wrong with wanting a beautiful woman?"

 

I said, "I don't think you settled at all. I think I am quite a catch (I wasn't referring to merely the physical -- I just meant in general, I feel I have a lot to offer a person."

 

He replied, "Yeah, that's why no one wanted you. You were 25 and the only one that wanted you was a divorced 38 year old with a kid. I was mature enough to choose based on what's most important."

Oh my.

 

I can't even fuse my thoughts into a coherant response.

 

Wow.

 

I might move out onto the couch after that. I could not imagine allowing dh to touch me, or heck LOOK at me after he said something like that.

 

:grouphug:

 

Wow.

[Nestof3]

Oh my.

 

 

I might move out onto the couch after that. I could not imagine allowing dh to touch me, or heck LOOK at me after he said something like that.

 

:grouphug:

 

Wow.

 

It has been very, very hard, but I do. When I tell him the comments hurt me very bad, he says I am too insecure.

[SailorMom]

Dawn - first - :grouphug:

Next, looking at the age of your husband, it seems to me he is going through some sort of mid-life crisis thing here. Something else is going on for a man to say that to his wife. I really hope somehow you two can get to a therapist and work this out, and I highly doubt your picture misrepresents you..... and even if it did - even if you were absolutely hideous (which you are NOT!), there is something far more deeply wrong than what he is letting on.

Remember, men (in general - not all of them....) can be horrible communicators to begin with, and if they are having any sort of depression or crisis - they get worse.... Also - they take it out on those they feel closest to and safest with.

Prayers to you both......:grouphug:

[lionfamily1999]

It has been very, very hard, but I do. When I tell him the comments hurt me very bad, he says I am too insecure.

Ah well, he's a lot of expletives that I won't say, because if you work this out, you'll hate me for having said it ;)

[Harriet Vane]

Thank you. No, it was said a few months ago when Aaron began looking for female companionship. He said Aaron has a lot to offer a woman, so he won't have to settle like he did. John always brags about my character, my intelligence, etc., so I asked for clarification. It was referring to my appearance. He said, "we don't plant ugly flowers, what's wrong with wanting a beautiful woman?"

 

I said, "I don't think you settled at all. I think I am quite a catch (I wasn't referring to merely the physical -- I just meant in general, I feel I have a lot to offer a person."

 

He replied, "Yeah, that's why no one wanted you. You were 25 and the only one that wanted you was a divorced 38 year old with a kid. I was mature enough to choose based on what's most important."

:grouphug:

[Renee in NC]

What about annulments? I know several Catholics who have annulments, but I don't know how all that works.

 

If the initial marriage is not valid (there are various reasons), then an annulment can be granted. In my case, I could not pursue annulment because it would be a lie. Honestly, annulments get granted pretty liberally in this country.

[Renee in NC]

It's been more than a few months Dawn. I remember the first time you ever mentioned it. I was in shock. I felt as if I was punched in the stomach and my blood was boiling at the same time. Honestly, it broke my heart. Enough that I have given it a lot of though. I ask my hubby to look at your pictures and visit your website and tell me what he thought. No leading questions. He said you were adorable and then when I told him why I asked he said your hubby was insane. So after much thought and consideration, I have come to the conclusion that your hubby says that (and maybe even believes it) because he wants to think that he could have done better when the truth of the matter is he probably couldn't. I also think that some particular event in your past set you up to believe this yourself and that you hubby is aware of this and has used it to his advantage (once again possibly without even knowing it). In any case, don't buy it. Don't believe it and don't let it effect your self esteem. If you can't do it yourself then find a therapist and a friends who can support you in this. And listen to all the women here (and their hubbies) who tell you that you are truly beautiful. :grouphug:

 

:iagree:

 

Dawn, you are a lovely woman who married a much older man and took his child and raised him as your own. You take care of the house, the books for his business, and the children. You are intelligent and educated. On top of that, you are a nice looking woman who tried hard to look good (and if you weren't, he should *still* worship the ground you walk on.) The problem is his, not yours and almost certainly covers up his own feelings of inadequacy!

[OregonNative]

A discussion on another board drifted to the idea of a 5 or 10 year expiration of the marriage license, and it made me wonder whether most people think it's supposed to be forever.

This is a sure sign of the times. Nauseating!

[OregonNative]

I said it is forever but that does not include abuse or adultery.

 

The same goes for me-

[Nestof3]

It's really more something I am just trying to come to terms with -- something I am trying to accept. As my husband pointed out, Jacob chose Rachel because she was beautiful instead of Leah (though he knew neither of them).

 

Even our eldest when he was interested in a young lady for while, who I found adorable and pretty, was worried what people would say because he could do better.

 

I just read a book called The Three Princes, and it was all about how these three men wanted this one princess because she was the most beautiful. In the end, they were consoled by the fact that there were other beautiful princesses in the lands.

 

I just think differently. I don't care how my guy compares to others in his looks. As long as I am attracted, I don't see how I could settle. I don't have a need try to get the most attractive person.

 

My dh, on the other hand, is very envious that some guys are able to get the top of the ladder. He begrudges the fact that he could never get a cheerleader, for example. I don't understand that line of thinking, but I am trying to accept it as a man thing and move on.

 

Ah well, he's a lot of expletives that I won't say, because if you work this out, you'll hate me for having said it ;)

[amy g.]

Dawn, I have 2 nosy questions.

 

First, did the best friend say he did not find you attractive, or did he say he was not attracted to you in a romantic way?

 

I think it makes a difference. I had a guy friend who I LOVED, but had no chemistry with. It's not a reflection on his appearance. He is so handsome, and smart and cultured and funny and I still love being friends with him after almost 30 years of friendship, but we are not compatible romantically. Fortunately, we never complicated our relationship with that sort of feelings.

 

Second, does your father have an INKLING that your husband has said these hateful things? That might explain his recent attitude. My husband would plot and destroy any man who suggested one of his daughters wasn't beautiful enough.

 

I'm so sorry that this happened to you. I do not believe you are the insecure partner.

[Nestof3]

1. Yes, he said he didn't find me attractive enough. He was attracted to me, but he found other women that were more attractive, so he wouldn't -- gosh, I think settle would be the right word.

 

But, he went to my graduation instead of his girlfriend's (who he found very attractive).

 

Invited me to go down with him when his dad died of cancer (instead of said girlfriend).

 

Men are very confusing. Sometimes I feel like I don't know how to raise my boys since I don't understand them.

 

2. No, he has no idea. The only reason I have mentioned it here is because it is not the sort of thing I would mention to those close to me in real life.

 

Dawn, I have 2 nosy questions.

 

First, did the best friend say he did not find you attractive, or did he say he was not attracted to you in a romantic way?

 

I think it makes a difference. I had a guy friend who I LOVED, but had no chemistry with. It's not a reflection on his appearance. He is so handsome, and smart and cultured and funny and I still love being friends with him after almost 30 years of friendship, but we are not compatible romantically. Fortunately, we never complicated our relationship with that sort of feelings.

 

Second, does your father have an INKLING that your husband has said these hateful things? That might explain his recent attitude. My husband would plot and destroy any man who suggested one of his daughters wasn't beautiful enough.

 

I'm so sorry that this happened to you. I do not believe you are the insecure partner.

[Impish]

Yes....and sometimes you just simply grow apart....and I don't think anything is wrong with that. I think everyone deserves to be happy....and if you are not happy with your mate....then move on.

 

.

I'm not the woman Wolf married. Heck, I'm not the woman I was three years ago! I've changed tremendously during our marriage...changed my heart to the good, physically to the bad.

 

The thing of it is, making the time to work on our marriage together, to ensure we're not strangers, growing apart.

 

I personally think 'growing apart' is code for 'we got too busy being individuals to put time into our marriage'. Growing apart, to me, would be able to be fixed in at least some of the cases, with some hard work and time.

 

I say this based on ppl I've known who divorced for 'growing apart'. The one cpl was still sleeping together and went to the court house for the divorce papers after getting out of bed! Say huh?

 

Marriage is not going to make a person 'happy'. It boils down to that person, that individual. You can't expect your spouse or marriage to make you happy. Everyone has a personal responsibility in that.

 

I think we've become a disposable society. The minute something bores us, or doesn't make us happy, we want something to replace it. If our marriage isn't magically delicious (sorry, couldn't resist) then its time to leave.

 

But what ever happened to working on it? Life isn't going to make you happy all the time, so how can another human being carry that burden?

 

I realize, in my marriage, that I can't make Wolf solely responsible for my happiness. That's not fair. At the same time, I accept that marriage isn't going to be all bells and whistles all the time. We're in reality, not sitcom. But I'll weather the storms with him, believing in all my heart, "...in good times and in bad, as long as you both shall live"

[MelanieM]

The only problem with that is that we aren't always "happy" and is someone else really responsible for our happiness? I guess it makes me think of a couple of examples. A neighbor across the street left a wonderful husband because she wasn't "happy". Turns out she thought that someone else looked better. Things didn't turn out as she had hoped and her ex-husband is the only one happily remarried. I had another neighbor decide that she was too beautiful to be married to a teacher. She wanted someone who made more money and was sure she could achieve that. It's been over 20 years, and last I heard she's living with her sister in a small condo.

Sometimes it's about commitment through the ups and downs. If we weren't committed during the valleys, we would never experience the mountains. One day we may wake up and not feel "happy", but if we remain committed we can end up with an even deeper happiness that we could have imagined.

Again, not talking about abuse, adultery, etc.

 

This makes me smile, because the last thing in the world I would ever say is that anyone is responsible for my happiness! In fact, I'm on the other very extreme end of things where I believe that everything happening around me is a reflection of my own inner landscape, and the only one responsible for what happens in my life is me. In other words, my happiness is *my* choice, and my husband is under no obligation to be anything other than himself. This is actually why it works for us to own our feelings, our behaviour, and our perspective and to allow our relationship to be one of ongoing choice.

 

I imagine anyone who feels it is ever ok to blame someone else for how they feel, or to saddle another person with the responsibility of making them happy would have a hard time living in my world, or perhaps even understanding what I'm talking about. Surely the foundation of our worldview has a lot to do with how we perceive these types of things. :)

[mommaduck]

I'm not the woman Wolf married. Heck, I'm not the woman I was three years ago! I've changed tremendously during our marriage...changed my heart to the good, physically to the bad.

 

The thing of it is, making the time to work on our marriage together, to ensure we're not strangers, growing apart.

 

I personally think 'growing apart' is code for 'we got too busy being individuals to put time into our marriage'. Growing apart, to me, would be able to be fixed in at least some of the cases, with some hard work and time.

 

I say this based on ppl I've known who divorced for 'growing apart'. The one cpl was still sleeping together and went to the court house for the divorce papers after getting out of bed! Say huh?

 

Marriage is not going to make a person 'happy'. It boils down to that person, that individual. You can't expect your spouse or marriage to make you happy. Everyone has a personal responsibility in that.

 

I think we've become a disposable society. The minute something bores us, or doesn't make us happy, we want something to replace it. If our marriage isn't magically delicious (sorry, couldn't resist) then its time to leave.

 

But what ever happened to working on it? Life isn't going to make you happy all the time, so how can another human being carry that burden?

 

I realize, in my marriage, that I can't make Wolf solely responsible for my happiness. That's not fair. At the same time, I accept that marriage isn't going to be all bells and whistles all the time. We're in reality, not sitcom. But I'll weather the storms with him, believing in all my heart, "...in good times and in bad, as long as you both shall live"

:iagree:

[FloridaLisa]

The traditional view of marriage is that it is a covenant between two people that only death will part. Our family recently studied "Covenant" through Precepts. While looking primarily at God's covenant with man, it led me to such a deep understanding of a marriage covenant. Most of what is done in a traditional Anglo marriage ceremony is based on ancient customs of cutting a covenant. Highly recommended if you're looking for a great Bible study!

 

Lisa

[LauraGB]

Ah well, he's a lot of expletives that I won't say, because if you work this out, you'll hate me for having said it ;)

 

Same here.

 

Dawn, did he say these things about you in front of your son? At the very least, I'd use it to Aaron's advantage by letting him know what a hurtful, asinine thing it was to say in the hopes that he never, ever does it - as an example of how NOT to be.

 

:grouphug:

[TammyinTN]

For us --dh and myself it is forever. We are going on year 24 and I can't imagine life without my bestfriend/lover. He hung the moon. I knew this when I met him when I was just 13. We became friends for 5 years and dated after that and then married. We worked hard together to get him through 8 years of college and have done quite well in the military afterward. I have to think we were successful because we worked hard at staying together and never letting divorce be an option.

[Pretty in Pink]

(((Dawn)))

 

I cannot believe that what your dh said has much to do with you at all. You are very pretty, truly. Anyone can see that. Your husband must need his vision checked.

 

I am so sorry that he said those things to you. :grouphug:

[Retired]

:iagree: I think the intent should be forever but sometimes it is necessary to divorce for terrible situations like abuse and adultery. Although, sometimes marriages can be saved from what I have heard even when there is an instance of adultery. I do not believe people should persevere in situations with abuse though.

 

:iagree:

[lionfamily1999]

It's really more something I am just trying to come to terms with -- something I am trying to accept. As my husband pointed out, Jacob chose Rachel because she was beautiful instead of Leah (though he knew neither of them).

 

Even our eldest when he was interested in a young lady for while, who I found adorable and pretty, was worried what people would say because he could do better.

 

I just read a book called The Three Princes, and it was all about how these three men wanted this one princess because she was the most beautiful. In the end, they were consoled by the fact that there were other beautiful princesses in the lands.

 

I just think differently. I don't care how my guy compares to others in his looks. As long as I am attracted, I don't see how I could settle. I don't have a need try to get the most attractive person.

 

My dh, on the other hand, is very envious that some guys are able to get the top of the ladder. He begrudges the fact that he could never get a cheerleader, for example. I don't understand that line of thinking, but I am trying to accept it as a man thing and move on...

(I combined your posts)

1. Yes, he said he didn't find me attractive enough. He was attracted to me, but he found other women that were more attractive, so he wouldn't -- gosh, I think settle would be the right word.

 

But, he went to my graduation instead of his girlfriend's (who he found very attractive).

 

Invited me to go down with him when his dad died of cancer (instead of said girlfriend).

 

Men are very confusing. Sometimes I feel like I don't know how to raise my boys since I don't understand them.

 

2. No, he has no idea. The only reason I have mentioned it here is because it is not the sort of thing I would mention to those close to me in real life.

I may be totally off base here, but it seems to me that some people's standards change, because of where they are. I think that some people could have the Playboy center fold of the century, and she could also be witty, have genius level intellegence, Martha Stewart's skills with the home, June Clever's crazy mother skills, and a couple Nobel Peace Prizes and they would complain because she doesn't dance well :glare:

 

The more I read this, the more a nagging part of me says, if you don't think you're good enough (or as good as he wants, or as good as he could do in an alternate universe where all men are pigs and all women worship them) then you'll cling that more tightly onto him. I was like this once, when I dated dh, and I did not even realize it. I never said that he wasn't enough, but I reminded him that I had done better before. I think on it now and it turns my stomach, but I had this bizarre twisted idea that making sure HE knew I had done "better" would make ME more appealing to him. I know, now, what a fool I was.

 

I wonder if he's feeling threatened or jealous? I wonder if he sits there and thinks about this young, fabulous wife of his (and he's probably watching a few marraiges disolving) and how much better SHE could do. I wonder if this isn't his way of kicking you in the face to keep you from seeing that, hey, you COULD do better. That's not the real issue though, is it? Because regardless of what you COULD get, you want what you have. He could definitely learn a number of lessons from you.

 

What concerns me is your son. He sounds like he may agree with his father already and he doesn't even have a wife to dump on.

 

The grass is always greener and all that rot. Here's the sich. The grass may be greener, but that doesn't make you smart for dumping gasolene all over your own yard.

I'm not the woman Wolf married. Heck, I'm not the woman I was three years ago! I've changed tremendously during our marriage...changed my heart to the good, physically to the bad.

 

The thing of it is, making the time to work on our marriage together, to ensure we're not strangers, growing apart.

 

I personally think 'growing apart' is code for 'we got too busy being individuals to put time into our marriage'. Growing apart, to me, would be able to be fixed in at least some of the cases, with some hard work and time.

 

I say this based on ppl I've known who divorced for 'growing apart'. The one cpl was still sleeping together and went to the court house for the divorce papers after getting out of bed! Say huh?

 

Marriage is not going to make a person 'happy'. It boils down to that person, that individual. You can't expect your spouse or marriage to make you happy. Everyone has a personal responsibility in that.

 

I think we've become a disposable society. The minute something bores us, or doesn't make us happy, we want something to replace it. If our marriage isn't magically delicious (sorry, couldn't resist) then its time to leave.

 

But what ever happened to working on it? Life isn't going to make you happy all the time, so how can another human being carry that burden?

 

I realize, in my marriage, that I can't make Wolf solely responsible for my happiness. That's not fair. At the same time, I accept that marriage isn't going to be all bells and whistles all the time. We're in reality, not sitcom. But I'll weather the storms with him, believing in all my heart, "...in good times and in bad, as long as you both shall live"

 

:iagree: I'm not the woman I was last week. Dh and I love each other and we expect each other to grow and change, and we support each other through all that.

[jujsky]

I know you didn't put an "other" category, but there should be one. I can't vote without one. If there is abuse in a relationship, if one partner comes out of the closet, if someone is making unhealthy choices (drinking, gambling, other addictions) and are not willing to get help, if there have been huge, huge lies (like you think you are marrying one person and you're really marrying another), and in some cases of infidelity, then no -- I don't think marriage is forever. If someone is just unhappy with their life at the time and they want a change, then yes -- marriage is forever. You suck it up and deal with it and make changes with your partner to strengthen your relationship. All I can think of is Eat, Pray, Love. I haven't read it & won't, but I know the premise from many people who have read it. You're unhappy so you dump your husband and run away? Sorry, that doesn't fly for me!

[PinkInTheBlue]

To be quite honest, I do look better in the pictures I post than in real life. I mean, I don't photoshop them or anything, but my husband is not the first man to tell me I'm not good enough looking for him. I had been used to it. I was best friends with a guy for five years who loved everything about me, but he couldn't make himself find me attractive enough. The sad thing is, because of a stroke, he is now legally blind. I just never realized my husband felt this way until a few months ago.

 

I didn't continue reading all the posts so I might have missed something added to this one but I have to disagree; strongly disagree. I HAVE seen you in person and find you look very much like your pictures. I promise with everything in me I'm not saying this to just be nice, but I believe you were and are a very pretty lady. I really just can't fathom that you would ever had have a friend or especially your husband say something this absurd!

 

Dawn, you are a beautiful person. I've seen it and know it.

[Renee in NC]

I may be totally off base here, but it seems to me that some people's standards change, because of where they are. I think that some people could have the Playboy center fold of the century, and she could also be witty, have genius level intellegence, Martha Stewart's skills with the home, June Clever's crazy mother skills, and a couple Nobel Peace Prizes and they would complain because she doesn't dance well :glare:

 

The more I read this, the more a nagging part of me says, if you don't think you're good enough (or as good as he wants, or as good as he could do in an alternate universe where all men are pigs and all women worship them) then you'll cling that more tightly onto him. I was like this once, when I dated dh, and I did not even realize it. I never said that he wasn't enough, but I reminded him that I had done better before. I think on it now and it turns my stomach, but I had this bizarre twisted idea that making sure HE knew I had done "better" would make ME more appealing to him. I know, now, what a fool I was.

 

I wonder if he's feeling threatened or jealous? I wonder if he sits there and thinks about this young, fabulous wife of his (and he's probably watching a few marraiges disolving) and how much better SHE could do. I wonder if this isn't his way of kicking you in the face to keep you from seeing that, hey, you COULD do better. That's not the real issue though, is it? Because regardless of what you COULD get, you want what you have. He could definitely learn a number of lessons from you.

 

What concerns me is your son. He sounds like he may agree with his father already and he doesn't even have a wife to dump on.

 

The grass is always greener and all that rot. Here's the sich. The grass may be greener, but that doesn't make you smart for dumping gasolene all over your own yard.

 

:iagree: I'm not the woman I was last week. Dh and I love each other and we expect each other to grow and change, and we support each other through all that.

 

:iagree: The first boyfriend sounds like an immature teen/young 20s kind of thing. My then teenage BIL said to me (the first time I ever met him), "You aren't really my brother's type - he always seemed to go for model types.":glare: My dh didn't marry me for my looks, however, he married me for my money!:lol::lol: (Jokes on him, huh?:tongue_smilie:)

 

I do think the issue is your dh's insecurities, especially as he ages. If he can make you feel that he is better than anything else you could ever have, then you won't leave him for a younger man.

[MelanieM]

Oh, Dawn. :grouphug: As others have said, you are truly lovely, inside and out. Your husband must be hurting within himself very deeply to say such hurtful things to you. I think you must be a saint to be able to still love and support him while he's being such a, um,... well, I'll not fill in those blanks.

 

One thing I do want to share is that whenever someone says something to me and I find that bothers me deeply, I have realized it is not because of what they've said, but because of what it mirrors of my own thoughts and feelings, or what stories I allow myself to tell about those comments. So I would gently suggest that you embrace your beauty in your own eyes -- truly own how lovely and wonderful you are -- and not let your husband's hurt seep in and reinforce a story you simply don't deserve to tell about yourself. You are wonderful, and the best person to tell you that is you. :grouphug::grouphug:

[katemary63]

Yes....and sometimes you just simply grow apart....and I don't think anything is wrong with that. I think everyone deserves to be happy....and if you are not happy with your mate....then move on.

 

.

 

Now this I totally disagree with. Simply growing apart is not a reason to divorce that I would ever agree with.

[lionfamily1999]

:iagree: The first boyfriend sounds like an immature teen/young 20s kind of thing. My then teenage BIL said to me (the first time I ever met him), "You aren't really my brother's type - he always seemed to go for model types.":glare: My dh didn't marry me for my looks, however, he married me for my money!:lol: (Jokes on him, huh?)

 

I do think the issue is your dh's insecurities, especially as he ages. If he can make you feel that he is better than anything else you could ever have, then you won't leave him for a younger man.

You put it much better than I did. When I get angry I forget word conversation abilities :lol:

Oh, Dawn. :grouphug: As others have said, you are truly lovely, inside and out. Your husband must be hurting within himself very deeply to say such hurtful things to you. I think you must be a saint to be able to still love and support him while he's being such a, um,... well, I'll not fill in those blanks.

 

One thing I do want to share is that whenever someone says something to me and I find that bothers me deeply, I have realized it is not because of what they've said, but because of what it mirrors of my own thoughts and feelings, or what stories I allow myself to tell about those comments. So I would gently suggest that you embrace your beauty in your own eyes -- truly own how lovely and wonderful you are -- and not let your husband's hurt seep in and reinforce a story you simply don't deserve to tell about yourself. You are wonderful, and the best person to tell you that is you. :grouphug::grouphug:

:iagree:

[katemary63]

 

My dh, on the other hand, is very envious that some guys are able to get the top of the ladder. He begrudges the fact that he could never get a cheerleader, for example. I don't understand that line of thinking, but I am trying to accept it as a man thing and move on.

 

Please don't "accept it as a man thing." It is not. It is a maturity issue. Please do accept your DH as he is (including this particular flaw). He is immature in this area. I'm sure he has many other wonderful qualities. But it has nothing to do with his being a man. My DH would be aghast at your saying that. (And would never have been attracted to a "cheerleader" anyway.)

[Audrey]

Thank you. No, it was said a few months ago when Aaron began looking for female companionship. He said Aaron has a lot to offer a woman, so he won't have to settle like he did. John always brags about my character, my intelligence, etc., so I asked for clarification. It was referring to my appearance. He said, "we don't plant ugly flowers, what's wrong with wanting a beautiful woman?"

 

I said, "I don't think you settled at all. I think I am quite a catch (I wasn't referring to merely the physical -- I just meant in general, I feel I have a lot to offer a person."

 

He replied, "Yeah, that's why no one wanted you. You were 25 and the only one that wanted you was a divorced 38 year old with a kid. I was mature enough to choose based on what's most important."

 

 

Some notes from my dh:

 

"Make sure she knows what's going on financially in the house."

"Be suspicious. Those are the words of a man looking for an excuse to do something unsavoury."

"Is she being abused in other ways besides this emotional abuse?"

"I hope you know that a real man doesn't say or do things like that to a woman. It's not normal and it's no where near loving."

 

And :grouphug: from both of us. You do not deserve to be treated like that. No one does.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Audrey

[HRAAB]

Some notes from my dh:

 

"Make sure she knows what's going on financially in the house."

"Be suspicious. Those are the words of a man looking for an excuse to do something unsavoury."

"Is she being abused in other ways besides this emotional abuse?"

"I hope you know that a real man doesn't say or do things like that to a woman. It's not normal and it's no where near loving."

 

It rather sounds to me like he is jealous of her. By putting his wife down, he feels better about himself. Midlife crisis? Those comments are about his own insecurities.