Jump to content

Menu

Should it be done just because they can?


ReidFamily
 Share

Recommended Posts

In reading a few various threads I'm starting to wonder if we are taking the right approach. I'd be interested in hearing from both sides no matter where you fall on the issue. I just reserved the book "Better Late Than Early" by Raymond S. Moore but haven't had a chance to read it yet.

 

Here is my question. My daughter has a always been a quick and easy learner. She picks things up very quickly and has been advanced in most academic considered areas for pretty much her entire life. She's always done things sooner than kids her age. She is however, emotionally and socially just like any other kid, just a quick learner.

 

Because she's perfectly capable of doing it we started first grade this year. It hasn't been an issue. She is learning the material and doing fine. We had to tweak the way we were approaching Story of the World and switch it to a read-a-loud for "fun" rather than doing any review questions or narrations with it and we are also using the activity guide and further reading on our own, etc. But other than stopping with the review questions we haven't had any issues.

 

She sometimes dislikes giving some of her time to school (meaning she'd rather run off and go play Barbies sometimes) but once we start she's fine and we don't have any big battles or anything like that.

 

With that being said, just because she is capable of doing all of this first grade work should we be? Would our time be better spent waiting until next year and focusing on other things now?

 

My daughter turns 6 on Christmas Eve and would have started Kindergarten this year if she were in Public School. We decided on 1st grade because she's met every end of year item that would be expected from a Kindergartner simply by living our regular life. Up until this year we've never done any type of curriculum.

 

So, from those who have been down this road or for those that just have an opinion I am all ears. :bigear:

 

ETA: Haven't had a chance to read all the responses yet, working on it, but wanted to add that my daughter is only told that she is in Kindergarten. She has no idea she is doing first grade work. I didn't want that kind of pressure on her and I also don't want her to feel bad if her learning curve slows and she eventually is doing work that is grade level. Anyway, as far as she knows she in Kindergarten and that is what she tells people (family, friends, strangers) that ask.

Edited by ReidFamily
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand that she wants to go play sometimes, but over all--does she *like* to sit w/ you & do the work? Does she get some kind of pride or joy from it? I tend to think that it's harder on a kid who gets some pleasure from school to be told NO than the other way around. Whether it's attention from you or curiosity or whatever, I think if she wants to learn, it's wonderful to gently feed that enthusiasm. And fwiw, I was that kid, & I have that kid.

 

Otoh, something I realized after starting my 5yo on 1st g work--a couple of yrs after--is that just because he's doing 1st g work doesn't mean we have to call it that. Calling it that just means he leaves home a yr sooner. And while he can *always* be let go a yr sooner if that's appropriate, it's much harder to tell a teenager, "You know. You don't really seem so much ready for the real world. Why don't you hang around here for another yr?" :lol:

 

So while we moved fwd w/ our curric, we called 2 yrs 3rd g--3rd A & B, lol. And ds had some say in it. Luckily, he was still young enough that pointing out the fact that he'd get to stay at home under my tutelage for another yr swayed him. :lol:

 

Now? The work level is so not an issue. And my very b&w boy doesn't have so much trouble figuring out what grade to tell people he's in.

 

In conclusion, as long as it's not an unreasonable struggle, as long as it's fun, do it. Don't be afraid to drop it, though, or switch things around. I say this as one who waited nearly 20 yrs to get to begin hs'ing & could not have been convinced to drop anything if my life had depended on it. ;) Homeschooling is brilliantly fun, but it gets better as the yrs go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried to spend age-appropriate amounts of time on ability-appropriate education. If one of my sons was capable of third grade maths in first grade, then that's what he did. I did not expect him to spend more time on it, however, than a first grader should. This balance seemed to work - offering challenge without pushing.

 

Laura

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wish I could find either the article I read or the book I purchased but there is evidence that learning outside of academics is actually more important for early brain development than academic learning. I will look for the links. But spending your time reading interesting books, imaging together, playing pretend, playing games, etc. is, in my opinion, much more valuable at her age than first grade academic work. If a child is desiring to or driven to learn academic stuff of course you do but I don't get the feeling from your post that's what is happening. I think you were saying she can learn all this--she's good at it--so should you?

 

My answer is that the barbies is probably more valuable in all the important things including intellectual development at her age. Learning academic stuff is a lower skill than pretend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried to spend age-appropriate amounts of time on ability-appropriate education. If one of my sons was capable of third grade maths in first grade, then that's what he did. I did not expect him to spend more time on it, however, than a first grader should. This balance seemed to work - offering challenge without pushing.

 

Laura

 

:iagree: This is my approach as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She has 2 brothers who are 14 months older than her and from birth her only goal was to keep up with them. And she always has. She took her PSATs as a junior this year. She is taking her first online dual credit science class. She will graduate next year at 16 and turn 17 one month after she starts college (and yes, she will be going away for college and, I think, will be ready for it.) I have no regrets. I don't think she was really pushed at all until high school, and I think that was only because those hormones just start making you lazy and unmotivated for a few years. You're talking about a child who is only a few months younger than the school cut off date. I don't see what the big deal is at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my ongoing stuggle to chose between homeschooling and afterschooling, this is a major issue for me--can you get them too far ahead? Your daughter sounds a lot like my son--just a regular kid who still plays with army men and gets rowdy from time to time, but he is very sharp and so far has not failed to learn anything that has been presented to him. He never gets very oppositional, but I will get an "Aw Mom" thing from time to time when we do our extra lessons. I keep the subject matter interesting to him and that helps a lot. I try to expand on what they are doing at school and fill in any blanks that I feel exist. I'm getting ready to start MTC because he is a math and science guy and isn't all that into reading/language arts. He gets it, he's just not that into it. Each child is different, and I think the very best you can do is follow your daughters lead. Some days she may be all for it, and some days you may have to slow down and just do a "fun" activity. I think it has to be viewed as a fun thing at these early ages. Once they are older, they will have to be taught that there are some tasks we have to complete, even though they aren't our very favorite things to do. But the love of learning has to be instilled early.

 

Wow, I doubt if I helped you at all. This parenting thing isn't for sissies, is it? Maybe it is best to not "label" the work as first grade, second grade, or whatever. Just go with what she can do to keep her engaged and challenged. Good luck!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She has 2 brothers who are 14 months older than her and from birth her only goal was to keep up with them. And she always has. She took her PSATs as a junior this year. She is taking her first online dual credit science class. She will graduate next year at 16 and turn 17 one month after she starts college (and yes, she will be going away for college and, I think, will be ready for it.) I have no regrets. I don't think she was really pushed at all until high school, and I think that was only because those hormones just start making you lazy and unmotivated for a few years. You're talking about a child who is only a few months younger than the school cut off date. I don't see what the big deal is at all.

 

Just b/c you don't see it as a big deal does not mean that other families have the same perspective. Our philosophy is quite different and it does impact decisions. Those decisions go from preschool through to graduation.

 

We are a minimal academics family until 3rd grade (essentially none until K and then just the 3 Rs for primary grades). The kids work at their skill level for approx the same # of hrs of their "age" grade level. We do not believe in early graduation so they just keep working ahead at whatever level they are until they finish 12th grade.

 

Does everyone else need to embrace that philosophy? Absolutely not. But, for our family, following this approach is a big deal to us. (which ultimately means it has a major impact on our children) I have a 14 yos that is academically functioning on a jr level. (Actually, his understanding in math and science probably exceeds the understanding of most jrs and srs. His ACT scores in math last yr as an 8th grader were higher than his older brother's that is an honors sr chemical engineering student were when he was a high school sr) However, younger ds won't be graduating from our homeschool until he is 18.

 

Different families have different values and we all have to figure out where we come out on the issues. And that can be a big deal when you are sorting it out for yourself. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Otoh, something I realized after starting my 5yo on 1st g work--a couple of yrs after--is that just because he's doing 1st g work doesn't mean we have to call it that. Calling it that just means he leaves home a yr sooner. And while he can *always* be let go a yr sooner if that's appropriate, it's much harder to tell a teenager, "You know. You don't really seem so much ready for the real world. Why don't you hang around here for another yr?" :lol:

 

 

:iagree:so strongly with this.

 

Another point in the same vein, is don't fall into the trap of thinking they have to continue to work above grade level. I did that with my dd. I was so frustrated with her not getting first grade math at one point last year. One day I realized, duh, she's not a first grader. She is actually a K'er who is working on the same math as most kids a year older than her. I should be thrilled - not disappointed.

 

Having said that, the #1 reason I chose to hs is to meet my kids where they are at. I want to challenge them no matter what that means. I 100% agree with the pp's about giving them ability appropriate work in age appropriate doses of time. At her age I would think that means school shouldn't take much more than 1 hour each day. If you do that she will still have plenty of time for Barbies.;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would our time be better spent waiting until next year and focusing on other things now?

 

Maybe.

 

Our dc, as determined by outside testing, have the capabilities to be very, very advanced. Dh and I spent a long time deciding how to handle this. We decided that instead of accelerating them as much as possible, we would focus on diversifying their interests. So being academically blessed means that they can get the usual workload done much more quickly intensely, and then have time to go deeper into some areas, study music and art, find projects of their own, volunteer, etc. They still are somewhat accelerated, our second dd the most, because she needs it. But they are no where near where they would be if we had just kept going straight forward all these years.

 

I still twinge and worry that we have made the wrong choice when I talk to others with dc who are many, many grades ahead. It is hard to be sure we have made the right decision. Ultimately, they may look back and ask why we didn't push them a bit harder. (I doubt it, but you never know.)

 

Back to your question: I think you are fine to keep going, as long as you are prepared to slow down or modify as needed. It is when parents get caught up in having their dc be "ahead" and don't put the child ahead of their pride in that that you see issues. Keep in mind, too, that it's not a smooth, upward progression of skills. A child who is ahead now may be behind at another time, or may get stuck at a spot.

 

I personally spent the early years focusiing on gathering as many outside experiences as possible - books, field trips, classes - because that life experience is very important to later comprehension and understanding. With a December birthday and a girl, it's not much to accelerate one year; in some school districts, she could have almost been a first grader, even. After that, I would start looking for more broad experiences, instead of accelerating more and more, if she does continue to be advanced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I call my children the grade they would be in if in our PS system. We work on what they need academically.

 

I tried to spend age-appropriate amounts of time on ability-appropriate education. If one of my sons was capable of third grade maths in first grade, then that's what he did. I did not expect him to spend more time on it, however, than a first grader should. This balance seemed to work - offering challenge without pushing.

 

Laura

 

:iagree:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I went that route and regreted it. If I had it to do all over again with my oldest, I would spend the K year doing the alphabet, numbers and simple stuff while spending the bulk of our time in play, arts & crafts, and just enjoying that magical time together.

 

I would take it slow and easy, spending more time on her emotional development than academics at this age. There is plenty of time for academics later. This is the time to build connections and character with your child. To do those things that you will never have time for again:

 

bake together

sing together

dance together

cuddle

read her a book that she likes, read silly books, read fun books

play in the sand, play in the water

let her run and play

create together--watercolor, crayons, paper & scissors, make a mess

take a walk in the park

watch the ants go by, the rabbits, the birds, etc.

enjoy the sunshine, snow, rain, wind, etc.

fly a kite, climb a tree, swing on the swings, etc.

 

They grow up fast, take your time and let her play. Enjoy these days as they are fleeting.:001_smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If she's able to do this, she enjoys doing this, and it is not a day-to-day battle, then it sounds great to me :D

 

I'm assuming you don't have her chained to the table 16 hours a day and allow her to spend some time with her Barbies, of course ;)

 

We're considering doing this next year with my youngest. He wants to do work, because his older siblings do work, so I started him on K work figuring we could make it last for two years. It doesn't look like it will last for two years :p I'm not worried about permanently scarring his psychy with it, after all, kids across the globe are attending school by five.

 

She'll be fine, as long as it doesn't become a crying, screaming, struggle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried to spend age-appropriate amounts of time on ability-appropriate education. If one of my sons was capable of third grade maths in first grade, then that's what he did. I did not expect him to spend more time on it, however, than a first grader should. This balance seemed to work - offering challenge without pushing.

 

Laura

 

This is what we do too. I don't see any reason to hold my ds back academically but he's still a 6yo 1st grader and treat him as such. He is an academic little guy and likes schoolwork but not when compared with legos. The same rules apply to my 4yo. He doesn't do any formal work because he's 4 even though he's already performing between K and 2nd grade level in the 3Rs. He'll start at the appropriate levels next year doing K amount of work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a 4th grader and a 1st grader (summer birthday - so 6 in the summer). They don't do anything academic at grade level. However, the *AMOUNT* of work and focus I require is very age appropriate. We also focus on some non-academics - lots of social time, they do circus classes which push them a different way beyond their comfort level (they both tend to be cautious). They also both do music lessons. I allow plenty of time for free learning - reading, building, exploring, etc in almost an unschooling way. They both do well with this. My daughter loves history and world cultures. My 4th grader taught himself to computer program and reads a couple hours a day. I don't know how often I read something or talk about something and he already can tell me all about it. Yesterday I was reading about cat-eye nebula and he had quite a bit more information than the book I was reading!

 

We try to "go deep". We don't race through curriculum. We choose rigorous (but not lots of "busy work") curriculum and go wide from there with other books, outings, etc. We *LOVE* field trips!

 

I think if your child is generally happy, learning, and challenged somewhere regularly, you're doing just fine. I think the kids that push back week after week are the ones where you probably need to step back and re-evaulate the approach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We don't call our kids above grade level either. We call them 1st and 4th. I'm not interested in graduating them early unless we absolutely have to and I'm not ready to make that decision now! I'm guessing we'll be using local CC at high school level to fill some holes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I call my children the grade they would be in if in our PS system. We work on what they need academically.

 

:iagree:

Your daughter is not a 1st grader. She is a Kindergartner who is using 1st grade materials. Which is fine so long as you're challenging her rather than frustrating her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My approach is to set aside a certain amount of time per day for schoolwork, and to choose materials and approaches that are appropriate to age and ability. I am not interested in encouraging my child to move ahead just because she can, but I do want to develop the habit of school, and I don't want her to be bored.

 

We call it kindergarten, not first grade, even though the materials we use are sometimes meant for first grade. For example, we are finishing Math Mammoth Addition 1 today, and are partway through Place Value 1. For one thing, that's how it works in our state- you register based on your child's age. But I also think it's nice and low pressure. I don't care whether my kid finishes "first grade math" this year because she's in kindergarten. :)

 

We did skip history this year in favor of an integrated geography/science study of the world.

 

I definitely want her to have plenty of time to play, which is a major advantage of homeschooling. She would be spending far more time per day in school if she attended public school.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:iagree:

Your daughter is not a 1st grader. She is a Kindergartner who is using 1st grade materials. Which is fine so long as you're challenging her rather than frustrating her.

 

 

I agree as well.

My oldest ds has always done work above grade level - but we "kept" him in the same grade, same amount of class time, and just used different work.

I am also a bit of an educational minimalist until 3rd - I like the Waldorf approach in those early years....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't read all the posts, but my dd 7 is exactly the same. Our K cutoff date is 9/1 and her b-day is 9/25. EVERYTHING she has participated has been at cut-off date level. She started ballet early and was the most serious one there! Her teacher pronounced she would be in the company when she was 4.5 (this I though a bit ridiculous, but for the sake of showing her seriousness). She went to preschool early, etc. We held back her reading until 4.5 even when she was ready at 3. She is doing work at about 1.5 grades above, but I just say she is in 2nd grade. She will finish 3rd grade work when she is not yet 8.5-we go year round.

 

Often she wants to play or just do art all day and so I only require grammar, math, writing. These take about an hour. We read all day anyway as a part of our life. My kids talk about history during breakfast!

 

My take is this until 10, I'm only really concerned about the 3 R's anything else is gravy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have my kids work at their academic level but try to get it done in the amount of time a typical Ker or 3rd grader would. Of course the "typical" amount of time can vary widely for different people. I think if they are capable of doing the work, and have plenty of time to do other things (play with other kids, sports, lots of extra classes) then you are fine.

 

I think learning to do challenging work is important from a young age. Believe me, it is tempting to just forget all the work because my kids are so far ahead it would take several years to get "behind". But we are homeschooling exactly because I don't want that. We have time to learn extra languages, get solid on pre-algebra, work hard on writing, do extra science and history, and we think this is (most of the time) fun. Right now my older ds only has two mornings a week when we are home doing school, other days he is doing a nature program, drama class, and a fun math class with hands on projects. In the afternoons he has piano lessons, book club every other week, soccer two days a week, and a lot of playdates. But we still work in the time we have at home, though we will go more slowly than if we spent 5 hours a day on schoolwork.

 

In a few weeks many of those activities will end and we will do more school. But having the habit and expectation that we need to stretch our minds, have discipline to write even when we don't feel like it at first, keep practicing long division and fractions and decimals, and work with those tricky Latin declensions will pay off later.

 

I'm not really a believer in the better late than early camp. I worry more about having low expectations and not learning to do challenging things, which may speak more to my own childhood and background. I don't have any issue with those who wait or unschool the early years but for our family following more WTM expectations worked.

 

That is probably more than anyone wanted to know :tongue_smilie:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We always labeled our kids by whatever grade they would have been in if they'd been in public school. We simply had them work at whatever grade level they was appropriate for them, often several years above, as many others here have done.

 

My daughter in particular is a late November birthday. She just went off to college at almost 19, though academically she was ready years ago. She wanted to participate in the CTY talent search when she was in eighth grade & I was in the midst of dealing with the paperwork of her homeschooled brother's college applications. We let her take the SAT testing with the caveat that we had no time to help her get ready for it; it would all be for "fun"....then she surprised us by scoring the highest in our state that year. I mean scary high. We had a college that pursued her at that time and tried to offer her a scholarship to get her to drop high school and come immediately.

 

Like 8FilltheHeart, though, we just don't do that in our family. We looked at the college, but all of us felt that homeschooling offered so much more. My philosophy is that there is SO much to learn. If a child delights in learning, then why rush the process? Instead, we have combined academic acceleration (there are all kinds of challenges out there, whether you choose AP courses or otherwise) with plenty of outside activities, time for her art & dance, summer opportunities in her fields of interest, competitions and team experiences in those same fields, etc. My job became one of finding resources for her.

 

And time to grow up emotionally or socially is equally important to us. I'm so glad that her first experiences with boys (mild as they were, but still hard on her) were while she was still under our roof. She is so much more mature that way now that she's older.

 

I have absolutely no regrets looking back. I wouldn't have traded a minute of our time together. :)

 

~Kathy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried to spend age-appropriate amounts of time on ability-appropriate education. If one of my sons was capable of third grade maths in first grade, then that's what he did. I did not expect him to spend more time on it, however, than a first grader should. This balance seemed to work - offering challenge without pushing.

 

Laura

:iagree:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried to spend age-appropriate amounts of time on ability-appropriate education. If one of my sons was capable of third grade maths in first grade, then that's what he did. I did not expect him to spend more time on it, however, than a first grader should. This balance seemed to work - offering challenge without pushing.

 

Laura

 

:iagree:

Your daughter is not a 1st grader. She is a Kindergartner who is using 1st grade materials. Which is fine so long as you're challenging her rather than frustrating her.

 

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

 

My 4 yo loves to sit at the school table and demand that she do school. She's quite obnoxious about it. So I give her a pad and I use a highlighter to trace her some letters (which she knows) and ask her to copy them. But I don't call her k. She's just doing what she wants. And if she wants to go tug the dogs tail, then I wave her on her way. ;)

 

What I ahve found is that when I have had one struggle with something, it was more of a maturity issue rather than a 'smart enough' issue. I thought my now 11 yo would be horribly behind because he just had such problems spelling back when he was 8/9 but we went backward for about 6 months, recovered basics, and at the tail end of 9 he FLEW. Now --he's just amazing. I mean, amazing. I know it wasn't because he couldn't get it-it was because he needed that neural pathway to mature. :001_smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...I think if they are capable of doing the work, and have plenty of time to do other things (play with other kids, sports, lots of extra classes) then you are fine.

 

I think learning to do challenging work is important from a young age. Believe me, it is tempting to just forget all the work because my kids are so far ahead it would take several years to get "behind". But we are homeschooling exactly because I don't want that....

 

But having the habit and expectation that we need to stretch our minds, have discipline to write even when we don't feel like it at first, keep practicing long division and fractions and decimals, and work with those tricky Latin declensions will pay off later.

 

I'm not really a believer in the better late than early camp. I worry more about having low expectations and not learning to do challenging things, which may speak more to my own childhood and background.

 

:iagree: Academic challenge is important. Often with more advanced kids it is tricky to find the appropriate amount of challenge. But the road to underachievement is gradual. One of my favorite quotes:

 

When ... children are not given opportunities to work at their own level and pace, they settle for less than their best. They learn to slide by without stretching themselves. Patterns of underachievement are subtle and cumulative; they become harder to overcome with each year. Students who attain A’s on their papers with no effort are not prepared to take more challenging classes in high school and college. When work is too easy, self-confidence to attempt difficult tasks is steadily eroded. A student who has the potential to win a scholarship to an Ivy League university settles for a B average at a state college. (from http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/About_GDC/whytest.htm )

 

 

Right now we're afterschooling though we may be homeschooling - at least one of the kids - in the near future because of the very issue of learning at the appropriate level, which is hard to find even in my kids' relatively-individualized instruction in their Montessori school. Not tying their learning to traditional PS age/grade levels would be my primary reason to homeschool.

 

It's a delicate balance sometimes to know when to forge ahead, but I would not hold back a child who was pretty clearly ready to learn something. It's a whole lot easier to teach something when it's new and fresh to the child and they're eager for more.

 

As for what grade one calls it, that's a different question entirely, but please be aware that (if an advanced, homeschooled child later goes to elementary school) most schools are extremely reluctant to accelerate students one or more grade levels (usually for... wait for it.... social reasons). Once one gets to later middle school and high school, however, there might be more opportunity to take advanced classes, so this might be less of an issue. Also, note that the grade level that one tells the school district need not be the same grade level that one tells the child.

 

just my two cents :tongue_smilie:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With that being said, just because she is capable of doing all of this first grade work should we be? Would our time be better spent waiting until next year and focusing on other things now?

 

I haven't read all the posts, but just wanted to point out that you can meet a child where they are academically without registering them as or calling them another grade. Meeting a child where they are is different than pushing them ahead just because you can. It is allowing them to flourish in an instance where not doing so would be holding them back especially when keeping them at a lower level will cause frustration and/ or apathy.

 

FWIW- By TN cutoff my youngest is in second grade. I have him registered as/ call him a second grader. That doesn't mean that all the curriculum I purchase and use must be 2nd grade curriculum.

 

The only time reported grade will come into play is if we were to decide to let him graduate early. Then, the decision will not just be academic. It will also be an issue of emotional/ physical maturity and frankly finances (for example if we wait a year how much greater are the chances for scholarship dollars).

 

HTH-

Mandy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Ker was doing quite a bit of first grade work as well last year. I considered him K (for reasons like other posters have mentioned) and would only do an hour or so of school per day. I also kind of let him do some of the leading in regards to what work we did that day. Some days he would want to get through 3 or 4 reading lessons. Other days half of a math lesson, and he was done w/ math. I think that is fine w/ little Kers. Of course in 1st gr. this year I told him that he's not in K any more and in 1st he has to do what I say he has to do, lol! My main goal is keep him interested, challenged, working at HIS level- not what the book says, and not pushing him to where he dislikes school/gets burned out. It's easy to push the smart ones because you're trying to keep them challenged, but it's important to find that balance where you let them be little kids as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have kids who were not ready for Kindergarten even though they were kindergarten age, kids who were absolutely ready for K level work (and anything more difficult would have frustrated them) at 5 years old and now I have one who has already mastered all K level work at 4.5yo and is doing mostly first grade level stuff. I do not call my 4.5yo a first grader. She's a preschooler. She is doing first grade math because she told me she wanted "hard math" and "adding numbers math with no pictures". Those are hard to find in a preschool curriculum so I looked until I found it. It happened to be a first grade book and we do modify it a bit for her and only work as long as she is interested (though if she is losing interest mid-problem I do ask that she finish the one she's on, she usually does so without complaint). She asked me to make her a copywork sheet like the big kids using her current read aloud book. I found her a short sentence. She did it quickly and easily and told me next time to make it harder. So this morning I gave her a slightly longer sentence with bigger words. She did it in two sittings (we copied the first few words, then later did the rest of the sentence.) and was pleased with the level of difficulty. We are informally learning Japanese and doing memory work just by using our Japanese with her and by reciting our memory work piece together throughout the day. All this to say, even though she is doing first grade work, I do not have her "come sit and do school". We blend it into our day and I let her tell me when she wants to do seat work. This means that she does not do seat work everyday. But she makes up for it on the days that she wants to sit and worksheet after worksheet after worksheet. I would not be doing any of this with her, even if I knew she was plenty capable, if she were not interested.

 

One thing I took away from "Better Late Than Early" by the Moores was that they advocate no "formal schooling" before age 8 or 10, not no learning. They seem to assume that you will be talking and playing with your children and they will have a natural understanding of basic math and heard enough beautiful language through read alouds to quickly and easily pick up reading and writing. It has been a while since I read "Better Late than Early" but I don't recall them saying anywhere that a child who asks for a lesson in reading or writing or math should be denied. It was more just because a child is 6 years old doesn't mean they need to start spending time everyday doing lessons and it may even be harmful. Personally, I only partially agree with this. I think the way public and private schools, particularly ones that are very academics oriented from the beginning, can be harmful. However, I do believe most 6 year olds can give up 15 minutes here and 15 minutes there for basic math and phonics and the more organic and less textbooky, the better. If they obviously are struggling with the content, I have no problem waiting until they are a little older.

 

Ok this got way longer than I intended. :lol: Honestly, they are only 5 once. At age 5, they are usually still in the "anything to please mommy and daddy" stage. I find that this time is best spent instilling morals and values and good work ethic. These things get much more difficult to instill once they are older. If after these character lessons are taught, they still want to do academic things, great, if they just want to play, that's fine too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried to spend age-appropriate amounts of time on ability-appropriate education.

:iagree:

 

Different families have different values and we all have to figure out where we come out on the issues. And that can be a big deal when you are sorting it out for yourself. :D

 

This is so true. I come from a family where graduating early is very common, and it has definitely influenced our decisions concerning starting age for K and grade acceleration. What works for my dc and my family would not be the right fit for many other families.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for all of your advice and stories. It has been really helpful to read about different peoples experiences and perspectives.

 

I edited my original post but I just wanted to clarify that we don't call my daughter a First Grader either. She is a Kindergartner and that is what she tells everyone. I did that for the reasons other people have mentioned and also because I don't want any pressure on her to keep accelerating at the speed she has been. If we have a slower year or if she levels off for any other number of reasons I'd like to keep her "label" on par with what our local school districts would label her as.

 

I was just explaining that academic wise we have been following what is laid out for a first grader in the Well Trained Mind.

 

Reading through this I am considering backing down a little though because we are spending the amount of time on work that a first grader is expected to do rather than a Kindergartner. We're covering all the subjects outlined in WTM. I'm thinking I might slow it down a little. Just not sure. I think I will ask my daughter what she'd like to do. ;)

 

In response to a few things that were mentioned I do struggle with the challenge balance. I went to public school and I always got A's and school was never hard. I became an extreme procrastinator because of it. Often we would have projects that were supposed to take all semester, I remember one in Biology, specifically. Anyway, I stayed up all night the day before and skipped the first 3 classes before Biology and cranked out my semester long project. I got an A+. My best friend spent all semester on hers, worked hard and got a B-. Going to College was rough. It was the first time I had to actually work and I was in no way prepared for the amount of studying that was involved. I had never needed to study before that and it really was a rude awakening. I'm not sure how it happened really but it felt like everything I was supposed to be learning in Public School was stuff I all ready knew or was intuitive enough to figure out so I never learned how to study. Once I got to College and I didn't study and tried to use the same habits the results were awful.

 

All this to say that I agree there is a fine line to walk. I'd like to make sure that I teach my daughter appropriate habits for learning and applying herself where she is capable of being. However, I don't want to push her beyond the point where learning becomes a dread rather than something fascinating, challenging and most of the time fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If she is capable of first grade work I would give it to her. Challenge is important. I would call her a Kindergartener though. To me grade = age. The work done may be a totally different grade level than my child's age.

 

 

I think our approach to education is a little different than some others. We typically spend as much time on school as children who go to public school minus the homework hours. It doesn't take long to cover the basics so we go deep and wide covering lots of topics and using lots of hands-on activities. Unschooling is a big part of our philosophy too. We totally unschool through preschool and utilize a lifestyle of learning once the child is Kindergarten age. So while one day a child may run off and play Legos when school is "done," it is also common for a child to run off and pursue independent studies on a topic of interest. They will graduate at age 18. There is no shortage of things to learn about if they complete typical high school work early.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes. This is a lot how I'd like our day/school to function. When we are not actively covering our "subjects" I'm encouraging us to continue learning, exploring, creating, etc.

 

I'm trying to find a balance between classically educating and interest driven education.

 

If she is capable of first grade work I would give it to her. Challenge is important. I would call her a Kindergartener though. To me grade = age. The work done may be a totally different grade level than my child's age.

 

 

I think our approach to education is a little different than some others. We typically spend as much time on school as children who go to public school minus the homework hours. It doesn't take long to cover the basics so we go deep and wide covering lots of topics and using lots of hands-on activities. Unschooling is a big part of our philosophy too. We totally unschool through preschool and utilize a lifestyle of learning once the child is Kindergarten age. So while one day a child may run off and play Legos when school is "done," it is also common for a child to run off and pursue independent studies on a topic of interest. They will graduate at age 18. There is no shortage of things to learn about if they complete typical high school work early.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's wise to call them the grade level that they would be in public school. But I would provide work and experiences that are appropriate to the child's individual developmental level, no matter whether they are on grade level, advanced, or even behind in some areas.

 

Secondly, you should know that many children appear to be advanced in the very early grades, and many of those students level off by the 3rd to 4th grade. Some remain advanced, but this is where you often see kids slow down a bit in their academic growth.

 

I would just say this. Don't let pride enter into your student's academic life. It's okay, of course, to feel good about accomplishments. But sometimes it can develop into sinful pride in that students, at worst, belittle others who are not as accomplished, or at least allows them to elevate themselves inwardly. Either way, if left unchecked it can harm a student's overall character and social development.

 

Just something to think about - I have four students...two are gifted, two have learning disabilities. You can probably imagine some of the things we have encountered. :tongue_smilie:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't read any of the replies, but here is my take. If she can do 1st grade level work, let her. But....if you see her starting to get overwhelmed stop for the day. She may be able to do the work, but it might be too much work time wise for her maturity level. KWIM? Normally, with each grade level you increase the amount of work a child is required to do. Have her do 1st grade work, just k amount of time. That might mean doing 3/4 of a lesson a day instead of a full lesson or modifying the lesson to have less work. Just make sure if you modify the amount of work, she is not missing learning any key elements.

 

I'm going to guess if you tried to do k work with her she will be bored. You don't want boredom. You want appropriate level and appropriate amount. Tweak, tweak, tweak!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried to spend age-appropriate amounts of time on ability-appropriate education. If one of my sons was capable of third grade maths in first grade, then that's what he did. I did not expect him to spend more time on it, however, than a first grader should. This balance seemed to work - offering challenge without pushing.

 

Laura

:iagree: I'd also watch for glazing of the eyes--sometimes it's time to move on sooner than others.

You're talking about a child who is only a few months younger than the school cut off date. I don't see what the big deal is at all.

 

Whether or not it's a big dea depends on various factors, such as on the maturity of the child and what your final plans are. For some dc, being a few months shy of the cut off means they are not ready to go to college yet once the graduate. For others who are more mature, it's no big deal. Not everyone matures at the same age. If a dc is motivated to keep up with older siblings, I think it's great to allow them as long as they are able to handle it

 

My main opinion on this is that each parent needs to take the time to think through what will be best for their dc and to be ready to re-evaluate whenever necessary.

 

 

Just b/c you don't see it as a big deal does not mean that other families have the same perspective. Our philosophy is quite different and it does impact decisions. Those decisions go from preschool through to graduation.

 

We are a minimal academics family until 3rd grade (essentially none until K and then just the 3 Rs for primary grades). The kids work at their skill level for approx the same # of hrs of their "age" grade level. We do not believe in early graduation so they just keep working ahead at whatever level they are until they finish 12th grade.

 

Does everyone else need to embrace that philosophy? Absolutely not.:D

 

We are also a minimal academics family until grade 3/4, but that would have been much different for my first had she been at home and interested in more subjects. My dc are capable of doing more academically, but there was no interest in some of the subjects I though could wait, such as history & science (that varied with the dc.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you. This is really excellent to think about and continually ponder on. I try to make sure this doesn't become "about me" because this is exactly what I don't want.

 

I will say it is easier with her in some ways because it is obvious that she is doing it all. Especially before we started "school" everything she learned she had learned passively and almost automatically with no effort on my part except making the information available. Now that we are doing more schooling and I am choosing curriculum and putting so much thought into what we are doing I think that your advice is very important. Once we become really invested it is easier to take more credit. I think that also goes both ways. It is easier to take credit for the positive outcomes and also take on too much guilt when things aren't working out. From my own experience if someone needs to or wants to learn something it really doesn't matter what way it is presented or if it is readily available, it will be sought out, dug into and absorbed.

 

I had a pretty awful public school education now that I look back and see all the gaps in my own education. But as an adult I have always been able to find and learn the things that were missing (at least the ones I'm aware of, lol) or things I become passionate about. Learning doesn't stop when they leave our homes and that, I think, is what I'm going to have to repeat to myself on a continual basis when I worry too much about doing things "right".

 

 

Secondly, you should know that many children appear to be advanced in the very early grades, and many of those students level off by the 3rd to 4th grade. Some remain advanced, but this is where you often see kids slow down a bit in their academic growth.

 

I would just say this. Don't let pride enter into your student's academic life. It's okay, of course, to feel good about accomplishments. But sometimes it can develop into sinful pride in that students, at worst, belittle others who are not as accomplished, or at least allows them to elevate themselves inwardly. Either way, if left unchecked it can harm a student's overall character and social development.

 

Just something to think about - I have four students...two are gifted, two have learning disabilities. You can probably imagine some of the things we have encountered. :tongue_smilie:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm in the "formal academics at 6 years old" camp... ... unless the child specifically asks for them before, with those puppy-dog eyes. Both of my daughters wouldn't leave me alone when they were 4-5 years old and they kept on messing up with our books, so obviously I kept them busy with something, but actually, had they not asked, I would have gone quite minimalistic in K-1st with average and above-average children. 2nd grade on, flesh it out bit by bit, abilities-wise, but keeping in mind their age and, especially, emotional maturity. They may be incredibly smart, but they're still just big-size toddlers regarding some issues, avoid frustration - especially with above-average children. Basically, if she wants the work herself, I'd let her do it, without limitations, as much and as often as she wants, but I'd keep my set expectations on a grade level. That's, in a bit altered form, what I do with my kids: they can "go less intense" if they wish. Not go BACK, if they're already advanced, but back to the age-appropriate intensity of dealing with the subjects, if for whatever reasons they choose so. That way they keep control over some of it, but you demand age-appropriate time/energy spent on it, which on the long run WILL mean covering more or going more quickly anyway, with above-average kids. Long story put short, don't sweat the small stuff, early grades are still small stuff and at 5, playing is more important than working several grades above if she's reluctant. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't challenge her, though, but don't overchallenge her "just because she can". When she's a bit older, you can talk openly about these things and decide together what's appropriate. (Of course, it also depends what do you consider K, 1st grade or 2nd grade work; I come from a different system so I suppose you WOULD label my 1st grade as 2nd-3rd already, etc. I don't know exactly what type of challenge you're posing to her, maybe it's completely reasonable, only advanced compared to substandard PS standards.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm one of those who mentally opted out of any engagement in school beginning in kindergarten because elementary school was sooooo boring. There was always the fun supplemental stuff that teachers gave me, but it was just that--supplemental. I could build pyramids, models of the solar system, and 3-D relief maps of my favorite country with the best of them, but it was mostly just fluffy bunny time wasting. I went broad but never deep enough to work hard. Luckily for me, we moved to Norway for a few years and I had the challenge of learning the local language in the 8th and 9th grade.

 

Still, my tolerance for hard work was extremely challenged when I got to college. After a lifetime of never having to really think, suddenly being in the deep end of a competitive university almost swamped me. I had become used to laziness--not because I didn't do well in school, I did, but because I didn't ever have to work hard to do so. When I ended up surrounded by peers who were just as smart as I was, it was overwhelming.

 

My dh has a similar history. He was a slacker in high school who got into college on really high test scores. And struggled because it takes work to think. Self discipline came hard to him because it was all so easy until that point.

 

Maybe some of us need some pushing. I sure wish someone had taken me by the hand and pushed me in math, in language, in science. Moving at your own pace sometimes requires someone to walk next to you. Otherwise those of us with (*ahem*) naturally lazy constitutions just slow down and end up falling far short of our goals. One of the things I love about homeschooling my kids is knowing them well enough to know when they are truly engaged with learning. I'm NOT a "drill and kill" type, but I know that the love of learning can be just as easily squelched by moving at a snail's pace as by running to keep up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe some of us need some pushing. I sure wish someone had taken me by the hand and pushed me in math, in language, in science. Moving at your own pace sometimes requires someone to walk next to you. Otherwise those of us with (*ahem*) naturally lazy constitutions just slow down and end up falling far short of our goals. One of the things I love about homeschooling my kids is knowing them well enough to know when they are truly engaged with learning. I'm NOT a "drill and kill" type, but I know that the love of learning can be just as easily squelched by moving at a snail's pace as by running to keep up.

 

I agree with this. In traditional schools, a kid that is bored with the level of work will usually either get into trouble (my DH) or coast through school never having to work (me). Thankfully, in high school, I *did* have to work (I had excellent teachers and plenty of AP classes), and I had no problem in college.

 

One of the big reasons I'm going to homeschool my son next year is because he's not being challenged at school. He went to K last year already knowing almost everything they learn in K, but his writing wasn't good enough to go on to first grade, and the maturity wasn't there anyway (he's young for his grade and is only prior to the cutoff date because he was born early). This year, he's in first grade, and again... he's ready for mostly second grade work except for writing, plus he needs the first grade phonics work to help his spelling and thus gain confidence in writing (he learned to read on his own and didn't really get the phonics instruction at that time). Last year, he had behavior issues the first semester, while they were learning letters and numbers. This year is much better, especially since the teacher has pulled aside the kids that are ready for second grade work, and she's been giving them higher level reading assignments and second grade math. Still, it's just a little bit, and he's still having to do the stuff he already knows, and thus he's learning how to coast through school. He gets a 100 on every single test (except the one math test where he just forgot to do a problem :glare:). I know that if I continued to keep him in this school setting long term, he'd never learn to work. And that attitude is filtering through to home too - not doing chores appropriately, etc. He's already becoming lazy, and I am trying to turn that around. I know that giving him ability-appropriate work will help immensely, and I don't think he'd learn to work if I just stopped requiring work for another 2-3 years.

 

So I don't think you need to push a 5 year old to do first grade work, but I do think they need to be sufficiently challenged, yet expected to do what they are capable of doing maturity wise (ie, I wouldn't expect a 5 year old to do 2 hours of seat work even if they were ready to do 2nd grade level academics).

 

Looking at my second son, I'm pretty sure he'll be ready for K level work before he's supposed to start K (November birthday, so he has 2 years before he's supposed to be K). I won't be surprised if he's reading in the next 6 months and ready to do addition/subtraction by this time next year. Whenever I do "school" with him, I make it age-appropriate. My plan, should he do things early as I suspect he will, is to continue to label him what he would be in ps. If he gets ahead by a year, that's fine! Maybe in high school, he'll just have an extra year to do dual enrollment and get some more basic college courses out of the way. I know I really appreciated having several college credits from AP classes when I went to college.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In reading a few various threads I'm starting to wonder if we are taking the right approach. I'd be interested in hearing from both sides no matter where you fall on the issue. I just reserved the book "Better Late Than Early" by Raymond S. Moore but haven't had a chance to read it yet.

 

Here is my question. My daughter has a always been a quick and easy learner. She picks things up very quickly and has been advanced in most academic considered areas for pretty much her entire life. She's always done things sooner than kids her age. She is however, emotionally and socially just like any other kid, just a quick learner.

 

Because she's perfectly capable of doing it we started first grade this year. It hasn't been an issue. She is learning the material and doing fine. We had to tweak the way we were approaching Story of the World and switch it to a read-a-loud for "fun" rather than doing any review questions or narrations with it and we are also using the activity guide and further reading on our own, etc. But other than stopping with the review questions we haven't had any issues.

 

She sometimes dislikes giving some of her time to school (meaning she'd rather run off and go play Barbies sometimes) but once we start she's fine and we don't have any big battles or anything like that.

 

With that being said, just because she is capable of doing all of this first grade work should we be? Would our time be better spent waiting until next year and focusing on other things now?

 

My daughter turns 6 on Christmas Eve and would have started Kindergarten this year if she were in Public School. We decided on 1st grade because she's met every end of year item that would be expected from a Kindergartner simply by living our regular life. Up until this year we've never done any type of curriculum.

 

So, from those who have been down this road or for those that just have an opinion I am all ears. :bigear:

 

ETA: Haven't had a chance to read all the responses yet, working on it, but wanted to add that my daughter is only told that she is in Kindergarten. She has no idea she is doing first grade work. I didn't want that kind of pressure on her and I also don't want her to feel bad if her learning curve slows and she eventually is doing work that is grade level. Anyway, as far as she knows she in Kindergarten and that is what she tells people (family, friends, strangers) that ask.

 

My daughter was/is exactly like this. I ended up letting her work on a 1st grade level, but we called it K and kept it as informal as possible. If she didn't want to do school I didn't force her. That meant that some days she'd finish 3 lessons and some days she did none at all. Currently we're in her 1st grade year and we're doing 2nd grade work for the most part. I'm assuming that, while she may be a quick starter, eventually she'll slow down and work more on grade level. My plan is to continue to let her work on her own academic level but not let her "skip" grades. I think it's wise to avoid the possibility of her feeling like she always needs to be a grade ahead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think what you are doing is just right. You are working with her at her level ( a little ahead) but not putting the pressure on her by calling her a grade level ahead. That is the route we chose also.

 

I call my kids what grade level they would be, but do the work that is appropriate for them. It does give you some wiggle room if you need it. It also keeps them with their age mates in outside activities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have not read all of the replies, but I wanted to offer you a hug and let you know I understand your situation. I have soon to be 7 children who are ALL OVER the board grade level wise. :)

 

My ds6 (just turned) is in K this year. My dd3 (will be 4 Nov 21) is also in K this year. She is ahead of him in "academic" work.

 

I believe in delayed academics, but there is NO delaying her. She is hungry to spell words independently and to write full pages of work.

 

For me, it is about approach. We do not say she is in K to her or to other people. (Besides on forums where I am speaking with hs moms/dads and it is understood) I do not push her. I do offer her opportunities to do academic stuff but I have no expectations of her to actually do it unless she wants. Same with my ds6.

 

I am careful to supply her lots of free time and goofy stuff too, so that she doesnt take it all quite so seriously.

 

Honestly, it scares me sometimes. I have never experienced this before.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My dd5 is Ker doing 1st grade level work too.

 

I have been pondering what to with her. I don't push her. I frequently ask her if she'd like to do more now or tomorrow. I let her set the pace, and many days I just let her play if she doesn't ask for school. I hesitate to interrupt her elaborate little tea parties she hosts for her dolls for a mommy-led school lesson.

 

She is one I could push and seriously accelerate, but I too am weighing *her* specific needs. I think I need to do more, and do it more consistently with her...but without cutting into her childhood play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have kids who were not ready for Kindergarten even though they were kindergarten age, kids who were absolutely ready for K level work (and anything more difficult would have frustrated them) at 5 years old and now I have one who has already mastered all K level work at 4.5yo and is doing mostly first grade level stuff. I do not call my 4.5yo a first grader. She's a preschooler. She is doing first grade math because she told me she wanted "hard math" and "adding numbers math with no pictures". Those are hard to find in a preschool curriculum so I looked until I found it. It happened to be a first grade book and we do modify it a bit for her and only work as long as she is interested (though if she is losing interest mid-problem I do ask that she finish the one she's on, she usually does so without complaint). She asked me to make her a copywork sheet like the big kids using her current read aloud book. I found her a short sentence. She did it quickly and easily and told me next time to make it harder. So this morning I gave her a slightly longer sentence with bigger words. She did it in two sittings (we copied the first few words, then later did the rest of the sentence.) and was pleased with the level of difficulty. We are informally learning Japanese and doing memory work just by using our Japanese with her and by reciting our memory work piece together throughout the day. All this to say, even though she is doing first grade work, I do not have her "come sit and do school". We blend it into our day and I let her tell me when she wants to do seat work. This means that she does not do seat work everyday. But she makes up for it on the days that she wants to sit and worksheet after worksheet after worksheet. I would not be doing any of this with her, even if I knew she was plenty capable, if she were not interested.

 

 

I think our daughters are TWINS! :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you. This is really excellent to think about and continually ponder on. I try to make sure this doesn't become "about me" because this is exactly what I don't want.

 

 

 

Not at all about you isn't any good either, remember. Kiddo isn't in a team of one.

 

I started doing sit down "school" time a few months before dd turned 3. (That was only drawing, painting and encouraging jigsaw puzzles, but that's pretty heavy stuff for a barely-verbal toddler :tongue_smilie:) She was happy enough to go along with it, or I wouldn't have done it, but it was GREAT for me. And because it was great for me, it became even better for her. She cottoned on very quickly that "school" meant she was getting Mamma time and small brother was not :) I was a much better mother to her when we began interacting in that way. Now she's a crazy 3 1/2 year old who regularly wants to put in 8 hour days on her jigsaw puzzles :001_huh: I'm sure that workaholic nature will dissolve when she's doing school aged school.

 

So, anyway, I think if you also feel you're a better Mamma when interacting with your kiddo this way and she is happy to go along with it, no one is being damaged so you can keep chugging along. If you're watching, you'll notice when you need to back off. Mine lets me know by getting up and running out of the room :D

 

Rosie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm one of those who mentally opted out of any engagement in school beginning in kindergarten because elementary school was sooooo boring. There was always the fun supplemental stuff that teachers gave me, but it was just that--supplemental. I could build pyramids, models of the solar system, and 3-D relief maps of my favorite country with the best of them, but it was mostly just fluffy bunny time wasting. I went broad but never deep enough to work hard. Luckily for me, we moved to Norway for a few years and I had the challenge of learning the local language in the 8th and 9th grade.

 

Still, my tolerance for hard work was extremely challenged when I got to college. After a lifetime of never having to really think, suddenly being in the deep end of a competitive university almost swamped me. I had become used to laziness--not because I didn't do well in school, I did, but because I didn't ever have to work hard to do so. When I ended up surrounded by peers who were just as smart as I was, it was overwhelming.

 

My dh has a similar history. He was a slacker in high school who got into college on really high test scores. And struggled because it takes work to think. Self discipline came hard to him because it was all so easy until that point.

 

Maybe some of us need some pushing. I sure wish someone had taken me by the hand and pushed me in math, in language, in science. Moving at your own pace sometimes requires someone to walk next to you. Otherwise those of us with (*ahem*) naturally lazy constitutions just slow down and end up falling far short of our goals. One of the things I love about homeschooling my kids is knowing them well enough to know when they are truly engaged with learning. I'm NOT a "drill and kill" type, but I know that the love of learning can be just as easily squelched by moving at a snail's pace as by running to keep up.

:iagree::iagree::iagree: I didn't learn how to study or work at school until I was in university. I paid the price grade wise, because I was also unable to handle the stress of working for straight A's because I'd coasted through school and didn't even do all of my high school work. There's a balance here that Kay has managed to hit in her last paragraph.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...